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Video That Will Never See the Light of Day (Patreon)

Published:
2023-05-12 08:16:54
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

It's just too weird and theoretical and probably inaccurate. I've been toying with these ideas for like 6 months.

Files

Previews only

Why Do We Argue About Storytelling?

Comments

ReAmRez

If you write for you and just like releasing those writings on the off chance you can entertain people and make a buck, that's' cool. I would just like to know how the entire writing processes helps you with either understanding the complexities and/or figure out the truth of the ideas you struggle with. I had a friend who claimed the same about his art (video games) but never explained how.

Local187
>>108379462

I think the act of taking perspectives and turning them into characters helps me empathize with those perspectives and simulate the types of lives that would lead to people having them. Which is why internal logic is so important to me too. I’m essentially running a simulation

Aaron Rockensock

I don’t really care if a story includes a political/social message as long as it’s written well. Get Out is a good example of that and it’s one of my favorite thrillers.

Local187
>>108406605

Yeah would totally agree - I’m not anti message, I’m anti gaslighting other people about the meaning of their work. Because I definitely think the intent of the author matters

Elijah K. Ashburn

As someone who's used to consuming stories about bad people, I've noticed there seems to be a line between actions that are morally wrong but treated as character traits that derive from the character or their situation and actions that are morally wrong and treated as flaws that need to be overcome. I think I naturally gravitate towards stories with flawed characters because they are not held within the constraints of a moral high ground, they get to play around and are able to do things those aforementioned characters can't.

Cypress

The most important thing that's explainable is avoiding contemptuous representations of characters that don't give them actual evil behaviours/actions to be contempted for, and instead depend upon stereotypes and superficial traits. This is usually remarkably unsubtle--a result of writers being both contemptuous and incompetent. Most people don't do this if they're even remotely conscious about it. If your work gains popularity, dangerous ideologies will appropriate imagery even if it's explicitly against their movements. You can't outplay dumb and angry, so don't try. Also the best way to figure out if something is a problem is that people will tell you. You can't account for things outside of your perspective, so throw your art/writing out there. IMO, it's just 'Don't Be an Asshole', but for writing stories. Nothing to overthink, just something to be aware of.

Cypress
>>108443192

Actually in addendum I think the most important thing is: if you're even thinking about this you're ahead of the curve and probably fine. The people where it's a problem are off the WALLS crazy (eg graham linehan)

ReAmRez
>>108379462

Interesting, you've kind of answered your question posed at 7:20 of the video, except with a more altruistic angle. You do it to help others empathize with those perspectives and get an approximation of lives that would lead to people having them, something that just making socio-political arguments tends to not do too well.

Local187
>>108443192

Interesting interesting. I guess I just don’t think the truth and the common good are mutually exclusive. Usually they coincide. But, for instance, showing religion in a pathological light might piss a lot of people off and cause social unrest and violence, especially in some countries. Hypothetically - say it leads go riots and people getting killed. A net social negative, with no upside. Does that mean the artist has a responsibility not to make that film? Or let’s say we discover that violent media DOES cause violence in children. Are we now obligated to stop telling stories that depict violence in an entertaining way, purely because of the meta consequences? What is the exact responsibility of artists in a society - where do you draw the line?

Elijah K. Ashburn
>>108443192

I'd say unless the media is made with the exclusive intention of suggesting the audience to do something or think a certain way, it holds a fair share of accountability for inciting the actions of people who consume it. Otherwise, I think while people can be influenced by the media they consume, it is ultimately the consumer who chooses to act the way they do. Another thing to consider is that people will often have different interpretations of the media they watch. Take the religion example you gave, where a piece of media that portrays a religious group in a negative light. Some people will see this as the creator saying this religion is bad, while others might see it as a commentary on the negative impacts of religious nationalism. Ultimately I think I depends on the execution on the writer's part and the purpose for putting it there.

