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DEI Part 2: The Harvard Wars (Patreon)

Published:
2024-02-27 10:00:05
Edited:
2024-02-28 15:16:34
Imported:
2026-06

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Content

Peter and Michael reflect on how a series of media failures brought us from student protests to a plagiarism scandal, the resignation of Harvard President Claudine Gay, a billionaire meltdown, and a ludicrous campaign against diversity hiring at major companies.

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Comments

Paul McEvoy

Hey guys you did a whole episode mentioning genocide many times but did not mention the actual genocide that we are paying for one time. It was disturbing AF. Are you going to continue to not mention it? If so I'm going to definitely unsubscribe. It was totally bizarre. I was just hoping there was a mistake.

Victoria Borges

Bro what? I just started this episode and 8 minutes in they're naming exactly what's going on. Am I missing some context here?

Katia Fenton

As an Australian I did not hear about any of this past the bad post from the student organisations on October 6 and as a baby researcher this is just bonkers.

M.J. Karp

Obsessed with this podcast and the other podcasts that Peter and Michael are on, but I can’t help but agree with you Paul.

Paul McEvoy

honestly the last one was so disturbingly bone headed and disturbing I haven't listened to this yet.

Paul McEvoy

and yeah I think in our sort of national ethical race to the bottom, genocide seems to be a special case where it's everyone's obligation to talk about it non-stop. And we are falling short of that entirely.

Sinead O. McDevitt

As someone who's campus had to put up with fucking Micheal Knowles being invited and got lies from the daily wire about the campus being lit on fire by protestors, and an admin who couldn't do anything because TECHNICALLY saying trans people need to be removed from public life doesn't count as inciting harassment, hearing these ghouls pretend to care about it drives me up a damn wall

Matias

It is disappointing how "both sides" you are being on this. The Harvard statement was factually correct. All violence in Gaza is the results of Israeli occupation and apartheid.

Roy McGovernor

Student groups vindicated by history

Victoria Borges

I understand the urgency to talk about it constantly, I guess I'm just a bit more forgiving of these two in particular because they have been talking about it. 5-4 ran some specials in the main feed, Mike and Peter both talk about it on social media. They could do more, of course, I was just a bit thrown by the implication that they're doing nothing at all, or not even mentioning it. And ultimately this is an entertainment podcast, so I don't really hold them to the standards of, like, the actual news. I see your point that they could do more with one of their bigger platforms, though.

Paul McEvoy

I guess I don't consider this an entertainment podcast. If your podcast is mostly about ripping into people for their factual innacuracies and their general obliviousness, you should make sure your own moral house is in good order. I will listen to this podcast but I'm not going to dig deep into other podcasts of theirs just to hear them mention what should be the #1 talking point for anyone who is trying to be a decent person right now. I should say that quite a ways into the slaughter, as of yesterday, I'm not aware that they have mentioned the word Gaza on this podcast. So I appreciate them checking in today on it, but I still hold that publishing the last one, mentioning genocide several times but totally ignoring the one we are doing right now is nuts.

Kurt Tennant

It is wild that my Alma mater’s president put the university $40 million in the hole and cut the whole foreign language department and gutted several others, but the whole Harvard thing somehow got more press in the NYT

Jennifer Reft

Nodding my head with every comment here. I agree that Gay did not deserve to resign over the "plagiarism" but probably did regarding her lack of political instincts. Re: Boeing-what is REALLY offensive about the DEI bullshit is that Boeing's fall from one of the best manufacturing companies to its current state has been extensively documented and it is entirely due to the emphasis on finances-that is pure white man.

Jen Bowers

I was wondering if the timeline of their recording had anything to do with it.. possibly recorded around the new year when many but not everyone on the left used the word genocide? I don't know. It's still violence either way so why not mention it. I thought the current invasion of Ukraine would be referenced, too, but I don't remember that either? Yes these events happened after Pinker's book but they still indicate his trend line is bogus

Matthew Cross

This quote really gets at the heart of what makes me so angry about Israel's current leadership and the United States' culpability in legitimizing genocide with not only its dollars and weapons, but also through the act of uplifting rhetoric meant to distort and nullify the language of rescue, resistance, and Anti-fascism. "It's likely too late to get back everything that's been lost to the forces of pipikism, but there is one thing we must never surrender, and that is the language of Anti-fascism. The true meanings of genocide, and apartheid, and holocaust, and the supremacist mindset that makes them all possible. Those words, we need as sharp as possible to name and combat what is rapidly taking shape in the mirror world, which is an entire cosmology, built around claims of superior bodies, superior immune systems and superior babies, bank rolled by supplement sales, Bitcoin and prenatal yoga. It would all be so ridiculous if it were not all so serious." - Naomi Klein (Doppelganger)

Paul McEvoy

yeah for me actual genocide seems like a rarity (or at least straight up genocide that I'm paying taxes for). I don't have a podcast but I think if I did have a podcast that mentioned genocide like 20x and then we were actually doing one, I'd sadly have to scrap my efforts to not look repugnant.

Sam Holtzen

I'm a biologist and I study zinc. One of the running jokes in our lab is starting all of our publications with some permutation of the sentence "zinc is an essential micronutrient". biology is so complicated that when you find a good summary of a really complex topic, you're going to cite and use it. this is so common!!! the coverage by the media is so transparently a hatchet job to discredit her when the only thing she's guilty of is thinking the congressional hearing is anything but political theater

Laura Clowder

I lost it at the opening, omg Michael

Hayley

As an academic, it’s been so crazy to watch the world freak out at some version of “plagiarism” that most people with PhDs have likely committed on accident a handful of times. This was a very cathartic episode for me. Also lol at “whatever is in the acknowledgements is between the authors and whoever they’re acknowledging”

Marshall Steinbaum

Why commence this episode with a lengthy denunciation of what you describe as ignorant 21-year-old activist rhetoric when Brett Stephens did the same thing on the Times op/ed page?

OuijaFBabysMama

Omg please make this public bc my boomer parents would really benefit from hearing this. I am too tired to be calm when talking to them. The boomers are SO AFRAID OF STUDENTS it is so crazy. Literally they sit here upset about a handful of 23 year olds who have no impact on their lives…

Carly Gove

I know Michael was proud of that A1 zinger

OuijaFBabysMama

Maybe we can have a level of patreon, like PARENTS WITH RIGHT WING BRAIN SWISS CHEESE and we pay extra for a few open access shares per episode? Is that possible?

Chris

Dismissing the “21 year old activists” is incredibly disappointing from you guys. The october 7th attack does not exist independent of the entire history of apartheid in palestine. Hamas does not exist independent of israels decades of political oppression and stripping of Palestinian representation in government. Those students clearheadedly saw those attacks in the context of everything that came before. You did not. Boiling this down to “killing people is bad” is naive and dismissive.

Mauricio Caceres

I didn't quite realize there had been so many accusations, but one of the first ones I saw was the one about turnout rates, which a lot of people seem to misunderstand. As you suspect, Gay is indeed concluding the exact same thing just with different data. Let TB, TW be black and white turnout rates, and SB, SW be back and white population shares with SW = 1 - SB. The paragraph posits there's a linear relationship between total turnout T and the share of the black population. That is, T = SB * TB + SW * TW = SB * TB + (1 - SB) * TW = TW + (TB - TW) * SB Whether the relationship between T and SB is positive or negative depends on whether black turnout is higher or lower than white turnout on average (TB - TW). Further, a linear form is only possible if the relationship between black and white turnout rates is stable across geography, i.e. if the change in turnout rates in one race is exactly offset (compensated) by turnout rates in the other. There's more than one way to explain all this, so I did think she took the quote. At the same time, this is a technical methodological point and, while not defensible to take the explanation nearly verbatim, it's also not as nefarious.

OuijaFBabysMama

Also Michael, you stone cold dork I love you so much 💘Thank you for your rigorous work! Always impressed

OuijaFBabysMama

Omg what is the quick and dirty on Zinc that you wish the public understood??

Sam Holtzen

If maintenance phase wants to do an episode on zinc I am available!!! but the short story is that zinc deficiency is an epidemic but mostly affects developing countries, and zinc supplementation (within the recommended daily intake) can MAYBE help shorten colds, but the evidence is very inconclusive. the hype is definitely way overblown though

Ron McKenzie

The longer I listen , the more convinced that we are living in the stupidest of timelines. It’s distressing that the right’s stupidest and most ham-fisted attempts to hijack nuanced yet common sense discussion are succeeding. The hope… it’s dwindling.

Jennifer Crawford

As a scientist in pharma really digging the shout out to the journal of pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics 😂 also wanted to say that it would be bananas if methodology sections were counted as plagiarism —— how many ways do you want me to say I added something to a flask?

🌈🌧️

“But hypothetically, if she hadn’t endorsed Jewish genocide, she still would have lost, so it was totally ok for her to do that” thanks, guys! ✡️

OuijaFBabysMama

Also regarding the two instances of alleged plagiarism that we are saying probably crossed the line— it is possible that since those sentences are describing findings in straight forward language consistent with the field and that she had likely read the first author, that she had no conscious idea that she plagiarized. One if my many shitty jobs has been to go through researchers draft papers and go to each and every citation and read it and find the line and make sure it is the accurate citation and that it is appropriately changed to avoid plagiarism. When were these two papers if hers published? It may have been before research was as hyperfocused on plagiarism. At the end of the day, i think non-idea sentences deserve some wiggle room because there are only so many ways to accurately describe a graph or a finding. How many ways do we have to rewrite THE SKY IS BLUE??????

UglyCrayons

The nonsense about diversity hiring in aerospace is hilarious to me. I'm a machinist and worked in aerospace for a few years. Trust me, you don't want to know how many idiots are making/assembling your planes. Some of the dumbest ones I met were over confident white dudes.

Neeko

You both had some unfortunate takes in this one… you can have different opinions on political issues but not when it comes to a genocide… writing off the accurate portrayal that violence from Hamas is directly correlated to the fact that Israel has been occupying Palestinian lands and displacing and murdering thousands upon thousands for a “ birth right “ as just some bullshit coming from 21 year old activists, is incredibly disappointing. You are being the people you make fun of for a living. You can’t both sides a genocide. You can’t both sides generations of perpetual violence against one single act of retaliation. A man lit himself on fire because of how horrified he was with our governments affiliation with Israel. TWO men lit themselves on fire. This was my favorite podcast, and I’m really disappointed to hear these bland takes from both of you, but I guess I’m not surprised. Not to be that person, but I will be un subbing as I can’t willingly give my money to this.. I just cant.

Staci Andrews

This is proving the point. You are justifying one sides mass murder for ANY REASON is negative that 1. This war has atrocities on both sides going back more than 100 years. And 2. That you get to say when and how genocide is valid.

Ardea

Fwiw (not much), my area of expertise is academic integrity in higher ed, and I thought this episode was really well done. Thanks for taking the time to go through the data!

Augusto Dabos

“Killing people is wrong” so is turning multiple cities into a giant open-air prison and indiscriminately killing and assaulting people without consequences and then destabilizing any attempts at non-violent politics and explicitly saying that you actually prefer to have Hamas around

Neeko

All I’ll say because I feel it could help and I’m not here to argue, is with that mindset, do you call abused women who fight back after years of enduring abuse, abusers? It is not the same , but at what point do you draw the line? Innocent people are innocent people, but when a government doesn’t see them that way, when you have been shown time and time again that your life is worth nothing to them, when they only speak to you in violence - do you think they’d notice anything other than violence? Who is to blame the abused or the abuser?

Lera Meloyan

That’s not what they are saying…they are leveling criticism at those who say “killing babies is bad” who then celebrate the death of Palestinians. If you know anything about Peter you wouldn’t think that’s what he believes.

Cait

Honestly I think a lot of the “bad takes” from leftists re: Oct 7 was really just people who have been engaging with Palestinian advocacy for years trying to explain the context of the occupation and what led to Hamas’s attack when a bunch of people who never engaged with the issue in the first place came out of the woodwork to “stand with Israel.” Many of the “college student activists” are people who’s family members who were killed by Israel. They know what they’re talking about. Killing is bad, yes, we all understand that, but there is a marked difference in violence from the slave vs. the slave master.

Cait

*who have family members. I appreciate the rest of the episode, but this discussion lacked a little bit of nuance to me, as someone who had a lot of frustration on Oct. 7 and throughout the following months. I feel for Israeli families that were victimized on Oct. 7, and I also understand that Palestinians can only exist so long under brutal, genocidal occupation without doing whatever they feel they have to do to escape from it.

