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[Pictured: Spotted Salamander crossing the road.]

This is the fifth and final discussion thread for Braiding Sweetgrass. Sweet!

You're getting Ellen's write up today because CJ is busy making YouTube video. Video specific video foreshadowing watch out. There's a lot of screaming going into The Process; let's not ask.

My (Ellen's! But we won't do third person) overall feeling about Braiding Sweetgrass, as a book, is exasperated. I feel its been ill served by its editing process, a lot of things that should be one essay were split into several, and major themes were mis-heavy-hand-led. Obviously there was similar messaging across every section, but the rhythm and pace of each section was also unfortunately monotone. Critiquing the book for being repetitive is to miss the nuance of each plant and individual life that Kimmer holds to the sun so carefully, but the momentum of those precise, specific, examples, ultimately led to what felt like the same beats again and again.

However!

There are quite a few things I've loved. Kimmer will throw out the occasional offhanded line that makes me breathless, and want to reread the last paragraph to approach it properly again. Her immersive reverence for her topic truly never lets up, and if you read slowly and indulge in the sensory detail, Braiding Sweetgrass truly can become a 4D book. Her attention is ruthlessly inclusively kind.

Even the parts I mentioned disliking above, the sameness I felt, is turned into a virtue when you realise that what keeps cycling back into the work is Kimmer's urgency and adoration. There's never too much of that in art.

Last post CJ mentioned that the reading-by-chunk format we're bound to isn't presenting this book in its best light, and I agree with that too. I've recently reread some of my favourite essays (Learning the Grammar of Animacy, A Mother's Work, Witness to the Rain) just on their own because I recalled liking them, and making the active choice to submerse yourself in Kimmer's compassion, focus, and teachings, is definitely the way to do it. Circle back to your favourites. They're waiting for you.

Our town hall meeting will be on June 7th at 4pm EST. It's a Wednesday it's three days from now it'll be a Zoom meeting moderated like the last one it's going to be very fun. Block roughly two/three hours for it.

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Windigo Footprints

This was a good opener, but I did find it unmemorable. Some of the coolest parts of this book are when Kimmer is talking about Anishinaabe culture. I wished for more specificity than we got, but what details about the Windigo we got (such as originating at the time of the fur trade and reinforcing the taboo against cannibalism during winter famines), I enjoyed.

"[The Hunger Moon is] the time when an elder leaves to hunt and never returns. When sucking a bone is not enough, the infants follow. After too many days, desperation is the only soup." (304) Goes hard goes crazy.

"Our hotel was on a dirt street where dead dogs and prostitutes shared the corners under a perpetually orange sky lit by the flaring stacks." (306-7) This was such an abrupt departure from Kimmer's usual descriptions ahaha? Big change from flowing breathlessness about flower fields. Fun.

"In the old times, individuals who endangered the community by taking too much for themselves were first counseled, then ostracized, and if the greed continued, they were eventually banished." (307) Doesn't seem like such a bad system. The ostracization step seems to me the notable one.

The Sacred and the Superfund

Easily my favourite of today's bunch, especially the parts that read like a true crime article. The first half went crazy and I think the second half should have been culled at five paragraphs, but again, the first half went crazy.

CJ described this essay as "absolutely unacceptable," so, audiences are divided.

H E L P was excellent. Stormin' Norman name reveal was too.

Page 324 managed to get me with a rare written jumpscare, as I was absolutely prepared to interpret "From the lowest branch hung a human body. Next to it an empty noose swayed in the wind." as an actual suicide and its purpose in the essay as Kimmer's Aren't You Tired Of Being Nice? Don't You Want To Radically Escalate The Stakes Of Your Anecdote? moment.

"Philosopher Joanna Macy writes of the oblivion we manufacture for ourselves to keep from looking environmental problems straight in the eye." (326) This book was published in 2013, which I know because the public conversation about climate disaster has changed so radically that the portion of the essay which touched on it is already dated. It was a little heartbreaking to read actually.

"The new terrain is old land that has been pulverized, extracted, and poured out the end of a pipe. It is known as Solvay waste, after the Solvay Process Company that left it behind." (313) Old land that's been pulverized is one of those phrases that gave me shivers.

"The smooth shelf [of Solvay waste] is punctuated by cobble-sized rocks, ghostly beneath the water, unlike any rock you know." (315) Ghost story of a description. Love it.

Kimmer mentions open-put mines in a couple places, and although this is tangential to her point, it reminded me of this fascinating Charlie Macquarie article for Hypocrite Reader. Lots of pictures of open-pit mines inside. Also strong feelings about the Nevada punk scene.

People of Corn, People of Light

I did not enjoy Kimmer's editorial on the people of mud/wood/light/corn, but I liked the story. There were some fun phrases: "misused members of Creation," and "They were fed on corn liquor and oh those were good people.," both from page 342, standing out especially.

Her point that scientists and academic language, and the collegiate institutional way of publishing findings, exists to the detriment of the general public's involvement in high concept issues is completely valid. I'm of the position that sometimes you do really need to study something for multiple years and use complex technical language to examine it properly, but even though I feel this way I agree with Kimmer that current methodology skews too exclusive and even becomes gatekeepy in places. Balancing non-expert, casual interest information, with nuanced focused study not everyone can follow, has been an academic problem for decades if not longer.

"Plants are providers for the rest of the community and exemplify the virtue of generosity, always offering food. What if Western scientists saw plants as their teachers rather than their subjects? What if they told stories with that lens?" (347) Jesus sorry just (347) seeing that (347) why is this thought still happening to me on page three hundred and forty seven (347)!!!!!!!!

"But in many Indigenous ways of knowing, time is not a river, but a lake in which the past, the present, and the future exist. Creation, then, is an ongoing process and the story is not history alone-it is also prophecy." (343) Completely fantastic philosophical summary, presented soooo elegantly. This is highlighted in my book.

Collateral Damange

These salamanders are so cute. I will officially go on the record as pro-protecting cute salamanders from being blasted by cars going 150km a hour. Apart from that, not much to say about this one honestly!

I had to look up "fecund," and I present to you now: the capability of producing offspring or vegetation/characterized by or suggestive of fertility. Level this word at whomever you fancy. Use judiciously. 

"Gibbs confesses that sometimes, on rainy nights when he knows the salamanders are moving-and dying-he can't sleep. He puts on a raincoat and goes out to carry them across." (357) I love people.

Shkitagen: People of the Seventh Fire

It's also a point of pride in my family that we can light single match fires. I remember my mom teaching it to my sister and my dad at the same time, because she grew up back country camping and being in the wild when my dad didn't. The way that Kimmer talks about the hope of flame and the pride of putting firewood for later campers really spoke to me.

How many matches it took you to light a fire was also an easy way to establish hierarchy in the Girl Guides.

"The people of the Seventh Fire do not yet walk forward; rather, they are told to turn around and retrace the steps of the ones who brought us here." (367) This concept is timely to the internet era. During [MODERN DAY] I feel a lot of people are rediscovering the value of archival work, both preserving materials and ideas to be passed down, and wanting to track concepts to their original source. Again with Braiding Sweetgrass being published in 2013, Kimmer's point that young activists and climatologists are tracing the chain of harm back to where it started has only gotten more potent with time.

"[The Seventh Fire prophecy says] They must make a choice in their path to the future. One of the roads is soft and green with new grass. You could walk barefoot there. The other is scorched black, hard; the cinders would cut your feet." (368) The infamous Frost dilemma.

"[In making a handmade fire] So much depends on the body, each joint at the right angle, left arm wrapped around knee and braced at the shin, left leg bent, back stretched, shoulders locked, left forearm bearing down, right arm pushes and pulls in one smooth draw without breaking the plane of the upright shin. So much depends on the architecture, stability in three dimensions and fluidity in the fourth." (372) Lovely pretty paragraph. Kimmer so rarely focuses in on the human body that the exacting positionality of the line was exciting to me.

Defeating Windigo

This departure from form and dip into italicized prose was fun. Kimmer's writing style is similar but still different enough from when she's writing in her standard essay form that the story did actually feel like it had been passed down from someone who wasn't Kimmer, weighted by the other voices that told it first, even though it is original to her.

"'Inadequacy of economic means is the first principle of the world's wealthiest peoples.' The shortage is due not to how much material wealth there actually is, but to the way in which it is exchanged or circulated." (276) Hell yes comrade.

