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Glenn Kessler Retire B*tch (Patreon)

Published:
2024-09-26 09:00:05
Imported:
2026-06

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Is fact-checking a legitimate enterprise? Is America's most famous fact-checker nothing more than a dweeb? Michael and Peter discuss.

You can play this episode directly through Patreon or use our RSS feed to add it to your podcast app. Here are the instructions from Patreon.

As always, leave suggestions for bonus episodes in the comments!

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Nathan Kramer

Please do an episode on Yuval Noah Harari!

Nathan Kramer

Also, Noah Smith of the infamous Noahpinion substack could use the IBCK treatment...

Ol' Flashy

My preferred statistic is Pinocchios Over Replacement Politician (PORP).

Handsome Dave

Peter gotta be so mad the Eric Adams news dropped on a release day, and not one of the multiple episodes about how much he sucks.

zekleinhammer

Glenn once gave Bernie Pinocchios for correctly citing a study about Medicare for all, by going after the methodology of the study!

Pablo Barría Urenda

Metric: 10 lies are a deca lie. Imperial: there are 7 Pinocchios in a Boy Who Cried Wolf, and 512 Boys Who Cried Wolf in a Baron Munchausen.

Maggie Risher

Definitely need a reaction episode on Eric Adams’s indictment!

Kailey

I love how Michael feels he has to emphasize that he thinks fact-checking is good actually when he's literally on his third fact-checking podcast lol

Agnès Denie

I was listening to the Mark Bittman podcast, who had on this dude bringing up the French paradox and I got weird looks for yelling into thin air IT'S BECAUSE THEY REGISTER THEIR CAUSE OF DEATH DIFFERENTLY

Agnès Denie

to be fair to the dude, he did eventually mention there's differences in registration too

Matt Killmon

As soon as I saw this email come from the NYT last night I thought “welcome to our trash revolution” and wanted to be a fly on Peter’s wall.

Bella

has peter heard that eric adams has been indicted

Dane Sherman

do mr Catholic Ross Douthat!!!!

Sabrina Martin

What's wrong with him? The one book I half read seemed good

Courtney Seyl

I’ve been thinking about this all morning

William Knight

Glenn Kessler lives in MacLean, the wealthiest and most exclusive northern Virginia suburb of DC. Real mystery why he doesn’t like Bernie Sanders (also shows how much he is being paid to do a column an intern could do).

William Knight

He is a glib peddlar of untrue and almost meaningless universal narratives like Pinker or Diamond.

Gemma Gompertz

On the last Maintenance Phase subscriber ep, Michael got to "there's just one book". Now Peter is bringing Retire, Bitch to IBCK. Not only do I love it but I propose: Just One Massive DebunkCast!

Meghan Healy

Same in fact my first thought when I read the headline yesterday

Tau

My personal favorite fact-check error comes from a large German news site. Discussing the theory that Ukraine sabotaged the Nord-Stream 2 pipeline between Germany and Russia. They went on to "debunk" a report claiming Ukrainian agents did "plant shaped charges" on the pipeline. However they mistranslated it as "plant-shaped charges" and thus asked an explosives expert whether it is possible to make explosives look like algae.

Jude Tee

“You’re not a creature from myth” HA!

Jorie Slodki

Bonus episode ideas: The downfall of Snopes.com The polycule between Olivia Nuzzi, RFK Jr., and RFK Jr.'s brain worm

Fred Maxon

It might make for an interesting bonus episode to read Smart On Crime by Kamala Harris and Joan O'C. Hamilton.