Ruth Kinyon

I disagreed with your take that saying "Isreal is responsible for Hamas' violence" is obviously wrong and offensive. I certainly can see the argument that a terrorist group is also responsible for the innocent lives the claim in addition to whatever border forces (like colonization) may have caused the situation. But I am generally more interested in looking at the broader forces (again, colonialism and imperialism) so I don't see it as obviously wrong to point out that ultimately Isreal caused all of this by brutally colonizing Palestine in the first place.

thatthemther

The “lefty on twitter” he mentioned—adam johnson—has a podcast called Citations Needed, which has done literally a dozen episodes straight about the media’s whitewashing of palestinian genocide. Strongly recommend checking out Citations Needed and throwing a few bucks to their Patreon.

Ruth Kinyon

They do outright call what is happening in Palestine a genocide at 8:55 and discuss the bombing in general from about 8:00 - 9:30. It's fair to say they don't talk about it as much as they should, but it's not accurate to say they leave it out completely.

Paul McEvoy

Ok I was specifically talking about the Stephen Pinker episode, I haven't listened to this one.

Saya Clarke

Agree with you 100%. Those who said Israel is responsible for the violence were factually and morally correct. Although some people don't want to hear that. Israeli settlers that move --willingly-- into an occupied territory choose to put themselves and their children at risk. Hamas killing those people was tragic and horrible and I don't cheer on those deaths but enforcing an apartheid, second class citizenship on to a brutalized population necessarily invites violent reaction. "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

Jamie Madden

I had to scold a grad student RA for doing Wikipedia copy/pastes at MIT in 2011. It was absolutely not acceptable at the time and place, and I’m kind of astounded Ackman’s wife was shameless enough to try.

TransFormAndFunction

The NYT is a right wing rag at this point. They continually put out anti-trans pieces full of egregious misinformation, and they engage in all kinds of anti-woke culture war BS. I recently saw a writing from WEB DuBois (early 1900s) where he was criticizing the NYTs role in defending the confederate “states rights” lie, so maybe it’s always been rotten. I don’t understand why it has a good reputation

Paul McEvoy

Your comment is garbled so I can't really understand what you are saying but the "attrocities on both sides thing" is super bogus. The first atrocity was the violent formation of an ethno-state, partially by Britian trying to control and destabilize the region. Everything else stems from that. It's like saying there were atrocities on both sides of the US exterminating Native Americans (Or Canadians for that matter). I mean, sorta. But also, wtf are you talking about? I think also it is important to remember that prior to Oct 7th Israel was commiting daily attrocities against a powerless pseudo state and its population. The media and our government overlooked that for years but magnifier any act of resistance far outside its actual magnitude. Hamas took hostages on one day? Israel took hostages for years. Hamas killed Israelis? Israeli has murdered Palestinians for years and stolen their land for years. You don't get to brutalize a people for 80ish years and not have them want to hurt you. That's not how peace works.

Paul McEvoy

Talking about Jewish genocide when Israel is perpetrating a genocide as we speak, live streamed in real time is some super Nazi shit.

🌈🌧️

You’re right. I should just accept that people want to exterminate us, and focus on the context behind why people want to kill my children.

Zak K

Im super disappointed in your take here. Specifically that Israel being responsible for Oct 7 can be attributed to uninformed 21yo college students. This something that Palestinians and lifelong activists in the movement have spoken extensively about. This did not just start on Oct 7. I think you are missing the context of a brutal colonialist regime enforced on Palestinians since 1948. What do you think of other violent uprisings that stood against oppression and colonization in the past? In your minds, what other recourse do Palestinians have for gaining basic human rights in their own country? This is and has been a genocide, and I believe talk like this only serves to undermine liberation movements and further muddy the discourse ultimately allowing Israel to continue its ethnic cleansing unchecked.

Koko Erdmann

If you think the discourse with Palestine was/is bad in the US, imagine living in Germany, I am quite literally losing my mind over this, there is a very good chunk of the population and established mid-left-leaning media that is completly convinced that "from the river to the sea, palestine will be free" is genocidal

David Kal

The number of weird takes in these comments from people who appear to have completely missed the point of this episode and the show in general is alarming.

David Kal

It's not an airport, no need to announce your departure...

deemazee

Definitely one of the truest things said in this episode is that all their lawyers should have been fired. The tricks republicans play during these sort of hearings are so well known, it's baffling these college presidents were so poorly prepared.

Ian

They should send the Disk Horse to the glue factory

Lindsey

Never reading an acknowledgement?! That’s where they put the gossip! (In some scenarios and if you can read between the lines)

Loraine

Only an absolute clown would go looking for "plagiarism" in the acknowledgements section 🤡

deemazee

I really do get the impetus for the statement that Israel bears responsibility for the attack, and I don't think that's in any way a bad or even particularly misguided take. Honestly, I'm like almost in conspiracy level territory with how much responsibility I ascribe to the Israeli government in the long term and Netanyahu specifically in the short term. My family actually almost moved to Israel at some point (not for political or religious reasons, there was a possibility at some point my dad would get a job there, he didn't and it was no big whoop), and this is not a controversial or quiet opinion in my family. My dad lost a lot of friends over this, in fact. And the reaction to the protests of the student groups is truly absurd and ridiculous. This is not some massive call to genocide by some Harvard kids, and anyone with a brain knows that. That said, I think there is a lot of truly troubling rhetoric and response going around towards Israeli people and Jews that people are way too happy to write off, in an almost "well they deserve it" and a "what do you expect" kind of manner, and that's troubling. On a very basic level, we should be critical of governments and organizations and mindful of how we speak about people. So far, just collection of things I've seen or heard about, either directly from people I know, things I've seen around my neighborhood, or read about in the news: 1. Citing non-existent "studies" about Jewish genetics and how it means Jews don't belong in the middle east. 2. That a majority of Israelis are not born in Israel (this is untrue, a majority of Israelis are born in the Middle East or Africa). 3. A variety of dog whistles and memes that if you trace them back will take you to Qanon sites or full on Neonazi sites. 4. When you bring up some of those points (like when someone posts a Q-anon anti-Semitic meme and you're like "uh maybe don't trust something that comes from Q-anon"), you get yelled at that you're trying to justify the murder of Palestinians, you're biased because you haven't said enough personally to condemn Israel, and Q-anon might be right about this one. 5. Calling Jews/Israelis Nazis, imagery with the Star of David and swastikas in it. I mean... that is like pretty direct inciting imagery that equates Jews to fascists, wouldn't you say? 6. Israeli and non-Israeli Jews banned from events or disinvited because, as far as I can tell, either did not spend every waking moment making statements about how bad Israel is, or just were like "I don't want to comment about this too much, I just want Israelis and Palestinians to exist in peace." In one case, a speaker was disinvited for having served in the IDF... 30 years ago, when she had to do her compulsory service. 7. Saying that genetically (there is a lot of genetics talk out there right now that I am witnessing) Jews aren't even Semites (untrue) and so really, you can do and say whatever you want about Jews, because you can't be anti-Semitic against them. Palestinians are Semites, so really, Jews are the real anti-Semites. This is troubling behavior, and it shouldn't be swept under the rug. I'm not saying people deserve to be canceled or blacklisted over it, and it also in my experience this particular "bad take" isn't coming from college students or Palestinians, but it is coming from grown ass white adult leftists who really should know better. There's just like a complete disregard for how harmful this type of rhetoric is and the only reason I can surmise as to why is because people feel Jews and Israelis deserve this treatment because of what a government most of them don't support and don't have any control over has been doing. Add to this the troubling history that basically most of anti-Semitism has been fuel by some basic concept of "this Jewish organization/group has a criminal/disloyal/immoral element, and sure maybe there are some exceptions, but for the most part all Jews are like this." It's not too dissimilar from the disgustingly Islamophobic reaction in the US after 9/11. I also acknowledge that Netanyahu and his government has done quite a lot to contribute to the unsafety of Jews around the world right now, but still, we should all be practicing awareness in how we choose to talk about each other. Also, it's very telling how lots of people on the right are choosing to laser focus their "anti-Semitism detector" radar on like college students continuing a long tradition of activism and political experimentation, while ignoring the very real vile content that is coming out of their forums.

Katie

This episode brings to mind the Fareed Zakaria plagerism scandal a decade back, which was but a tiny roadbump in his career. There is of course the black womenness of it all, but also the ability of bad faith right wing actors to get the rest of us to do their bidding even when their tactics are so obvious.

fia

Yeah it feels disingenuous. Especially because when they discuss other topics they do truly try to get to the root of the issue at hand. Not making it a point to discuss that feels gross at best.

Lindsay Alberts

As an academic, what I've learned here is that Claudine Gay is really bad at citations. TBH tho, the language in the acknowledgments is so weird - I do not understand how that happened.

Katenomics

As an academic, I can you that this (and worse) is standard practice. Almost every academic in my field would be disqualified on these grounds.

Denise PAYAN

Same, this was a disappointing take.

Logn

Wow I am deeply dissapointed in how you two are choosing to discuss the genocide happening in Palestine. I cannot believe the take is "violence is always bad". Violent uprising against colonizers is the only thing that works. Liberals are so interested in failed revolutions, but so judgemental and dissmissive of revolutions that achieved their goals. This did not start on october 7th and claiming that is shameful, and it is not "mass death", it is murder, it is genocide. 75 years of the indiscriminate murdering of Palestinians. They broke out of a refugee camp because they had been displaced it their own country. The contempt for activists is wiiiiild.

Denise PAYAN

very well might do the same (from a 31 year old)

Judah

gonna echo the resounding disappointment… y’all took four months to even mention the genocide of palestinians (which i can offer *some* sympathy to as mike is sick and it’s a LOT of info), but when you finally do, the entire beginning of it is pandering to the liberals you so eagerly make fun of, while borderline misinforming folks about the part israel played in october 7th’s events. i respect both of you (albeit much less after this), and i believe y’all can do better than this pseudo-pacifist “all killings are bad” bs… ruined the rest of the hour that was left in the episode, as i couldn’t get back on board.

Logn

Im right there with you. I just cancelled my membership to this and Maintenance Phase. I am so deeply dissapointed that after 5 months of silence this is how Michael chooses to discuss the brutal slaughter of over 30,000 people, most of whom are children.

Ryan R

To share some feedback as I respect the creators, I was disappointed with this one. I get that this episode is not about Palestine, but if you're going to address a topic like an ongoing genocidal campaign that is directly aided by the US state, and which exists in the context of the Israeli apartheid and occupation, I don't understand why you choose to denounce that statement out of hand. You make sure to do it twice with no reasoning, long before you address the ongoing genocide. As you say later in the episode, it is infuriating to be talking about slogans and statements when thousands of people are being murdered, and I agree. But I feel that you have reproduced this structure in this episode, by leading with criticism of leftists rather than criticism of any of the power structures in play.

Logn

Are you referring to the reaction to them chosing to discuss (for the first time in 5 months) the genocide of Palestinians by dissmissing activists as overreacting young people (derogatory)? Or are you talking about the reaction to them talking about anti zionists as anti semites? Or maybe youre referring to our reactions on how they chose the insanely white middleclass stance that "violence is never okay"? Of people who have been living under a brutal occupation fought back violently after 75 years of trying to get their rights in a peaceful manner and being murdered for it en masse to the point that the majority of people in Palestine are under 18 because the IOF has brutally murdered or imprisoned without trial the Palestinian adults. Michael and Peter have with their words here shown us how they feel about the genocide and we are not missing the point by feeling this and calling that out.

Logn

Same

Gary McCammon

Meanwhile, the Republicans who were VURRY VURRY concerned about antisemitism had actual Nazis show up at CPAC that they pretended weren't there.

Logn

He seems pretty clear in his stance here… if he is Pro a Palestinian resistance movement against the ongoing ethnic cleansing being perpetrated by Israel he would just say that. He seems to believe that this is a very complicated issue that Israel do not bare the full responsibility for which they undisputedly do by way of murdering leaders and members of peaceful resistance movements over the last 75 years in Palestine and funding and taking part in creating Hamas. He is pretty clear.

Gary McCammon

Whole lotta Mo Testas in this here comment section.

Logn

Very cool take🥴🥴🥴🥴🥴🥴

Phoebe

Thank you, Ryan. I came here to say this but you and many others already did, so eloquently. I remember Peter mentioning the Harvard statement a few months ago so I read it myself, and was very surprised by the backlash and Peter's framing of it as being tactless or overly offensive. Something I haven't seen in the comments yet, but I'm very frustrated by, is Michael and Peter's framing of the statement's sentiment, that Israel is responsible for Palestinian self-determination (a fact that is true and a right that Palestinians are entitled to according to international law), is a reactionary undergraduate kind of statement. I expect more from both of them because of their backgrounds and experiences. Casting support for Palestinian self-determination as reactionary, trivial and immature is insulting beyond words.