"You can't know reciprocity until you know the gift. He is helpless before their power." (379) These bars are great alone, but they shone after the context of that vile paragraph about "The carrion stench of his breath [mixing] with the reek of shit..." and so on. Traditional medicine brings high highs and low lows.

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Epilogue: Returning the Gift

It's good and right this book ends on a party.

The levity and joy imbued into the description of the minidewak is a great note to end on. I also enjoyed the glimpse into the practicality of organizing it: mentioning Walmart items on a tarp enhanced the romance of the ceremony for me, rather than killing it.

I'm also quite interested whenever we get some Potawatomi linguistic philosophy, such as "min" from gift/berries, and emingoyak VS English's "natural resources." Page 385-6 has a beautiful Note on the Treatment of Indigenous Languages that I liked more than some of these essays. ("With respect for speakers and teachers with these different perspectives, I have tried to use the words in a way that they were originally given to me.")

"We dance in a circle, not a line." (381) We Patreon comment section in a circle too I know it looks like a line but you're imagining it.

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Once again the town hall is on June 7th at 4pm EST. CJ will be there this time but don't get used to it.

Book Club will of course continue. Our machinations spin into being ever more perfect tools and all that. If you're curious about what's coming next then you should join our town hall :3 hehe...

Thanks everyone for reading along with us! Please feel free to put your reflections on the whole book in addition to Burning Sweetgrass specifically, and as always, the threads never close the discussion never ends.

Get out there and grow grass!!!!

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Comments

BrEaNs

I wrote down a lot for this section. I think I really felt the culmination of the book's ideas/my own responses and I also was trying to take more active notes, so I ended with waaay too much material that I am still trying to cull and compress as I write out this sentence. Anyways: General Thoughts: - I’ve really liked this book and already miss it. It was frustrating at times, but I think it ended up radically changing much of how I view the world for the better. I hope I honor its gifts. - A big part of how I responded to this book, for better or worse, is as an expression of this tension I think Kimmerer and I feel due to doing science in a time where scientific thought is so poisonous. There’s something about intimately being familiar with all the power science has and all its potential while also recognizing its long held spiritual void. It’s a difficult task to reconcile the potential with the void. ZMM was a great perspective, but ultimately it was the reflections of a highly isolated white man who was born in 1928. Kimmerer came to this topic with greater warmth and groundedness. - I’m also reading Lila right now, and it is quite the whiplash to move from Kimmerer’s kind words and lived experience to Pirsig’s outsider perspective on Indians and general asshole vibe. Wendigo Footprints: “Perpetual growth is simply not compatible with natural law” - I talked about the 2nd law of thermodynamics in a previous post, but I feel moved to do so again after hearing Kimmerer’s words and that bizarre Harvard economist quote. The 2nd law says that some energy will be “lost” as heat and not used as work, meaning that we cannot have perpetual motion machines and thus not perpetual growth. I feel like entropy is a deep wound for capitalism that it still hasn’t gotten over. Instead, capitalism demands us to slur entropy as “disorder” -- to make entropy the enemy instead of acknowledging that the universe has reciprocity etched into its very fabric. The Sacred and the Superfund: - I found it morbidly amusing that Kimmerer kept introducing yet more chemical company successors throughout the chapter. Like, it really hammered home the lack of responsibility and sacredness (on the part of the companies) for me. When one falls down, another equally bad one arises to take its place, showing the lack of soul each individual company has somehow. - There’s something fascinating about human evil seeping into the land. Kimmerer talks about the effects of Solvay waste throughout this chapter and that brought to mind our treatment of nuclear waste. We create oodles of nuclear waste and are left to just bury it because it’s the only thing we can do. However, some people have thought ahead to the distant future where all current languages may have died off and thus no written sign will protect people from unleashing radiation from the ground. A solution that has been posed is to create fields of large spikes that communicate to everyone that they shouldn’t be here. In other words, our nuclear developments will lead to tracks of land becoming the stuff of nightmares. The land will be warped to accommodate our horrors. There’s something almost gothic about it. It reminds me of haunted house stories where the houses themselves warp in response to some evil force. “People do know the consequences of our collective damage…but they don’t stop. They get very sad, they get very quiet.” - There’s something about pure information that is so alienating. In the West, we are thought to think of ourselves as something like vessels for information -- fact-sponges that can absorb data and regurgitate it if tested. This conception of information receival maintains a subject-object divide that pervades all of Western thought. And so, simply receiving information about climate change does nothing, because we view ourselves as separate from nature and our very conception of gaining new knowledge maintains this separation. Without a sense of responsibility for/communion with the Earth, we have no room to grow. “I’ve sat on too many dissertation committees where students were ridiculed for describing the plants they’ve worked with for five years as beautiful. The word love is unlikely to make an appearance, but I know it is there.” - I talked about having to not be emotional in the part 3 post (I think I described it as killing a little part of myself lol). I don't know what else to say about this, but I liked the quote so here it is. People of Corn, People of Light: “The very facts of the world are a poem” “The practice of doing real science brought the questioner into an unparalleled intimacy with nature fraught with wonder and creativity as we try to comprehend the mysteries of the more-than-human world.” “I maintain that the destructive lens of the people of wood is not science itself, but the lens of the scientific worldview, the illusion of dominance and control, the separation of knowledge from responsibility” - A vague critique I have of the most attitudes towards science is that science is treated as an independent entity from the rest of the world. People reach towards science for answers to all questions without active engagement with the work itself. Even when people on the left critique science, it’s often either from the outside (without seeking a positive version of science) or from active participation within the systems of science (complicity). I feel like there needs to be more stuff that recognizes the act of listening to the world as radical and begins the work of dissolving Western science in favor of a new science (instead of just abstaining from science). Defeating Wendigo: - The image of reconciling with Wendigo brought to mind some thoughts about cancel culture for me. There is this paradox that lies unresolved in modern society where we desperately need ways to exclude active dangers to community (make Wendigos) while also allowing people to make mistakes and grow. The online left seems to sometimes attempt to hold unrealistic standards of purity and cause counterproductive harm (see Lindsay Ellis). The carceral mindset seems to seep into everything; however, others go too far in the other direction and encourage the abused to “reconcile” with their abusers. Rayne Fisher Quann said “I don’t think you can truly help someone while they’re hurting you” and I agree. There’s this complicated web of necessary exclusion from certain people alongside maintained support systems or available spiritual resources that are needed to preserve community. I don’t know how to describe it. Notes: “It would be laughable to write ‘Mosquito’ if it were in reference to a flying insect, but acceptable if we were discussing a brand of boat [according to standard English conventions]” - Awesome little note that I'm afraid people didn't notice because its not in an official chapter. This ended up still being so long. Omg.

Alex Dian

The end of the book really lost some of its steam, but I thought it was me who was getting tired not the book just repeating itself. But I am glad others have the same opinion. I was expecting the final section to be a grandiose reveal of something more...but I think it felt just a desperate attempt to say different what has already been said. However, I did like the section (and the book). It has been such a delight to read. I felt a bit distant reading this book just simply because I don't know much of America's history. But I'm glad I learned some of it from Robin. Though it did inspire me to learn more about my own country's people, Indigenous Australians, via Tom Petrie's Reminiscences of Early Queensland. It was until reading Petrie's (his daughter authored it) perspective that I really appreciated People of Corn. "We may not have wings or leaves, but we humans do have words. Language is our gift and our responsibility. I’ve come to think of writ- ing as an act of reciprocity with the living land. Words to remember old stories, words to tell new ones, stories that bring science and spirit back together to nurture our becoming people made of corn." It is awful what colonialism has done to native peoples and their culture and land. Yet I am lucky that we have had language to preserve and continue on the culture, a culture I would never have known. I am lucky that Robin is gracious enough to be so generous to lend us an insight. I do feel that she achieved her goal. Because by gifting us this book, through reciprocity, I too now want to act. ------------------------ many thanks for including this book. I hope to be there for the town hall pending timezone shenanigans (6am start).