Christy

Impressed by Peter’s encyclopaedic knowledge of Pinocchio characters

Carly Gove

the bernie ones just made me so mad

Amanda M

As an abortion rights advocate who was working in Ohio in 2022, it was shocking to hear that Glenn Kessler started that nightmare media cycle. Also fuck Ohio AG Dave Yost I wish you called that bitch out by name

C Harrison

i think the only reasonable response is to develop an entire secondary fact checking infrastructure—i propose the Kessler metric: 1 Kessler- pedantic ☝️🤓 ass hair splitting 2 Kesslers- saying something is false because the thing they said is true if you consider additional information that they took into account (the debt thing) 3 Kesslers- blatant punditry, opinion journalism masquerading as “objective” fact checks fact checks that lay things out clearly and correctly with responsible attention towards truth can get a jiminy cricket

Jess

Oh man I was so hoping to hear about the huge Project 2025 "fact check" that got a BUNCH of Facebook posts removed

Jess

Sorry I meant to add that I loved the episode. Thank you

TJ Barke

A fact divorced from context is as good as a lie.

Pagrocrag

So glad everyone’s first impulse upon seeing that headline was to come here. Looking forward to the next Eric Adams update as they search his residence, along with his popular knapsacks with many different locations.

Andrew Mowen

Literally am reading the definition of "corporate raider" in my business 101 textbook right now. The timing is perfect!

Kenyon DeVault

I’m impressed by how many characters from Pinocchio Peter can name seemingly on the fly!

Kyle Reesman

Peter became Roger Rabbit for a bit there

S

Fuck Ohio

S

I think it's a necessary main feed. How you going to re-release Hillbilly Eligy but ignore Kamala's book?

S

Kids are being raped and just using logic, some of them will get pregnant. Something people might not know, some youth (ages 8-18) can commit sexual crimes such as rape and go through a diversion program and their case will be expunged and/or sealed. A lot of these youth had also been abused at a younger age. That data might be excluded from a lot of statistics because it's not disclosed to the public by the court.

mguin

Figaro, out of nowhere! And almost nobody remembers the whale's name

Eileen Divringi

Sorry but the AP fact check of JD Vance's couch fucking remains the best of all time

Lucy Smyth

How does Peter know/remember so many characters from Pinocchio?

Eiren

Can you guys do an ep on Emily Oster?

Jeff Scherer

It’s misleading to say that fact-checking started in the 2000s… of course publications had fact-checkers before then to verify stories before they were published. What started in the 2000s was the practice of fact-checking as its own story, especially calling out politicians on their lies.

Jeff Scherer

And yes I see the irony here

Corey Baesler

Wasn’t super familiar with Glenn so I googled him and the picture of him that popped up made me SCREAM. He looked like he could see directly into my soul, very dark sided.

Kate

Horseshoing around to where fact-checking is praxis again

Kate

Because Kamala’s book didn’t have a huge cultural moment based on a misunderstanding of the text?

Miranda Hester

It makes me so mad that he’s absolutely running to take over for Dewine and will probably be the next governor.

Hadley

Thanks for the fact check Jeff. I give this podcast 2 pinochios

Poppy Holla

Commenting so that Michael and Peter know that I thought you were saying, “Over their skeez”

Allen

Snopes’s “fact-check” of the condemnations of Trump’s response to the Charlottesville Nazi rally and murder of Heather Heyer…so dishonest and infuriating. Pure sophistry on that site’s part.

Lauren Kennedy

“I rate this one Figaro - Geppeto’s little cat” better get Peter the Pulitzer

Kristen North

Very disoriented because the main character in Bright Lights Big City was a fact checker at the New Yorker.

LaBeteNoire

These Pinocchio character references are gold

Sarah S

I haven't been paying too much attention to Glen Kessler but recently I read his fact check about Tim Walz' military service. It kind of boiled down to Walz' choice of words but there weren't any lies, per se. Even still, he gave Tim Walz 2 or 3 pinocchios. (And technically what he was fact checking was a bunch of Republicans' statements about Walz' military service, but he didn't ding any of the Republicans.) Now I went back to the article and there are 5510 comments yelling at Glen Kessler for being biased but I can't see his rating there anymore. I don't know if he removes ratings sometimes or if I'm just missing something.

Verbose Minimalist

Peter immediately pulling up the Wikipedia page for Pinocchio and waiting to drop that Monstro the Whale joke.

Cameron Hauer

Was hoping they would address one of the most baffling recent fact-checking fuckups: Snopes's recent determination that the claim (by Biden and others) that Trump praised neo-Nazis as "very fine people" is false.

