Home
Creators
Search Recent Random
Posts
Search DMs Popular Hash Lookup Tags Random
Importer
Import FAQ
Register Favorites Keys Review DMs Logout
Community
Telegram ThePornDude
Home Creators Posts Import Register Favorites Logout

The "Epstein Is A Moral Panic" Moral Panic (Patreon)

Published:
2026-02-23 08:05:02
Imported:
2026-08

Downloads

Content

Oh, you're upset about the elite pedophile ring? Wait until you hear what people are saying about it on Bluesky.

You can play this episode directly through Patreon or use our RSS feed to add it to your podcast app. Here are the instructions from Patreon.

Leave your suggestions for future bonus episodes in the comments!

Comments

Loraine

God bless Michael for removing the mouth noises. I have never loved you more 😭😭😭

Ruth Robertson

Imagine reading 'My Uncle Oswald' by Roald Dahl and saying "hot damn! What a great idea!"

Bartek Tulinski

Surprisingly reactionary centrists in Poland just started writing articles like that

Jessie Hochhalter

Don’t you dare deprive us of Peter’s mouth noises. 🔥

Gil the Gilded Dragon

Turns out the eponymous angels of Los Angeles are like Belphegor and Aztaroth and Lucifer...

Relkia

re: larry summers he and epstein directly refer to the person summers was trying to sleep with as 'yellow peril' in a 2019 chat, it's like the first pdf that comes up for the term.

Shel

Very normal 3am post

Audrey

to be fair it was more like 1 am for michael

Inmognito

Currently feeling bad for the Patreon's (probably imaginary) 16yo subscribers, wondering what they did to get called out by the adults.

Bjoern

Guess I'm going to bed at 6am instead of 5am

Gil the Gilded Dragon

*lib voice* when people say conney is carb free they don't mean it literally, it is wild to think anyone would interpret that as canibalistic human sacrifice

Gil the Gilded Dragon

that said: i can't but feel anyone denying there being trafficking girls, especially with language that casts aspersions at the victims... they need their devices seized yesterday cause there's noncery in them phones but like the admin and epstein hangers on sorta bring upon themselves the wild comspiracy theorizing by being so fucking shady about this all

Jason Haines

Haidt is having a moment with his Anxious Generation. Do his claims hold up!

Mariah Davison

Peter!! My brother in misophonic rage!

Justin Avery

I’m with Peter on the hatred of excessive mouth noises, particularly chewing food. It really hurts.

Justin Avery

Misophonics of the world unite and chew quietly.

Ellie

Where does Epstein's comprehensive network of creep intellectuals leave One Book Theory? You can probably piece the original One Book together from the full Epstein files like linguists reconstruction Proto Indo European.

Ben Schwabe

Bard College's community is having a moment regarding Leon Botstein, Bard's president of five decades and pal of Epstein. The college was about to throw a gala in his honor, which is still on. The board has hired a law firm to review Leon's behavior because they're also Epstein class individuals who lack the moral fiber to just fire him. The alumni Facebook pages are in a tizzy. Leon's handling of on campus sexual assaults makes a lot more sense when you realize he thinks of young women as fundamentally disposable decorations for rich men.

Ronin Fredricson

Their "I had no idea Epstein was comitting crimes!" means "I didn't think this stuff was illegal for rich people!"

Dylan Stephens

Epstein Island Harlem Shake is one of the most cursed things I’ve ever heard

MmKay

“If you control for cousins” 😂

Claire Kaelin

Jizz-laine Maxwell is the only accurate mispronunciation you’ve ever made michael

Sara B

“Underage women” are children, Peter. They weren’t having sex with underage women, they were raping children.

Amy

Misophonia is a sign of creative genius

Hoovielou

Oh god I hope so 😭

mguin

A moral panic with evidence supporting it is not a moral panic - ask anyone who went thru the Satanic Panic. Never any evidence of Satan worship but a lot of adults coaching kids to say it and some actual child abuse covered up. Had a church lady swear up and down in the 90s that she saw a kid float (she said this to shut me up in class, which, y'know, fair). People did all *that* moral panic to avoid being honest about child abuse, too.

Hayes M.

It's really upsetting how impossible it is to tell how much of Elon's cringe vibe, weird public body behavior, sense of humor, and social obliviousness are from his autism. Because the tech bro billionaire condition only ever compounds those factors. And the alleged ketamine addiction. I am also autistic, obligatory disclaimer.

Leigh M

Every time I listen to this podcast my main takeaway is that America is so fucking weird. You guys need an intervention or an exorcism or something...

Kelsey

One of the things that I find especially abhorrent about the commentary from so many media figures is the quibbling over whether these were children or very recently legal adults. Even if we accept Mcardle’s assertion that 10-15 years ago it was super normal to be sexually predatory toward 16 year olds but we’ve grown as a society since, the new argument is that it’s totally fine if the victim is 18+. The message is that once a girl turns 18 and becomes a legal adult, she is fair game for abuse and exploitation, that state and society have no responsibility to protect her, and that anything that happens is her fault because she is an adult just like those 50 year old millionaires and billionaires who predated on her. Like Peter and Michael, I too spend very little time around 16 year olds. But I am a college professor, so I spend a ton of time with 18-22 year olds. While they grow up a lot over those four years, they are essentially still children at 18, and if you are a middle aged person socializing a bunch with very young adults, you are also a massive creep.

AliceMerray

There's no way other men weren't also abusing the girls Epstein provided. It's clear to me that there's a level of 'rich' that's appallingly bad for people because they stop thinking the rules apply to them. But in addition, Epstein *wanted* those men to take part because that how he got compromising stuff on them. Anyone who actually did refuse probably got cut off in short order.

Alison

Peter, you're correct, there are certain people out there just terrified of really tall women.

