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[PUBLIC EPISODE] The Wizard, the Witch and the Wild One: ep024 “Knock Knock" (Patreon)

Published:
2024-04-09 09:30:01
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

Phone rings, door chimes, in comes company. The Italians call it "hospitaliano," that open armed attitude that makes guesting and having guests molto fun. Whether you're hosting, being hosted, or hosting again because you forgot the first time, always remember, it’s dangerous to refuse a guest, and sometimes worse to be one.

Catch the public feed to hear the episode with these links, or anywhere you get your podcasts:

Simplecast

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

YouTube

We recommend listening to Worlds Beyond Number (and the Fireside Feed) on a "podcatching" app like Overcast or Pocket Casts. For more help getting the right audio in the right place, check out our friendly instruction guide.

We are

Brennan Lee Mulligan

Erika Ishii

Aabria Iyengar

Lou Wilson

Produced, designed, and scored by Taylor Moore  at Fortunate Horse with exquisite design and editing help from Jared Olson.

SPECIAL THANKS TO: Tazer Army, Shannon, and Amanda Freberg.

Album art by the great Corey Brickley

Files

Comments

Sil

Zooooooming into this just after work, LOCK AND LOAD, GANG!

Gabriele Mozzicato

Can't wait to listen to the ep!! But as an Italian i feel compelled to say I think "hospitaliano" is a word Olive Garden fully made up lol in standard italian we would use "ospitalità"

Shades Run

IVE BEEN WAITING PATIENTLY

Chey

woah! it's very late for me but this will be a nice treat for when i wake up 🩷

Al

A TWO HOUR EPISODE, WE ARE BLESSED.

Al

BRENNAN DID THE THING ❄

Katlynn

Something about this new episode drop is giving me that kid on Christmas morning giddy feeling.

Sanna G.

I am never this early in noticing a notification. Can’t listen currently because I’m on a bus in Nagoya but looking forward to when in have the time to savor it.

Ori Ganani

All caught up and finally listening to this “live”! So excited! A-HOO-HOO!

annemjw

“You are not alone” instant tears 💙

g0dfath4

im so excited i feel sick

Luis González

Still listening, the bear just talked for the first time. The voice is so similar to Iorek Byrnison's from the audiobooks! I was so hoping for an armored bear vibe.

Emily Hamilton

Not me almost weeping listening to Taylor's immaculate score as Brennan describes the palace while driving in to work. ❄️🏔️🏰Hope the security guard at the gate didn't care.

lil guy

Everything about this episode. Everything. I don't know where to begin. I'm going crazy

Sammi Jacobs

We’re so back 🔥🔥🔥

Annabel Mont

God damn the sound score fucking slaps so hard.

g0dfath4

i was cracking up

g0dfath4

blm with the silent h in dulhan, i see you

lil guy

Folks... we are eating good tonight... this might be one of my favourite episodes so far

Kai Calvert

Y’all keep one-upping yourselves with the excellent storytelling and comforting vibes 💜 Also, I really appreciate the suggestion of using Overcast for listening! I’ve started listening to other podcasts there as opposed to Spotify and I really like all of the customization options for listening!

Jane W

"a good time zone with you as well"

thebillmm

Brennan’s description of the “raw, majestic, uncompromising beauty” of arctic valleys and peaks brought me (an Alaskan) so much joy it made my heartache. Love this new setting!

thebillmm

Also A++ to the palace’s musical fanfare and the ep’s outro

Risa Tran

YOUTUBE MUSIC RELEASE THE HOSTAGE! I guess I will sit here feverishly refreshing my YouTube music podcast until the episode shows up ._.

Leo Kinney

This episode was so fun to listen to while looking at the art

Arien Crossby

Okay, dying to know how hard everyone cracked up at the first word of this episode. 😂

Glue Wilson

can't wait to learn which NPCs have the juiciest dumpers in this new arc

Sam Thomas

Fuck it's so good I need more

lil guy

This comment is so nice :)

Borangehat

Bella, we made "hospitaliano".

HexMix

I am baffled by the constant levels of pure PEAK these people achieve!

Isabella Mazzone

Lo stavo per scrivere mi hai salvato la ripetizione!

HexMix

I don't wanna post spoilers, but I got some Big feelings about a certain character by the end of this ep! If you know, you know!

Michael Munene

Just when you think the sound design can't get any better, Taylor pulls another rabbit out of his hat. The drifting refrain from the violin at the end is downright haunting.

Just a Fox

I would go feral for the slightest mote of affection from Indri, the Witch of the Wind and Stars. I would not make my saving throw to prevent myself from falling in love, in fact, I would fully choose to fail!

Evangeline

If goast becomes a full wizzard she should become the wizzard specter!

Michelle Spurgeon

Holy shit, that was sketchy as fuck! What is Steel up to? The entire business with Kahalia made me so sad. I find it interesting that the witches were so bitchy about Ame not checking in and made this meeting so urgent and then she is the first to arrive. Brennan is cooking!

Raquel Blacken

Excellent as always. I'm for certain going to paint a portrait of the witch of wind and stars

Haepenny Works

Same!! I felt very seen as an Alaskan who loves winter here

Marcus

I messaged my WBN bestie exactly " what the fuck is Steel up to!?! " Haha. Really tho, what is she up to haha

Karen mc donnell

I dont know how to describe the light breath I take, wondering, as I listen sobbing to the soft sadness, and love from Ursulons family or later, when my eyelids snap open as Steel describes the plan, or at any point between the children's adventure and now, if I was to die, that if my light breath was my last. I would feel the great bear, or the fox of the forest and the shrine, carry my soul lightly to the stars over oumora.