Michael

During the 2019 UK general election the Conservative Party rebranded its Twitter account “factcheckUK” to pretend to be an independent fact checking organisation

Johnny 5

This is hilariously Orwellian.

Kiki

I agree, what a b*tch.

Ryan Baker

So......would it be in bad taste to send Kessler an e-mail (publicly available address FYI) just saying "Retire bitch?" Or would it be more tactful to say "Retire b*tch?"

Brian Goddard

I'm so glad this came out today, because Kessler's article today was atrocious. He argued that Harris lied when she said that teachers and firefighters pay higher effective tax rates than the richest Americans, saying "that's not how our taxes work, she's talking about unrealized gains." Which, yeah, that's what she's fucking talking about! Because we treat capital gains differently than income, the extremely wealthy pay lower taxes. I saw that check (two Pinocchios of course), was incensed, opened my email and saw the title of today's pod. I felt so vindicated.

CJ

You're meaning Jared Diamond, yes? I'd love an episode on GG&S

Brooke Chappell

I think that kind of Two Pinocchios check is Kessler saying, “Well, yeah, it’s TRUE, but she’s saying it like it’s a problem! That’s just the way of the world, man.” Status quo is always preferable to change.

Jeremy

As I understand it, Harris's 8% figure is nonsense. Suppose this year I earn $100k cash plus a $500k trading card. I immediately pay $30k in taxes, with the plan to sell the card when I retire and pay merely $50k in taxes on it. It would be disingenuous to say my tax rate is merely 5% ($30k/$600k) -- there is no world in which I see $600k while paying just $30k. Perhaps 30% ($30k/$100k) isn't the most accurate either, but at the very least you should estimate a rate closer to 13.3% ($80k/$600k) [small edits for clarity]

Rhianna79

To sum up: people advocated for fact changing b/c Fox and friends were winning the "Fair and Balanced" arguments and journalists are overworked to the point of not doing a great job. The Glenn picked up the ball b/c the right was so egregious with thier lies and he wanted to do course correction. Now he wants to pick on dems mostly b/c he's basically David Brooks and benefits from the status quo.

Gia

Describing Kessler as "a man who hasn't been touched by God's light" is the most devastating insult I've ever heard

Jerry Gu

Kessler is a great-grandson of Jean Baptiste August Kessler, an oil industrialist who stood at the basis of the oil supermajor Shell, and a grandson of Geldolph Adriaan Kessler, who helped create the Dutch steel industry through his involvement with Hoogovens.[81] He was born in Cincinnati, where his father, Adriaan Kessler, was an executive at Procter & Gamble,[82] and he attended high school there and in Lexington, Kentucky. Kessler's mother, Else Bolotin, was a psychologist[83] who in Lexington "helped women in that era of feminist awakening confront a society dominated by men."[84] Both of his parents were Dutch, and immigrated to the United States after marriage.[85] - Wikipedia

T

Perfect opportunity to title this after the “Katy Perry, please stop” meme

Elizabeth Bauer

Yes! So many people referenced her/told me to read her pregnancy and parenting books when I was pregnant! Especially wild since she has no credentials in either area. I know so many people who have drank while pregnant because the statistics show a little bit is fine 🙄

Eiren

Omg yes I felt like a force fed goose with all the Emily Oster stuff that was shoved at me as soon as I got pregnant. I just need her material to be given the Peter and Michael treatment!

Willow Wallis

Pushed me over the edge to finally join the Patreon!

Jenn De Jesus

Okay you win Michael… what on earth is speed running?

Ben Schwabe

Do people who have never skied understand what getting ahead of your skis means?

Remington Spoor

Peter’s ability to keep mocking Kessler’s system with various Pinocchio references as a running gag is just :chef’s kiss:

Peter

Only just heard this phrase, but assume it means you are airborne and moments away from eating shit.

potatonaught

speedrunning refers to the hobby and community around playing video games in a way that completes the game as quickly as possible. in some cases this involves playing the game with a high level of skill, in other cases it involves taking advantage of bugs or other exploits in the game. there's a bi-annual showcase and fundraiser of speed runners called Awesome Games Done Quick if you'd like to see some examples.