Alexander Franjie

Did you read the book Unmask Alice? (Goes way into this and other topics) Sarah Marshall did an episode with the author, the book was worth the read after listening to the episode.

S

There are still individuals and even entire cultural belief systems that claim men cannot control themselves and that women or girls are responsible for what happens to them. There are also people who try to normalize relationships between teenagers and much older adults. But regardless of cultural framing, it is immoral and should be illegal to lure minors under false pretenses such as modeling jobs, money, or social access and then coerce them into sexual acts they do not want to perform. When I was a teenager twenty years ago, grown men pursuing teen girls was widely considered disturbing and likely criminal where I lived. If Epstein and the people around him truly believed they were doing nothing wrong, they would not have relied on secrecy, manipulation, intimidation, and layers of protection. That level of concealment signals awareness of wrongdoing. This also was not limited to sexual misconduct. Epstein openly expressed interest in eugenics and ideas about improving humanity through selective reproduction, including spreading his own genetics. Eugenics has a long racist history rooted in the belief that some people are biologically superior to others and it has justified forced sterilizations and racial hierarchies in the past. The combination of sexual exploitation, extreme wealth, and pseudoscientific beliefs about genetic superiority reflects something far more disturbing than older men with questionable preferences. It was an abuse of power tied to deeply unethical and discriminatory ideology.

Help!

At this point we need a "Coalition of the Willing" and regime change. Please

Lindsay Straw

Yeah, I'm sure part of it was just they were using the language that's being used in the media, but I was a little surprised they didn't catch themselves on this one. I think it's really important that anyone not trying to excuse this behavior make sure to say children every. single. time.

Budget Hireling

Wow I bet Peter feels foolish for endorsing Elon for president now that he’s in the Epstein files.

Matelda

Good episode but a couple things: 1) Even if there are no emails from Bill Clinton in THE Epstein files, there are many old pictures & records of him partying with Epstein, so it can't really be disputed that he's as implicated as anyone else by Douthat's Razor. 2) I disagree that everything out there about Clintons must already be known because Trump's DOJ wouldn't hide it. Sorry but the Clintons are extremely powerful, the most directly powerful people implicated besides Trump himself, and used to control these & other intelligence agencies themselves. We don't know what they did to cover for themselves then, or who is still loyal to them. Second, they're probably some of the least idiotic known Epstein associates. No proof of them eating babies' faces or whatever but the absence of releases on them doesn't say anything, good or bad.

Matelda

3) You kinda touched on this but ANYONE saying "there is no evidence of bla bla in the files" is 100% lying. The vast majority of files have not been released & there's no reason to believe that what's left is LESS incriminating than what's already out there. Also many pundits are saying "no evidence of ___" when there is actually DIRECT evidence of ___. McArdle's entire career is JUST defending the rich & powerful. They are JUST LYING for the purpose of MISLEADING.

Samantha

Michael, just to here to say that I have noticed how you edit out the mouth noises!! Overall, the sound and editing in your podcasts is impeccable and I always find other podcasts lacking in this area.

brel

Like women in any field, the women in the Epstein files have to go twice as hard as their loathsome pervert male counterparts to gain respect

amloth

unrelated to this very serious episode but I feel it is my duty to relay that Peter and his Swarovski Shrek have done numbers on Tumblr and it is now a full site meme

Violence Zack

I would kill for an exoventiolution 😢

CJ

Agree, it’s actually amazing as I believe Michael just does all that stuff for his pods by himself. Other podcasts with whole production teams and editors don’t have audio quality like this

Amy

I FUCKING LOVE you guys!!! And I’m not even a lesbian!

Violence Zack

☝️This. And I think it speaks a lot to our culture how everyone can agree that having sex with children is wrong or that rape is wrong, but as soon as you try to define either of those things everything unravels. Suddenly people are coming out of the woodwork to argue someone's age was "close enough" or "well, they got paid for it". Everyone opposes these things on their face, but I guess people don't really think about WHY these things are bad and what our broader cultural attitude is towards them. One minute someone's saying "execute all pedophiles" the next minute they're arguing that the age of consent should be lowered 🙄🤦‍♂️

Publiq Quaker Friend

agreed!! it was full body cringe to hear people pruportedly on the side of vicitms refer to their assaults as a consensual act and "young women" to mean children. w must NOT repeat this stuff: csem and SA of a minor is what's happening, not euphemisms

gretchen anderson

If 16yos are “around” the first question I have is “why aren’t you in school?”

Matelda

I get the concern but speaking for myself i am not listening to this podcast if it isn't lighthearted. I know where to go for stuff that enrages me.

Matelda

I dunno where you live but if you're British, you can have a seat.

Julia Sikora

As someone who edits a podcast and spends waaaaay too much time removing mouth sounds, I feel *very* seen

Mia Jackman

this is kind of fair. also tho… i am grateful for smart but light hearted takes from them especially when it comes to current events. they did this whole episode because people are trying to brush this off.

Matelda

Since he's gotten (apparently) weirder over time, i think it's more to do with ketamine and microwaving his brain on twitter. But to me, the most unbearable aspects of his personality are clearly effects of narcissism.

Alb the Builder

Oh no Michael!!! don’t edit out Peter mouth smacks manually - use Izotope RX De-click, it eliminates that “NPR spitty click” sound 👍

Matelda

This bothers me too. Adult women can be victims of rape, abuse, and sex trafficking. But anyway, victims in Epstein's ring were often 12-14, sometimes younger. It's completely dishonest for McArdle to pretend they were all at least 16, as well as to pretend that was acceptable in 2008. And she may be dumb but she's not that dumb. She knows what she's doing.