Cumbia Zookeeper

That hammered dulcimer in the opening was an A+++ choice

Lorna Burns

Something doesn’t sit right with me, steel explained it way too straightforward, whenever I’ve seen Brennan do straightforward, there’s usually a subversion somewhere in there. Steel, what the hell are you up to.

g0dfath4

im almost sad suvi is so compliant to this crazy spell. i’m hoping its ramifications don’t affect her & ame’s relationship too much.

Magerdamage

That intro gives me chills every time. Was that Aabria on this one?

Ren Challacombe

Ame really spoke for the sapphics with that “yes please”

rio

I don't trust Steel for an inch, I have a running theory that she got Soft and Stone killed... Also, I'm just gonna keep begging for Miyazaki-esque True Form Naraam and Coven of Elders art please I need it so bad

Michael Redd

Steel is going to be one of the BBEGs for the campaign. Calling it now

Luke Hampshire

I haven't even listened to it yet and the Company reference combined with the fact that I thought this was going to be a Much Larger hiatus (for some reason) is making me absurdly excited

The Spirit of Vicious Inspiration

I love how we got awesome escapades (icecapades?) with Ame & the fox (now with a title!!), a touching family reunion with Eursulon, and then Brennan was just like “enough of this sentimental pish posh, let’s dial some deviousness up to 11!!!!!” with Suvi. y’all are out of pocket in absolutely the best ways

Risa Tran

Is anyone else using YouTube Music Podcast and not seeing the episode yet?

Dominic Corbin

As far as "on screen" can be said, Steel has always been upfront with her intentions. Even the nature of the geas here was described to Suvi ahead of time and matched with what Steel indicated. Now Steel did NOT clarify the nature of the magical music box, and much does hang on that. The impression I took is that it would record an impression of the space and conversation nearby, given that Suvi must recover it. It seems unlikely to be a sort of magical bomb, but could Steel betray Suvi's trust in some way? We shall see.

Prof_Bahamut

Iirc Grandma Ren did say that Steel would always prioritize the Citadel's goals

KamasiFitzgerald

Is there anything that can be done about the YouTube uploads? They always seem to come days after the rest of the platforms get the episodes

Risa Tran

i am also suffering in wait.

Raquel Blacken

I listen on spotify. I don't pay for and subscription on there and There isn't any audio ads to disrupt the play back. i used to use stitcher but that's now gone. So maybe try spotify?

Onomatopecan

God the dramatic irony here. I know Steel doesn't have the context for what the Conclave is meeting for, but dear lord if she hasn't involuntarily screwed Ame (and Sky, frankly) over before a single word is spoken. The very presumption that the conclave will underestimate them, and thus they can pull a fast one over on the witches is near guaranteed to simultaneously ratify those very biases and give the Conclave all the ammunition they need to consign Wizardry in general, the Citadel in specific, and Sky immediately thereafter if she gets caught. Devious, buffoonish, and paranoid. Right on all accounts before a single word is spoken.

The Quiet Footpath

Honestly, while the intel would be valuable, it comes at such a damn high risk. Like do you really want all those eyes on you when they haven't meddled with Citadel shit in a noticeable way? You don't want the smoke guys, chill.

worldsbeyondnumber

For the best experience, we recommend listening using a podcatcher app, like Overcast or Pocket Casts. No need to wait painfully and loudly, why, you can listen this very second! Enjoy!

R. Wesley Nipper

AAAaaa Badger badger badger badger TREE HOUSE TREE HOUSE badger badger badger badger TREE HOUSE TREE HOUSE ffOOOXXXX he's the FOOOOXXX

MsAlleyCat

Yes, everyone join me in the Steele suspicious train NOW

Ten

I'm just over here like nooooo, Steel, what have you done?!!

ceeg

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT SUVI

Extragarb

I assume the Citadel wizardcraft behind the music box is fairly crafty, but it feels really bold (and naïve) to think you can disguise this sneaky shit in one of the 5 most powerful witch's personal sanctums with both the sanctum master, a highly inquisitive Ame, and the 3 other strongest witches on the playing field. Sure they've got a solid plan to make sure the plan isn't sitting there in Suvi's mind to be read, but nefariously fooling around with magic items in the sanctum of an elder witch that you don't understand is such a wild move. With what we know about the cottage, I wouldn't be surprised if Indri was passively aware to some degree of any magic happening in her sanctum. Furthermore, Witch's have all this conditional magic based on if criteria have been met (conditions for 5 different witches that the Citadel isn't nearly familiar enough with to know), that could easily compromise this stealth mission. Just look at the tip of the iceberg for Indri's magical domain when Ame meets her. Indri seems to steward the domain of desire itself. Who the hell knows what kind of shenanigans might exist in the domains of the other 3 witches. If this plan ends up triggering any of those conditional criteria for witch retribution, these profoundly wise witches will immediately go on alert AND have powerful ammunition for god knows what. For such an intelligent, organized enterprise, it definitely feels like the Citadel is the one underestimating the elder coven (simply because they know way too little about them). Hopefully they don't end up creating another enemy to go to war against by angering the presiding institution of elder witchcraft in Umora

Genna

First, absolutely blustery and wondrous kick-off of chapter three 🌬️❄️🏔️✨🐻🦡💜 Thoughts on Steel (partially pulled from me on Reddit lol) What I find the most fucked up about the whole interaction with Steel is how this hurts Suvi based on how obedience is love to her. It is CRUSHING ME that, the way I see it, Suvi just wants consistency, honesty, and loyalty from the people she loves. And her best friends are two free spirits (one literal spirit). And her mom seems to be willing to push her far past her comfort zone without a kindred understanding and agreement, all in the name of loyalty and "doing the right thing" (for the Citadel), but she comes at it with logic and reason in a way that soothes and sways Suvi. I don't mean to say that Steel couldn't be a champion for wizards and simultaneously love Suvi. Wizards are rad. But the imperial force of the Citadel scares the shit out of me, and Steel is deep in that. I fear for Suvi getting caught up in between the love of her mom and the crushing demands of the Citadel (executed through the hand of her mom 😥).