annie liz

ELLEN omg so dope to see you!! Sending strength and fortitude for all involved in foreshadowed videos and executed ideas. "Critiquing the book for being repetitive is to miss the nuance of each plant and individual life that Kimmer holds to the sun so carefully, but the momentum of those precise, specific, examples, ultimately led to what felt like the same beats again and again." YES that sums it up perfectly! It’s not that there aren’t differences to be found and loved and appreciated in each section! The problem is that there’s a swelling and receding ocean of minutia regarding she wants to cover, but the editing, at its lowest points, lends itself more to a faucet. Sticking the same beats does a discredit to the overwhelming love in Kimmerer’s heart to not give the book the thundering crescendos and shivering silences it deserves. Regardless, we made it! Despite the pitfalls I never regretted reading this book for a moment. It makes me want to double-take the world outside, take the time to spot its gifts. And to a small extent so far, I have! I was on a road trip this past week, a little down in the dumps tbh, but shot bolt upright in the car (startling the driver lol) pointing out the cattails clustered on the swampy side of the road. A small feature in a broad east coast landscape I never would have cared for previously, but in this instance recognized with joy as a (new and formed from book) friend. Now, I didn’t need a wal-marsh trip outside of the bountiful AC and snack paradise of my subaru, but the sight of them in the memory of the stories from Kimmerer was enough to pull my dour mood up a little bit. And isn’t that enough sometimes? I found the first half of the Sacred and the Superfund stunning, and a little horrifying. The haunted hayride jumpscare was one thing, but honestly just the incessant, devastating timeline of the lake felt like repeated hits in the stomach. You think it’s the end, but there’s another paragraph, then another page, another page, ANOTHER page… it was perpetual shovels of dirt on a grave (stop! he’s already dead!!) that felt suffocating and deeply compelling. "I can’t stop bombs from falling and I can’t stop cars from speeding down this road. It is beyond my power. But I can pick up salamanders" (359). Oh man.. depending on the mindset of the reader, this feels like either the most hopeful or most devastating line in the book. Currently, it filled my heart with a sad little salamander. I came away from the end with a stronger desire for ceremony than I felt in my last read. Brennan Lee Mulligan recently talked in a podcast about weddings as something that "makes everybody drop the things they're doing that are Waking World Important to do the thing that is Dream World Important" and that summed it up for me. It’s super common to look at ceremony and Occasions on the level of what actions they invoke in the touchable rational realm instead of what they ARE and what they DO. I came away with a stronger desire to latch onto that and see what ceremonies I can recognize in the world—even create on my own. I, sadly, might be a little late for the town hall on Wednesday, but I’m hoping to still make it before it ends! It’s a priority for me to see your faces and listen to your words, they’re wonderful gifts :) Thank u always book club!!!

annie liz

"Instead, capitalism demands us to slur entropy as 'disorder' -- to make entropy the enemy instead of acknowledging that the universe has reciprocity etched into its very fabric." this goes hard as fuck thank you

valentin

Bookclub finale lets go. Heres my favourite reading spot for this part of the book. I was in a park in central vienna, very nice scenery and it was also warm because summer is among us again. https://imgur.com/OWoRuys I think I will make it a tradition for book club to share my Reading Spot (trademark pending) each time, as long as it is interesting enough to point out. I encourage everyone to join, I’d love to see your Reading Spots (trademark pending) as well. Let’s go through the chapters once again, top to bottom, front to back, baby. WINDIGO FOOTPINTS: This chapter started out so interesting! Desperation stories and negative feedback loops, that stuff sticks to my brain like gum to a middle schoolers table. “Creation stories offer a glimpse into the worldview of a people, of how they understand themselves, their place in the world and the ideals to which they aspire. Likewise, the collective fears and deepest values of a people are also the visage of the monsters they create. “(p.305) Reminds me of the fact that a lot of legends and folklore in Europe centre around the plague and its happenings. Makes sense that in a time where a whole bunch of people were dying because of a sickness they did not understand, they needed some powerful stories to get themselves through it. One very popular story where I live is that of a Bard/Musician named Augustin who went around and played music and consumed alcohol. One time he got so drunk that people thought he was dead and threw him onto the hearse and into a “Pest pit” (that’s where they collected corpses back then, because they had too many to bury.) He then was rescued luckily, and the people wrote a song about it called “Oh dear Augustin” and most people know it these days. I don’t know what this story says about our people though… “Stable, balanced systems are typified by Negative Feedback Loops, in which a change in one component incites an opposite change in another, so they balance each other out.” (p.305) This whole concept has been bouncing around my mind for the last week or so. isn’t it fascinating? Negative feedback: don’t overindulge. Is that applicable everywhere? What about creating something? Does that count as a negative feedback loop. I WISH Kimmerer had elaborated on this because the concept makes so much fucking sense WHY did she have to pivot to capitalism right as she started to explain this. I know that the effects of capitalism on the environment were the main subject of this segment. I believe what Kimmerer says is true and valuable. But I just wish she’d elaborated just a little bit on the feedback loops, they’re so interesting. (to me) If anybody knows philosophy that engages with this concept or a similar one, pls tell me I would appreciate that very much. THE SACRED AND THE SUPERFUND This sure was a story. Interesting, but not captivating. That is how I felt about this essay. I did like some stuff tho. Especially the indigenous Law systems, pointing to laws as moral concepts rather than state enforced bureaucracy. “Despair is paralysis. It robs us of agency. It blinds us to our own power and the power of the earth.” (p.328) Climate doomerism is a very damaging mindset that has spread like a wildfire. Often younger people I meet say stuff like “were all going to be dead in a couple of years, so it doesn’t matter.” Apart from probably not being true (im an optimist) it hinders you from giving a shit and therefore hinders you from making a difference. Self fulfilling prophecy. PEOPLE OF CORN, PEOPLE OF LIGHT So I kinda love Kimmerers interpretation of this story. Time as a flat circle is something she has mentioned before and she applies this principle to this story in a very Good way. By asking the question if we’ve already become the people of corn or if we are still the people of light, she puts this story into a useful context. Maybe we aren’t done with our evolution yet. Maybe we aren’t as enlightened as we think. Good stuff. We need more story interpreters out here baby. COLLATERAL DAMAGE Ngl I did not enjoy this essay at all. To me it was boring from beginning to end. I’m sure its good for some people though, just not my cup of tea. SHKITAGEN: PEOPLE OF THE SEVENTH FIRE “You don’t show your love and care by putting what you love behind a fence. You have to be involved. You have to contribute to the well-being of the world.” (p.363) Absolutely true. Love is to precious to be kept to oneself. This is one of those quotes that just feels 100% right. Intuitively correct. This also feels like something that could be categorized as an Art Sin. Greed or something. Don’t keep what you made to yourself for your own pleasure/comfort. Share it with the world or go to Art Hell. Or something idk. Kimmerer reiterates her concern about the climate and her beliefs about not letting yourself be paralyzed by fear in this chapter. “Collectively we assemble from the wisdom of the past a vision for the future, a worldview shaped by mutual flourishing.” (p.371) Fuck yeah. This statement sort of summarizes the entire chapter into an elegant sentence, something that Kimmerer does several times in this book and it always hits hard. No different this time. And with that statement we continue to the final chapter. DEFEATING WINDIGO Ok listen, I LOVE this essay. Kimmerer writes a STORY for us to believe in. She tells us how to defeat Windigo, at the same time warning us that it’s “easy to write that, harder to do.” It serves as a really nice kind of meta-moment. Also I LOVE LOVE LOVE the final twist at the end of her story. The last few sentences of this essay, which are the ending of the book (ignoring the epilogue and addendum and stuff) are just so beautiful and perfect AAA. FINAL THOUGHTS This has been an interesting journey. There were definitely a lot of highlights, sadly also a couple of lowlights or whatever you wanna call them. I do sincerely love this book, for what it is and for what it has given me. This book has taught me the value of going outside and just looking. Paying attention. I do understand what Kimmerer means when she asks to think of plants and animals as people. They are worthy of our love. When I see a strawberry now, I see a soul, a person, someone worth protecting.