Mike Kangal

Just swap "people" for "men" and delete "really tall" and yeah

Joseph Hendryx

Elon puffing up his refrigerator chest and using the words “complicated” and “moreover”

Song-Kinsley Productions

Fully understand why he didn’t bring it up in this episode but I would like it to be addressed in the next one please

MHW

I totally agree that obviously, not everyone--even every man--who went to a party with Epstein is a pedophile. BUT. I think about it like if you have a friend who's a big drinker. And he has a party--lots of the folks going are probably drinkers too. SURE, there's going to be people who won't drink, but they know that others are. People hang out with people with common interests.

Carly Gove

thank god you guys are talking about this bc it’s all i can think about anyway

Dick Waglin

Damn didn't have a Virgil Texas mention on my bingo card

sistertotherain9

I'm sorry, where did they say that? The only time they said anything close was when they were quoting the people they're criticizing.

nate of the living dead

After listening to the In Bed with the Right episode about Moira, by far the biggest surprise in this episode to me is how someone as terminally online as Michael knows who Virgil Texas is, but needed an explanation of what Operation Paperclip was

Cate Kneale

I'm trying not to get blackpilled on humanity, so instead I'll share the only response to Epstein that I liked: apparently he emailed Dean Radin, a sort of parapsychology author, asking about how to have paranormal experiences and Radin just replied with a picture of a bent spoon. I really hope that was sarcastic, even if he didn't quite feel able to call Epstein a dirtbag creep.

Cate Kneale

I know, I work at a university and the idea of having sex with a student is so creepy and alien to me. Every centrist pundit should be forced to talk to a 16 year old just to realise how wrong they are. It also wasn't okay 10 years ago.

Emily

As a tall woman I can confirm that there are indeed people who are in their bones just scared shitless of tall women.

Los Angeles City Rat

The alternative that I'm seeing to the 'Epstein is overblown' thing is people saying 'The Pizzagate people were right all along!' which is driving me nuts

Misha Sheppard

Plz do a Peter Attia episode (maybe more a maintenance phase topic) My dad loves him and ive always been suspicious he’s a big ol grifty 🥲

Horseloverfat

Many pundits very astutely wielding Hannah Arendt’s thesis, i.e., “this is too banal to be evil. Evil is shocking and abnormal.”

Soph Emm

Petition for an end of year compilation episode of Peters mouth noises

Heidi

Ahh omg I also ordered and immediately read that book after that episode! So fascinating - I think about it often

Cate Kneale

I think we could find a lot of his ways endearing if he didn't have such an abhorrent belief system.

Jamie K.

I mean, an exorcism couldn't hurt at this point.

KJ Reese

27 min into listening and I get a NYT notification that Attia resigned from CBS… keep saying names guys I think we can get some more 🤪

Heather Moritz

This!! The reason we have Epstein files is because he was a diligent dirt collector.

Bosire Oroko

Your favourite moral panic’s favourite moral panic

Jenna Silverman

On the day that this episode dropped, Peter Attia "steps aside" from his contributor role at CBS. Is this IBCK manifesting consequences for creeps?

HZ

I wonder if the men i used to know who were obsessed with conspiracies as well as constantly dogged on the MeToo movement will ever connect the dots

Jacob King

Norman Finkelstein was invited to meet Epstein by one of his colleagues. He sent a reply saying Epstein and Dershowitz should both be strangled and cc-ed the guy’s wife and daughter.

Courtney A

Thank you for mentioning... I just searched the Internet for Swarovski Shrek, went down the rabbit hole, and literally laughed until I cried.

Joy

I really appreciate Michael pointing out that it is still not acceptable behavior even if the victims weren’t all underaged! Feels like a strange excuse for pundits to grab onto to say there isn’t actually proof of underage girls etc. in these files. The people Epstein and friends were abusing could have been older than them and it would have still been an abusive and exploitative system of mass rape! (And I also appreciate the time Michael spends editing out mouth sounds)

elke shultz

Misophonics thank you, Michael, for your dedication to removing little mouth noises… it is something that will little make or break a podcast for us

Mary Y.

When I was like maaaaaybe 22 I went to a party for one of my brother’s friends. Now this friend was decently older than my brother who was four years older than me. And I get to the party and I can see several teenagers, like kids still in high school, that I recognized from my neighborhood. And I was like 1) I have no desire to be at the same party as 17 year olds and 2) less so one hosted by a man in his mid-30s and we all left. It’s amazing to me that people think it’s somehow fine just because they’re technically over the age of consent or whatever. It’s was gross to me at the time.

Celine

A few hours after this comes out and Attia is gone at CBS. Good job!

John W

Wil Weldon does the opposite for his I Hate Bill Maher podcast: He takes Bill's lip smacks out and then edits them together for a brief yet interminable segment on his show

Lexi House

I lost my MIND when I saw peter on my tumblr dash

Bailey

I find it important to remember that while Larry Summers was emailing Jeffrey Epstein for advice on how to sleep with his college-age intern, he was also publicly suggesting the reason we don’t see more women in the upper echelons of science and mathematics could be innate differences in aptitude (you can search “larry summers women in stem” for the transcript of his 2005 remarks)

Elva Redwood

Great episode, thank you. But - “having sex with underage girls” is rape. I wish you would use the accurate word. How we talk about abuse is important.

James Phipps

Pedophile cults don’t send emails, they take over Utah.

Matt

Operation Paperclip was specifically for Nazi rocket scientists, there were others for Nazis in other areas - Alsos was for nuke stuff, in particular. Edit: also, I’m convinced that they’re going to record Michael dying mid-wheeze/laugh.

Rae

Agree! I would also say an 'underage girl' is a child.

James Phipps

See: NATO’s first Secretary General, the Gehlen Organization & the DDR’s entire ruling class. To start.