Laura Patterson

Kessler downplaying the PIT count is also such insane bullshit because everyone involved knows it’s an extremely low estimate even of actual unsheltered homelessness

Ben Schwabe

Getting ahead of your skis is when you have your weight too far forward which makes it hard to steer. It's easy to fix when you haven't crashed yet.

Cate Kneale

Kessler is not a Real Boy.

Cate Kneale

But Kessler is a Fact Checker - an entirely different job.

Cate Kneale

I want to recommend the podcast No God's, No Mayors to Peter so that he can find his mayor-obsessed people.

Sand

Same

Khadijah Abdul-Aleem

Literally fuming at the straight up lies about the child sexual abuse case. Like of course they can’t just give out the info all nilly willy you ASSHOLE

Brian Goddard

With all due respect, you're making the exact same mistake that Kessler made: you are making a statement on policy preference, not of fact. You're arguing about how much these gains should be taxed, but it's clear that for billionaires who use these assets as a form of income they aren't taxed. The 8% figure isn't "nonesense," it comes from people like Elon Musk who use their assets as collateral, so they are making real money from their assets, but whose gains will never be realized. Functionally this means that the "very richest Americans" (which you'll now are the people Harris was talking about) aren't taxed on their main source of income. You can disagree that changing that is good policy, but that doesn't make it false. It's incredibly telling that in his check, Kessler immediately starts talking about people with high incomes rather than people with excessive wealth, as though that's what Harris is talking about.

Astronomica

Fact check: Both Peter & Michael said, "Over your skis," not, "Ahead of..." Ben Schwabe is that fox guy that gave Pinnochio a cigar.

Matelda

This kinda explains the misfiring behind one of Biden's most unfathomable debate moments.

Megan Momorella

right like doctors can’t even tell people who their average patients are…let alone a victim of sexual abuse under 18 years old in a nationally debated case 😭😭 it would have been as simple as googling HIPAA

Jen Kilmer

Also whether charges are filed or not, a pregnant 10-yr-old is evidence of statutory rape.

Julie Ehlers

More of a main feed idea maybe, but I’d love it if you’d do the upcoming Chris Hayes book The Sirens’ Call. I know he’s viewed as trustworthy but the topic seems ripe for received wisdom rather than real research.

Juliane Schneider

You know what it is? You know what it is, Peter? low hiss> FREAKONOMICSSSSS<\low hiss>

Lindsay Larson Call

Absolutely! It is impossible to get an accurate PIT count with all the restrictions and in rural areas...

Laura Patterson

Also people just don’t trust they’re not gonna get locked up if they start answering questions from someone official

listenmissy

“Fuck you Glenn, you fucking dick.” lol forever

Steve Conover

Love this podcast but the echo coming from Peter’s new room makes it really hard to listen to for some reason …

Jeanne H-B

(Thank you for resurrecting the screaming “Darksided!!” Lady from some corner of my brain. So, I looked her up to find that kindly queers helped her open her mind and heart. She doesn’t think we’re demons. Cheers, y’all.)

Jeanne H-B

I say, the WaPo commenters are a fine shouty bunch there.

Kit Sedia

I Googled him too and he’s got the vibes of the man behind Winkie’s Restaurant… very unsettling.

Michael Hashizume

Every time one of them goaded the other to do a Kessler impression, I imagined them in Dune: "use The Voice"

Kate Dawson

I humbly request a Maintenance Phase x IBCK crossover on the book Breath by James Nestor. It is in dire need of some debunking a la Aubrey/Michael/Peter.

Catherine Brenner

I refuse to believe they didn't make up the word pedantry or are pronouncing it weird. No one says that

listenmissy

It’s in my vocabulary now.

