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Episode 74: A CLASH OF KINGS, PROLOGUE: "Red, Part 2" (Patreon)

Published:
2019-08-12 11:00:02
Imported:
2026-06
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ACOK Prologue Part 2 is now available for everyone!

Comments

Ashley Borhart

Very appropriate that our introduction to ultimate middle child, Stannis, came out on National Middle Child Day. Such a great episode, guys! So appreciative of your analysis and your passion on the topic.

Connor Mufich

This is some of the best analysis I have ever heard in the entire fandom. I’m wrapping up my second listen because it’s so dense (in the best way!!). So happy to be a part of this community and to have such rich characters to explore!

Hunding

Enjoyed this a very great deal, one of your best. You comment that his Duty Robot schtick is just a front to disguise his emotional decision to pursue being a king. I think that’s true to a point, but it’s only superficially convincing because Duty Robot is already Stannis’ ground-state. Doing his duty, following rules, enforcing hard justice, these are his ways to keep the darkness out. The dutiful, just thing is how he convinces himself that he’s a good person, and in the absence of any other factors he would choose the most dutiful option every time. The problems arise when he can convince himself that it is dutiful to let the darkness out (Shireen…). (There are those who have constructed a case than Stannis’ social awkwardness and rigid thinking stem from some flavour of Aspergers; I don’t know enough to comment but if one of your fans is a psychiatrist maybe invite them on to explore that, and whether there’s a case for bipolar Rhaegar, autistic Victarion etc. and whether that helps us understand them as characters.) I’m reminded of House MD S5E17 where a patient was described as a natural Slytherin who chose to be in Gryffindor. With Stannis this choice happens on every page. On which note, Harry, Hermione, and Ron map roughly onto Robert, Stannis, and Renly as the Hero, the Unsung Competent One, and the Lovable Idiot. The depth of Stannis’ character shows us how deeply JK Rowling, if she'd wanted to write different books, could have mined Hermione grappling with the idea that she was objectively ten times as badass as Harry but never got to be the protagonist. I'm a real-world Hermione, and I’m *completely fine* with this. Oh, yes.

OMGBEARS

I really enjoyed your thoughts on what, in the books, will lead Melisandre and Stannis to burn Shireen. Certainly these are the main agents of Shireen’s fate, but I was wondering if you had thoughts about Selyse‘s role or reaction. Is she going to be in full zealot mode, or will her role be similar to the show?

Ser Erik, the Guilty Undertaker

Listening to you talk about Stannis and possible connections between his story and Dany's and Jon's, I think I've figured out the main reason why Dany's dark turn at the end of Season 8 didn't quite land for a lot of people, myself included: it needed Aegon Targaryen, Sixth of his Name, to serve as Dany's Renly. Dany needed to be confronted with the revelation that, after all she'd been through, and after all she'd done, including playing a key role in saving the world and ending (or perhaps preventing) the Long Night, the realm still doesn't want her as their queen. They'd rather have Aegon VI, Varys' perfect prince. He claims to be the son of Rhaegar, who, especially after the disaster of the Wot5K, many look back upon and wonder if this all could have been avoided if Rhaegar could have only become king. His Moses-like story of being spirited away and raised in secret to return and save the realm only adds to his messianic image. Nothing like a good story, as Tyrion would say. But perhaps most of all, Dany's gender is against her: as we saw in Fire & Blood and TwoIaF, the Lords of Westeros had numerous opportunities to crown a woman as a ruling queen and refused each time. Dany being the daughter of the Aerys II wouldn't help her case either, especially, if the choice is between the Mad King's daughter and the handsome young Aegon VI, son of the posthumously beloved Rhaegar. The kicker, of course, is that Aegon (likely unbeknownst to him) is not who he claims to be. And Tyrion suspects as much and he just so happens to be in just the right place to tell Dany. Imagine if, after the peach incident, Stannis were to discover that Renly was actually an imposter; imagine further, that he happened to have control over a fully grown dragon. I think things would have gotten very hot for not only Renly, but the Knights of Summer who so foolishly followed him (I'll see myself out). In the show, there was no one to fill the Aegon role. Benioff and Weiss tried valiantly to shoehorn Jon into that role, but Jon rejected his Targaryen heritage from the start and refused all attempts to make a claim to the throne in his name. Especially on rewatch, I'm not even sure it fits Jon's character that he would tell Dany the truth about his heritage; he'd be just as likely to bury the truth of it, just as Ned did for all those years, for similar reasons. Dany's rival was not an outwardly perfect prince, who took what she had strived for years for and isn't actually who he claims to be, but a man who would sooner die, or return to the Night's Watch, than sit on the Iron Throne. This makes Dany's fear and jealously of Jon seem far less rational and far more petty than it would if her rival was Aegon.