Henri

I’ll be honest, after reading the title I wasn’t expecting something so…lucid? The same ideas have been bouncing around my head for years as I consume media and feel what I feel, then think about what the creator is trying to make me feel, then think about how *that* makes me feel and on and on. I’m sure plenty of people experience the same thing but maybe don’t have the words to pin it down. I think this video could not only see the light of day if you wanted it to but would probably strike a pretty significant chord. Maybe it feels a bit more personal or subjective to you somehow? Nothing wrong with keeping it Patreon exclusive but I don’t think it’s nearly as weird/theoretical/inaccurate as it may feel.

king tut

honestly a little sad this won't ever be posted on account of how much FEE's take made me want to rip out my hair, because i think i'd be able to sleep at night better knowing this deconstruction of it existed somewhere publicly lol as a fellow "everything i write has a question for a theme" person i really can't get over just how hindering FEE's perspective on storytelling is. it forces every story to be so black and white in its judgement of morality in order to reward "good" and punish "bad". imo the duty of a story is just to explore the human condition, not to be boxed into the end result of having to "teach a good lesson". not only is that often less interesting as a framework but i also think that approach is fundamentally less reflective of reality. like you said, by creating stories that operate exclusively under a fully realized moral code as defined by the creator, that story can only ever appeal to people who agree with that moral code. it severely hinders the potential to explore the validity of different perspectives in a world where multiple perspectives on everything will always exist. but i think my biggest gripe of all with evaluating all stories through a political lens is just because frankly its exhausting. it would be grueling to operate under as a storyteller. one of my favorite things about stories and art in general is that it has the capacity to transcend politics or morality and still be immensely valuable in one way or another without touching any of that. the fact that art and activism are two different things fundamentally means that art has a value that should be evaluated on separate from how it relates to politics. i suppose i'm just reiterating your own points here but i can't help but rant about how much i hate that perspective lmao (also i really felt it when you said "Arcane is so good that it makes me depressed that i wasn't the one who wrote it". i experience that exact thing so consistently with media that it made me laugh out loud to hear you say it)

Cypress
>>108512072

Yeah, the point about it being exhausting is something that is extremely potent to me. It's really easy to get ABSORBED into a black hole of ✨discourse✨ and spend hours upon hours thinking and questioning and processing questions of morality and all that. Then at the end of it all, you've written nothing, your work hasn't really improved or gotten anywhere, and you're sitting with an empty plate. (Also yeah w/ relating to the Arcane take. For me it's Noah Hawley's Legion that makes me feel that way.)

Karisa

I really loved this video. I was thinking the other day about how conversations can go one of two ways. Either a person talks -at- you or a person talks -to- you. And you feel the difference. A person who talks at you is doing it for themselves. They require minimal input on your end with little care of your emotions/thoughts. It's all about them. Whereas a person who talks to you, knows you enough to anticipate your emotions/thoughts. Or, at the very least they demonstrate the desire to know you. I think stories might be similar. The extent to which we feel connected to the story is based on how well we feel it understands us. Is it talking at us? Or talking to us? Writing stories with the goal of making a moral argument risks talking at its audience. It's not trying to understand its audience at all, it's pushing a moral narrative. I suspect the people who enjoy these stories are connecting with the reasons why these morals are held, not necessarily the morals themselves. Because the reason is intellectual rather than emotional or experiential. Hearing your purpose behind writing is encouraging because it's largely my own. I write to explore subjects I don't have a clear stance on and mix it with things I do (aka killing is bad) which ends up leaving so much in question. Opportunities for the reader to go one way or another. Which makes sharing it difficult because the side-eye is strong. Like they're trying to understand the political point but end up failing because it's not that simple. It's grey for a reason. It's meant to let the reader decide for themselves what they want to believe. Just like life. Sorry this turned into such a rant. I loved this video. Very thoughtful and encouraging. I'll be re-watching several times.

Local187
>>136873549

Thank you, it feels a bit obscure to make public, but maybe a more polished version could go live eventually