Phoebe

Thank you, Zak! This is exactly what I was thinking!

Ben Love

You both need to do a LOT of reading about both the history of the creation of the settler colonial state of Israel and the history of Palestinian liberation movements, you both come of as pretty ignorant here. Those “dumb college students” appear to know more than you in this case.

Allen

I do hope the hosts respond to the feedback here and clarify/apologize re: their comments on student activists.

Lina

If I'm being generous, I can chalk up the flippant remark about killing people is bad to just an off the cuff statement but what baffles me is that there are actual episodes of 5-4 where the hosts discuss the exact talking point of "Israel bears the responsibility for October 7" and Michael Liroff actually points out that that statement is something people in Israel also say! Peter has been on podcasts talking to actual students who have faced consequences for making direct statements about the occupation and genocide. This is a slap in the face, I wonder if Peter's other podcast hosts know he was willing to play along with a shitty dismissive remark like that

Lina

It's pure reactionary bullshit to see a whole institution dog pile on young people taking a risk to make direct statements about October 7 and join in on the fun. It's indefensible to do it months after the fact when the whole world can watch Palestinians live stream their own ethnic cleansing. We have seen it play out who is responsible for the suffering in Gaza right now. The more I think about this the more mad I get, maybe this podcast really is only for dunking on stuff we can already look back on at a distance and say it was dumb. If this is what goes for premium political analysis then I'm out

David Kal

Yeah, all that dude, it's a fuckin podcast about books. Sorry if they don't precisely agree with your already determined position and echo the talking points that you want stated...

Logn

It is pretty important actually to give our feedback in situations like this - we are leaving a service we have been paying for and they deserve to know why we are leaving. We are allowed to state our extreme disappointment. This isnt just unfollowing a facebook group or an instagram account - we pay these mens wages with our patreon money and they use their air time to ridicule activists telling the truth about Isreals crimes against humanity and they downplay and dismiss a genocide that has indiscriminately slaughtered over 30,000 people.

Amelia R

Incredibly disappointed by the rhetoric echoed around Palestine and campus activists. Israel has killed over 30,000 innocent civilians and injured 70,000 more in the past few months. It just seems wild that a podcast series devoted to uncovering the truth behind the lies of bestselling books can't apply that same level of discernment and research against the Zionist propaganda that perpetuates so much of our media today. Disappointed and considering unsubscribing.

Oceania Chee

other people have said the same thing better than me already, but i really don’t like how you guys talk about support for palestine post-oct 7th as overzealous “21 year old college students”. it’s just so disappointing to hear two people who are usually so committed to debunking lies suddenly take up such a dismissive and ahistorical tone when talking about the outpouring of support for palestine

Oceania Chee

glad to see other people feeling the same way. it felt incredibly dismissive to me as well especially when knowing the full context of israeli occupation should make oct 7th a lot harder to condemn as senseless violence. idk just really disappointed by this rhetoric

Judah

i’m giving them until next month to acknowledge this & correct it. otherwise i’m out. others have said the same and it doesn’t feel unreasonable with how out of the blue this BS take is by them. feels like a betrayal.

Mike Emrie

You can argue that maybe the students weren’t being very tactical about their messaging but they are objectively correct: Israel is responsible for Oct 7 as they’re the ones keeping Palestine as an open air prison and we even know Netanyahu has helped ensure Hamas stays in power. So, where’s the lie? How is Israel not 100% responsible for Oct 7?

Phoebe

I've listened to the entire episode and read through the comments. I understand that people I respect and learn from will not always have the same opinions as me, which although disappointing, is something I am comfortable navigating. This is not one of those instances, though. As many others have pointed out, Peter and Michael make their living off of critiquing the people who use the exact rhetoric that they themselves used in this episode (and elsewhere). Their framework contributes to misinformation, fear mongering and the delegitimisation of Palestinian lives. That is the actual morally repugnant action. Not contextualizing the Palestinian struggle for self-determination, which people often do at the risk of their own livelihoods (which Peter knows very well). Long live Palestine.

Amelia R

Very well said. I agree.

Lyma Rapson

Unfortunately, there is high death toll in Gaza due to urban warfare. A tragedy for everyone. To call it a genocide though is not only ridiculous but factually incorrect as there is no intent to kill all Palestinians just because they are Palestinians. Germany, a country that is experienced with genocide and contributed to its legal definition, vehemently (and rightfully) rejected that " Palestinian genocide" statement as well. The only attempted genocide that happening was Hamas' attack as their chapter clearly states to kill all Jews within and outside of Israel. And YES, the slogan "river to the sea" has genocidal elements - it was created and used in this context to declare the annihilation of Israel and Jews and 10/7 was an example of its action. A short reminder: this whole land has had an absolute Jewish majority before Arabs- later rebranded as Palestinians- conquered it. It's more than questionable that all of a sudden the discussed time periods are so very selective. Jewish people are indigenous in this land, Arabs the colonizers. To ignore that is just the same as saying White English colonizers are also indigenous to New Zealand because they have been there since the 19th century. It is obviously awful what is happening in Gaza (as was 10/7) but that is no reason to use factually incorrect, ahistorical rhetoric that just causes further harm and division. Also funny how this comment section is full of people who love to have a nation state destroyed (because having a remaining nation state is oooooh so Zionist) while they live and zip their matcha latte's on actual stolen land. The level of clownery is amusing.

Kennedy

Freedom for Palestine and solidarity to the activists. I have unsubscribed from this patreon.

Rachel Osborne

I've studied Zionism a great deal, and... nothing about this podcast struck me as such. They clearly state that Israel's reaction is not okay....?

Augusto Dabos

Hey dude when you lick boots do you season them with anything? Do you add garlic?

Kazoolhu

I want to point out that the statement they criticized said Israel was ENTIRELY responsible for any violence going forward. Both Hamas and the Israeli gov't use the "but they started it!" argument; I couldn't even get away with that excuse when I was an 8-year-old.

Rebecca Riley

"the kids these days industrial complex"

Paul McEvoy

Is urban warfare when Israeli snipers shoot children in the streets while people are videoing it? Or bulldozing cemeteries? You sound a lot like an actual Nazi. Thing with Nazis are they are vehement anti Jewish racists. But what I hear from Zionists is just the same thing for Arabic people.

Paul McEvoy

"these people getting all up in arms about people ignoring breaking all the windows in the Jewish owned stores in Berlin is a little much" - some meaningless piece of shit circa 1938.

Melissa M

This earned an unsubscribe from me. I’ve long respected both of your work, but it is neither untrue nor offensive to say that the Israeli *government* is 100% responsible for October 7. They are a settler colonial state and have been slaughtering, oppressing and stealing land from Palestinians for years. They directly funded Hamas to create discordance in Gaza. This attack was simply the excuse they needed to unleash the full scale of their decades long genocidal campaign On the heels of an imminent invasion of Rafah and the martyrdom of Aaron Bushnell, you should be ashamed of yourselves for anything less than a full-throated condemnation of Israel’s actions. From the river to the sea 🇵🇸

Melissa M

Everyone who is rightfully pissed about the Palestine stuff should subscribe to Citations Needed

Melissa M

Israel literally did start it

Z

I was really disappointed with this and will unsubscribe. We are over three months into a genocide and parts of this was really distasteful.

Theo

I'm adding my voice to the chorus re: your flippancy towards Palestinians here, I've been a huge fan of this show and recommended it to friends since it started and I find your lack of conscience in talking about genocide disappointing and embarrassing.

Catharine Smith

I am sorry that there is so much antisemitism in the world and that some bad faith actors have used the mounting criticism against the Israeli government as an invitation to be antisemitic. And also, it is absolutely wrong to conflate valid criticism against the Israeli government as antisemitic. There is a current genocide happening. Your generational trauma might give you a pass to choose not to stand with the people who are being murdered or those fighting for their human rights, but to stand in the way of that is shameful.

Catharine Smith

Israel started it and then continued it by brutally occupying Gaza for 75 years and creating an apartheid regime. This is not a childhood argument and you diminishing it in this way is a little gross. Israel is 100% response for all of this. They were warned for decades by the international community that the only way oppression like what they were inflicting ends is in the loss of innocent lives. They didn't just do nothing -- they recruited people to live in an area they knew was unsafe for the sake of white colonialism.

LadySwayze

Ditto everyone upset about the Palestine discussion. It’s not anti-Semitic to oppose Israel’s colonial violence and oppression. We can mourn lives with and contextualize that loss. AND, way better coverage of the plagiarism allegations, which was crazy-making at every turn. This is not REALLY the kind of plagiarism that matters, and the fact that Harvard didn’t back Gay is spineless.

Saya Clarke

You are wrong that most Israeli’s don’t support their government. Sorry but you just are. Do you realize Netanyahu has been elected as PM multiple times and has mass support? He was shown to be corrupt and peddling influence but has been given a blank check to continue his behavior and remain in office? Even past term limits? He is quite literally one of the most revered figures in Israeli history. Right next to Theodore Herzel and Baruch Goldstein. There is nothing inherent to Judaism that portends racist treatment of Palestinians but Israel and her ardent supporters are living even bathing in the lie that Palestinians are savages and that they deserve to occupy the land that rightfully belongs to Palestinian people. Don’t take my word for it, just listen to the average Israeli citizen speak about their hatred of Palestinians. Take your most psychotic MAGA republican in the US and ratchet it up 10x and you will have your average Israeli citizen.

Saya Clarke

Yeah this was cringe for Hobbes to say. Imagine a chattel slave killing his master and Hobbes says “Yeah killing people is wrong.” Like uhm yes we know that hon but there is a little more to it than that.

Saya Clarke

So proud of everybody in the comments calling out the fence-sitting bad takes in this episode. I love this show and the hosts but I am with Rhiannon on this one. There is no question, Israel and the people who support their fascist government are responsible for the attacks on October 7th. The blood is on their hands. Free Palestine!

Ray

An aerospace engineer who worked at Boeing for over 20 years said the problem is that it changed from an engineering company to a project management company. As someone who loathes "Project Management", I sympathetize.

Jess

3 minutes in and I had to pause because y’all did not just “all lives matter” this shit right?? I mean come on, I would think that any leftist who is a citizen in the US can understand that a critique (or even hatred) for a COLONIAL GOVERNMENT is not the same as perpetuating hate toward an entire ethnicity?? I am perfectly okay with holding space for different opinions and having conversations, but it was so shocking– and honestly ironic– to hear y’all spread rhetoric that is so antithetical to everything I thought this podcast was about.

Cate Kneale

Love this episode but as a Brit I was confused by "A1 like fucking flank steak" (?) Cam anyone explain this to me so that I can plagiarise it for my next terf tour?

Cate Kneale

The UK government is desperate to use this to ban all protest forever on the basis that we're all Hamas.

Cate Kneale

I get this and I wouldn't for instance say that Toussaint L'Overture should have taken a different approach. I do think in our media climate it didn't work as a statement. I also see the Israeli state turning this 180 degrees and saying that they have no other option but to destroy Gaza and gaining support by using this same rhetoric.

Cate Kneale

I've been on twitter a lot and haven't seen any of the takes on genetics or disinvitations. Is this really common?

Nancy Gilbert

As a side bar: In my First-Year College Composition classes, class discussions on what constitutes true plagiarism, the importance of citing sources, etc., has changed dramatically since Sam Altman opened the Pandora's Box of ChatGPT.

Maggie S

A1 is a steak sauce. Some people love to douse their steak in it

Paul McEvoy

Yeah this is a fucking stupid argument. I guess maybe if you gave one of your kids your other kids room. Made your kid live in the garden shed, restricted when they could come inside, beat the other kid regularly etc etc and then the other kid said kid one started it that would be a good argument but really I think it more points to your own moral failings and general dumbness.

Red Scare Spice

I agree. I know Michael and Peter can be pretty sarcastic (and I like that about them) but that comment displays a tone deafness that I didn’t expect from them

Paul McEvoy

I hadn't listened to it but was disgusted that the last one mentioned genocide many times but didn't say Gaza once. This one I would say is tone deaf. I guess what I would say is if someone did a podcast and said "what germany did to the jews was not ok" that would be pretty weak sauce. True but also just stupid.

Paul McEvoy

weird. You're saying the people who were living there in the 30s are colonizers but that Jenny from Brooklyn who has the right to go to and from Israel at any time is the native population? I mean, that, on its face, is fucking stupid. Regardless though, I'm 100% against who is killing children at any given moment. On Oct 7th I was firmly against Hamas. For the remainder I'm against Israel. Israel has shown that,regardless of the past, it is morally depraved. And your response seems like this sort of historical revisionist bullshit. It sounds a lot like the way Southern white people talk about the civil war, i.e. grotesque racism.