Extragarb

Can you believe the gall of the Citadel to try and pull some sneaky shit in the personal sanctum of an elder witch surrounded by the sanctum's owner, her retinue of spirits, 3 other visiting elder witches (at least one of which is definitely hostile towards wizards), and a deviously curious Ame (who might blow the whole thing all on her own if she notices it in the wrong way)? It feels crazy to send a level 3 wizard (and some admittedly decent planning and gear) to do a hostile, secret intel mission in the presence of an institution of global magical influence & significance all compressed into 5 individuals (the 4 strongest of which being witches the Citadel does not magically understand and Ame, the wild card with unique access to the stealth agent). I can't imagine a less desirable enemy than 5 elder witches that specifically become extra magically effective when trifled with. Witches that normally steward whole domains of magic, instead redirecting their focus (and maintenance of their domain) towards your downfall. Especially since Mirara's Waning Moon domain appears to be centered on the very essence of death, disintegration, and the unmaking of things (quote: The death of light, the end of might / The all-consuming dread of night). If I were the Citadel, I'd want to stay on very good terms with anyone responsible for the magic behind "the end of might" (not that they know about any of the other elder witches right now) I can't wait to see how this goes wrong (or if it miraculously works as intended). This feels like a perfect set up for the classic wizard move of trying to pull some ill-advised crafty shit without understanding the consequences.

Extragarb

I feel like Kalaya says it perfectly when she notes that the curiosity of wizards is healthy, wholesome, and good, but the danger comes from when they let that morph into something more. When wizards start getting to ambitious or defensive we end up with nonsense like the Naram incident (ambition) and weird hostile defensiveness like viewing Port Talon's post battle song as a threat because the Citadel doesn't have a way to control public singing. I love Steel to death, but I worry about how bought into the Citadel's culture she is. I want good things for her and the Citadel, but it feels like trying to spy (or worse) with the music box on these elder witches just because they are powerful and operate independent of the Citadel's control is such a bad idea. Instead of letting Suvi just be present and participate as intended in the coven meeting (and then have her report back to Steel about all the many things she'll have learned about this powerful institution), Steel (and by extension, the Citadel) is having her gamble it all just squeeze out some additional intel on top of what they already could have had. The worst part is Suvi is completely caught up with no choice but willing complicity. Not only does she have the weight of the Citadel culture and her relationship/history with Steel compelling her to participate. She also was just burned AGAIN by Ame and Eursulon (this one wasn't really his fault) when they ran out on her in Xiao Court, once again ignoring the burden their wild choices put on her. Maybe if they hadn't burned her so deeply the past few times, I could see an internal case for Suvi to propose a counter suggestion to Steel that puts more trust in Ame and the Witches, but they're the ones that always let Suvi down in moments of crisis while Steel is reliable.

Sean Boyce

Phone rings, door chimes, in comes company! No strings, cold nights, runes hum, company! Late nights, star light, Coven names Teeth bared, so scared, polar bear claws Wind howls, low growls, secret shames, All the magical wards on the waaaaallls.

Gabby s

10/10 spot on!

Brandon Carbaugh

OH GOD, NOW SUVI HAS QUEST FEVER. WIZARD QUEST FEVER HITS DIFFERENT. WIZARD QUEST FEVER IS SCARY Also lol Steel being like "They think wizards are reckless naive buffoons; we'll show them" and then proceeding to do what is maybe objectively the most insanely recklessly naively buffoonish "meddling with powers beyond your ken" wizard shit any wizard has ever wizarded in the history of wizardry.

Abigail W

I’ll ride for Suvi til the muthafkn wheels fall off!!! bb gorl was put in an impossible spot! If I’m not around as Suvi’s defense attorney, it’s because I died not knowing what to do with my big feelings over Eursulon’s family reunion.

Chey

THIS EPISODE ESPECIALLY THE SUVI BIT WAS BONKERS!!! I loved eursylon and his new family bit!! this citadel plot can only end badly and I'm now suspicious of Steel and I'm so sad for what suvi might feel when she discovers this

Brandon Carbaugh

Man if you thought Ame having the power of a curse over Suvi was bad, wait til Suvi runs afoul of a proper fuckin level 20 witchy ass witch who doesn't use kid gloves on a level 3 wizard.

Nassim Tanha

We have heard many times that witches are supposed to be "the cunning ones". To me it seems that Ame was always truthful and the one with most open communication style, so was grandmother Wren. Yet we see Suvi to be the one to go with her best friend as her support system just to have an agenda. Steel is the one who manipulated her own daughter to breach the trust of her friend. Is it the mixing of wizardry on a hostile power hungry empire that has lead to such behavior from wizards or are wizardry is inherently rooted in institutional power and hence inherently corruptible

Silo Hell

I haven’t seen anybody mention the small detail in Eursulon’s section of his family’s “best case scenario” being described as “A hole to hide in with love”. It is heartbreakingly beautiful and apt for what they represent when caught up in a war with the citadel. They will never be able to be loved AND unhidden in this situation, and so this is all they can hope for. As lovely as it is, there is now nothing more for them to gain and still everything for them to lose.