James Phipps

Agreed. In fact, “Donald Trump Rapes Kids” seems somehow true and not at all unhinged to say. The fact it’s our reality on the other hand…

TE

It's interesting how the conflation of sex work and trafficking has come full circle. For years non-trafficked sex workers have been accused of being trafficked or trafficking others, for the purpose of criminalizing all sex work. Now people are trying to pretend the girls/women who were trafficked by Epstein were just sex workers, as if they hadn't been lured in with false promises of a massage therapy class or modelling career. And these same people pretending Epstein's victims weren't trafficked probably have no problem with those bogus anti-trafficking organizations harassing and trying to criminalize non-trafficked sex workers.

Fenstar

yes yes!! There are some podcasts, and even audiobooks that I cannot listen to because of mouth noises.

elke shultz

The amount of TedX talks i turn off because the speaker isn’t a professional & doesn’t understand how wet their mouth is 🥲

Catherine Blouin

Ghislaine is supposed to be pronounced like Michael did. The way everyone else is pronouncing sounds like Guylaine, another French name. Both are very common French names. Her parents were morons.

Astraea

Idk, I think the thing that bothers me *way more* than his weirdness is that he tends to use it as a shield or excuse for objectively shitty behavior. "You can't criticize me, I'm autistic" is not an excuse I have ever heard any of the autistic people in my life actually use. He may be autistic, and that may make him socially weird, but his being a piece of shit is just an actual choice that he keeps making.

Astraea

Having also taught 18-22 year-olds quite recently . . . yeah, they're functionally children compared to anyone older than 25. If a professor in my department started dating an undergrad I cannot express how fast he'd be out on his ass. Also, not for nothing, but just because you've turned 18 doesn't mean that suddenly all grooming and abuse stop, or you suddenly gain the ability to walk away, etc. If someone has been groomed and abused from the age of 14, then guess what? That's still happening even though they're 18! They are still being victimized, and they still need help. The willful blindness to the very real likelihood that a lot of the "legal" young women in this situation were probably longtime victims had been sending my blood pressure through the roof lately.

Astraea

Jen Gunter wrote an article on him a couple weeks ago after his name surfaced. Should be free on The Vajenda.

Alex Sarna

but the dow is up???

bee

Norm ✊🏼

bee

💯 Elon chooses to be a piece of shit. His autism has nothing to do with that.

Katie

Truly great episode and an excellent read

Kay

Was just about to recommend the same thing! Buy Izotope RX! It will make your editing workflow SOOO much easier Michael! I always had RX running on every vocal channel for podcast editing. Mouth de-click, de-ess, and de-plosive are the holy trinity of good podcast audio. :D

La chamade +

Justice for Mike! I’m French and my second name is Ghislaine and his pronunciation is pretty good

Marlis

😂

Ellen James

I hate the phrase “had sex with underage girls” No. That’s rape. I love this podcast (as well as their other ones) but every time one of them said this it made my stomach turn.

Symone West

Yes! Also the survivors have literally said that they were minors at the time?! Can we like, try listening to women? Just a fun little challenge

Maja

love you guys but please don’t say “women”, “underage women”- they are children, and they were raped. No one would ever say “have sex with underage men”

Hannah Grace

As another tall woman, it took me far too long to realize what a boon this is for us! Now I love it. But it’s wild how men specifically can’t handle tall women.

Kennedy Morrison

For anyone who is interested in the commentary/full retelling, they talk about it in the intro of the 5-4 subscriber episode about Pam Bondi that just dropped today lmao. Worth it to listen!

Emily

Totally! I worry a little less about being kidnapped bc I would definitely be a more difficult target. (Which is like, fucked up that I have to think about that??? but also that’s showbiz, baby.)

Hannah Grace

I was genuinely surprised that Michael thinks people would find Peter LESS sexy with more mouth noises 😅 come on now, Michael… you know how horniness works.

N. Bowles

as a BOWLES no one says it right 😔🥴

Anna Leske

You both have misophonia! How on earth could you listen to Olivia Nuzzi talk??

Arlo

Would love your take on The Creative Act by Rick Rubin 😊

Geoffrey Murry

I have been waiting for a Megan McArdle episode. Please please please!

Big Spitter

Rich Pedophile Poor Pedophile

Ari

Yes

Collembola

I feel like these files have shown that so much of Internet culture and reactionary centrism at large were just attempts to run cover for the disgusting sex crimes of the elite. Most of the implicated politicians campaigned on "law and order" while knowingly breaking it everyday. If none of the Dems campaign on bringing justice to all those people, then I'm not really sure we can call them a true opposition.

Sara B

Peter said it once and I know “underage girls” was said a few times.

Jenna Jerman

Michael editing out mouth sounds is truly doing the lord’s work. An angel on this earth.

Olivia Biles

I can’t remember if it was one his pod or on you’re wrong about, but I know you’ve talked about the wayfair stuff before Michael…. Is your stance the same now?

Joan and Sarah are Welly Hammfans

In the future, maybe consider not saying a slur in reading back what someone says? It was pretty jarring to hear the r word out of nowhere

Ari

Absolutely a word that should be censored just the way you wrote it

Aryeh

As a lesbian who listens to this show, I actually appreciate you all representing the misogynistic beliefs that we mascs so often have to fight to find space for in our community. You give voice to the voiceless 🤌

Gretchen Sprinkle

White male oligarchs have always trafficked girls. When they could no longer legally do it with "fancy girls," it doesn't take a big leap of faith to think they found another way to do it 🤷🏻‍♀️ In fact, I think it takes more imagination to think they stopped when slavery was abolished.

Rebecca Taylor

Yeah, I kept waiting for one of them to say that it was rape of a child, but it never came up. I am glad they addressed the inability of any of the survivors to give consent, given the power dynamics.