CJ The X

ahahahaha that “I don’t think you can truly help someone while they’re hurting you” line actually came from me. She called me while finishing that article for advice on how to say what she's saying without condoning staying with an abuser but also without apologizing or disclaiming too much and I said from a Quality standpoint you actually can't continue to contribute to a community if you allow yourself to be destroyed, & people can't develop better value pathways if they're still always able to rely on their old one

CJ The X

oooohh I love that Brennan Lee Mulligan quote. I am not familiar with all his things but he comes across such a magic man lmao WAL-MARSH VERY GOOD

CJ The X

Hi this is CJ normal Patreon Book Club contributor Like others above I'm grateful that I read this book and a little happy its over. My favourite bits were the religious stories, I adore how densely packed with Long Meaning our oldest myths are. I also loved the professorial testimonies, little love letters to her students in the field, and the moments when Kimmererer really exercised her expertise by explaining the spiritual and scientific realties of Strawberries, Pecans, or the beauty of Asters & Goldenrod simultaneously, striking the same heart of meaning from two entry points, demonstrating the wonderful whole. So although in Burning Sweetgrass there are still paragraphs and lines and stories and moments that were valuable to me, overall I really was starting to feel like there was less there for me, less to say. As Alex said above: "I was expecting the final section to be a grandiose reveal of something more...but I think it felt just a desperate attempt to say different what has already been said." I think in particular the end of Defeating Windigo when it starts namedroping all the previous chapters like the final track of a Marianas Trench album I was just like. ok. WINDIGO FOOTPRINTS: Yeah I like the Windigo. I like all the spiritual/cultural stories. They're great. THE SACRED AND THE SUPERFUND: I found this essay to be very poor from an artistic standpoint. Extremely longwinded reiteration of the basic fact that white stuff got poured into the lake, that's bad, no more fish no more tree no more bird, more white stuff in lake. Then the wild detour into the hanging man horror scene, the reveal of the Haunted Hayride, then the insanely forced attempt to make the Haunted Hayride MEAN somethign by incessant repetition despite its complete lack of effect on me. Dam mankind the real horrorshow....t his haunted hayrid totally ea metaphor for the white stuff when u think abtt it Then the building up of the the different LAND AS __ checkpoints, on the... hayride? I dont know man this was just a low point for me. The story itself is fine, and fine to tell, i just didnt like this attempt at stylizing it, it felt like it didn't amount to anything cohesive or meaningful. PEOPLE OF CORN, PEOPLE OF LIGHT: Love the Mayan creation myth, love the religious stories. Love the reiteration of this thought: "Language is our gift and responsibility." COLLATERAL DAMAGE: Cute lil lizard. This tale is fine. I think the connection between the Iraq War and the Lizards getting run over by cars was a little tenuous but that's fine I guess. This really feels like a personal blog post. A few essays bend that way, which is not inherently bad but it just makes me want a little more intentional sequencing and editing in this very long collection. For example when she re-explained "Species Loneliness" in this essay it really grated me. If the book is not building to a "grand reveal" it can at least build a vocabulary and then proceed to use it confidently, consistently, assuming our understanding. Like we've read entire chapters about species loneliness, why are we re-explaining it 350 pages in? SHIKITAGEN: PEOPLE OF THE SEVENTH FIRE: Again, love the myths, the story of the seven fire prophecies stirred me. I'm inexplicably invigorated by the thought we are living in The Time Of The Seventh Fire. "Wewene, I say to myself: in a good time, in a good way." “You don’t show your love and care by putting what you love behind a fence. You have to be involved. You have to contribute to the well-being of the world.” shout out the rayne fisher quann and kronk DEVESTATED by the tale of two prophecies, diverging destinies, where the strangers come and provide epoch altering life changing enhancements and wisdom, versus coming to annihilate the old world to build a new one on its grave. FUCK. Power can arrive as brotherhood or death. Good lord. "We need each other, to take a song, a word, a story, a tool, a ceremony and put it in our bundles... Collectively we assemble from the wisdom of the past a vision for the future, a worldview shaped by mutual flourishing." (371) "The spark itself is a mystery, but we know that before that fire can be lit, we have to father the tinder, the thoughts, and the practices that will nurture the flame." (372) DEFEATING WINDIGO: I'm interested in the idea of going to slay the Windigo in the summer. I don't know what it means but I am keepign it. "Remember that we already have everything we need. And so - we conspire." (377) First cuss of the book! "shit" - Robin Wall Kimmerer, Braiding Sweetgrass 2013 EPILOGUE: "A gift asks something of you. To take care of it. And something more." I definitely am taking things away from this book, I am glad that I have these Book Club threads to go back to instead of the actual essays themselves. I still remember some of the earliest pieces being the most powerful and comprehensive, like the Strawberries and Pecans and the little motherhood empty nest trilogy. I cannot lie I have climbed a tree and smelled flowers and touched leaves in the last few weeks and I have been more present for it, more amazed, more in love with the world because of this book. It succeeded in working its magic. I have settled on a little dream to plant a small garden to grow some strawberries, mint and hot peppers. Cause I know i'll eat those, and I hear they are doable. Okay back to editing this giant fucking video. see you in book club town hall!

sal3m

In the first discussion thread someone commented that reading Kimerer’s words felt like dancing (I don’t remember who it was sorryyy). Those words stuck with me throughout the whole book. The way she describes nature is so beautiful to me and I can’t help myself but to be envious of the way she sees the world. I’m a sucker for metaphors and this chapter was just one big Indigenous metaphor: the Windigo. The terrifying creature I’ve made up in my head after reading her description perfectly encompasses the feeling I get when thinking of the big companies polluting our world. This chapter felt a lot more serious because of it. The urgency she writes about got me a bit down, though, noticing that not much has changed (or even that most has gotten worse). And so I thank Kimerer for ending the book with a well deserved party. After all we can’t be productive if all we have is sorrow; to change the way we treat our world while thinking of the horrible things we’ve done to her is impossible, but with happiness and party/ritual it is that we can restore our relationship with the earth that feeds us. I hold my book high up in the air and praise Kimerer for allowing me to have this gift. What a wonderful read. These essays contain many words I’ll hold close to my heart for the rest of my life. What a wonderful gift it is to be able to express gratitude. There’s never enough of it:)

valentin

the salamander quote is really pretty! i do feel hope when I read this. there is something Good to be found in doing what you can to help. one small step forward. near meaningless in the grand scheme of things but not quite. it feels like a little spark of hope just waiting to catch on and turn into a fire.

valentin

you are one funny motherfucker. I laughed out loud at your critique of the hayride section, maybe bc it resonated with me, that whole chapter felt a little bit like a sludge just slopping around in my brain not really sticking to it. just like that white stuff. what was it called? idk I frogot

Carol N.

last section notes: i understood kimmerer’s final point of language as the main gift we can offer, though i do think there’s more to it. perhaps a better word is connection, between us as a species and everything we are a part of (”As we work to heal the earth, the earth heals us.” - how many of us truly understand this?). i actually really enjoyed the sacred and the superfund, well, enjoy is probably the wrong word. it was an incredibly difficult read. the land desperately trying to adapt to these conditions caused by carelessness, ultimately creating this frankenstein monster of an ecosystem, and how difficult we have made it to try and help it out. the vividness and recentness of it probably spoke to me more than any of kimmerer’s other write-ups on the big bad corporate world. finally, “But water is more faithful to its responsibilities than the United States would ever be,” wins best line. unlike valentin’s beautifully scenic reading spot, i finished the last chapters of this book at 2am in a grimy club, very poignantly surrounded by over-abundance. and while i’ve been taught by this book to be on a real lookout for how people approach reciprocity with the world, i was also operating some sick technology which needed a bit of human greed to be made. and that’s the thing with this conversation, isn’t it, it feels so difficult to make a concrete statement or plans, because fundamentally i feel a lot less adaptable than a plant child of mother nature. as an artist i am rooting myself in a greed-ridden place to even survive before i can thrive. part of the progress is learning i don’t have to be grand about shit, i think, maybe, perhaps. all of this is why i think i ultimately appreciated taking this book at our book club pace, even though it fully lost me for a moment with the romantic prose about very unfamiliar biology. i’m able to rate this book through the way it’s been changing my behaviour and outlook over the past few months, as the days conveniently became longer, prompting me to go on walks, think about where the 3 pound strawberries in my fridge came from, talking about Potawatomi language minutia to everyone who asked me a question. it did reconnect something that was lost to cynicism for me, and it stuck, which I genuinely appreciate. ultimately this book was teaching kindness. and beauty. and i appreciate anyone who can talk about beauty and kindness. that includes you book club 4 strawberries out of 5, didn’t bring my potted parsley back to life but guess that’s k

ellen

also reading lila right now you say 👁️👁️👁️ :3c if only thebere was some sort of book club situation where you could talk about it with likeminded people , your point about science treating itself like its got some remove from the world &is making neutral, unbiased, uninvolved, judgements on it is pretty astute. classic guys who do science fully specked into the cartesian split blunder. the quote you pulled on kimmer talking about students getting laughed at for saying things were 'beautiful' rather than more 'objective'-scientific-property words relates to that too; it's become vulnerable to just point at your individual place in the world and show how it humbled you

ellen

6am starttttt brutal.. we moved the time back half an hour so you now get a <3 6.30 start which is still awful but 30minutes less so. i was also hoping for a grand reveal of something more hahaha. superfund served a little bit as an escalation? kimmer's been so focused on the natural and more positive element that getting her description of White Sludge In Lake did feel more dramatic, right at the end of the book? but im with you

ellen

ANNIE LIZ omg back at you!!!! <3 u might be earlier than expected on wednesday bc we pushed the time back half an hour.. we wanna see you !! i love love that sweetgrass is turning us all into people on road trips pointing to cows and going COWS! except in anyplace that grows any plant.