Marcus

This is just me cooking. I think something changed in how Steel now sees Suvi in her role for the citadel after she told her to "Stay", an Suvi did that to the letter of the law. Even Steel was surprised in how Suvi followed it so literally. There was a slight "oh" Giggle from them, like oh you did exactly what I said when I wanted, maybe you are malleable and controllable. Suvi is a citadel sleeper cell now. Steel i think has sleeper cells now. She just couldn't not have with that sorta magic. Steel is the citadel CIA.

Natalia Zorrilla

The “Is she kind?” “She can be.” from Kalaya and Eursulon hit me hard. Because as we’re reminded when Suvi follows up on Ghost and Flicker, she absolutely has the capacity to value people for their own sake. But she was also raised by Steel, who instrumentalizes Suvi’s relationship with her oldest friend as “useful to the Citadel right now.” It’s viscerally painful to watch Suvi shut down the kind, curious parts of herself in favor of the blindly loyal ones. But it’s also interesting because I don’t think Suvi is loyal to the Citadel/Empire so much as she is to Steel. (Like, to the best of my recollection, she has followed orders when/because STEEL GAVE THEM.) So I think this mission could be a big miscalculation by Steel. If it goes south in a way that hurts Ame, and Steel’s omissions are at fault, it’s hard to predict whom Suvi will side with. She doesn’t have the same imperial loyalty that Steel does, and so a personal “betrayal” might go a long way. (Of course, perhaps that’s why Steel sent a watcher along with Suvi to begin with. But it’s hard to imagine that she’d resort to force with Suvi.)

Natalia Zorrilla

Also, the piece about Citadel magic—particularly divination—changing over Kalaya’s time there was a nice tidbit. I’m curious about whether that connects to Stone’s discovery of treason “against magic itself” and her subsequent shift from divination to abjuration. I also thought it was interesting that wizards seemed to cast their glamours differently as they became more regimented— the rise of the reflexive indicative, maybe?

C. A. Whyse

Bad Man Brennan Lee Mulligan strikes again! Will this help or hurt Ame's mission? I'm so pumped to see what happens next!

Michelle Spurgeon

I'm hoping it is only a listening or scrying spell because the northern Witch is so secretive. I really hope Steel isn't putting Suvi's relationship in jeopardy. I did see someone post somewhere that Brennan uses his voice for villains and I hope for Suvi's mental and emotional well-being that Steel isn't going to end up in that column.

Joshua

What happens if Suvi triggers the 5d10 psychic damage with Geas. It could one-shot her straight to unconsciousness. What does that music box do? It has to do more than just collect info on the singer.

Matthew

Eursalon's kin need to move to Toma.

Matthew

People here are not giving Suvi enough credit for her own agency. She chose this. She agreed to the whole plan willingly. I don't know if Steel will ultimately prove false but she is treating Suvi with kindness, respect, and trust. We just don't like the Citadel's plan so we are attributing nefarious intent to everyone involved. This is not manipulation except in the sense that all of us are manipulated by the circumstances of our birth and upbringing.

Marcus

I think Steel will be just like the citadel more nuanced. Doing villianous things for what She thinks is the greater good. I think there will be a " YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE THINGS IVE HAD TO DO TO KEEP US SAFE" monologue at some point. This whole world an story has been a joy to listen to and chat about. Community is lovely as well. The fact there are so many takes an opnions shows how good the story telling has been

Timothie Spearman

Grandma Wren disdained Indri, or at least her office... and Brennan described Indri as having no appeal to those who desire nothing. Do you think that was his subtle say of saying that Grandma Wren wanted for nothing? I love that idea, I also feel that it reinforces the idea of the office of the Witch of the World's Heart as being one of fullness and connection.

Meghan Lewis

Toma is part of the empire though, right? So Kaliah’s point about spirits and spirit-touched being safer in Gaulthemide(sp?!) makes uprooting harder. Having a warm welcome and a loving home waiting with his families all across the mortal world wouldn’t be a terrible arc for a gourmand cub-turned-knight like Eursulon!

Johnystoo

Anybody think that Roderick is the wizard Sly? But that can't be because of the way name cloaks work? Interesting how naming someone actually narrows down who they could be because it can't be a wizard.

Tonks

Is there a heartbeat in the background of the last 20 minutes with Suvi’s bit? I was listening on my apple headphones and I’ll be damned if I didn’t think I was having an anxiety spike haha

Tony Plocido

Aabria is awesome. Suvi is a bad friend.

Conor Steinke

"Eursulon, your teeth are honkin' big."

Kayjii

When are we going to talk about Brennan's pronunciation of "winds its way"?

Fergus Bremner

I'd love to know to what extent Aabria (and everyone else) thinks of Suvi and Sky as separate people? Obviously, there's a lot of bleed through but it seems to me that Suvi is the person who is friends with Ame and Eursulon, and is a daughter to Steel. Suvi is an inexperienced wizard despite her prowess and is eager to impress. On the other hand, the Wizard Sky is an agent of the Citadel, subservient to Steel and views her companions as a liability. Sky views herself as an accomplished wizard despite her inexperience. It suits Suvi/Sky to switch back and forth between the two as the situation calls for it. Personally, I love Suvi but I hate Sky (love to Aabria regardless). That's just my take on it and by no means the only one!

C. A. Whyse

Oh, I'm all for this drama! She's officially a sleeper agent, and I am curious to see the consequences of what happens next.