Alex Hausman

It’s surprising to me that there’s not more discourse about the fact that these men were assaulting boys too. I think it’s easier for a patriarchal society to dismiss the Epstein allegations when it’s conceived of as “only” women and girls

Veronica Erick

Please do “a women makes a plan” by Elon musks mom

Molly

Unrelated and probably a redundant request but can you do Scott Galloway’s book so I can slam dunk on my mom

e

Yep. I was in grad school when he made Summers made those remarks, and they were controversial at the time. But like with the 'Me too'-reactionary stuff, then it seemed like just someone making a bad, retrograde sort of argument. Part of what's so stunning, that this episode and other news has laid out, is how self-interested those arguments were. Not just someone voicing bad ideas they had, but actively trying to shape public discourse in a way that upheld the very oppressions they were invested in perpetuating.

shelby

What was getting me was people on TikTok being like there’s cannibalism!! they’re eating babies!!!! when there’s no proof and the actual horrid crimes are being brushed aside. is the truth not bad enough?

Astraea

It's not that the truth is "not bad enough," it's that the truth might require them to examine the suspect behavior of people in their own lives that they think of as good people. Much easier to pretend that all predators are insane monsters who live in dark alleys and join cults - then you can pretend it'll never happen to you and yours or, more importantly, could never be *committed* by you and yours.

Julia Sero

Guys - there's only "no evidence" if you don't believe anything the victims have said.

AW

This - people keep using the phrase moral panic but they mean to say moral outrage - like they're using moral panic as a synonym or something but by definition that's incorrect

Lydthekidmaybenowmid

Omggg Michael I can't believe you don't know operation paperclip! That has literally helped shape medical and scientific research in the US! We been Nazis y'all.

Sierra Wilson

That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking as well. What seemed retrograde was actually quite sinister and self interested.

Candace Bey

“So like, a mom-and-pop pedophilia ring” 😭😭😭 ridiculoussssssss hahahha

Shanda Wells

I fully expect Shrek banter at the next Patreon. I paid for that thing, dangit!

Sarah Bear

💯 Came here to say this. You can’t “have sex” with children.

Gabs

Around the 24 minute mark - not trying to be any type of way but as a podcast that has specifically covered how terrible the right is to trans folks, the “Michael is a gay man so he hates vagina” jokes are really offputting to me as a trans guy. Love the podcast but had to take a pause after that one.

Leandra J

Can we please say the word “rape” instead of “sex with” when talking about these victims….

Leandra J

Came here to say this too

Emily

The part about Soon-Yi is disturbing and sad. I kinda felt like Peter was punching down with that one.

Olive Kuhn

As a bard grad no one is surprised about Botstein. He was known for comparing a female college student getting drunk at a party alone to himself walking into a nazi rally with his kelzmer band.

CarrieJ

"You're actually kind of like a smacky individual" needs to be immortalized somewhere.

Liz

You talk about discarding claims that are "obviously false" but nothing is obvious to me at this point. I would never have expected there to be a private island for raping teen girls, some of whom described their time there as literal sex slavery. I never would have expected so many rich and powerful people to be implicated (even Bill Gates??). It's crazy how similar it is to Qanon. Now when arguing with my Qanon-adjacent family I have to resort to saying "that's a fake conspiracy, here's the real conspiracy. It's almost exactly the same except it implicates your side instead of mine."

Astraea

Also think that one through my dude, you are basically saying that you knowingly host Nazi-like groups on your campus with no consequences or objections and no attempt to protect your other students from them. That reflects SUPER well on you, for sure....

AMP

Yeah ok. Gonna echo the comments here that Michael and Peter are a bit too flippant and thoughtless about entertaining themselves with some pretty shitty language in this ep. Frequently the nature of this podcast is ‘listen to these safe woke guys dunk of shitbags’ but this episode in particular is a self dunk. Not for nothing it’s a pretty lazy centristy mode operate in - so eager to hear yourselves speak you don’t think about what you are saying. Or why. Will Michael and Peter care that they lose paying listeners because they don’t self-check their tendencies to bro out? I doubt it.

jasmine hale

Genuinely I've seen very little specific coverage about the Epstein files that doesn't devolve into "they're eating babies". It would be nice to hear actual reporting of what's being released rather than dunking on centrist takes I've never even heard of.

mguin

Well, I don't mean to say that the hosts are using it incorrectly (they know what they're doing), more to emphasize how much we've been here before. We're here every couple years in Regular Times when news anchors get bored and go after real or imagined teen trends.

Hoglet

Yes, thank you!

Jadalyn .Hayworth

Agreed, that part disturbed Me considering she was groomed by her husband who was her ADOPTED FATHER! Like she did say some heinous things but to imply that she’s somehow worse than these literal pedophiles, even as a joke was kinda gross.

Maggi

I’m really surprised and disappointed by this one…. It was disturbingly dismissive of the women who have come forward with the horrors they experienced at the hands of these disgusting rapists. Did you two read what these kids were writing in their journals? Your take on this suggests that you don’t believe the victims because it’s just “too awful to be true”. There are massive groups of regular people out there creating and sharing child sexual abuse content, why is so hard for you to believe billionaires wouldn’t be able to take that to a whole new level?

Laura

yeah. its pretty gross to hear that line echoed from people who ought to know better. there is no such thing as an "underage woman". its raping little girls. the flippancy in this one really got to me. canceling my patreon because of it.

Kate Duffy

“You’re kind of a smacky individual” killed me

Jaimie Cuzens-Sutton

It's so deeply satisfying to hear an adult man say that if there were 21 yr old BOYS paid to be at event, drinking and offering massages, that it would be CREEPY AND WEIRD. 👏🏼👏🏼 It is EXHAUSTING to constantly hear grown men defend predatory behaviour by saying 'but they're 18/adults'.

Emily

Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seemed like neither Peter or Michael had even looked at or read any of what's actually been released of the files..?

Jess A

So disturbing to hear people say “having sex with women” when referring to literal pedophilia and rape and probable murder

Monika Walker

Guys... "Sex with underage women"? there are no underage women, these are children. There is no sex with children, only rape. This is really disappointing from two people I respect so so much and have learned so much from.