Paul McEvoy

5 minutes into that podcast I had to shut it down. I just can't do another dudes laughing at their own jokes thing again. Music is good. I need less podcasts. For really thoughtful takes, Radio Open Source is always wonderful, not frequent but always amazing.

Paul McEvoy

Do people have suggestions for thoughtful political analysis podcasts? I really love Radio Open Source, Chris Lydon is a real intellectual, thoughtful, funny, mildly bizarre and I've listened to him (improve) since I was maybe 19. He doesn't produce much content but he is great. It's not always political but The Blindboy Podcast is great, he mentions Ireland and Palestine's connection as far as Balfour goes. I'm done with the NY Times, their total collusion Re: Gaza makes me ill. I'm up for suggestions....

Wordy & Nerdy

So clearly that they spent the first 10 minutes criticizing student solidarity statements for Palestine, as if it were extreme and ridiculous to suggest that Israel is responsible for the environment leading up to the October 7.

stan says I'm done with sergio

they said 100% isn't Israel's fault and killing civilians is bad. they are both pro Palestine. but the messaging in the statement wasn't precise and at least a bit objectionable

Wordy & Nerdy

We can mourn the lives lost on October 7 while contextualizing it with everything that happened in the 70 years prior to October 7. Israel literally created Hamas. They put their own citizens in harms way. How are they not responsible?

Paul McEvoy

Yes I think when you treat people like shit, you don't get to choose their manner of rebellion. Oct 7th was horrific but it is not super surprising. I have to say that in the meantime my understanding of Israel's horrific actions since the 40s has come into a lot of focus.

Ryan Rowekamp

It's unfortunate that we use the same word for failure to fully cite every single idea that was influenced by someone else and full fledged copyright infringement without attribution. (This thought is brought to you by James Somerton appearing in public again.)

Daniel Nebdal

I mostly agree, but Hamas also has agency - they get to choose the form of their reaction. If we are to treat them as a serious nation state, we can't infantilize them to the point of saying that their actions were completely dictated by their oppressors. Trying to assign exact percentages of blame feels silly, but any messaging that works out to "100% Israel, 0% Hamas" is so naive as to be counterproductive. (See e.g. the way some of the aforementioned student slogans fed into a media machine wanting to paint students as dangerous extremists). edit: I should clarify that I think Israel is fully responsible for setting up the current situation - if they want the violent resistance to end they could consider stopping the decades long slow-burn genocide.

Ben Love

The reason Germany didn’t call it a genocide is because they use their relationship with Israel to save face and because the state of Germany was never actually de-nazified. To suggest that Germany of all countries should be the arbiter of what is and isn’t considered genocide is laughable. The German response to Palestinian genocide is a clear example of how they’ve never had to truly reckon with their crimes. Also Germany has arrested and jailed hundreds of Jewish activists demonstrating against the genocide of Palestinians (you can read about that here: https://therealnews.com/fascism-never-left-germany-berlins-repression-of-pro-palestine-activists ). But I guess arresting Jews is the best way to prevent “antisemitism” in their eyes.

stan says I'm done with sergio

the 100% culpability is what they criticized. I don't think they think it's a 50/50 split but like a 98% Israel 2% Hamas split. and they specifically talked about civilians being killed. look at their other statements and even Peter's other podcast is pro Palestine. there were also people who crossed the line into celebrating versus acknowledging it's part of a broader effort to decolonize Palestine

Wordy & Nerdy

You can feel however you like, but I think spending extensive time discussing how out of line and stupid you think these college students were being when their statement was *at best* slightly tactless left a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of the episode.

Catharine Smith

You do not have agency when you are living in an oppressive state with limited human rights. Israel was sure to squash all peaceful forms of protest and attempts to escape the situation in the decades preceding October 7th. In doing so, they ensured the only outcome would be a violent one. To criticize a violent response to a multi generational lack of human rights is what is ridiculous. I will say it again and again and again: Israel is 100% responsible for October 7th.

Wordy & Nerdy

And if they wanted to talk about the people crossing the line into celebrating, they could talk about that, instead of zeroing in on student groups. It’s bad enough they took forever to even mention what was going on in Palestine on the podcast, and I found their approach disappointing.

stan says I'm done with sergio

they didn't all lives matter this. saying civilian deaths are bad isn't saying Israel is blameless. you're taking this in extreme bad faith

stan says I'm done with sergio

they are pro Palestine. reading it in a different way is taking it in bad faith. they aren't suggesting it's like a 50/50 split of blane

Potato

You're both too smart to fall so easily into such ignorant stances on Israel's violence and Hamas' violence, and shaming of activist language

TransFormAndFunction

Israel is 100% responsible for the Israel/Palestine conflict. ALSO, it’s our responsibility to call out when ANY group is slaughtering civilians. It IS justified for Palestine and the groups that represent them to attack Israel in response to colonization/settler attacks, apartheid, and genocide, but it’s NOT justified for them to kill innocent civilians like they did on Oct7. There is no justification for killing civilians by the thousands, no matter what your cause is — that’s why Israel must be stopped, and it also applies to every other group, including Hamas. Slaughtering civilians in Israel doesn’t end the genocide in Palestine, it doesn’t bring back the Palestinians that Israel has genocides so far, and it doesn’t undo ANY past abuse that Israel has done. It’s wrong to kill kids, innocents, civilians, full stop. If you don’t believe that, you stand for the same violence Israel stands for.

Wordy & Nerdy

None of that is what’s being discussed here though. Nobody’s gung ho about the murder of civilians. That is clearly wrong. What is not wrong is to say that this entire event falls at the feet of Israel’s occupation, which as far as I can tell is what that statement said. Which is why it’s disappointing to hear Mike and Peter dismiss it out of hand as patently absurd, and not even begin to explain what exactly they’re objecting to. Nobody here is saying “we wanted Mike and Peter to say murdering civilians is cool!”

TransFormAndFunction

I saw these comments before I listened. Are people actually pissed off that they are against…. the slaughter of innocent civilians? It’s never justifiable to slaughter civilians and kids, and anyone who think ls it is justifiable to kill kids is defending the same type of violence that Israel has used to create their Zionist hellscape, and continues to use to maintain it. It’s not justifiable to kill thousands of innocent people. That’s why Israel’s violent occupation must end, and it also applies to any other group, including Hamas.

TransFormAndFunction

I’m against ANY group that kills civilians en masse. Thats not “fence sitting”, thats the battle line. Israel is squarely on the side of killing civilians, and I will not support ANY group that joins them. Hamas chose to attack innocent civilians on Oct7, and that tactic is unacceptable. It doesn’t make Palestine safe, it doesn’t end Israel’s horrific genocide or colonization or apartheid, and it doesn’t lead to peace. It is fundamentally wrong, no matter the reasoning behind it. There is no justification for slaughtering thousands of innocent people. That’s where the fence is. Which side are you on?

Ben Schwabe

Trashfuture, they're UK centric but fantastic.

TransFormAndFunction

Pisses me off too. Reminds me of how they claim “eradicating transgenderism” is somehow different than “eradicating trans people”, a distinction that could only exist if you falsely believed being trans is a choice, which it is not. Being trans is an immutable characteristic. The call for “eradicating transgenderism” IS a call for genocide. And so far the US has let them implement their plan, banning healthcare for trans people, removing what protections do exist for trans people, and making us illegal in public spaces. Yesterday a court allowed a statewide ban on gender affirming care for kids in Indiana. I haven’t seen it even covered in the news, despite the fact that we know it will lead to deaths, as banning ANY healthcare for a population would.

Paul McEvoy

Thanks. I should mention Novara media, the founder Aaron has some silly ideas but their main host is excellent. Also UK based.

Catharine Smith

You are completely ignoring the power structures that exist on this conflict. Palestine is at a point that they can no longer just "respond" to violence. That only has only ever resulted in extreme retaliation from Israel -- something they have again been criticized for by the international community. Hamas and the people of Gaza do not have a matching weapons base to actually attack in a manner that you deem acceptable because Israel is bankrolled by the most powerful military force in the world. I hate that innocent people died. Everyone mourns this loss. AND the reality is that Israel put people in a place where there was *no other option*. Gaza has been in an increasingly desperate situation with an expanding population and dwindling resources. When you create an environment like that the occupied party is justified in doing anything they can to escape it. Again --- no one is applauding these deaths. But those murders are fully at the hands of Israel. Hamas might have committed the act, but Israel forced people into this situation and ignored all warnings that this would happen.

Saya Clarke

I'm on the side of resistance to colonization. Hamas or Palestinians could not today decide to end the occupation and apartheid ethnostate that they live under by peaceful means. They don't have the power to do that. Israel DOES and could end the colonial project today if they chose to. It's not likely that would but they could if they wanted to. Palestinians have tried for decades to fight using every peaceful means available. BDS, Great March of Return, etc., and they have been halted, murdered or maimed in response at every turn. When you exhaust every peaceful solution to end your oppression the only path left is violent resistance. I don't like the deaths of innocents either. I don't like that it has come to this. But as long as Israel forces Palestinians into second class citizenship at the barrel of a gun, brave Palestinians will continue to fight back for what is rightfully theirs using any means available to them. I imagine you would also moralize about a slave killing their master as well. Sure you could make that argument. "Killing is always bad." Yeah in a vacuum that might be true but context and nuance matter.

Sebastian Wurzrainer

And that’s going to be an unsubscribe for me. Fully in agreement with all of the comments rightfully criticizing Peter and Michael for their fence-sitting regarding settler colonial genocide. The critical acuity that typically serves this podcast so well seems to fly out the window the moment the hosts are faced with the pressures of the moment. And I do not care if Michael’s and Peter’s defense is that they’ve more comprehensively clarified their stance on the issue elsewhere. That is not a defense for the callousness on display here. May *all* settler colonial states (ours, Israel’s, and others) collapse into dust one day.

Helen

Extensive time? It was 10 mins out of an hour 15min show, and they focused on how media falsely accused these student organizations of being for antisemitism instead of just critical of Isreal. Weird to get heated at people for agreeing with you.

Wordy & Nerdy

Except we don’t agree, as I just spent frankly more time than I should have explaining. You’re the only one who seems to be getting heated. I expressed how *I* felt. Nobody is stopping *you* from continuing to support and enjoy the podcast. Have a nice day 💜

Rosie

With so much respect for Michael and Peter, I ask that they engage with Palestinian and Antizionist scholarship before giving specific takes, especially regarding the self-advocacy of Palestinian students in the US, many of whom are literally from Gaza and have families there. Critiques of the language of various SJP statements may be legitimate, but dismissing this longstanding movement as a bunch of adolescents who don’t know what they’re doing is irresponsible and bad journalism. The focus should have been on how “from the river to the sea” is definitively NOT a call for genocide, and how Dr. Gay’s central mistake (outside of engaging with the hearing at all) was to fail to clearly say this. Love, an avid listener and antizionist jew who is now even more anxious about proper citations

Dylan Carter

Regarding the plagiarism scandal: I think there’s a worthwhile comment to be made about how misogynoir played a role in how disproportionate the reaction was. It wasn’t just that the guy leveling the accusations was doing so at a Black woman, but it’s also the extent to which people ran with it

Dylan Carter

Re: Palestine: If you listen beyond the initial comment, you do see that they literally acknowledge the grievous loss of Palestinian lives & how it’s genocidal. I don’t agree with the blanket statement deriding the student group; but it’s disingenuous to pretend that that statement is the whole of their opinion here

Kazoolhu

KC: Agreed, I don't think their intent came across clearly. I wonder if they edited out some discussion that should have been left in. Based on some of the replies, I don't think my intent came across clearly, either!

Kazoolhu

MM: That's how I see it, too; it just doesn't help stop the killing.

Paul McEvoy

I listened to that for about 4 minutes it sounded pretty terrible tbh

Helen

The Pinker book ends in the 20th century, it's from 2011. Bringing up current events in a conversation about an older book when the episode is already SUPER LONG is not really wise in terms of use of time or giving genocide/war crimes proper discussion. Theyre getting reamed here for only giving a few mins of time to STATEMENTS on Isreal's actions in Gaza in this episode, when it was only slightly relevant, even though both have publicly spoken out against the genocide online where they have much bigger audiences.