Halley

hi! wow, lots to say, lots of feelings, lots to respond to. I just want to say this book club process is very neat, I feel like I get so much more out of this book by reading everyone's reactions and articulating my own response. Overall this has been such a pleasure to listen to. Her voice is lyrical, smooth and kind, and I can hear the unabashed joy and love in her voice throughout. It makes me just want to sit with a warm cup of tea and listen to her tell stories with a crackling fire in the background. First, some of the quotes that spoke to me: "In the face of blind injustice, how do we continue? How do we live our responsibility for healing?" "to waste means to render the valuable useless" "The waste beds are not unique- the cause and the chemistry varies from my homeland to yours, but each of us can name these wounded places. We hold them in our minds and our hearts." "Our natural inclination to do right by the world is stifled, breeding despair when it should be inspiring action. The participatory role of people in the wellbeing of the land has been lost." "They move Anyone who is still listening only to despair. Despair is paralysis. It robs us of agency. It blinds us to our own power and the power of the earth. But how can we submit to despair when the land is saying 'help'?" (this + "they get really sad. and they get really quiet.") "Even a wounded world is feeding us. Even a wounded world holds us, giving us moments of wonder and joy. I choose joy over despair. Not because I have my head in the sand but because joy is what the earth gives me daily and I must return the gift." (-a lot of these relate to something I wrote about earlier, admiring her ability to maintain hope and joy not in spite of all the horrors, but as a remedy. It's hard to dedicate energy to things that make you feel helpless.) "What we are in control of is our relationship to the earth. Species composition may change, but relationship endures. It is the most authentic facet of the restoration." "Here is where our most challenging and rewarding work lies: restoring a relationship of respect, responsibility, and reciprocity. And love. " "For what good is knowing if it's not coupled with caring?" "Naturalists live in a world of wounds that only they can see" "For one night, I want to clear my name. " "Your strange hunger for ease should not mean a death sentence for the rest of creation" -This line in particular made me think of the culture shock I feel going back to the US after being abroad. The cult of convenience is so strong, and in the US it's just overwhelming. I feel like people think I'm crazy for not being willing to mindlessly consume and waste. like every time I would buy a few groceries and insist that I could carry it and didn't want a bag, cashiers would act personally offended and give me so much attitude. The chapter about Salamanders reminded me of a magical experience I had a few years ago, unexpectedly seeing wild fire salamanders for the first time on a walk on a forest road. They struck me as being woefully vulnerable, big and bright black bodies speckled with orange slowly walking across the road, with such cute little eyes and faces. The next few weeks I walked that road and saw them only as fading splotches on the pavement. She describes her people as being 'people of the fire', which curiously is also how my partner's people are known- as people of the fire, or fire worshipers- despite being indigenous to a different part of the world. I'm not sure what to make of this but I think it is interesting to note similar beliefs that arise in different areas from the people who live with and pay attention to the natural world. I was thinking about our estrangement from nature, and how it makes mindsets of ecocide possible. We can get so wrapped up in our air-conditioned artificially-lit technologically-enhanced lives that we believe we are invincible to the forces of nature, but something as simple and powerful as cold, or heat, or water or even insects can demonstrate how vulnerable us humans really are. Then it becomes easy to make 'nature' the enemy, something to be conquered and tamed. Being in relation with the earth and understanding her dangers and gifts can tame that anxiety. Knowing survival skills like how to make a fire and identify edible plants (shopping at wall-marsh, basically) is empowering and enables a relationship of respect rather than fear. This winter I really learned how to consistently make a fire by taking a more active role in lighting the wood-burning stove that heats our home (I'm from Florida so I never had real winters). It's very empowering and meditative to watch it start. When my dad came to visit we stayed at a bnb and I was determined to make us a fire on the first go, and I felt so proud of myself to be able to show him I could. I guess growing up the task of making the fire usually got relegated to guys so I didn't get as much practice. I've been thinking about Collateral Damage as a concept. Last night the sky was finally clear enough to see the stars and I was thinking about my unease with the idea of Starlink, littering the skies with a constellation of satellites- but then I realized we've already forfeited the stars for airplanes and streetlamps and city life. It's easier to accept the night sky as collateral damage if you can't see stars anyways. I really like the myth of Windigo, because it gives a character and name to this giant interconnected phenomenon that can be hard to sum up in a word- capitalism, modernity, greed, over-consumption- it's all Windigo, this insatiable urge towards self-destruction. It is something external to resist but an also attitude within us to be defeated. I wasn't born to crave sugar (for example), but I've been fed it since childhood and now my body needs it. It’s a process of unlearning, an uncoupling of craving and self. Looking at the consequences and thinking how I can do better, but with compassion rather than blame. I was thinking back on a phrase from the beginning about using summer abundance to prepare for winter scarcity. I think it relates to the idea of Windigo's power being weaker in the summer. Some random things I wrote inspired by but not directly related to the book: Is memory physical? Don't the materials we use hold memory of what they are of? Art imprints on memory through sensuous experience. Materials speak through us and we speak through them. The earth thanks me for tilling with shards of enameled pottery peeking out from the soil Like the whole world is trying to communicate something if I could just pay attention Feeling lots of gratitude for this circle and everyone participating to make it happen <3

BrEaNs

@annie liz: You have no idea how dedicated to this idea I've been lol. I had this epiphany a few years back, and, over the past year, I've made a video essay and a substack post on that basic idea (both since unpublished due to not being good). It's something that is permanently pinned in my mental cork board for whatever reason. So, it does really mean a lot that it does resonate with someone else, even if just a little bit. @CJ The X: I saw the footnote that you were involved with that part! I find it interesting that it was formulated from a Quality standpoint. I wouldn't have necessarily thought so (though I think I'm seeing how natural that framework is as I get further into Lila). I really appreciate the extra insight into the background, particularly the whole "people can't develop better value pathways if they're still always able to rely on their old one" thing. That correlates well with some experiences I've unfortunately had (and also with Beck's Meaning of Suffering essay). I really love the Rayne quote and it's stuck in my mind since a read it awhile back, so thank you Rayne for that also. @ellen: I'll definitely have to post to the Lila book club! I just passed the first checkpoint for that not long ago. It is truly a strange book. Much like a platypus, it's unclassifiable for me. I saw a TikTok (Ew) awhile back that gave a pretty good summary of the science problem: We treat being emotionally removed from a situation as something that makes us better at assessing things, but having little emotional literacy actually just makes you incompetent at most things. Of course it's bad to be flagrantly biased in one direction and try to force that perspective, but the way you avoid that is not by somehow turning off your emotions, it's by having tact. When you have a greater sense of self-respect alongside humility and an ability to truly love things, then you are able to be respectful to everything. Being respectful to things means not supplanting your image of what a thing is onto that thing. It means active listening. In science, the aesthetic of respect seems to supplant actual respect a lot of the time.

ellen

reading spots trademark pending™️ is so cute I'm fully in. I read most of sweetgrass lying on the hill by a baseball diamond in my local park.

margaret (formerly Samson)

I would love to read more of your thoughts about entropy as disorder - how did you come to that epiphany? Why do you classify it as epiphany? What did you think before? What does it meann!? Something is in there and I want more of it if you would be so kind as to share :)

margaret (formerly Samson)

Annie Liz! Thank you for the mulligan quote, I've added that to my "threads to pull" list :) I love how this whole space always gives more to learn about and expand into. A book I recently skimmed (I liked it, but found it a bit surface level and after the first chunk I wanted to just hear him out and be fine) was The Power of Ritual, by Casper ter Kuile (who made Harry Potter and the Sacred Text). Perhaps this would be a good jumping off point for you? (Or you'll feel like I did about it and go on looking for something deeper. Might be a good one to get from the library!)