Riley Crowder

I love that Steel was kind of passive and dismissive about the prophesy from the old wizard, but also gave Suvi an airship and sent her on her way IMMEDIATELY! She may act a bit blaise about it, but auntie is worried. :)

Ashley Teatum

Y'ALL I wasn't expecting another episode, you're so good to us. Downloaded and listening on my flight shortly 🤌✨

Kayjii

No - I honestly feel terrible! And vaguely threatened the more times my name is capitalized menacingly 🤔

abardnamedkate

Okay, here is my theory. I think the key to understanding what the music box is and what Steel is up to lie in the specifics that were given. 1) put it in the center of the witch of the north’s library 2) someone from that place and not of the citadel needs to sing 3) go and collect the box after 4) it doesn’t need to be well hidden 5) do this at any cost I think the music box is a some sort of recording device, but not for recording conversations. You can’t guarantee that the place you put the box will pick up a conversation that you want or need. However, I think the key might be in where it is being placed, the library of a powerful and very long lived witch. The fact that Suvi is told to place it at the center of the library makes me infer two things. First that the library is the target and second that the library must be very large if needs to be placed specifically in the center (thinking about spell radius and ranges). If those things are true why would the library be the target and why would Steel specify the center? Potential answer, the citadel knows that the northern witch has vast stores of knowledge and records that are of great value. I think that not worrying about how well it is hidden in the library could mean a few things: that the box has a glamor to hide it better (not in love with this theory) or that the box doesn’t register as powerfully magical because it is a dormant until activated type of magical artifact or maybe because the fake Suvi quest will keep people busy and spending a good amount of time hiding something is bad for a number of reasons and can also make you look suspicious. Now the someone from that place but not of the citadel singing, I believe, is the trigger. I think the music box is keyed to active when something not connected to Suvi happens so that she can’t be implicated. And when it is activated, I think it will copy every single book and paper in the library and then go dormant again until it is unlocked at the citadel. As an aside I don’t think the music box has any harmful outward/physical effect because Suvi is to retrieve it, which she can’t do if it is some sort of explosive type weapon. I don’t know how much of that will be accurate, but the last thing Steel says is the one that surprised and disarmed me the most. Steel, Suvi’s adoptive mother, said to do this at ANY cost.

Michelle Spurgeon

That would be a hell of a spell to copy everything in the room in a small amount of time. The not hiding it factor is interesting because you would think the ones who live there would know what belongs. The singing has to be important. Maybe it would draw something toward the singer and that could get captured in the box. It could be a listening device spell being planted in the middle of the library. So interesting! Can't wait for the next ep!

Carrie Suzanne @ Petit Valais

Alright Steel defenders. What have you to say for yourselves? Because I’m feeling very I told you so, but y’all are gonna find a way to spin it, aren’t you?

The Wizard Sound

I agree that Steel is being sus… but she’s doing spycraft and it makes way more sense that she just wants information. ALSO - remember that Ame will die without Suvi there - maybe the music box has something to do with that.

oysterphilsophy

The geass ending with 'At any cost' is not mother behavior, I hope steel dwells on that flash of shame and considers what it means for suvi to agree to give up her agency and safety without any questions or pushback. It's pretty bad when a kid thinks their parents love is so conditional.

Nye-Low

💯! Rushed to get Suvi to the capitol and all the sudden 36 hour life clock…… let’s just wait and see if we can get help, don’t wanna rock the boat.

Extragarb

I definitely agree that both witches of the World's Heart have almost exclusively been seen being gracious, honest, and kind (AND we've seen a lot of crafty wizard shenanigans), but I do think witches' cunning goes a bit deeper. They regularly, craftily use kindness and respect to bind spirits large and small into arrangements those spirits often wouldn't have opted into (like keeping Orima out of the material world by continuing to honor an agreement of respect). But more than their business with spirits, this topic reminds me of when Wren reminds Mirara that she "backs down from fights she could win all the time". That suggests to me that Wren carefully collects social & magical knowledge, leverage, and influence to use only when it really matters. Like a monopoly player that slowly builds up a wealth of resources before shifting to offense, rather than min maxing to spend her money to build as early as possible to maximize returns in the least amount of time. It very much feels like Grandmother Wren moves through the world with open kindness backed by an ocean of relationships, influence, knowledge, and leverage, without going crazy to make a big deal about that ocean. She doesn't often need to be hostilely cunning, but when the occasion arises, she's so well equipped (socially & magically) that she becomes incredibly difficult to thwart, if you even see it coming. For example, she was able to use her relationships with her friends at the Citadel (like Steel) and her knowledge of Pomeroy's true name to smuggle multiple spirit portraits out of the Cassov Collection so cleanly that the Citadel still doesn't know it happened. Who knows why she needed those, but she straight up stole them from the heart of the Citadel and fully concealed it from everyone involved without disrupting any of her previous relationship statuses. So I do think it's important to remember Witches can be cunning as hell, but I think they're just a little better at doing it than Wizards. Most wizards go for the first piece of bait you put down for them, and it makes them predictable in a way that witches aren't. Sure the wizards get really crafty with it, like Steel's double layered memory music box plan, but fundamentally the Citadel is still doing to most predictable wizard move in the book. This is their first chance to learn about something new and important, and they are trying to squeeze as much juice out of it as possible at the first available opportunity, like they always do. Ironically, not only does this method probably have worse info yield than building a genuine relationship of mutual trust with the elder coven, it also is completely blind to the possibility that this meeting might be centered around deciding if the institution of wizardry is going so far that Witches and the spirit world need to intervene (changing the stakes of failing the intel mission from a bad first impression into the wizards actively confirming that they're always up to some untrustworthy shit).

Nassim Tanha

You are making a lot of good point. I see that their resourcefulness and their power which are not that visible on the first glance, intentional or unintentional, makes them "cunning". I was just wondering, in whose narrative are classes described, if that makes sense. If in this world, the empire and its institutional power is the one naming, classifying and describing everything else and since they do not take magic beyond their control seriously, unless it poses a thread or opportunity for control, the spirits become the "wild" ones and the witches become the "cunning" ones. I guess maybe my question about the coupling of wizardry and a repressive power structure doesn't need the witches involved with it. Whether wizardry is essentially intertwined with institutional power and the need to control.