Paul McEvoy

Shit is so funny. Just put your comment in a different time, "expecting every German author to talk about current events when we are talking about a book written in 1920 is not really wise. We are talking about historical slaughters of innocent people. Trying to get everyone to talk about the genocide happening right now is reaming everyone out". That would be fucking ridiculous circa 1939ish. I am pretty ok saying that until the genocidal stops, every fucking minute of everyone's time should be devoted to stopping it. Not just because it's morally abhorrent but because it will (rightly) direct massive (and righteous) violence towards us as a society. That you are suggesting we have very calm and fun discussions about genocide but not talk about the one going on is, honestly, sick af. But perhaps more importantly, stupid and dangerous. We will be reaping the rewards of this for many years to come.

Paul McEvoy

And I'm sorry. Talking with your mouth full of marbles about "Israel's actions in Gaza" is pretty lame. Their snipers are shooting women and children in the street. They are bulldozing cemeteries. They are posting it online. Are you afraid if you take a moral stand someone is going to call you out? It's super easy. It's a genocide. You can tell when they are calling Palestinians vermin and talking about exterminating them. Big fucking tell there.

Samer

Yeah I'm out. Yall have a huge platform and you needed to do this one better. Would have been a great opportunity, for example, for that vaunted Michael Hobbes research into the history of the phrase "from the river to the sea" which would have EASILY debunked any indication that it was genocidal in character, but instead you just sort of half-heartedly refer to it as speech "in bad taste"?? There's a well-funded and coordinated movement to silence pro-Palestinian speech right now, and instead of making a strong argument to defend the people TRYING TO STOP A GENOCIDE you ended up skirting around the issue and taking easy punches.

Samer

That's true but honestly I think a bit besides the point. I don't doubt that Michael and Peter are sympathetic to the plight of Palestine or that they don't recognize that what is happening right now is a genocide. But given that they ARE sympathetic and they DO recognize the genocide (at least Peter does), they had a responsibility to do this episode better. And in the end it came off as very middle-of-the-road, all-sides-bad, tone-policing pablum. It's particularly egregious right after their last full episode, which talked AT LENGTH about how the world order ignores and obscures violence and genocide, and didn't mention the CURRENT genocide, not once!

Dylan Carter

Oh I agree, especially since the first statement made has put people off. I don’t think they handled it well but it’s not as bad as some of the comments have made it out to be imo

Catharine Smith

For me I think the issue is that they ridiculed the Harvard student statement. I think the letter was brave and morally correct and Michael's statement describing it as 'annoying' really makes me think the two of them only *now* think Israel is in the wrong after they've murdered 30,000 people. People who knew about the history of the area were desperate to prevent this extermination and I don't like hearing that two people I really respect were so dismissive about that messaging.

Vladimira

me pulling up this comments section like that gif from 'community' when troy returns with pizzas to see everything is on fire

Abigail

A1 is a steak sauce. It is also the front top section of the newspaper (“above the fold”) that the headline news is in. So they get a lot of headlines (like a steak covered in sauce).

stan says I'm done with sergio

they never said from the river to sea is genocidal. you're inventing a take that isn't there. the objection brought up was that Israel wasn't 100% responsible for October 7

Paul McEvoy

There's also for me the same queeziness I feel about Jon Stewart talking about Gaza. There's not much funny to be had here. I'm a nurse with 15 years in the ER and my sense of humor is dark dark dark. But I'm witnessing horror of a level I've never before witnessed. This is absolutely Warsaw ghetto horror. So to hear two guys kind of bandy about the topic in a hipster Washington DC vibe and have some good yucks, it's queezy af. There's a very basic thing that needs to be said: free Palestine permanent ceasefire now. Not a time for fucking half measures.

stan says I'm done with sergio

they were talking about stupid groups because the main focus was the Dr. Gay and Harvard scandal. I don't think they were trying to be dismissive of Gaza at all. they brought up student groups because that's what the origin of the movement to kick out Dr. Gay.

Samer

The point I was trying to make (perhaps poorly!) was that, in a long conversation about that phrase, and the accusation that the phrase is genocidal, they didn't bother to take the time to debunk that claim. I'm really not trying to be pedantic or petty, I just think the quality of this episode didn't really live up to the importance of the moment. Peter did a pretty good job of describing this exact phenomenon in that "worst takes" episode where he went into the way the ADL is weaponizing this. It would have been good (and, I think, easy!) to connect the dots similarly here. I'm less bothered by the claim that "Israel wasn't 100% responsible for October 7" (though I don't love the way they handled that either) than I am by the blasé way they handled something that has historically been a core strength of their podcast: systematically identifying and debunking coordinated smear campaigns against the left. In this case, arguably the highest stakes of anything they've talked about, they didn't even TRY.

Abby aka Boom Boom

This. Is an enslaved person killing their enslaver the same as the violence of slavery? Clearly not. Even conservatives rejoice *in retrospect* at liberation, but they and liberals fail to be bold in the current moment and declare support for freedom fighters. Even, especially, freedom fighters who were forced into their tactics based on the brutality of the repression they’re fighting.

Abby aka Boom Boom

Yes, and the IOF killed many of those 1200. Just to add an important piece of the puzzle. A la Hannibal Directive

Abby aka Boom Boom

The genocide of Palestinians began before last year. The Balfour Declaration with an intent of genocide was written in 1917. Zionism as a political concept came about in the 19th century. We are currently funding genocides in the DRC and Sudan.

TransFormAndFunction

What's Israel's occupying force is doing in Gaza (and the West Bank) is textbook genocide. It's not ambiguous in any way.

Moog

100%.

Samer

THIS HERE is why it was important for Michael and Peter to address the gaslighting about the ongoing genocide head on.

Krista Marshall

Also, I’m calling out to the fact that both Peter AND Michael have other podcasts where they no stop support and advocate for other issues. Why do this????? This is like such a fucking irresponsible and disgusting discussion of the genocide happening in Palestine. Yes, a colonial state that has been displacing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians since its creation is in fact 100% responsible for the violence happening. It is willing to sacrifice its own civilians in a “war” they know will include oppressed people fighting for their lives. That’s not even talking about the fact that you all are like satirical and jokey, ew. Like not shocked honestly that Michael is a whack take that reflects his lack of solidarity for any movement really. And we see you, Peter. You are literally an outspoken supporter of Palestinian liberation on 5-4. This is the most disappointing shit I’ve listened to in a minute. I really trust y’all so hopefully you apologize for michael’s fence sitting bullsh*t and Peter’s two narratives depending on the podcast platform

stan says I'm done with sergio

the smear campaign they are debunking is against DEI. the main focus of this episode was about the bullshit done to kick out Dr. Gay. also most of the IBCK audience probably knows or is aware that from the river to the sea isn't genocidal. like it's probably fair to say most people in here are pro Palestine. maybe there was an assumption that an explanation that it's bullshit isn't needed. they did call out how full of shit ackman and rufo are and hypocritical to demand privacy and want to doxx students. from their other platforms it's clear what side they are on. yes it would have been better to clarify.

stan says I'm done with sergio

I don't know why you're assuming he is fence sitting? you think he has different personalities and beliefs systems for podcasts? or did you construct a narrative that doesn't exist?

stan says I'm done with sergio

they aren't laughing about it like it's funny. in 5-4 they talk about terrible stuff all the time and use humor as a coping mechanism.

stan says I'm done with sergio

exactly the head of Stanford had much worse examples of plagiarism and nowhere near the same coverage

Krista Marshall

well, Kyle, I find it fascinating and incongruent that Peter is willing to empower/support a literal college student and recent graduate who were reprimanded for speaking out on behalf of Palestinian liberation on an episode of 5-4 where their (including Peter) conclusions were yes, students have the right to speak out strongly and in support of liberation. Further, that attempts to create misinformation and quiet student’s movements is wrong. And then on this podcast he is saying it’s in poor taste. To me, as a listener in both spaces, this is in fact two fairly different narratives

kindle

Lr, plz check out Ian papi. Ur not speaking the same language as the rest of us, and we're winning court cases left and right and a utterly massive global movement. There's a damn good reason for this, and it ain't funding

kindle

Restoration ark for these two? Are there any books do you think they should read and cover to provide context & course correct after this?

kindle

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Israeli historian Ilan Pappé

Lauren Traci

I think they were just putting the rest of the story about Gay in context, not trying to make any in depth statements on the situation in Gaza, and the only thing they disagreed with was that Israel was 100% responsible for 10/7. This whole situation is incredibly complex with decades of history and the obvious current genocide has people rightfully upset, emotions are high, but I think even if you disagree with the statements they made about where the blame lies, the point is when you make a deliberately inflammatory statement like the student activists did, it takes away from the message, placing blame instead of just saying, this is wrong what Israel is doing. That was Mike saying, “killing is bad”, not to dismiss that the genocide is fucking awful but that you can make a statement about it without saying what is basically conjecture. You can’t unequivocally say anything in 100+ years of international politics can be traced to any one thing. They also say that while the communications may have been flawed, they agree with them and that the slogan from the river to the sea is not genocidal at all and that it’s just a good short rhyme for activists. I can see how they could come across as flippant on the whole thing since it’s just background to the main story but I think it’s clear they are supportive of the students position on Gaza while seeing how they may have been short sighted and naive/idealistic with their statement. I feel Ike a lot of these comments are jumping to conclusions because it seems like both hosts have made it clear in this episode and on social media that they are pro Palestine but this isn’t the focus of the episode, it’s just context for the larger story.

Lauren Traci

I’m not sure why they would talk about current events when they were talking about a book published in 2011 or whenever. This isn’t a news or history podcast, and it seems like they assume their listeners know about it. It actually seems like some of it may have been cut due to time. Idk why they are expected to go into a detailed summary of current events when talking about an adjacent story which is the main focus of the episode.

Leena

Truly bizarre seeing so many folks commenting here to the effect of “I already know where these two men stand on something but I want them to say it” I know many people are drawn to the work of Peter and Michael (and a lot of other smart folks tasked with debunking work) because it feels like sense-making in what at times feels like an entirely insane world. I’m one of them! I love how the 5-4 team, the IBCK team, and the Maintenance Phase team all do a really great job when I want to scream “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!” of going “Inorite?!”. It feels comforting and was deeply important during long lockdowns and the pandemic especially. But if you already know where they stand and you’re mad they didn’t spend an hour retelling you then maybe it’s worth some introspection about your relationship with that sense-making catharsis and whether it’s fair to demand that on tap from these two people or to bring their integrity into question when you didn’t get it. Yes, we turn to these guys to help us make sense of the world as part of a balanced diet of other information. No, they shouldn’t have to take detours from the topic at hand to remind you they’re the good guys all the time.

Phoebe

They "took a detour" to frame the Harvard statement as immature and reactionary. Michael "took a detour" to say the Right finally had a case of campus culture going too far. They made their stance clear in this episode by saying that there's no contextualizing or justifying Hamas (even if you disagree with their tactics) and to try to provide context is the action of reactionary, immature undergrads. They don't have a stance other than that. It is completely fair to criticize them for their statements and framing of Palestinian self-determination as "going too far". When genocide is happening, when colonialism is happening, you don't get to intellectualize about what you, a removed party, think is best. You support the oppressed people in their struggle for liberation.

Phoebe

The situation is not complex. Palestine was colonized by the British, and then colonized by European Zionists who for 75+ years have carried out a genocidal project. As a result, Palestinians, the indigenous peoples, have tried several forms of resistance from peaceful delegation to armed resistance (a right of colonized peoples). Along the way, Israel has gained power and support from the US, and has fractured Palestinian society and ensured that they cannot civically engage. What the students activists did, as others in the comments have pointed out, is provide that context. The only people who think it's inflammatory are people who 1. Don't understand this context or 2. Use anything they can to claim antisemitism to deligitimize Palestinian self-determination. Their take on the statement is factually wrong and playing into the Right's, ADL's and Zionists' project to smear anyone supporting Palestine, especially if they are in an institution. Michael and Peter are wrong about this, even if they generally support Palestinians. But from what I've seen from Michael, he does not seem to support Palestinians' right to self defense.

Leena

Sorry, I just can’t get to that conclusion without a requisite amount of bad faith. Hand to my heart I find the idea anyone could genuinely suggest their position could be anything other than Palestinian self-determination to be coocoo bananas. You have to want to see that, and you gotta want it bad. Just because they didn’t say enough about a topic for your liking (on *one* episode of *one* podcast) doesn’t mean they’re going to dinner at Netanyahu’s house this weekend, c’mon guys.

Erin King

Disappointed that this episode was not titled “DEI 2: DEI Harder”

Paul McEvoy

you're suggesting I listen to a bunch of their other podcasts to find them making an appropriate take about genocide? I don't have to bud. I can just listen to people who are talking about genocide in real terms and have thoughtful takes that inform me. It's only funny when the take makes sense. Otherwise it's nauseating. And let me be super fucking clear: it's really easy to have the right take on killing 30,000 civilians in like 4 months.