Natthew Lee

Hello! Sorry I’ve been absent from book club, I’ve had a whole lot going on. This book honestly hasn’t inspired a lot of discussion from me. I’ve loved reading but it is very much what it is on its face. In some ways the fact that it was a collection of such short essays made it a lot harder to write about? I feel like I had to have thoughts about each one and it felt like all of them didn’t complement each other well. They’re so bite sized much of them don’t elicit much more than what they say. It really comes down to a lack of editing. It felt like these essays weren’t written to be in a collection and they’re covering so much of the same territory. Should have cut down all these overlaps. I wish there was a wider range of emotions. A lot of contemplating and feeling grateful and marveling at beauty. It all starts to flatten eventually. I would like it if there was more range. The moments of rage and sorrow are rarely dwelled upon, she notes it and then almost compulsively turns us back to gratitude every time. Which I guess is the point. The Iraq War parts of Collateral Damage were really bad and added nothing but I loved the salamander encounter :) The thoughts about saving the salamanders poisoning the data that shows how bad they're doing which could save more in the long run is very interesting. Reminds me of the end of the Hunger Games when the rebels blow up Katniss' sister for the sake of the revolution and then thats why she kills the president. Collateral Damage I Guess, but it still doesn't tie into Iraq :/ This chapter my favorite and least favorite of burning sweetgrass I liked the grass H E L P in superfund but I agree that the haunted house felt very shoehorned in. Just some small misc thoughts! I really did love the book. I loved the focus on ritual, the quiet observance with which she beholds near everything around her. Coffee grounds, asters and goldenrod. Idk if its that the first half was packed with all the best essays or i just got too exhausted by repetition to appreciate the later ones. I’ll definitely read the book for next book club and hopefully I’ll have more to say slash be able to give more time to writing and thinking. Have really enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts as I read along. I wish that I was able to come to the town hall but I was working! Ok bye xoxx nat

BrEaNs

I'm trying to compile my thoughts into a substack article! But I will provide A LOT of quick notes in case that never actualizes. So I came to the "epiphany" via a collection of experiences. I took a class on the book "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" by Daniel Dennett in college, and my take away was that evolution was much different than how its presented in the public sphere. The common opinion of evolution is that it operates by "survival of the fittest," which is imagined in terms of individual members of a species dominating others. I found that evolution was very anti-individualist and actually positioned all life as deeply connected and part of the same massive equilibrium. This experience made me notice the way certain science topics take off in the public sphere in ways that are deeply ideological. I had also long been confused by the whole "entropy = disorder" thing. "What does disorder mean?", I asked. Eventually, I had to read this summary of thermodynamics for my physical chemistry class, and I finally "got" entropy / the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The 2nd law can also be formulated as (roughly) "energy moves from hot things to cold things." On a molecular level, having a lot of thermal energy means that molecules are moving quicker and more forcefully. When hot molecules come into contact with colder (slower and less forceful) molecules, the hot molecules impart energy to the cold molecules, which slows down the hot molecules and speeds up the cold ones (conservation of energy). This process spreads out until both objects the molecules belong to come to the same equilibrium temperature. This is described as an increase in disorder because we started with energy more densely packed into one object and concluded with energy dispersed all over the place. For whatever reason, my mind compared this to redistribution of wealth. Energy flows from those that have to those that don't. I saw that you COULD describe this process in terms of disorder, but that that was a massive value judgement that fit well within capitalist preferences for hierarchy. After having scientific topics actually end up being kinda left wing twice in a row, I was pushed into studying where this whole "entropy as disorder" thing came from. My findings were roughly as follows: 1. Entropy was discovered in the context of it preventing steam engines from producing infinite work. I think this stacked the deck against entropy. It was anti-capitalist but discovered under capitalism, so we were poised to hate it. 2. Entropy was coined 6 years after Darwin's "Origin of Species." Darwin cast a lot of doubt about the definiteness of science. Newton had formulated a law bound science that perfectly described motion for a long time. Darwin said that nature was fundamentally random. This caused a lot of anger among people that wanted nature to be ordered and then entropy comes along and drives the knife in. Entropy said that some energy was forever out of our grasp and then, amid the ruckus of Darwin, Boltzmann discovered that entropy is best described statistically, like evolution. Boltzmann's description of entropy in terms of disorder was then picked up by Henry Adams (great grandson of John Adams) and entered the public sphere as something that foiled Adams's desire to create a science of history or something. ("In plain words, Chaos was the law of nature; Order was the dream of man.” - H. Adams) The whole experience radically changed my understanding of objectivity in science. I saw that uniquely Western ideas were invading science. I saw how people (esp. STEM people) take science for granted and aren't given the tools to dissect its hidden ideologies. My brain was forever destroyed by this whole journey. And so, I find myself in CJ the X book club trying to resolve shit. Hopefully you enjoyed my villain origin story lol.

margaret (formerly Samson)

I felt the same, especially in these later chunks, I've just had so much less to say. I appreciate you putting words to wanting more range of feelings. I think I wanted to spend time, not considering the gratitude, but rather exploring the way that we pick ourselves up (or each other) when we are stuck in the gratitude. I feel like our world society has gotten really down, and maybe it was always that way, but it feels like such a bummer. And it's one thing to be told "be grateful and look at the beauty", but it's another thing to be told "and this is how being grateful is helpful, and also this is how to use your negative feelings to enact positive change." But before now I think I've just been saying " I wish she talk about something else", which isn't really the right articulation. So thanks for that :) I also wonder how much of the lack of editing that we're noticing now is due to the nature of us reading for book club. Like, if this was just a "I'll read an essay before bed sometimes" book, or a morning meditation, or a daily devotional but Indigenous flavored, would we be so bothered? Is it just because we're here together and looking to go... Somewhere... That we are interested in crisp editing and succinct points that we can learn and move on? (Is there anything wrong or right with that?)

margaret (formerly Samson)

I so want you to write a thing on this! There's something in your brain's serendipitous juxtaposition of entropy and economics that just *chefs kids (That was a typo but I like it enough to leave it) I've always had a mental picture in my head of entropy as like swimming pool, where the water really just wants to be flat, and if left alone (without any inputs) it will eventually cease motion, but if there is input it will spread it out slowly. There's also the image of the car coasting to a stop, or the mug that fades to room temperature over a couple hours. And really none of these phrases is the true image I see in my head (that has a bit of a space background somehow) and anyway my mental picture is probably missing a lot of nuance. But generally I kind of feel like it's the white-noisification of the universe, and it just happens really slowly on a human time scale. But hearing it next to economics, and hearing that as Disorder, like... OF COURSE they think it's disorder, it's the heat/energy/profit not going towards the one place they want to direct it. It's a retaining wall falling over and scattering dirt on their driveway and now they have to shove it back where they wanted it in the first place. It's the workers saying "fuck you, pay me" so now they lay off 5% of the company and announce their plans to hire "lower cost" workers in India and Costa Rica instead, because they want more margin, and David Fusco doesn't care, he'll get up and defend it like the fucking frat bro MBA he is. It got too even there for a second, it got too inefficient, they needed to add some insulation, they needed to stop the entropy. I'm curious, do you see the entropy in the way the Internet has sort of democratized information? Like... We can all know so many more things now, and yeah there are still institutions trying to be (or even successfully being) prestigious and Top Tier, but things are a lot more flat than they once were. How far do you think this pattern goes?

BrEaNs

I really like the swimming pool image. I think I might have a similar "true image" of entropy. It's something like imagining entropy spreading out across all of space in some nebulous way into a even distribution. I'm not sure that I've really thought about democratized information in terms of entropy! That's a cool way of looking at it. I do see it now that you say it! I think I've been more fascinated with the construction of Western institutions more than I have been with their dissolution. My impulse is to see the universe as obviously opposed to white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy, so my mind is guided to ask "where do Western institutions come from and how are they maintained?" I think these are interesting questions, but I think my focus does make me not see how things are actually getting flatter, like you said. It's a kind of pessimistic focus, I guess. Something related to your point about things getting flatter is that I think AI is majorly being used to counter the flattening of information. At one level, things like deepfakes harm our ability to trust our senses, which leads to a greater dependence on centralized authorities that have the resources to fact check things. At another level, AI/ML enshrines current patterns into something that is hard to question -- something that generates outputs from a complex series of "objective" calculations (See the COMPAS algorithm). Things like OpenAI being cagey with how they train their models removes the ability for truly investigating how AI creates decisions and thereby maintains a capitalist state of things due to the severe "insulation."