Emily C

Oh Eurselon, his sister!!! I love that his nieces' argument has been going for so long because it reminds me of real life long term arguments/conversations I've had with my own sister. Suvi: At any cost????? Oh boy. And the violin at the end absolutely grabbed me and didn't let go.

RNietzsche

Brenan keeps insisting that Callie's family looks like Suvi is a magical effect. Methinks the DM doth protest too much...

DomPie

How many times has Steel cast Geas before, on whom, and were the targets as willing as Suvi…?

Matthew

That's a valid point. I think it would be more accurate for me to say we hate the potentially disastrous effects the plan could have on Suvi and Ame's friendship.

RNietzsche

Oh yeah this is absolutely absurd "parent" behavior. I guess now we know who Steel chooses when the choice is Duty or Suvi. I wonder if she would send her bio kids on such a suicide mission. Even the "obvious" deception could reasonably get Suvi killed as a spy.

RNietzsche

Suvi is a soldier. Calling it a 'choice' is a bit rich.

Matthew

We learned back in the 40s that "just following orders" is not a valid excuse, but that's a much bigger discussion and maybe something Suvi is going to have to learn the hard way.

Andrey Patino

I just can’t see a consistent need to control someone as respect and kindness! Steels “respect and kindness” always comes with a caveat, and that’s the very opposite of both those things

heyitsphoenix

I feel compelled (lol) to write this and try to articulate what I've been feeling for a long time listening to this podcast, and I still doubt these words will be enough. I feel like I am among the luckiest people alive to live at this point in time and listen to this story. As a whole it, and especially this episode, feels like the height of human storytelling to me, and brings out the entire spectrum of human emotion in me in the most beautifully indescribable ways. It makes me think of the first storytellers to ever exist and what they and their listeners must have felt at the beginning of humankind, bringing up joy and awe and terror and laughter and rage and love in the first ever simultaneous symphony of swelling hearts in the wake of a shared story, and I feel luckier than them as I listen to this. I think of those who first heard the creation of myths explaining the stories of the stars and all the love and loss they brought alongside the figures they saw in the sky, and I feel luckier than them. It's often been said that there are many needs humans have that must be fulfilled if we are to live our fullest lives, and among them are the need for beauty, and the need for awe, a sense of wonder. Listening to this fills those needs to the very brim for me, every time I hear the five of you create a world so heart-wrenchingly beautiful and awe-inspiring that it brings me to tears. What you do here is truly magic. It's a magic not unlike the kind we believe in in childhood, but different in that it emphasizes humanity over fantasy, even while being fantastical. All of this is just to say, perhaps too sincerely: thank you for doing this, I am in awe of all your abilities to weave such magic, and I can only hope to make such magic myself someday. I look forward with my whole heart to the long road ahead of this magical story.

tayycro

Listen I'm a Suvirin Kedberiket defender till I die, and I understand her feeling like she can't trust her friends so she needs to trust someone. But Suvi you don't wanna ask a single follow up question??? You're allowed to ask questions of people you trust! That is why you trust them!!!! Also Steel I'm so glad you feel shame because if you get your daughter killed by witches bc of a Gaes we're gonna be throwing hands in a Denny's parking lot you hear me????? She is a BABY and she TRUSTS YOU and you're USING HER and for WHAT???

Meonlights

I wanted to put everything I felt in this excellent episode in one comment, because all three parts of this story are excellent and beautiful and incredible. Suvi's story continues to be nailbiting and scary, Ame and her experiences with the witches is magical and terrifying. But I lost my 99 year old grandmother this week. She was an incredible human being, there is literally nobody who didn't like her, her death broke hearts everywhere. And listening to the experience of the children and grandchildren of Kalaya, as she slowly ages and fades both broke and touched me. Thank you for this, I felt seen and understood and I know how you might grieve someone who is still around but also feel like they would always be there. It's surreal and strange. But I cherish it still. IDEK if this makes sense.

Patrick Ley

Steel’s kindness and “respect” of both Eursulon and to Ame has always, I’d say been premised on them being understood as not powerful enough to pose a genuine threat. It’s largesse. The spycraft stuff absolutely is IMO a moral event horizon moment, but it’s also in a twisted way more like respect than anything else Steel has done. “You are dangerous enough that it is worth trying to deceive you to learn more.” The big problem for me, is that, if Ame eventually learns about this. (To a lesser extent even if Suvi is in fact told later by Steel) I don’t see how that doesn’t put us on a very short path to Suvi being forced to choose between Ame and the Citadel. (Suvi would obviously pick the Citadel over Ame).

Randon Beasley

The geas on suvi just makes me think about what Aabria said about how for Suvi love is obedience. With that in mind what’s a more show of love than willingly going through with that spell. The flash of shame though imo is recognition of that and knowing that a line might have been crossed, is Suvi doing it for the love of the citadel or the love of steel

Ryan L.

The beautiful scenes painted with just words that also tug at our hearts never cease to amaze me, many thanks from the heart to all who craft this together! I am so happy for the small part we get play helping support this continuing for many years to come.

Kyle David Perry

Is Steel so brilliant that she gathered the the music box, the potion and McGuffin contract AND coordinated with the Wizard Straw all before giving Suvi the ship?? Or did she have this nesting doll of a plan on the shelf for just this moment?