Emma C

The stuff from Kessler about the ten-year-old girl from Ohio was really disgusting to be honest. He treated the story as inherently implausible, which is a clear sign he knows nothing about this issue. We know what happens when you ban abortion. In Paraguay more than 500 girls between 10 and 14 give birth every year. More than 1,000 girls age 10-14 do so each year in Honduras. In context, the fact that an OBGYN went on the record with this story is a pretty good indication it is true. And even if this particular doctor had fudged details of the story, stories like it are absolutely happening because they are just what happens when abortion is banned. But rather than saying “we were unable to independently verify the details of this case but here is some CONTEXT (supposedly his favorite thing) about birth statistics for this cohort in other places where abortion is banned,” Kessler just pretended this is an outrageous fairytale cooked up by the pro-choice left. Disgraceful and disgusting. Never let this man talk about abortion again.

coffin rehearsal

I would love an episode on the vacancy trutherism you mentioned

Fred Cohn

Michael’s contention that fact-checking started in 2004 deserves its own hefty set of Pinnochios. I do not know the origins of the practice, but I have worked in magazines since the mid 80s, and fact-checking has been a part of the process the whole time. In fact the protagonist of Jay McInerny’s 1984 novel Bright Lights Big City is a magazine fact-checker; McInerny himself previously worked as a fact-checker at the New Yorker. You guys should consider hiring one.

Kate

Fred you posted this three times

Kate

You must not talk to tedious people 😂

Elizabeth Barrett

They clearly say this wasn’t actually the invention and it’s just what journalists do. It’s just when it was called that. And they aren’t talking about internal fact checking like the New Yorker. But specifically political “fact checking”.

Elizabeth Barrett

Ugh this podcast is just an echo chamber. Literally. Unusual amount of echos.

alex

El*n M*sk episode when???? 🥲

Jeremy

Crazy that you have a patreon despite being wealthier than the bottom 40% of Americans combined.

Olivia Goodall

Hahaha ❤️ I regularly use the word pedantry… which prob says a lot about me! 🤭🤓

Olivia Goodall

“UNO double reverse pedantry” killed me 😂❤️ The cars are on the streetsssssssssss

Fred Cohn

Oops. I was on the subway and the signal was wonky.

zancakes

Every time, I thought Michael was saying "pet injury."

Leo Puppytime

This episode was great but so crazy-making. How is this the world we live in?

Jamie McAfee

This is, ironically, a great example of bad fact checking.

Jamie McAfee

(They are referring to columnists and media outlets that describe themselves as "fact checkers . . . as in suposedly objesrive referees who claim to evaluate the accuracy of what public figures say. They are pretty clearly not talking about internal fact checkers who help double check the work reporters do. Your post is incredibly pedantic to the point of being weird. Come on.)

Leo Puppytime

Andrew Kaczynski and his recent bullshit comes to mind as well. Such nonsense.

E

That they take the count in frickin January is a big problem. It’s below freezing most days in Chicago, where I live, and even more miserable at night. People are sleeping on trains, in public bathrooms, in a mutual friend’s basement, etc. It’s obvious why they don’t take the count in July.

Fred Cohn

I bow to no one in my admiration for Hobbes’s work. But what he says is “Fact-checking essentially gets invented in 2004.” Not “invented as a public-facing entity,” but “invented” full stop. If I were his editor, I would ask him to clarify that.

Jamie McAfee

I think the next two minutes of the podcast clarified that fine. I would be astonished by anyone who thinks he was saying that fact checking, as an editorial practice, was invented in 2004.

Fred Cohn

The implication was that reporters did their own fact-checking, not the publications they write for.

Janice O

It's a patreon episode bro. use ya brain

ellen

i fear that you do have to think when you consume media, buddy. hope this helps!