Paul McEvoy

I'm not going to listen to 5 different podcasts to find a take that makes sense. I don't know about you. Personally I'm gripped on a daily basis by videos of dead children lying in rubble and the fact that I'm paying for that with my taxes. Apparently they have less stupid takes than this. Uh, cool. They have not helped me make sense of the world. They did a whole podcast mentioning genocide like 40x and did not mention the genocide we are DOING right now. Then they did a podcast that insulted people who were protesting the genocide that was just about to happen. This is dumb bullshit.

izzy

Don’t think I have anything to say that hasn’t already been expressed in this comment section. Incredibly disappointed with the way you both talked about and handled the discussion of the ongoing genocide. Can only hope you will address this criticism and grow from it because all I currently feel when listening to you guys is sick.

Jen Bowers

Totally agree Lauren. And Leena in another comment. Saved me some typing. If we're up in arms that Michael doesn't want Palestinian OR Israeli dead babies, what are you doing? It's actually pretty classic Michael to think that conflicts are multi factorial. Why act surprised about that? Also, if they were going to do an actual episode about Gaza (recall that this episode is about... the president of Harvard), why would they even want to now? They clearly can't make the people in these comments happy.

Jen Bowers

On this infrequently released podcast about airport books, I don't expect current events analysis. These bonus episodes are just that, bonuses, to me. You can find Peter's law school related Gaza commentary on 5-4. It's very good.

fig leaf

Hi all, if you'd like Mike + Peter to actually see your comments, please consider reaching out via email!!

Paul McEvoy

Did I say they were Zionist zealots? They seem like middle of the road Hamas is bad Israel is bad moderates who are watching a genocide and being like oh that's terrible, Hamas sort of started it. It seems like you're not making the nuanced argument.

Paul McEvoy

Is the NY Times Zionist zealots? Not really. But they definitely give Israel the benefit of the doubt over and over again and continue to push the Hamas bad, Oct 7th is equal in horror to what has happened in the meantime. All of which is total insanity. So if a media source like this one is going to position itself as having the moral high ground but then fails to do that entirely, they are going to get criticism. To me genocide is like a fire. You put it out and then you talk about it. Trying to parce out Claudine Gay's plagiarism allegations or criticizing a student statement that was actually inherently right but regardless is meaningless in the light of 30k deaths is just so tone deaf. If you are a fan, good for you.

stan says I'm done with sergio

I didn't say listen to it. do whatever you want. I'm saying the episode is about the DEI stuff. I think they assumed people would be aware of the events after October 7. you are inventing things to be mad about and assuming bad faith intentions and adding a level of both sidesism that isn't there.

Bean

I value the focus on details they bring and find it very useful sometimes when talking to people that don’t agree. The focus of this episode is the bad faith arguments being used against free speech. If you want an episode specifically about the genocide there are several excellent ones out there.

Moog

Dude, it's deeply dismissive to tell people they are unable "to use their pre-frontal cortex" because you think they're getting too heated about ethnic cleansing. (Oh, I'm so sorry this genocide gets you emotional, maybe you shouldn't be so loud amongst those of us who can still use our brains.)

Paul McEvoy

What a horrific thing to say. I think it is the deepest use of the human brain to ponder the evil of your own government and to suggest that it's a priority to stop torturing people who are already traumatized. I appreciate you think it's ok to take it slowly on stopping the torture of others. I would say, tbh, that your own brain is lacking in empathy. I'd also suggest that if these people or their family come at you in righteous anger that at that time you understand why. When there was a chance to speak up you instead encouraged others to be quiet. So. I think you're a dumbfuck.

Moog

It actually isn't that complex and I'd invite you to consider how the narrative of inescapable complexity allows us to remain complicit in an ongoing genocide.

Paul McEvoy

I have a better idea 1) don't make really insensitive comments about activists during a genocide 2) pay attention to the thoughts of the people paying for you to make a podcast. That's the point of patreon, no? I have yet to unsubscribe because I have been hoping perhaps that they will come out with some sort of apology/clarification but they are not seeing the 100s of comments here?

Paul McEvoy

Btw everyone on here is actually paying them to make the program. Criticizing it is not cancelling it, dummy.

fig leaf

Hi Paul, I am unsure why you are lurking in the comments of this post to lash out at strangers. This does not help Palestinians in the slightest nor is it a good use of anyone's time. Please rethink your strategy and priorities.

Vladimira

i think the desperate impotence of everyone watching powerlessly as a genocide unfolds in real time has put everyone on edge and we're snapping at each other because we seem to be the only ones listening. yelling at peter and michael because they didn't say exactly what you wanted them to in the exact time/way/place you wanted them to (despite knowing exactly where they stand) is brain worms behaviour, i'm sorry

Lizzie

Honestly wondering if I listened to the same podcast as the people commenting here

Lizzie

To express an opinion, same as every other comment?

Symone Thomas

To be honest if this wasn't a bonus episode maybe I would have stronger feelings about the Palestine section but considering we are all paying to be here wouldn't they be preaching to the choir? This isn't a public episode

Jimbo Slice

I made it 6 seconds into the clip of the hearing before I gave up. Bless you for the work you do.

Potato

I'm gonna stop my membership at least for now, extremely disappointing right wing scolding of activist language without interrogating your assumptions at all

Paul McEvoy

I'm paying for this. Their take is so much worse than so many people who are speaking from their hearts for free. I have had so many media sources that I had at least some amount of trust in let me down. So I'm not snapping here I'm voicing the disgust that people are still not able to very clearly define where they stand when 30k civilians have been murdered. It is easy to be cool if you lack empathy. I'm not asking them to say what I want them to say. I'm asking them to find better things that I should say and think and do. That's the point of listening to people's ideas. But they are still dicking around with ideas that were lame and thoughtless 2 or 3 months ago.

Paul McEvoy

I don't particularly think I'm lashing out here. This is a patreon site. I am paying them to produce content. That's the whole point. They don't monitor their patreon? That's dumb. Everyone else I subscribe to on patreon does. The majority of comments here are negative. I'm not really sure why you're policing people's thoughts and feelings as well. But if you are in touch with them you might suggest to them that they deal with what seems to be a lot of people unsubscribing. As of yet I have not but it would be really nice to hear their reaction.

Paul McEvoy

Their last regular episode mentioned genocide multiple times without mentioning the one that was actually happening at that very time. Very bizarre experience.

fig leaf

You are lashing out at other commenters including myself. If telling you to be less nasty to strangers is "policing people's thoughts and feelings," guess I'm a cop ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ Since you are so concerned, reach out to them yourself. Their email is on the pod's website. I have no more or less contact with them than you do. Another option is unsubscribing. You are always entitled to your beliefs, but as always, being a rude troll is not an acceptable reaction as it is rude and unhelpful.

Vladimira

lack empathy? dude, come on

Hormiga Katzstein

The number of people here mad at the comment "killing people is bad" is impressive.

Paul McEvoy

A number of people recommended the Citations Needed Podcast, I just realized there's two podcasts by that name, one of which I listened to and is God awful. FYI I'll check out the other one.

Daniel Couper

The only path left is mass slaughter of civilians? That's not brave, that's just murder on an immense scale. Saying that's bad...that's not controversial or fence sitting or pandering to a lobby or whatever other mental gymnastics you seem to want to use to justify it. It just reads like every other romanticisation of gangsters who sing the right political notes . You can be in full opposition to the situation without falling into that trap.

Luiza

Please do Factfulness please

Andrew Bryson

They must be just *furious* about Mennonite Action Network

courtenay

For those of you here looking for another podcast that's been doing the good work when it comes to Palestine, I'd highly suggest The Red Nation Podcast.

courtenay

honestly, Michael, you should listen to the Red Nation Podcast. And read some post colonial theory. for someone who seems to love research so much, it feels like you could have spent the last few months doing research about Gaza before opening your mouth to speak about things that you obviously don't understand.

RODERICK BOYD

At some level I'd thought the comments might be about the episode. Look how wrong you can be.

M

Dang this is really disappointing. This podcast has been toeing the line for a while in a lack in self-awareness from Peter and Michael when speaking on topics that harm marginalized folks but this is egregious. I hope you both take the time to learn from this and I will be ending my subscription.

Paul McEvoy

Come on what? I assume everyone here is comfortably sitting in a house eating plenty of food, warm and clothed. It is a super comfortable position to be judging events from far away. I would say the vast majority of Americans I know are barely aware that there's anything at all happening in Gaza. A lot of pretty ostensibly liberal people I know seem uncomfortable about even making a statement about genocide. To be honest I am not sure how as just a normally average moral person people are not screaming at the top of their lungs about this. It's a historical level of depravity. There are plenty of voices who are very clearly stating the way things are right now. But a much larger percentage of people who seem to have mouths full of marbles who can't call the thing by its name. Anyway, yeah I think it's a lack of empathy when we are watching people being murdered in large quantities while waiting for bread but we are quibbling about the words of student activists who predicted what was going to happen. It's like your house is on fire but your neighbor wants to talk about the time when someone pulled the fire alarm when there was no fire. I don't know what it's like to be honest. Like a lot of things that are happening now, it's inexplicable. But I can definitely take my little patreon money, as many people seem to be doing here, and give it to someone who is actually being thoughtful about things as they stand.

Paul McEvoy

I'll check it out. I listened to one of the citations needed episodes and it was excellent.

Ben R

These comments are the leftish version of "Do you condemn Hamas?"

Paul McEvoy

It's kinda more like "was the Holocaust pretty unfortunate or historically horrific?". Not super complicated. Not so much left or right but just human.

hey_boo

Same. It seems folks are commenting on an episode that isn’t behind a paywall?

Leena

Are you able to articulate what they could actually do to make this right (by you) besides cry and say how bad genocide is twelve times more and whip themselves or something? Like what’s your idea of justice here? If there isn’t one then maybe that’s worth some reflection. Continuing to rail against people who can never make it right with you is such a waste.

Leena

You’re not paying them to produce content, you’re paying to access it. And if you had this many subscribers over so many different podcasts I can almost guarantee you wouldn’t be making sure you’re across all the comments and discords and slacks and reddits. It’s a mammoth task and it’s always the pits because people feel entitled as fuck and treat people like services.

schlu

I subscribed and was astonished to witness the atrocious hell-scape called patreon comment-section. It was a nice and informative episode on a topic that as a non-american seems puzzling to say at least, good job and thank you!

Soo Lincoln

They did mention it explicitly by name. Peter talks about melting down about: ' having a conversation about [students'] abstract slogans and statements when an actual genocide is taking place' Listen again. It's just about 8 mins in.

ES

Omg same!! I’m reading all these comments about how they’re so uneducated on Palestinian history and I’m like did you guys skip the first half of the podcast where they express extremely clearly that what’s happening to Palestine is bad???? That Israel is doing something bad to Palestine?????

ES

I have an opinion on Mike’s pronunciation of “celebratory.”

TransFormAndFunction

How many comments do you think you have in this thread, Paul M?

Gabby Finan

exactly what I was thinking. Peter and the rest of the 5-4 team (including Rhiannon, who is Palestinian) have put out great information on the genocide, how people have lost their jobs as a result of supporting Palestine, etc. highly encourage everyone to check that out

Gabby Finan

the discussion on student activists in this episode is really interesting, considering that 5-4 pretty openly supports the students and their statements. also, its just such a bad take to reduce student activism to "these dumb kids these days with no tact"

Augusto Dabos

People are responding to something that they said in the episode. You just value your comfort over the lives of children

Leena

Oh come the fuck on

Catharine Smith

I've read other comments like this and really need to listen to more 5-4 content. I am so surprised to hear that podcast is so supportive of Palestine when this one was kind of disparaging of this pov.

Gabby Finan

yeah they have a couple rly good episodes about palestine. one of the hosts is actually Palestinian-American

Gabby Finan

one in particular that talks about law students losing their job offers and early career jobs for supporting Palestine and being IN SJP

Paul McEvoy

A bunch. How many comments, in general, have you made when your country is participating in a genocide? It seems like you are suggesting that talking in strong terms during a genocide is somehow not cool. Certainly though I'm agitated at this moment. Watching formerly respectable new outlets like the NY Times eat shit on this while kids are dying is beyond frustrating. Listening to people whose whole show is about tearing apart other people's takes eat shit also is frustrating, particularly when I'm paying for it. Which I'm no longer doing. But your suggestion that we be more polite and less vocal during a genocide is duly noted. I would ask, honestly, if the person you want to be is one who sits in their hands during what is a historical atrocity? Because that's pretty fucking lame. Anyway personally it was a really interesting discussion, people pointed out some super excellent podcasts that have been great, I would also suggest Bad Hasbara and Daniel Mate and if I annoyed you or anyone else, I truly don't give a shit.