SmileyGuy

I can’t wait for Eurselon to find out about Kalaya’s experience with returning (or attempting to return?!) to the fae realm. She must have rolled like a champ for her taboo saves. Freely walking about in the Citadel, most definitely in the sun, and now lying in a bed more often than not? Do a perception check using your nose to see if she lost her wild scent!

Stone Pengelly

My god, you all blow me away with this, it’s incredible. The descriptions not just from Brennan but from everyone is perfect. I could could so clearly picture this episode and each scene in my head. Taylor, Jared *mwuah* chefs kiss for all the sounds, music and editing. You truly bring this show to life. The Fox of the Forest and Shrine needs a Jacket!

Witpending

I am SO PUMPED to see where this goes. Absolutely adore the Geas plan. Roses all around for everyone.

Amanda Baldwin

Um I noticed something and would like to roll an investigation check

Bryan

WBN: Opens arc 3 with 2 hours of aural perfection My jaw: still on the ground even though I’ve been sat buffering in silence for the last 15 minutes like Netflix trying to load the next frame of an Adam Sandler movie

Amanda Baldwin

When Steel was going over the plan, did the audio jump twice in 6 seconds? Like perhaps Taylor cast modify memory or gift og gab on us???

Kiera Faye

TAYLOR ELIZABETH MOORE. The tension in that final note?! Ugh.

Kiera Faye

Is she wayshadowed? Or has she just remained in the mortal realm all these years out of love for her family?

Alec

We're so BACK, baby.

Emily C

Different comment since I remembered I had a question, to see if someone could help me understand: what is a telemet? My Google -Fu is not super helpful. Is it like a compass? A spell booster? A magic telephone? I went back and listened several times to try and get it from context clues but it's not coming through.

SmileyGuy

Good question that I don’t know the answer to. It took what I thought was a small amount of interaction with Umora for Eurselon to be wayshadowed. I imagine she ate something at some point. Unless specifically the fact that he hid his breath was the catalyst?

SmileyGuy

I believe it is the ball (dunno if always a ball) that allows long distance spell casting. Steel cast a spell on Sky through it.

Beldaran

It feels like a profound betrayal for Steel to ask this of Suvi when she is feeling so vulnerable and unmoored. I was sick to my stomach listening, and I like Steel so much. The emotional turmoil! All I can think about is Brennan threateningly saying "just keep falling in love with things" in that recent interview. Incredible storytelling on everyone's part, so excited and fearful to hear what happens next!

Thimo The Fool

Beautifully Said, thank you for putting this feeling I am having right after listening to the episode into words.

Tralan

This, yes. It allowed Steel to cast her interrogation spell.

rocket-flash

My thought was that a music box was some sort of pseudoscience echolocation that could determine the layout of the castle based on how it picked up singing. That's just a running theory, but I feel like it must give some sort of layout information if they want it placed in her inner sanctum.

Lorna Burns

Which would make sense— and that would give the wizards an upper hand in case they have to deal with a witch again. My concern is whether or not the geas spell she was speaking, was the actual command that she was giving. My concern is that there is a third layer to this that we’re not thinking of. We still haven’t seen the other side of this war, the empire is fighting or at least the rhetoric they are spreading. We don’t have all of the pieces to the puzzle, yet, just the ones that the protagonist have seen, and we have already seen how the empire tends to manipulate wizards to their needs, and how effectively it works , especially for suvie/sky . I do truly love steel as a character, but there’s some with her that offsets me. I can’t put my thumb on it, but I know we at least aren’t seeing all the cards that she has in her hand.

Anonymous Developer

"Is she kind?" - "..She can be" DAMN shots fired from Gaothmai and it AINT THE WARLOCKS

Emily C

Thank you!!!! Of course there's a wiki

Michelle Spurgeon

It really gives credence to the idea that Sky and Suvi are DIFFERENT.

lilgreenghoulie e

It's really stuck with me how Steel said any person smart enough can talk themselves into doing something that may actually be morally wrong (paraphrasing). Steel is very likely speaking from experience for tricking Suvi with the telemet plan and maybe in the past with Suvi's parents

Mems

Everyone was amazing in the episode but Taylor’s music for the Ice castle appearing is breathtaking

Kamuraki

Okay, joined the patreon about 2 weeks ago and I'm caught up. Couple things I've got to get out of my system. First, I cannot picture Steel without picturing Storm from the X-Men. Second, I desperately hope we hear how she and Saunder ended up together. Because she is the personification of muscle tension, and he is the hippie dad half my parents friends from the 70's turned into.

Carrie Mook Bridgman

Hmm. Not much of a name*cloak*--unless it was the sort of thing where everyone would assume they wouldn't be so obvious, and thus never suspect. I guess if the name "Ghost" gets eaten anyway, it wouldn't matter, so why not have fun?

Adarsh Nednur

I simultaneously heard Suvi in my head saying, "ExCUSE me???" And Aabria saying, "Correct answer."