PBear

Michael please learn about the Underground Fourth Reich

Ellen

Love your work Michael and Peter. Your analysis is usually both insightful and kind which is a refreshing combination. However, I don’t think you lived up to your own standards on this one. A frustrating part of watching media grapple with the Epstein files has been the inability of most to name the core enabling structure. Much the analysis has focused on of class, implying the reason rich men abused children was because of the unique corruption of power. That misses the wood for the trees. The scale of the abuse and its cover-up was absolutely enabled by the elitism of those involved, but it does not explain the roots of the permission structure that allowed this to happen. Women and children are hurt all the time by men who do not have access to the same degree of societal power. Our assault is not limited to settings where there is a class difference. The core reason that these crimes occurred is male entitlement to women and children’s bodies. Aka, patriarchy. No media analysis outside of feminist circles seems to be directly naming this. Your analysis fell into this trap. You frequently mentioned the class and money of those involved and implied this was the causative factor. I didn’t hear any discussion of the central gendered dynamics, making this analysis incomplete. I think this unconsciously caused the language issue that many other commenters have noted. You, like many many others, inaccurately used permissive language like ‘underage women’ instead of ‘children’, and ‘sex with’ instead of ‘rape’. Made me cringe each time I heard it. This was a real shame because you both usually do such an amazing job! It’s rare to find two male media commentators who are generally aware of societal privilege, and it’s a big part of what normally makes your analysis so spot on. This episode feels like a bit of a blind spot shared with mainstream media. If anyone is interested, Professor Kate Manne writes about this brilliantly on Substack- go check her work out!

Lindsay Masten

I mean it's not implying she's somehow worse, it's implying she's just as bad. People who have bad things happen to them turn into bad people.

jane deaux

Omg thank you for editing out the mouth noises

Elva Redwood

Thanks for so articulately naming this. I absolutely agree.

Elva Redwood

Decoding the Gurus does a lot on Galloway.

Anna

The journalists downplaying the Epstein files aren’t misled or stupid, they know that under authoritarianism there is only room for writers who flatter the regime. It’s a calculated bid to maintain relevancy as journalism has one foot in the grave.

Riley Brennan

Hi please stop saying “sex with underage girls!” It’s rape, not sex.

Chloe Cross

I learned I had misophonia because of my hatred of mouth noises. Misophonia led me to other neurodivergent dx

Ari ✊🍉🌈

i am writing a LONG email, Emily! i’m disappointed that Michael “i read 4 books & have 80 pages of notes” Hobbes wouldn’t wonder why tf the victim of grooming talks about a 15yo using groomer language?? it pissed me off & i am so glad to see people pushing back in the comments!

Bryony Dee

Yeah, this episode isn't it. In addition to what the other comments are saying, hearing two men chuckling their way through this issue was very upsetting. I actually stopped listening halfway through the day this ep came out, and I've come back to comment because I feel really hurt and disappointed by the way you felt you had the right to speak on this as you did, using the language you used.

Ronin Fredricson

What's frustrating is also that sure, a lot of people "in the Epstein Files" may not have gone on his plane or assaulted any girls or known at all that anything like that was happening but EVEN in the most charitable of lights it's still a HUGE problem because he was connected to SO MANY PEOPLE. Even in a hypohetical world where Epstein never did a single sex crime it still shines a bright ass light on just how incestuously interconnected everybody in that class bracket is. Even if you knew him but didn't know about the girls and you did nothing wrong per se you're still a part of a huge problem.

Bianca Blackhall

I found myself baulking at different moments of this episode. Like all women, when I was a girl of 12, 14, 16, 18 I was always aware of the predatory nature of men. I felt it all around me and I frequently had to dodge it. I still do I think perhaps maybe you guys could go this episode again, adding insight and information which is why I come to this podcast and generally enjoy it when I do. Just going to put this in here "I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks” -Ruth Bader Ginsburg Next week is international women’s day.

Guinevere Sims

Re: “sex with underage girls used to be more socially acceptable.” So, I watched the ANTM Netflix doc and was particularly disturbed by the moment where one of the models calmly stops the shoot to say she’s being sexually harassed by one of the male models on set with her, and everyone basically yells at her for interrupting things and tells her to stop complaining. Like a room fully of 50 people snapping *photos* of this dude grabbing her and making moaning sounds and no one cared. It was incredibly disturbing. But disturbed me most was that I actually remember watching that at 15-16 when it aired. But I can’t remember how I took that message in as a kid, or any conclusions I came to about it at all—which I finally decided told me everything I needed to know about what I absorbed. That moment stuck with me, and then I remembered. Tyra Banks started ANTM and was a Victoria’s Secret model. Victoria’s Secret was owned by Les Wexner. Epstein used to *literally* go to Victoria’s Secret runway shows. Ugh they even did shows with 14 year old models on the runway in lingerie wearing pigtails and carrying prop lollipops. They started a preteen line—if I recall correctly, at the urging of Epstein himself. I’m not saying Tyra was like taking cues from Epstein or anything or even that they interacted directly. She’s a garbage person, but I think she comes by that honestly from her own inclinations. But I am saying that she came up in a culture that was shaped by epstein’s perversions. And then she went on to make a show that was highly influential for teen girls on how they saw femininity and social norms of behavior. Victoria’s Secret too, as a brand. All those “Juicy” pants girls used to wear?! (Not slut shaming, just saying, that shit came from a specific place, and it wasn’t us as teenage girls who developed that marketing) All *directly* shaped by Epstein. So returning to the initial point—obvs Epstein isn’t the singular person responsible for all of the early oughts misogyny directed towards teen girls. But maybe, just maybe, he was a key part of the reason *why* it was seen as “more socially acceptable” for older men to “date” teen girls at the time. Damn man. Even the facts of what we know to be true go deep enough. We don’t need conspiracies. That shit got me for a few days. What a sick time to be a teen girl.