Paul McEvoy

Also the Bad Hasbara podcast and Daniel Mate in general (on IG and YouTube)

Paul McEvoy

A) Is someone crying? Are you crying? Wtf are you talking about? B) very, very simple: address what is happening in Israel as a genocide, don't demean activists who were speaking out at the beginning of this predicting exactly what was to happen and took great personal and professional damage to say the right thing. I think you think it's complicated which I think points to some moral confusion on your own part. I mean also yeah I guess don't do an entire podcast mentioning genocide many times (the Pinker episode) without even casually mentioning that there is one going on right now that we are paying our tax dollars for? You think that's complicated?

Paul McEvoy

Just saying: saying something is "bad" is sometimes not good enough. American Healthcare policy is "bad". The drug war is "very bad". Our border policy is "very very bad". Honestly those things in themselves are worse than bad. But if I was to say what the Germans did to the Jews in the Holocaust was "bad" or that gassing large groups of people is "bad", I think it would be super reasonable to call me out on that, no? So to mince words on Palestine right now, or to say that what Israel is doing is "bad" but also Hamas is also "bad" falls pretty far short and should rightfully be pointed out. We are watching a historical atrocity live streamed (if you care to watch it). It's not "bad". It's unspeakable. Btw if you are not totally up to speed I would recommend looking at the eyes on Palestine Instagram account. The other issue is that most media is not reflecting what is actually happening and to see that level of ignorance magnified in this podcast is worthy of comment.

Lizzie

Thank you, this is a good point. I disagree with the comments that they are fence sitting, but I understand your point that calling it “bad” is totally insufficient at this moment.

Paul McEvoy

Thank you for responding. I'm not suggesting they are monsters or anything. At the moment though I think the spectrum of acceptable reactions is fairly limited. I may come across as an absolutist but I am 100% not in general. At the moment though I'm pretty devastated by what's going on and the sort of blase reactions to it. I highly recommend you look for Daniel Mates response to Brene Brown on YouTube, I can't link to it at the moment. But it is the most thorough and thoughtful analysis of all of this that I have seen.

Pluto

1000% this. The episode is about black misogynoir, and how easy it was for ultra far-right pundits to successfully a black woman's career, despite her proximity to power/elites and how this is laying the groundwork for quickly disassembling affirmative action ... from a podcasts that's openly called out several issues. Folks, these are not the bad guys 😅 I understand the fear and frustration, there are too many genocides happening right now (Palestine, Congo, Sudan, Uyghurs). But it's really messed up how the almost 80mins about black misogynoir are dismissed because people didn't like their tone in the first 10mins... Aaaanyway, I enjoyed this episode. I hope folks find the peace they're looking for to keep up the good fight.

TransFormAndFunction

“But your suggestion that we be more polite and less vocal during genocide is noted.” You read a lot into my question that wasn’t there, and falsely attributed those ideas to me. Do you do that often? Are you aware that you’ve done this throughout the thread, or is it subconscious? Does allowing space for others to talk feel the same as doing nothing? Is the act listening really the same to you as sitting on your hands and doing nothing? Listening is an action, and an important one. And being over 10% of these comments doesn’t mean you’re contributing more, it just means you’re talking more. It IS frustrating to feel a lack of agency while horror unfolds on multiple fronts. But starting fights on social media as a proxy for the fight that really matters doesn’t actually help anyone, especially if you pick fights by misrepresenting the words of the people around you. It’s okay to allow space for other people, to allow space for yourself to ACTUALLY hear them. I won’t respond again, lest I throw more fuel on the flames of your proxy war in these comments. Good luck, Paul.

Lindsay Larson Call

Thanks for pointing me to this video. Appreciated his analysis.

Jenny O'Shanick

Hi Michael and Peter. I have always admired your work, especially always willing to look at complex issues with same level of complexity and providing context/background. I was very surprised at your description of the student protestors, who are using one of the only means of power at their disposal to speak out against this atrocious genocide and speaking up for the oppressed and marginalized. Your description seemed in stark contrast to your past work and especially especially you know what kind of platform and power you hold in your work/journalism. I will be unsubscribing for now.

Kevin Yan

This is such a great episode, yet imagine my surprise at the vitriol showing in the comments section. The Israel/Palestine genocide has been one of the most complex and hair-trigger emotional topics in recent history, and not everybody needs to have a public, well-defined opinion, especially when you run a podcast about books that also happens to talk about politics. The comments in the episode were nuanced and not particularly inflammatory, and yet look at what it's wrought. The people who are unsubscribing need to take a step back and just breathe for a second. Peter and Michael are undoubtedly allies, and this sort of in-fighting will get us nowhere.

Paul McEvoy

Yeah I'm super impressed with him. Baldwinesque level of thought. He's on the Bad Hasbara podcast sometimes and is excellent.

Catharine Smith

Just for the folks in the back: this is not a complex issue. That is a lie we have been sold by lobbyists trying to obscure a 75 year ethnic cleansing campaign.

Paul McEvoy

100% it's simple AF. I actually think everyone should have a super defined, public opinion about genocide. Particularly people who talk about politics. Especially.

Car Atkinson

Unrelated: I would love it if you would check out one of Anna Lembke's books. They're just so devoid of any societal consideration for what drives drug use, and they're full of bad stats.

brynne

Here to echo the well stated sentiments of many here - I’m proud to be in the company of you who were disappointed by this milquetoast, liberal take. May we see the Palestinian resistance outlive Israel. I hope Mike and Peter will learn from this, but until then I will be unsubscribing.

Paul McEvoy

I guess than don't leave cryptic comments then? Just say what you think? I read into it because it seemed intended to be demeaning. Personally I've listened to a number of people here and got a lot out of the discussion. I would say that the majority of my comments here are responding to people who have said that people who take issue with these episodes are somehow wrong in their interpretation. Despite the majority of comments reflecting that. Similar to yours. You want me to listen to you? Well than say something of substance. People are responding to nuanced critiques of these episodes by denying that there might be any issue at all. So if you're suggesting people listen better I'm suggesting perhaps you respond the same way to people who are entirely dismissive of the critiques. And good luck to you too. My suggestion is that if you have something to say you say it instead of taking cryptic potshots and then being agast that someone reads into them.

Leena

I didn’t say it was complicated at all, are you high?

Joe Peters

Adding my name to the list of folks unsubscribing for this massive disappointment of an episode.

Joe Peters

Can’t wait for “Worst Takes of 2024”

rock dove

This makes me insane. I went to college with a guy who was literally in front of all the pictures of the Nazis at Charlottesville and he was allowed to graduate and we had zero support from the administration about a literal proud white supremacist and yet...

Paul McEvoy

Leena If you want to make an argument, make one. You're expecting me to extract meaning out of some idiotic bullshit. You start this "you're crying" stuff. Did you get that from the MAGA people? Either make an argument on merits or STFU. I answered your question to the best of my parsing out what you were trying to say. I pointed out some very easy ways to make things right. Speaking of people who just want to yell at people incoherently, I suggest you look in the mirror.

Denise PAYAN

Really didn't want to unsubscribe because this and Michael's other podcasts are some of my favorites. Maybe it the age difference but I feel like the takes are more and more out of touch. Writing off activists as dumb/tactless kids when they talk about resistance to a settler colonial (genocidal) state is wild. It is not an overreaction, its not inappropriate, in fact its the opposite. ITS NECESSARY to remind the world that the Palestinian resistance is exactly that, a resistance to the violence and displacement they have faced for 70+ years.

Sandiego

My brother was saying the same a few months ago, honestly don't know who got to him. Afraid to ask.

Elisheva Carl

Who are you looking to protect? How will you actions or words protect the people in your server or that you have direct interaction with? Act local

Orla Spurr

I haven't seen any vitriol in the comments yet, just a lot of people expressing disappointment. Frankly, it is not unreasonable to be upset about genocide

Fabienne

I was similarly surprised by the take on the student activist response but not enough to unsubscribe. I wish they would've elaborated on why they felt that way since it seemed so inconsistent with the rest of the show (and 5-4, which I also follow.) To me it seemed like there was something they weren't saying and instead glazed over with a very broad brush that clearly rubbed a lot of listeners the wrong way. My question is what gesture or language would have demonstrated the appropriate amount of tact without risking coming across as 'milktoast' and ultimately ineffectual?

wes

it's so obvious michael and peter are on the right side of history re: palestine, this comment section is nuts lol

Megan

People love to say issues are complicated/complex, especially when it’s a popular issue that lots of people have opinions on. IMO its very condescending to assume that the people who have strong, clear opinions just don’t understand the issue, and it’s a deflection to avoid addressing that maybe they DO understand and they just have more backbone than you do. Many of these supposedly complex and difficult to understand issues may have a lot of history and a lot of stakeholders with competing interests, but often if you have a clear and well developed moral compass and principles it’s actually quite easy to pick a clear side without being wishy washy about it. Just saying “well it’s so complicated” is a spineless deflection. Anyway, free Palestine.

Mimi Garcia

Service in the IDF is required for Israelis (except for the ultra orthodox).

Andagi

I got confused when Peter started quoting Adam Johnson because I sometimes confuse them for the same person; snarky, really tired of capitalist bullshit, co-host of debunking podcasts

Kelly Cahill

The worst thing to me about this episode is the tone, I can’t get through the first five minutes. Lighthearted banter is not an appropriate tone to take when discussing a genocide that is currently in progress, that your country is funding.

and rhiannon's commentary is even better. never once have i heard peter give anything back to her but enthusiastic agreement. i think behind a paywall of near-homogenous political opinion, peter and michael don't have to toe a public rhetorical line. we can agree behind closed doors that when the dust settles, all of this is tragic. i say this as someone that bikes around right-wing corn-country midwest US with a 4'x6' Palestinian flag for all the fundamentalist townies to seathe over, and donated 4 figures worth of aid money to hasan's most recent material support drive. Among friends we do not have to broadcast our beliefs, we all know what our beliefs are on the topic.

i am simply here to validate the uncontroversial fact that Michael's Donkey Kong 64 joke was, in fact, very good.

kdz246

There are so many issues with this framework, but perhaps the largest is that it fails to contextualize the violence of Hamas in an ongoing situation of dispossession and disenfranchisement. Simply put, if impassioned pleas to and subsequent statements from the UN, the organization designed to facilitate non-violent mediation between nations, cannot stop the genocide of the Palestinian people by the Israeli government, what the fuck are they supposed to do? This worldview reeks of a naivety that takes the structures of liberal society as given without acknowledgement of how they have historically failed people at their margins, or worse yet, how that marginalization has often been integral in maintaining those structures.

kdz246

I agree with most of the sentiments of disappointment but also will not be unsubscribing, though not out of some big tent politics of avoiding ideological conflict. Early on, I was fairly certain about their limitations as white (passing) liberals, good liberals, well-meaning and somewhat self-aware liberals, several rungs above AOC liberals, but liberals nonetheless. Michael at least has always been very transparent about the inescapable presence of ideology and bias in media. At the end of the day, it's just entertainment. And the only damage will be if you let two dudes who mostly sit at their computers all day stop you from following through with your own beliefs and convictions.

Saya Clarke

You are just correct. No question. And personally I don’t feel entitled to police Palestinian people, one of if not the most oppressed group of people on the planet, on how they are and are not allowed to resist their oppression from my comfortable armchair in the imperial core. They are fighting a military and government that openly, even erotically fantasizes about their complete and total annihilation. Full stop. Bless them for standing on their feet and giving them hell.

Yuri

I’m very surprised at these comments and allegations of “fence sitting” when the segment is overwhelmingly pro Palestine. The point of contention seems to be their comments about the students statements lacking tact and/or ignoring certain moral nuances in their opinion. While they may disagree with the statement they go on to explain why criticism against the students statement was not only unjust but overall made in bad faith and part of a larger plan to villainize pro Palestinian activism. Not to mention that they flat out agree and acknowledge that what is going on in Palestine IS a genocide. Where is the fence sitting?!

Elly B

They literally call the Palestine/Israel conflift a genocide in the episode... I think it's unfair to say this.

Eddy Wyn

This is probably a repeat suggestion, but please please please cover the wretchedly bogus Hillbilly Elegy.

Eddy Wyn

Thank you! There is a weird glitch in Apple podcasts that sometimes lists episodes as "played" when I haven't played them. That must be what happened.

Moonlight

You're welcome (it's like finding a block of chocolate you forgot you bought hidden in your kitchen drawer, it's nice when it happens!).