Adarsh Nednur

(Novel incoming, sorry) I'm honestly kind of surprised that people are having this reaction to Steel, because I genuinely don't think she did anything wrong here? In my opinion, she did not compel Suvi in any meaningful way. She told Suvi exactly what the plan was, told her that she wouldn't remember the plan but would feel compelled to enact it anyway, told her that the conversation was being recorded so that she could recover her memories after returning to the Citadel, and told her that her putting her hand on the Telemet and then drinking the potion are the prerequisite steps for that spell to be cast and for the plan to be underway. Suvi is only "compelled" in the sense that the version of her that has forgotten this conversation will make decisions she might not make of her own accord, but Suvi willingly entered into this agreement. She has a temperamental revulsion to not being in control so her instincts are to hate losing that memory, but she isn't just doing this out of obedience to Steel, she's doing it because she also thinks this is probably the best course of action because it is what gets her closer to her twin goals of helping her friends and helping the Citadel, and it allows her to avoid exposing any of them to danger while doing so. I think one way that I view this whole interaction differently from people criticizing Steel is that the calculus here is not, "Steel serves the Citadel, and Suvi serves Steel." Suvi trusts and believes in the Citadel as much as anyone—especially now when her friends have a little bit blown up her life and run out on her, while Steel really came through on the trust and vulnerability Suvi put in her by dedicating the full resources of the Citadel to get Suvi to where she needed to go. Steel is higher in hierarchy than Suvi and is her mom, but in this conversation, they are essentially partners-in-crime. To me this whole conversation did not even a little bit read as Steel commanding or compelling Suvi; it came across as two co-conspirators deciding how they could use their intelligence, cunning, and guile to accomplish their goals in an environment in which having ulterior motives can get you killed. The fact that Suvi won't remember having made this agreement for a while is kind of irrelevant. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that if Steel had the access and time to be entering into the meeting of the Elder Witches herself, she would gladly have agreed to the same course of action that she recommended to Suvi? She's not doing this to exert control over Suvi, which should be made patently clear by the lengths to which she went to be transparent about this beforehand, even including recording the conversation so she can fill Suvi back in even though by that point the existence of the real plan will be moot. Now, I will concede that maybe Suvi feels some sense of obligation to go along with the plan because Steel is both her mom and her commanding officer, and maybe she wouldn't feel the same obligation if those weren't both true, but that's really not a result of anything Steel did here, and in fact short of explicitly saying "You can refuse to do this if you want" (which I feel is implied between two people as brilliant as these two are by the fact that she gave Suvi every single piece of information beforehand and implied that following the steps Steel laid out would be tacit agreement) she did everything she could to counteract that feeling. So I hate to be this brusque about it but I think Suvi potentially feeling obligated to comply is kind of a Suvi problem—which I also think is what Suvi would say about it. Tbh I actually thought the whole scene was incredibly loving on both of their parts. For Steel to have a plan that she might *need* to happen and still tell Suvi every single step of it including the things about it that might scare Suvi off of it shows an incredible level of trust and honesty and vulnerability and ceding of control on her part to give Suvi the knowledge and power to say no in that moment. And Suvi reminding herself that Steel has proven herself time and again to be worthy of her trust and therefore fighting back her rebellious instinct and loosening her grip and relinquishing control is an incredible act of love on her part as well. Frankly, I love my mom and have a great relationship with her, and I could still only *dream* of her being this transparent and accepting lmao I think reasonable people could disagree on this, but I hope you don't feel that the only way someone could still love Steel is that they are being fascism apologists or something.

Adarsh Nednur

I think they're also cunning relative to wizards in this world in that their "ulterior motives" are theirs and theirs alone to know. They serve two masters (spirits and humans), which is kind of like saying they serve no masters. I think we see wizards as more the cunning ones because they're the "smart ones" who might use those smarts to manipulate a situation to their advantage. But kind of like Steel is saying here, that's almost par for the course with wizards, and it's fairly obvious what the goals they're serving are when they're being sneaky. But out of wizards, witches, and wild ones, witches are the most likely to really surprise you with the goals they've been working towards the whole time, the tools they've been using to do so, the considerations they find most important, etc. Wizards are the most likely to have something up their sleeve, but witches are the most likely to have an invisible sleeve you didn't even know. I think Ame telling Steel she will wait for two hours while Steel talks to the diviners at Xiao Court, and then instantly turning to Suvi and saying it's time to go is a good example, or of course Ame pressing Pomeroy into service with the threat of giving OTHERS his true name, or Ame telling Naram to sacrifice the wizards rather than himself—I think they're all situations where not only do you not know what the witch's plan is, you don't even know which side she'll be on. In that way, I think witches are less manipulative than wizards, but they're also less controllable. Also fwiw I think witches are more cunning in the "See the fae's tricks coming a mile away" sense. Like, of the party, Ame is definitely most like to respond to, "May I have your name?" with, "No, but you may call me Ame" lol the kind of response that would make someone go, "Hehe clever girl" or whatever

Andrew Weigel

I don't think you get to complain about someone thinking you are "devious" and "paranoid" and then use your next breath to say "so here's how we're going to spy on them." Bloody wizards ...

Nefeli

Eursulon's family moments are making sob into my potatoes. I cried when the great bear was introduced and I'm crying for his sister now. It fucks me up man idk💀

Nefeli

As someone who also isn't always kind but is an active problem solver Suvi is everything to me

Robert Lark

Love the "I'm just following orders" Suvi, combined with the overly self-righteous justifications Aabria has for Suvi's actions. It all makes for such a juicy story, but any time Aabria is defending her actions it just screams "she doth protest too much"! Can't wait for these chickens to come to roost!

Sil

Fancasting Gwendoline Christie with the most exquisite make-up artistry as Indri.

Sasha

I would love for everything to go off with no drama,but a part of me so deeply wants Suvi's actions to result in something she deeply regrets so that she learns the consequences of blind faith

s_m_i

“One of them is dead to me and the other passed away” 💀

Adri Void

I love how they joked in a prev fireside about future ‘musical episodes’ and now its required that Suvi make someone sing lmfao.

Lana Kole

Wizards are sketchy, man. Dang.

Lana Kole

I feel so bad for Suvi!! Wow!!

Jonesey

There's a point to it, A ship of the Citadel, Lest you fall in love.

The Witch of the Roaring River

Just re-listening: I want to see the romance between kalaya (sp?) and her second husband in an interlude 🥹🥹🥹