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As our summer project, we at In Bed with the Right decided to finally knock out our "white whale"-episodes, i.e. eps that we've been mulling (and researching) for ages (in some cases since the podcast first started). Schlafly! Tár! Buckley! Aquinas! Psychiatry!

As our first white whale, we're harpooning none other than Andrew Sullivan -- editor, blogger, Iraq War hawk, and noted gender conservative! And since we recorded three hours of material already, you're getting the episode in two parts. Our apologies, we (especially Moira) kind of don't like doing two-parters. But we felt Sullivan -- who is, as Moira put it, sort of "gender conservatism's Forrest Gump" -- was worth spending time with. He intersects with so many strands and trends, so many institutions and pathologies of the last forty years. Specifically, we're going through his complicated work by focusing on specific texts, by situating them in their moment and explaining their legacy. This first episode covers Sullivan's early years, 1980 - 1996: Oxford, Harvard, The New Republic, The Bell Curve, and Virtually Normal.

Comments

Alice Kron

Tár mentioned!! 🎉

Saschi

omg for psychiatry i hope you will read the book Psyche on the Skin by Sarah Cheney. its a history of self injury and just has soo many IBWTR relevant topics, including how things become gendered. id love to hear y'all discuss this! because u cant rly discuss psychiatry being weaponized against women in our era w/o discussing BPD (Amber Heard!) and feminized self injury is a big part of that. why is a woman cutting herself seen as more manipulative than a man punching a wall? hopefully u will tell us in ur episode! also: Moira, your coverage of Adrianna Smith in the Guardian was literally the only mainstream source I saw that specified she was dead, and had died at only 8 weeks pregnant. Thank you.

Heidi Vee

New Patreon subscriber, love this episode! Very good balance between mocking the foolishness and having real empathy for the fools, as usual.

Michael Pezzulo

Kind of wondering now why IBWTR has "white whale" topics, not "White Male" ones.

James Talley

Whales need multiple episodes! Fear not, Moira, true heads will follow where y'all lead. I remember citing Sullivan in arguing for gay marriage back in the day, thinking he might appeal to cons, but then came Iraq, and I had little use for him. This retrospective frees me from having to read his entire corpus myself and for that, y'all can have my organs, which is very fair. Even sans anesthesia.

Kai Dorothy

I am indeed a Certified True Freak - dive deep and feed my braaaaiiiiiinnnn

info@judithflanders.co.uk

Thank you, very interesting episode. Yes, Magdalen College, Oxford is pronounced 'maudlin'. It's one of those passive-aggressive 'let's make sure the foreigners can always be identified' deals. (And don't get me started on Beauchamp, Belvoir, Featherstonehaugh, Cholmondley or Wriothesley. OK, since you asked so nicely:: Beecham, Beaver, Fanshaw, Chumley and Rithzly.)

Carsten Brombach

Very interesting episode, looking forward to the next part! Side effect: the mention of „a conservative Forrest Gump“ conjured up the Cancer Man‘s monologue from X-Files in my brain, which I need to exorcise by sharing :-) Life...is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctoral gift that no one ever asks for. Unreturnable because all you get back is another box of chocolates. So, you're stuck with mostly undefinable whipped mint crap, mindlessly wolfed down when there's nothing else to eat while you're watching the game. Sure, once in a while you get a peanut butter cup or an English toffee but it's gone too fast and the taste is fleeting. In the end, you're left with nothing but broken bits filled with hardened jelly and teeth shattering nuts, which if you are desperate enough to eat leaves nothing but an empty box of useless brown paper wrappers.

Laura

Starting to listen to this during lunch and then this afternoon getting a notification that A Bit Fruity did an episode about a recent Andrew Sullivan article...truly eating good today

Charley

Just finished this & now heading straight onto Matt Bernstein dealing with Sullivan’s latest trans nonsense for NYT 😂

A Felt

Me too haha

A Shade In Shades

Broey Deschanel has a great video essay "The Strange Conservatism of Forrest Gump" which argues the changes made from book to film made it into an anti-left respectability piece. So I think identifing the character with Andrew Sullivan is weirdly apt. Also to my British ears when you say "Thatcher" and "Gay Rights" my mind goes to Section 28. I don't know how well Americans know about this, but it banned schools from "promoting homosexuality." Or really from acknowledging and supporting gay people at all. It was passed in 1988, so after Sullivan had departed our sunny shores, but I think it gives you a clue as to what being a gay conservative at Oxford might have been like and his subsequent politics.