Teageen

I was not able to make it to the town hall meeting and I'd love to participate in the next book club. If someone could fill me in that would be much appreciated!

margaret (formerly Samson)

Hey! So the book club call was mostly a live version of what we do in these chats. CJ and Ellen hold down the fort, and those of us with something to chat about raise a hand and join them in the fort for a bit while the rest mingle in the chat, often having side conversations about the book or topics relevant, or responding to whatever is being said. As far as future plans - sounds like CJ and Ellen have planned to do Story of Your Life, by Ted Chang next. It's a short story, and CJ described our doing it as a mini book club experience. I'm not sure of the timing, and I think there might just be one post that's done about it, so personally I'm just going to go find it and read the whole thing as soon as I can get the rats in my brain to cooperate. :)

Kylie

I’m going to try and test review formats. Suffice to say that this book was amazing, but I blew through it when I finally got it back from my library, so rather than reviewing individual essays, i’m going to review the whole: ~ I must warn you. If you read this book, you might find yourself making a fool of yourself. Food, medicine, meat, wood, and fabric all come from the Earth in abundance, yet we have lost the connection to our planet, seeing these things that were once tended and loved by communities of people as plastic wrapped commodities on the shelf of our local grocery store. This story tries to put our relationship with our home right. I listened to Kimmerer and was stirred by her passion, her biology, her knowledge of ecosystems and love for plants, then <b>took to the outdoors with a determination to bond with nature. </b> <img src="https://media4.giphy.com/media/3osxYoCkKu892JBLUc/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952q6ygjjd33769iipx5c9eyhr9myjhcjekw2w7doja&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g" width="" height=""> Deep in the heart of Texas Hill Country, you could find me carefully doing my yoga beside a lake, pretending not to care that a highway was nearby. If you’d stopped by a little later, you would have seen a girl staring at the sky and wildlife as a summer storm rolled in. A little later, that same girl could be seen walking toward a cabin with trepidation, arguing with herself about whether the hand-sized bug she’d seen could have possibly been a giant species of heretofore unknown Texas hornet. My grandma likes to tease me for being scared of big bugs. After ashamedly belly-laughing at the imaginary letter I composed to Kimmerer telling her that I had let myself be schooled by what was probably a harmless, large bug, I stomped back out to my mat and sat beside the bug. We watched the storm roll in together. <img src="https://media1.giphy.com/media/xT9IgNPVbGsa0Wd8li/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952cs1dqwnn6jvcz9gihmzkbvqas3wouk3l5ww16fd4&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g" width="" height=""> After this I went hiking, and on this land there were giant cow-sized Addax with twisting horns and a protective vibe because of their new babies. I steered clear of these, picking my way up the hill, until one <i> sprang out of the forest beside me and charged.</i> I sprinted the mile back to the house, my phone dead, hoping that if i was maimed I could crawl to a nearby road and flag down help. As the cabin came back into view, I was almost off put by how the sky and land was entirely gorgeous, completely clashing with my adrenaline-addled brain. Almost, but not quite. I warn you about this adventure because that is the effect of Kimmerer’s work, she makes you want to spring into action on behalf of a world that loves us, but that we don’t properly love back. I’m planning to help clean a local lake now with some friends and learn about my local ecology on top of my new job and other obligations, because it’s important. She’s convinced me of it. <img src="https://media4.giphy.com/media/8OJdqYqN1Nii3UTD6l/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952gaxjj5h1n4giupqnnql96uunxahfezdyrxhxds63&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g" width="" height=""> If you read this book and you’re moved like I was, your review will also be similar acts, hopefully not quite of my stupidity. Kimmerer is a beautiful, meaningful scolder, and I felt all the credit she was giving her reader, and all the scolding of not correcting my ignorance. One critique to get out of the way upfront is that Kimmerer’s essays could have done with some added order. As it reads, the organic storytelling is beautiful and scattered, and this style means some essays are completely out of mind after a couple chapters have passed, because they don’t flow well with the stories surrounding them.

Kylie

did I say this was a review? this was a ramble. my goodreads friends are going to think i’m crazy, but maybe they’ll pick up the book 🤣

margaret (formerly Samson)

26 Jun I have finally finished the whole thing. I am glad I read it, and am also glad it's over. I think I needed that message when we started reading, but it was a slow message and I feel like the thing I need now is something next. Reading Spot (TM) - mostly laying in my bed, looking out at the neighbor's trees and enjoying the windows being open. I wish I could be cool enough to read in parks or even outside, but I'm just not able to focus if I'm not in one of my normal sitting spots. Re:windigo -It's just so nice to hear her talk about sin. She has different language for it, and the different lens is so interesting. -Windigo feels like Vampire. -The reference to cannibalism (or at least, leaving infants to die of exposure) is haunting. As a mother, I cannot imagine the horror of honestly considering Jo's imminent death, much less the horror of causing it. I am reminded of Hagar and Ishmael, who fled to the desert and nearly died, with Hagar putting her baby down and walking away because she couldn't bear to witness his death. I almost come undone when Jo cries because she wants me to stay in bed with her at night. It turns my stomach to think of how she would sound if I abandoned her to death by exposure or dehydration or starvation. I gotta move on, this is too much for me. I would not have been so sensitive to this before having her. Re: the sacred and the superfund -I feel the despair. I feel a lot of it, and don't know what to do with it. -And just as I was getting stuck in the despair, Kimmerer pulls in nature and kind of says "humanity isn't alone in figuring this out". Bo Burnham's words (via Socko) echo in my head as she pivots: "why do you rich fucking white people insist on seeing every sociopolitical conflict through the myopic lens of your own self actualization?? This isn't about you. So either get with it, or get out of the fucking way." I don't know what it means to get with it. I don't know what it means to get out of the way. I want to be able to drop my lifestyle and go plant plants, using my time to restore nature instead of bearing insurance coverage for my family. But instead, I continue to live in my house, use my air conditioning, buy yogurt for my kid in single use plastic containers that I know are going to get thrown away (along with every other wrapper that feeds her or her classmates) and work a corporate work from home job. Re: people of corn -I hear the Time as Circle in the creation story she shares here. It reminds me of something someone said in a small group years ago - that the book of Revelation is like a map of all the eras after the resurrection, and the different churches listed are different ways the church would misbehave over the course of centuries. Which church-receiving-a-lecture are we now? -02 Jul: I actually just read Story of your Life, and thinking about time as so circular wrecks my mental processor. I think there's some sand in my gears, I'm stuck somewhere, but I'm not really sure where. Re:collateral damage -I hated this chapter. It was fine, of course, but I just couldn't stomach the image of the salamander splats. -Also the sentence about the two young men kicking a toad between them like a hacky sack just wrecked me. I can't understand how you can be a human and do such a thing, let alone finding another human just as up for it. Re: seventh fire -This one primarily reminds me of Avatar the Last Airbender, both the Jeong Jeong episode and the Firebending Masters episode. Jeong Jeong laments his "fiery curse" saying "water brings healing and life... fire will spread and destroy everything in its path." Aang learns in that episode the cost of carelessness. It's a valuable lesson, but he takes it too far, saying he'll never firebend again. And then in the Firebending Masters, he is timid about fire, afraid he will cause destruction and suffering if he isn't extra careful. And it puts him at risk of neglecting what he needs to do in that moment, of neglecting his gift and his responsibility. He needs to master fire, not just be careful and risk averse. And not just for himself - the world needs him to do it. And when the Masters show him what fire can be, he says: "All this time, I thought Firebending was destruction. Ever since I hurt Katara, I've been too afraid and hesitant. But now I know what it really is - it's energy, and life." And I think there's a bit of like, did the ATLA creators know what they were doing when they coded the dragons' protectors as an indigenous group? It's like they clocked indigenous peoples' respect for harmony and being a good steward for the natural world, and found it appropriate for the near-extinct dragons to be ceremonially protected by an ancient civilization. Kimmerrer says "we have to create balance", and I wonder if she loved ATLA as much as I did. But also, what a fucking metaphor for forest fires. We've been so afraid of causing destruction that we've preached "only you can prevent forest fires", and yet we get forest fires anyway. Maybe we should stop being too afraid and hesitant, maybe we should learn from the old masters and use the fire to bring healing, and life. Also, as a kid, starting a fire was one of the only things me and my siblings weren't allowed to do in the forest behind our house, and I kinda envy Kimmerrer for it. We made forts, climbed trees, built walls and dams, played with broken glass, but never played with fire. I'm not sure if I'll let Jo play with fire unsupervised, but I think I'd like to let her experience it as much as possible. -And then she starts talking about the seven fires, and about how there is an age for each of them, and like What Please Say More Words. I know shes an ecologist and not a religious studies prof, but this is so fascinating. Did those prophecies really happen? (What do I mean by that question, anyway? What would it mean for someone to have actually happened?) Did they receive Oracle-like visions of the future? Is that a hindsight reading, intended to give us a story in which to locate ourselves? And the seventh fire age, being so connected to the idea of turning around and learning from the ancestors. Yes. I've been getting a lot of YouTube recommendations lately for videos about how the Internet is becoming shittier and shittier, with our online spaces being corrupted into really complicated billboards with human bait attached to them. And maybe I'm just really pipelined into leftist spaces now, but it really feels to me like people are generally aware of the lackluster direction that our society is headed, and even if they can't agree on what to do instead, they agree that it's not what life should be. And I wonder how much of our work in the coming decades will be to try to claw back some of the softer, more community minded skills that we've been neglecting (or intentionally ignoring). Things like, how to put down roots, how to make friends again, how to be a community, how to not raise children who want to move away from you, how to be a neighbor, how to enjoy life without rampant consumption. So Kimmerer speaking of the people of the seventh fire being responsible for that work, idk, it feels like a holy message or something. That, or it's just confirmation bias lighting up my brain. (Also she repeated "so much depends on.." so many times at the end of this one and all I could think of was the "so much depends on a red wheelbarrow" poem, which always annoyed me, because it felt so flat to me in high school. I haven't wanted to go look at it since.) Re: defeating windigo What does it mean to be in summer? Does it mean "in a time of plenty"? Does it mean Heat? Does it mean long days? Does it mean a break from school? Humidity? (For me it means humidity). Also, the idea of burning the world out of a desire to do less work just smacked me over the head, and it's so hard for me to not go way too extreme with that. Is it not burning the world, just a little bit even, to buy frozen Mac and cheese for a family gathering and to throw away the non -recyclable packing it comes in? Is it not burning the world to send individually wrapped granola bars and yogurt cups with Jo to daycare every day, or even to send compostable leftovers containers with her even though I know full well the daycare isn't capable of (or interested in) separating out compost, nor am I going to go and do it for them? Is it not burning the world a little bit to turn on the AC so that my husband doesn't feel like crawling out of his skin due to the humidity? Is it not burning the world to use a gas stove? Would it be better or worse to go get an electric one? There are so many questions. It is overwhelming, I'm not alone in it. I feel the despair, so do others. I have no answer. But I hope that eventually, it is Summer enough that we can start to gird up our loins and address our winter. Re: epilogue No thoughts, head empty atm. Thanks to everyone here for reading this with me Thanks to CJ and Ellen for pulling me to read this I'm going to go outside now. :)