Sarah Mills

"This of course is a Donkey Boy" sent me

Kelsey

I was browsing the comments, reading yours, as Mike said this phrase 😂 Made it all the funnier

JCCTigris

we need to wait for Ol Musky's inevitable downfall, and then Mike can begin working on his Magnus Opus for us all :-)

alex

this didn’t age well im afraid

Elizabeth Weisenburger

Bonus episode suggestion I can't stop thinking about is a deep dive into the SBF crypto polycule 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

eleord

Explain why he's allowed to stay. Explain who the ppl are who tolerate this and encourage this stuff. Pls stop taking the failure of modern journalism for granted and actually explain why these things are occuring from the perspective of someone who literally worked in journalism. I also get that maybe asking for an alternative is asking too much but again of all people I feel like you guys could research and discuss what experts are saying abt how to improve the media ecosystem.

Irene

What did you want a CW on? I think they would be willing to do so, b/c Mike & Aubrey def. do that. So if you're specific on the thing you felt should have been CW'd, I bet it would be an easy fix.

Hannah Mueller

Fuck all the way off Glenn. His bullshit re: Ohio made me sick.

Guinevere Sims

I’m not a media person so I can’t answer for sure, but my experience in education has taught me it’s extremely hard (if not impossible) to change a bad system from the inside, and on the outside you have no power to affect change. I imagine it’s a similar problem with making the media better. Too many powerful people lack incentive to change because they benefit from the way things are now.

ryo

I worked in journalism and this is 100% true. Even your favorite nonprofit newsrooms can be like this. Like with all career paths, you only get so far if you irritate the higher ups. So by the time you get anywhere like a position of power you have already had to pick your battles so many times it’s exhausting. Remember that journalists are also people just trying to make a living. Lots of them are great, doing great work, and still underpaid and ignored.

ryo

Right? Like what the hell even is this argument?

ryo

This episode confirms for me that Peter should be the Joe Rogan of the left. Just the way he kept naming Pinocchio characters had me cracking up.

Kat Stratford

I work in homeless outreach and the point in time count is actually conducted outdoors. We typically interview almost exclusively people who are sleeping on the streets. We go out at five in the morning in order to catch them while they’re still camping. Lots people are filtering through transitional housing or shelters, but at the time that we do the point in time count, they are typically actually on the street. Just to fact check the fact check of the fact check.

Vee McCulley

How did y'all make me loathe someone so deeply that I didn't know existed an hour ago???? 😭

Amy Harth

I have a PhD and a focus of my research is media studies. I give presentations on what the structural problems are and what consumers and journalists can do to address how to think and write better without necessarily having to create a revolution in the field. But so far that information isn’t widely disseminated.

catbellybuttons

Uh uh uh Peter, we can't know for sure that he applies his own fake tan! He might have someone do it for him. Four pinnochios

Maggie

CONGRATS! You did it!!

Soph Emm

I’m just a massive self confessed pedant so it comes up a lot 😂

Soph Emm

I still have no idea what it means to be over one’s skis but it seems like a useful phrase based on how often it cropped up in this episode

Aiko

Ooh o got this one bestie 💙 coming from a neurodivergent girlie who had to start “INdexing” at around age 2: 🧿777💙 it means to take a step in your plan a bit too early/prematurely. [e.g/cinnamons]: 🛒)) before the 🐎// too big for ya britches, and not to mention these are just the most diluted phrases. Beging your litany against fear by starting to re-train your CNS central snervous system

Kristen Nassar

As a ski bum - it comes from the idea of someone taking a more aggressive (forward-leaning) stance than they have the skill to maneuver. A forward stance is a tool that expert skiers use on certain terrain, but being too far forward or back trips up beginners and intermediate skiers all the time. I think the phrase was initially used in finance to describe someone bungling a risky move. It’s now commonly used to describe anyone out of their depth.

audioboy

I listen to Maintenance Phase, but what is this third Hobbes pod I'm missing out on??

emily

The Pinocchio rating system is literally on the same level as the buckets of popcorn/soda rating system in On Cinema, At The Cinema. I’m almost wondering if Tim Heidecker was inspired by this, because this is just so insane that they’ve kept this for so long 😭😭😭

Amanda M

He used to be a cohost of You’re Wrong About

Jinxedstef

OMG, I only read the synopsis of the book and there are so many red flags that makes this perfect for a crossover episode!