In Bed With the Right

Shit, how is "Beauchamp" pronounced in the UK? Have I been saying that wrong for years?

In Bed With the Right

We initially were talking to Michael Hobbes about recording our episode together -- it would have been a "We Are the World" of podcasters!

Sarah

Horseshoe horseshoe horseshoe!!! (I snort-laughed out loud when y’all started chanting that)

Ren

Oh thank God. I have been waiting for this for so long.

RFB

OK. After way too many years of wondering, you've persuaded me to go and look it up and, handily, they have a Fellow in English hanging around to write articles for their website. To summarise, the college is old and, while named for Mary Magdalen, at the time that it was founded the English spelled that Mary Maudlyn and pronounced it to match. Then somebody decided the spelling should be sorted out to match its Greek origins, English pronunciation followed and, lo and behold, Oxford college looks like it's the one making life hard when it's just doing what it's always done. https://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/news/linguistic-life-of-an-oxford-student/

Katie

I like a two-parter, it’s something to look forward to!

Thomas Freeman

Please don’t be afraid of two part episodes, especially for Patreon episodes. We are freaks, and I love the deep dives (the more esoteric the better)

Nina V~

this feels pedantic, but would y'all mind putting a bibliography of the works you reference throughout the episode in the notes? i am the sort of freak who wants to put this stuff on my tbr pile. xD

Maud McInerney

Don’t worry, Adrian. It’s Magdalen pronounced Maudlin as I have good reason to know because my mother christened me Magdalen and called me Maud assuming it was an actual nickname which it isn’t. Maud is a separate name going back via Anglo Norman French to Mechthild. Confusion has ensued ever since. But being named after the patron saint of sex-workers is cool.

jacq

wow, the weight & gravity of these conversations on you both and also those of us as queer listeners around the grief of AIDS/me too/ etc is so palpable. thank you for doing this podcast, thank you for delving into these topics with grace and discernment as needed

Kim

I appreciate that you both are very smart people who teach at a prestigious college, but some of us are uncultured public school grads, and have never heard of Michelle whatever their last name is, so one day you should do a podcast on them … aggrieved as you are to discuss them.

Andu Z

absolutely behind the two/multi-part series. in fact I let out a little "whoop" when I saw 1/2. more!

Nicky

"He assumes that ostentatious cooperation with conservative values will lead to conservative acceptance and that is not in fact the case, you can not make an ask small enough for these people not to attack you, you have to either accept you have enemies or you capitulate."

Ashley Frament

I finally cancelled my NYTimes subscription when I saw that Op Ed and said so in my comments to them. Final straw on their horrible trans coverage!! I’ll have to check that episode out now.

Heidi Vee

It’s the philosopher Michel Foucault, if you feel like looking him up. An episode on him would be super interesting but brutal for them to make coherent. 😂

pixlaw

After the shout-out to Camille Paglia in one of the excerpts you read during this episode, I’m once again begging you to do an episode on her. So far as I’m concerned, she’s the O.G. feminist reactionary moderate. "Yes, women should have the right to be big bold thinkers, but not *that* way. Also, the Rolling Stones are hawt."

pixlaw

If you’re looking for a primer on him, you could do worse than Foucault For Beginners by Lydia Alix Fillingham, which is kind of a graphic novel about his life and work, and pretty comprehensible. I gave copies to both of my kids when they went off to college, so they’d at least have some sense of what his thought was like before they started trying to read theory.

OhLordyAmina

I love the two-part episodes so keep em coming and I can't wait until the episode on Tàr. I feel like everyone has kind of forgotten about that film but I still think about it on and off.

Moira Donegan

Thank you for this reminder! We keep talking about doing this and then forgetting.

James Hultgren

Michael Hobbes has previously echoed Moira’s sentiment about double episodes in the past and, as a listener, every time I see “Part 1” on an episode I get SO EXCITED cause I just want my parasocial intellectual buds in my ears as much as possible, and love when you get a chance to get in the weeds on a topic so KEEP ‘EM COMING.

Max Moran

This episode is so, so good.