JustConnor

this book really made me appreciate the plants and stuffs better. i try and like audibly say 'thank you' to like earth i guess? idk weird but she got me convinced. i really do find that this was a similar effect to when i read how to do nothing earlier this year. overall these ones were decent, and i have to agree with cj that i felt white goopy one didnt quite do it for me. but i was almost moved to tears by the last 3, so thats good. anyways i now only have lila, and the minibookclubs left so byyeeee

phil e the theyby

Woooof this one hit me hard. So I fucking LOVED the story of the Windigo. I adore hearing any given culture's myths and fables and learning about the cultural contexts that led to those particular fables having those particular moral messages. So a cautionary tale about turning into a monster with an insatiable hunger during times of scarcity *so that people don't turn to cannibalism*, while also connecting that idea in a very visceral way to the disease of consumption that plagues our time, was a VERY compelling image to me. "The Sacred and The Superfund" had some good shit in it, which I will now quote: "Human beings made this happen, not a faceless corporation. There were no threats, no extenuating circumstances to force their hands, just business as usual." (325) "'Supression of our natural responses to disaster is part of the disease of our time. The refusal to acknowledge these responses causes a dangerous splitting. It divorces our mental calculations from our intuitive, emotional, and biological embeddedness in the matrix of life. That split allows us passively to acquiesce in the preparations for our own demise.'" (326) I've been VERY compelled lately by the idea that so many of the illnesses of our time result from us learning throughout our lives, starting as children, to distrust our intuitive, embodied, emotional responses to the world around us. How many of us were taught not to ask questions, or that "this is just how the world is, there's nothing we can do"? The crippling anxiety so many of us feel all the time is meant to motivate us to face the challenges of our lives, yet most of us feel powerless in the face of those challenges, so we try to numb that feeling out. But that only heightens our feelings of powerlessness. "Joanna Macy writes that until we can grieve for our planet we cannot love it--grieving is a sign of spiritual health. But it is not enough to weep for our lost landscapes; we have to put our hands in the earth and make ourselves whole again." (327) Most of us don't know how to do that. We don't know what to do with it. For those of us who feel powerless, I think the first step is to turn to each other, and to acknowledge that powerlessness, and to try to find incredibly small acts of "putting our hands in the earth." If you know one fucking person who has a garden, let them teach you about gardening. If literally everyone you know feels terrified and powerless around nature and botany, just...go for a walk outside, in whatever place near you has the closest thing to a natural ecosystem, and just listen. I'm not gonna lie; I'm mildly annoyed by some of the more critical comments against this book, mostly because the whole book is about learning to listen to and understand the messages of teachers who don't speak the same language as you (particularly plants, but also animals), and a lot of the criticisms people have seem to be with how Kimmerer writes/uses language rather than any of the actual ideas, which is explicitly from a different cultural perspective than the one most of us were raised in. In some ways it feels like a refusal to engage with the premise of the book itself. This critique is mostly leveled at CJ (who kinda sets the tone for this space more broadly), but it does sort of make sense in that I feel like they haven't really integrated a lot of indigenous perspectives into their work more broadly in a way that somewhat surprised me given that this book had been covered in book club. That makes a little bit more sense to me now. And like, no shade to CJ; they can do whatever they want, it's their life. But for me, I find that this book has a LOT of wisdom to drink deeply from, though it's often required me to quiet my objectifying/evaluating mind and try to let it speak to me on a more embodied level. I think the main idea of Kimmerer's that I was critical of was her apparent view of this decision point around our response to our world's condition; the split path between healing the world and further destroying it (whatever page that was on, I don't feel like looking it up). Ellen's kind reminder that this book was written in 2013 reminded me of just how massively our view of the environment and the climate have shifted in the last 13 years. "Restoring the Kinship Worldview: Indigenous Voices Introduce 28 Precepts for Rebalancing Life on Planet Earth" was a collection of essays and commentary published by Wahinkpe Topa (Four Arrows) and Darcia Narvaez in 2022, and in there the discussion of climate change is much more around creating the conditions for repair and rebuilding as climate collapse continues to happen and further accelerates, rather than talking as though we have this option to meaningfully avert catastrophe. But I think those intervening nine years made a HUGE difference in how most of us think about climate change. There was other good stuff in here, but I'm gonna focus on my reaction to the end. I will say that I'm not sure if I've ever truly *felt* gratitude before. I've felt like, general appreciation for things people do, but it's often felt like this uncomfortable, forced thing where people are looking at me and I have to perform a certain emotion (even if I genuinely like something they did/got for me). In terms of gratitude for life/the world/the gifts afforded to me by the earth? Since childhood, I've maintained the stance that I did not ask to be born and I feel no gratitude for any of that shit. And even as I've gotten less depressed/emo, I still have felt VERY removed from the actual emotional experience of gratitude. But something about the ending line, "In return for the privilege of breath" (384), in the context of having read this whole book, just fucking HIT me. I saw the literal BILLIONS of years of life on Earth, of water and sunlight and change and adaptation and evolution, all coalescing into the world I see today. This world where I get to read and think. Where I get to laugh and make shit up with my friends. Where I get to eat food and take walks and hear music. This world where I am truly, in a staggering way, never alone; the body I think of as an isolated entity is comprised of billions of microorganisms, living ecosystems composed of so many forms of life, incomprehensible to my thinking mind. And yet, my thinking mind can do puzzles and perform improv comedy and generate words that make other people feel they're not alone. All of that just fucking hit me in a single second, and tears came to my eyes. In what I truly believe was the first time in my entire life, I just felt SO overwhelmingly grateful for the world and all of its abundance. That I get to experience life, in everything that it is. That the Earth and the Sun and all of the Beings who have inhabited the earth for millions if not billions of years before humans existed have created the conditions that allow me to live and breathe right here, right now. When I look at all of that, how can I do anything other than embrace the world and say "thank you"?