Riley

About Soon-yi: it’s way worse than you guys think. She didn’t say that about a 15 year old girl cuz she thinks she can because she’s a woman. It’s because she thinks that 15 year olds are women who can seduce and affect grown men. She is clearly still in denial about the fact that she is a victim, so in her mind, Weiner’s victims cannot be either. She empathizes with Weiner because she probably remembers “how hard it was for Woody when I was pursuing him”. She likely “had to comfort and convince him to believe in their relationship, and saw him lose everything to stay with her”. (Quotations because it’s obviously deranged) As a close friend of someone who was groomed and a high school teacher who works with teens, these girls see themselves as the ones with the power, who convince a great older guy to risk their reputation on them. They also feel more indebted to them any time someone doubts his intentions in the relationship, because she thinks it’s her fault people think he’s a bad guy. She sees the grown men as the helpless vulnerable ones who can be cancelled and are putting their lives on the line for their “relationship”, while the girl was being ungrateful for the sacrifice. It’s really really fucked up. Made me really sad to hear, then bummed to hear it reduced to “maybe women feel more able to say terrible stuff than men”. Yes what Soon Yi said was insane but you must understand that that’s how she viewed her own victimization. I’m sure any other women in the Epstein orbit are similarly in denial about abuse. Not an excuse for their behaviour but an explanation of it.

Guinevere Sims

Dude THANK YOU I knew I remembered “Larry Summers” from something more specific. That’s been bothering me for weeks.

Riley

Love this cuz, normal people have always been creeped out by that stuff! Just because powerful men are perverts they’ve been able to push a narrative that hanging out with children is just now a weird thing. I’m a teacher in my 20s, I can’t relax around teens! They’re the same age as my students. It’s creepy as hell! It’s so easy to get them to look up to you! The thought of trying to “hang out” with them is so fucking creepy!

Kat

As the first episode I'm hearing after signing up for the Patreon, I have to agree with the user who said "This episode ain't it." And stop saying underage women- girls. They're children. Hoping the other subscriber episodes restore some faith.

Tyler

The comments made me think this episode was going to be awful…and it wasn’t. Micheal and Peter are very clearly disgusted by what’s happening in the Epstine files. They call out the pedophilia and rape. The language policing in the comments isn’t engaging with the actual substance of the episode. I’m not sure why some people in these comments are so committed to misinterpreting this episode.

Tyler

Evidence is a legal term. There isn’t any evidence that Epstine literally sold women. That’s a fact. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t believe the women and victims, but it is important to get the facts correct.

Tyler

Also, it is becoming very clear that some listeners can’t distinguish between when Micheal and Peter are stating their own options versus simply quoting someone else lol.

Ari ✊🍉🌈

incredibly well said, Riley! Soon-Yi has only known trauma, grooming, and being the odd one out. she is STILL trapped by Woody Allen and the society that has allowed him to keep making movies. also, the WORDS of a woman are never more heinous than the ACTIONS of a man.

Kristine

I’ve been listening to Michael’s various podcasts for years because he typically is very thoughtful in his word choices. I was so disappointed to hear you both say things like “underage women” - they are girls, children; “having sex with underage girls” - girls cannot consent. It’s rape, not sex. Over and over again you chose absolutely awful language to describe the rape and assault of children.

Emily

You're right it wasn't awful and I don't think anyone in the comments has said anything unreasonable. Listeners are naming parts that didn't land for them and expressing disappointment.

Red

"anyone who goes down on a woman should not be employed." as an unemployed lesbian, i agree. people who give women head shouldnt have to work a day in their lives

Inés

Peter's comment about "just reusing some dental floss" really got me 😂

cheetch

Sex with ??? Underage women ???

Clelsea Cheary

Yeah boys, you missed on this one. I'm so fucking sick of Epstien analysis that misses the deep rooted misogyny and pedophilia that is rampant across not just elite circles but in respectable homes and in the gutters of society. Every grown woman you know, have seen or been cared for by has an experience of a grown ass man making comments, grooming behaviors, and/or worse when they were CHILDREN. Not underage women, not women in waiting, CHILDREN. I 100% believe that these people are capable of some of the most wild things mentioned in the files because it has happened over and over and over across this hellscape society where pedophile men think they are untouchable and act perverse. Columbus did horrific things to the Taino people, especially girls, got his buddies to join in with his depravity, and then bragged about it in his little diary. This pattern repeats over and over again in Western society because WE DONT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT GIRLS OR WOMEN. To hear you both be so flippant about a tip that seems "too wild" to be true, is infuriating. Your privilege of NEVER being the target of a predator is real loud. You constantly do this when it comes to issues surrounding misogyny - get it together boys.

Carlos Torres

Re: Michael editing Peter’s mouth noises. Two(ish) words: Izotope RX

FrauLoewenherz

Wording matters. They didn’t „have sex“ with „underage women“ (wtf is an underage woman?). They raped girls. Call it what it is.

Lucas Grzybowski

Suggestion: Here Be Monsters by Rhyd Wildermuth

Ari ✊🍉🌈

hey, so the whole podcast is about critiquing and dunking on people’s bad takes. is it only okay when 2 men do it into microphones?

Tyler

Yep - you got me! I totally meant that only white, male podcasters can have opinions.

Tyler

They called it rape. Multiple times in the episode.

Elizabeth Gunn, sickly but cruel

I'm buddies with some of the guy in Squirrel Nut Zippers and it's so funny to me every time they're mentioned.

Daneryl Weber

I did too. Dodge the predators, I mean (and sometimes, ca. age 9-11, I couldn't dodge well enough.) I don't have to any more--I'm at the invisible age, which definitely has its benefits.