Sarah S

What is your issue with the episode?

Shain Raley

Refreshing to see that there is one other person in this shit show comment section that actually knows the history of the middle east. Ignore the brainless. You're 100% correct.

Shain Raley

I told you guys to stay away from the I/P situation. Now look at your comment section, full of people who are just as uninformed as you, proving how rabid and bloodthirsty the "pro palestine" movement really is. These are your friends. A war is not a genocide. The fact that you don't know the definition of genocide is embarrassing. Your eagerness to push the holocaust inversion theory is worse. Maybe instead of speaking from your faux moral high ground about issues which are clearly way over your head, you should be telling your "activist" friends that burning down Jewish community centers, murdering Jews at pro-palestine rallies, driving their cars into school buildings because they think there might be a Jew inside, or trapping Jewish students and teachers in classrooms while they threaten to murder them is not going to "free palestine." As for the rest of you losers, Israel isn't going anywhere. You can wank all day to the fantasy that hamas is going to someday murder all the arabs, jews, bedouin, and druze in Israel so they can turn it into Iran II, but it's never going to happen. Die mad, dick in hand.

kdz246

I'll bite. Can you verify that any of those acts of violence were committed by activists rather than by anti-semites or even just unstable people who chose violence? Most pro-Palestinian activists I know are focusing on disrupting the social, political, and economic infrastructure within the US that enables the occupation and, yes, genocide of the Palestinian people. Or are you deeply invested in the propaganda that conflates criticism of Israel or opposition to Zionism with antisemitism?

Jessamy Klapper

^And there you have it - there are indeed rabidly racist anti-Palestinian folks who follow this podcast (and even subscribe to the Patreon). So it IS important that Michael and Peter - and everyone else who stands *against* genocide speaks up on whatever platform they have. Any number of books that has justified, validated, dismissed, or minimized the ongoing oppression and genocide (it's been a genocide since the beginning, only it is accelerated now) of Palestinians would be a perfect fit for If Books Could Kill..since these books certainly played a role in the actual killing of people. Or books and authors that participate in culture-washing, pink-washing, or green-washing of the occupation ...take your pick.

Jessamy Klapper

also the entitlement of being like "i told you guys not to" 0__0

Christina Hernandez

I'm just here to tell you that as a crossover Maintenance Phase and IBCK fan, Michael's little sing-songy "the discourse" from the Ozempic episode lives in my head rent-free. And now whenever anyone on either of these two podcasts says the word "discourse," I hear Michael as a "tiny repeating machine"

Catharine Smith

I spent 60 hours researching the Israel/Palestine conflict FULLY thinking I would come out Pro-Israel because of my background and family. I did not and you can get bent trying to paint me and other people who support Palestine as "misinformed". I hate that anti-semites have used this movement to justify their actions, but you are so wrong to conflate pro-Palestine sentiments as antisemitic and to encourage people not to address what is clearly a genocide.

Amelia

Lol, imagine paying for the content made by people you don't like. You're not the winner of this situation dude.

Yuri

They are pro Palestine but please feel free to to continue giving them your genocide loving money (:

L

I’m listening to the first few minutes and am pretty shocked by their “tactless statements of students” criticism. Israel is 100% to blame for the violence. I’m disappointed in them for not backing the student statements. Came to the comments to see if it’s going to get better or worse. Seems like it gets better, but I still don’t think that their take is the right one.

L

Well said!

L

They can actually serve a short (something like 30-90 days) prison sentence (their prison is nice) to avoid it. It’s def seen by then popular culture as dishonorable but ppl have done to avoid having to kill children and shit

L

It’s bc they took the “scolding the tactless students” route when what the students said is v true - and those for Palestinian liberation don’t give a shit about tact in the face of a 75 year genocide. For those of us who are educated on Palestine’s history (esp those of us who knew BEFORE Oct 7) what they said is a slap in the face to all activists speaking out. It’s more aligned w liberals who tone police valid protest and anger and strong words about GENOCIDE. So, yeah, while it was only a couple of sentences - it rubbed many of us the wrong way

L

I think it’s ok to voice being upset on the topic of ppl tone policing those speaking out about genocide. And if ppl expressing that “upsets” you, pls find a moral compass to realize what is more important

Kara Deadmon

Dear lord, as a DEI follow-up, could you two please talk about what is happening at NPR currently? A business editor publishing "they've gone too far!" re diversity, etc at NPR. Or I'm sorry - on the "lack of diversity of viewpoints" (eye roll) at NPR. I know it would be revisiting a lot, but could you all just bonus-episode walk through his lil opinion he published on the Free Press? The whole essay is SUCH an encapsulation of what you talk about regularly. He mentions affinity groups! He made an appearance on Bari Weiss's podcast! Ahhhhhhhhhh...my brain is melting...

Anja

It's so funny, the only reason why these two think the right had a "gotcha" moment with University students is because they don't understand what's happening in Palestine 😂😂😂 When people say "Israel is responsible for all the violence in Israel and Palestine" they normally don't mean that, literally, Israel planned and executed all the violence. What they are pointing out is the fact that Israel is a colonial power and a Jewish ethnostate. It was founded following a Nakba - ethnic cleansing and expulsion of over 500, 000 Palestinians from their homeland. It then followed up by 76 years of apartheid, which included a brutal siege of Gaza (why else do you think they were able to announce that they will switch off food, water, fuel and electricity to all of Gaza and the do it???), described even by the British right wing villain David Cameron as "an open air prison" years ago. It also included building illegal colonial outposts in West Bank ("settlements") and brutal violence year on year in the part of Palestinian territory that has no links with Hamas, with hundreds of people murdered yearly and thousands taken hostage and held in Israeli military prisons (including children, including throughout 2023 BEFORE October 7th). Hamas did most certainly commit grievous war crimes on October 7 (these crimes did not include the debunked "vile murder of 40 babies" and a systemic use of rape as a weapon - although one baby was shot while hidden in a safe room and that is one baby too many). But the reason Israel is responsible for that violence is the 76 years of humiliation, oppression, murder and grievous harm of Palestinians. Israel is a state, a nuclear superpower, clearly supported by the US, UK and German government, and that support clearly continues despite Israel LITERALLY starving 2.2 million people, killing over 50000 people including over 15000 children and BRAGGING about their grievous war crimes and crimes against humanity on social media.

Gwendolyn Lloyd

Decided to take a little break from writing my dissertation only for Peter and Michael to hit me with a dissertation plagiarism episode with accidental plagiarism

Almog Ash

If we're speaking of bad faith interpretations, the beginning of this episode is a prime example. I love this podcast, but you're framing it as if people's main concern about the protests is bad tact statements and 'river to the sea' chants. The very real threats and harassment of jewish students is what the hearing was about. You can't possibly not know this. It's about calls for intifada, kids being chased into libraries and 'final solution' signs. Then again, the hearing didn't even get as far as discussing the difference between pro pali activism and antisemitism bc the presidents didn't even concede that blatantly calling for the genocide of jews is against regulations. How are you ok with this? I just don't get it.

YASHA

It's kinda horrifying to see how many people here are trying to muddy the waters on what's ultimately a very simple conflict. It takes a single google search to look back to how this all started, it's not complicated. The only people that seem to want this conflict to continue, want to complicate the situation until the only solution to the problem is to retain the status quo.

Tyler Larson

"die mad, dick in hand" says totally reasonable person

Skippy the Alien

you're jerking yourself off even though you're literally paying for access to this podcast. what an assclown you are

Gant Diede

Do you ever feel remorse for buying into complete bullshit while children are being murdered for the very cause that you are buying into?

Richard Ogoe

The hearings were focused on calls to genocide though. If they had brought up the harassment during the hearings then they absolutely would have condemned it. The presidents are right. It wasn't against regulation. Even FIRE, an organization who was part of the attempt to oust them from power agreed.

Richard Ogoe

Giant Diede, that is such a disgusting thing to say to another human being who has no power over the situation in Israel/Palestine. We should never forget that we all share a common humanity.

ES

Which sentences? I genuinely don’t mean to be a jerk, but whatever rubbed people the wrong way went way over my head. All I’ve gotten from their comments is a deep sense of horror.

Manatee Power

Richard: You can preach about how we share a "common humanity", when you implicitly defend genocide.

Manatee Power

almog: it's very obvious you don't get it. The charges of "antisemitism", were overblown to the point of being non-existent (people holding final solution signs weren't Palestinian protestors" Meanwhile, we had pro-israel counter protestors literally fucking assaulting Palestinian protestors, that neither you or the university care about.

ES

Wait, is THAT what all these comments are about!?! I have listened to this episode over and over and haven’t been able to detect what people are on about. Is the objection that they acknowledged that Hamas did some terrible stuff and the fact that Israel is bombing the shit out of Palestine does not make Hamas the “good guys” by default!?!? Is that the problem????? I am absolutely in the side of innocent civilians in Gaza, but I don’t think that means I have to be cool about 1200 Jews being murdered in a single day.

Morgan Bartlett

I'm really late reading all these but I truly appreciate your comment!! In case you ever see this, anyway 😅.

Richard Ogoe

First, my reasons for demanding we show humanity to Jewish and/or Israeli people is core to why I'm opposed to the war in the first place. We shouldn't punish entire groups for the actions of a few. Second, I'm a critic of the war but no reasonable definition of genocide fits the situation and, frankly, the insistence on that terminology and attempting to wage a moral battle instead of focusing on material actions that Israel has taken is probably the single biggest tactical mistake the pro-Palestine movement has made.

Karolina Warchoł

Thank you for this episode. Polish right-wing politicians have been using the pro-Palestinian totally fake stance to implicitly express their real antisemitism. They are the same people who talk about close relations with goats the other day. It's just insane. It's also very rare that anyone publicly supports Israel in Poland. Or I just live in a bubble.

Lydthekidmaybenowmid

Typically in a war, one side is not able to cut off food and electricity from the other. Check the ICC ruling. This is an occupation and a genocide. Words do matter. Have you read the ICC ruling on what do a genocide and why Gaza fits the bill? I have.

Ona

People in the comments aren’t saying that what Hamas did isn’t bad. They’re saying that the fact that they felt compelled to do it is Israel’s fault, which it is

Lilith Anderson

Its funny that we now know that a lot of the "hamas-caused" civilian casualties on oct 7th 2023 were infact anything but.

Lilith Anderson

and by funny I mean israel is the absolute #1 source of actual antisemitism in the world right now

Audrey Benoit

I recently subscribed so I’m listening old episodes. I do cognitive testing for a living, this is behind paywall so I’m gonna take the risk of burning a test question. I often have to ask people to define « to plagiarize ». 95% of people answer « it mean to copy » which requires me to prompt them to elaborate as it is an incomplete answer. People are almost systematically will say that’s it I have nothing to add or just say « it’s copying someone’s answers on an exam ». The full points answer is « to claim someone’s work as your own/put your name on someone else’s work». I think Peter alluded to this, but the vast majority of people do not know what the real definition of plagiarism is, surprisingly not uncommon even if they have a university degree.

Cuss

If I may contribute to this discussion a little late: I think Michal and Peter have unequivocally made statements that are anti-genocide which is the minimum I expect from anyone whose opinion I respect. Still, in 2026, I don’t believe I’ve seen either of them explicitly endorse self determination of colonized people which is disappointing. I still am an avid listener and really appreciate their contributions in areas of greater expertise but I bring this up because framing a conversation about self determination as a fringe idea from misguided and idealistic youth serves to normalize colonialism as something that’s over and done with, can’t do anything about it now. This is actually relevant to the meta-discourse of this podcast and the nation’s tendency toward reactionary centrism and the left hedging center right. I don’t think the flip comments made on this episode are wholly reflective of their opinions and understanding but it rubbed me the wrong way to hear the activist’s slogans and demands dismissed and I mean to evaluate those statements on the merits, not the technicalities of speech.

Cuss

Addendum: I think ideas about Palestinian self-determination and reparations deserve some intellectual legitimacy even if the current situation makes that far from feasible in the immediate future. I know that Peter is friends with Rhiannon of 5-4, Popular Cradle, and Palestinian descent. I don’t think it’s possible that either of them could have failed to encounter these ideas in a serious context. And I think that living in the U.S. does make it seem like the colonial project is over and done with because our own remaining native people are corralled onto reservations but not being actively destroyed by a military campaign and that’s just supposed to be good enough because we can’t undo the past.

Douglas Woodhouse

I've been going back and relistening to old Patreon bonus episodes, and honestly, you guys should slowly transition the podcast to be more like these bonus episodes. You guys really shine when you're talking about the issues of the day.