MJ

Giuffre is Italian and it's a soft G. 'Ju-freh'

Lise Dale

Absolutely not just western culture

Lise Dale

Idk the impression I got especially back in the day and I've been around 6 decades is that you were indictrinsted that connecting with the who knew who eas the way you became successful and epstein made himself the guy in the middle of all of that. The man who knew everyone. If you spent any amount of time trying to do better for yourself by listening to coaches and reading the books it was and still is all telling you to hang out with the right people, and what you might miss while you are trying to keep your eye on the prize ( which you were also gaslit into thinking was the way to feel less worthless of you had wounds) was just how ugly this whole thing was and just how much seelling of your soul you were doing. I often tell people who feel bad about themselves not being successful that maybe they were just successful in not being the hollow shells and assholes that so many successfully people are.

Lise Dale

Yrah I've voted for all dems rn for obvious reasons but we cannot pretend that it's surprising how many of them were and are just self dealing. Evil does not have a party it just goes for the path of least resistance and rn only one party is trying to enact an authoritarian white nationalist regime.

Patricia Inman

Off this topic but someone mentioned Pete Hegseth’s American Crusade- please cover this one!

DD

Lise, This is my impression too. If you weren't craven enough then they figured how you couldn't 'hang' and wouldn't be rewarded for that.

DD

Late to the topic but 2 quick impressions: 1. Personally, growing up a GenX woman I learned there were creeps and had to develop some skills, including spidey senses. If you were lucky, you learned these before anything bad happened. And if you were lucky, those spidey senses worked and kept you out of some trouble (sometimes they kicked in too late). I look back and realize I was super lucky in some cases--and some of the instances were where other men/boys intervened in the situation. Also, what gets you into trouble is giving others the benefit of the doubt and 'feeling bad' if you think someone has ill intentions. That's not very nice. 2. Someone mentioned below about being taught that you have to make connections and network. That's true. That's part of the problem. It's why you go to certain parties. 3. If you happen to be in situation where the invitees were all aligned in their goals (say, like a perv island) then you were up the creek. Also, that's what really got me about the Epstein revelations: the coordination of it all, the "RICO" of it. There' s no one to turn to. They're all in on it. 4. Also, some people only believe it if there's video. Up until then, they'll make all sorts of excuses. Then when the video comes out, they'll say "oh, but we knew what was going on" and include a Casablanca/"shocked there's gambling" GIF to be blase and ironic about it all.

Matelda

This podcast has the most annoying fans of any podcast i listen to, by far.

Banjo

I saw a lot of the comments before listening and was expecting a very different episode. For a start, there are a ton of comments implying they never acknowledged it was rape: Michael literally called it rape early in the episode and Peter said even if they were adult women they couldn't meaningfully consent due to the power dynamics at play. Did people not hear this? I agree that the language we use is important but the comments just don't match the content for me, let alone the actual critiques being made in the episode.

Kaira Hensler

As someone who also has an irrational hatred of mouth noises, I am very grateful 🙏

Eddy Wyn

Well, no, Woody was not her adopted father. That was André Previn, the renowned conductor that Mia famously stole from her best friend, Dory Previn. (That's why Soon Yi's last name is Previn.) And there's no indication, even from Mia, that he was remotely any kind of a father to Soon Yi. There's enough to criticize Woody for in getting involved with his girlfriend's daughter, without adding misinformation to the mix.

Eddy Wyn

Hey, Michael! Your pronunciation of Ghislaine isn't that far from the French pronunciations on Forvo. They definitely add the S in and use a soft G for GH.

Leah LaPrade

I agree with this. I read a lot of the comments and I am relistening to the episode now to reevaluate it, but I am not hearing these egregious errors that other commenters have pointed out. It's pretty clear where they stand on the issue. They call Epstein and others pedophiles multiple times. There is a part where Michael says "sex with underage girls" but I think he is using the language of the podcasters they were listening to. Language is 100% important, but the overall message is obviously clear (from my perspective).

Leah LaPrade

Oh and they use "underage women" while quoting the Atlantic piece. I don't think they actually used that phrase themselves. So...maybe I missed something, but I'm not understanding some of the harsher criticisms about their language usage, especially.

Leigh M

South Africa, we have our own problems...

Charisma Teeth

Peter and Michael missed an important opportunity to reference the very women who made the allegations in the first place. There was a whole documentary that heavily featured Virginia Giuffre as well as multiple other women. Giuffre is mentioned the most, but she was by no means the only person targeted or the only woman to give public testimony. You could have referenced Julie K. Brown's excellent reporting on the topic or interviews provided in the 2020 documentary Surviving Jeffrey Epstein. The information is out there.

AngryDog GoodBoy

Yep. calling children "underage women" is always gross.

AngryDog GoodBoy

You 2 need a woman on the pod when you talk about sexism.

Darcy

Please do Expecting Better ("FREAKONOMICS for pregnancy") by Emily "dont close schools for COVID" Oster

Alex Abel

Don’t use the existence of the Epstein files to legitimize that psycho cult just bc you’re bad at arguing your point

Sarah

Omg ok unrelated but I would love to hear a take on adult braces and the discourse around that book also — maybe a profile about Tyler Austin Harper from th Atlantic

autumn

Seriously? Why?

Edward Keithly

the misophonia community thanks you for your service removing the mouth sounds, michael 🫡

Story Dean

THANK YOU FOR REMOVING THE MOUTH NOISES MIKE.

Jessica Domladovac

I think a large part of the reason why the women in the files say some particularly nasty shit is because they’re trying to reinforce their position. Not that they’re not also twisted, they also have committed crimes but the kind of over-the-top bluster might be to show how committed they are.

India

Relistening to this and it still drives me crazy that the people on that podcast insist that more people than Epstein couldn’t have been raping kids because “it would get too big and fall apart.” Like yeah that’s true. Epstein ended up killing himself in prison, he didn’t exactly never have a downfall.