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Episode 135 [PATREON EXCLUSIVE] -- 2 TERF 2 Island (Patreon)

Published:
2026-05-12 16:15:15
Imported:
2026-09

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Content

For the second part of our deep dive into transphobia in the UK, Moira and Adrian explore what happened when TERFism left mumsnet and anti-trans blogs, and began ruling the roost on the opinion sections of major newspapers. We trace how a double moral panic -- one around youth transition, and one about how you couldn't say transphobic things anymore without getting canceled -- began devouring UK print media, and how it both fed on and disavowed its online origins.

Comments

Athina

You're both hot because smart and compassionate is always hot!

Beth McWilliams

Wait Moira did you say “yelling at those with a high and tight” in a bathroom? I have to rewind.

Jude Wineke

As a trans young adult who was a little 15 year old trans boy with a Mom like this less than a decade ago -- listening to this series while deep breathing lol 😅 Nonetheless, episodes are respectful and interesting as always!

Tiaragram

Hey nerds! I love your episodes. Great research and excellent commentary.

Moira Donegan

Sending you solidarity, Jude! Thank you for listening.

Nomi Storm

Omg that "Maxine" case is so ridiculous! Even if she were real, when an 11 year old gets put on puberty blockers it's because of precocious puberty, regardless of whether that kid is cis or trans. The transphobes just love to use these cases because to someone uninformed it can read like "they are transitioning little children" when in fact puberty blockers are designed to prevent little children from going into puberty - do you actually really want 9, 10, 11 year olds to have periods etc.?

Beth McWilliams

So then why did my filthy mind assume you meant a cute tush

Nina V~

as an afab person with a buzzcut, i have gotten a few side-eyes in the bathroom

John W

Not just a J.K Rowling episode but come across the pond and take on prominent TERFs like Jesse Singal

Charlotte

Just wanted to say that I love this series and am eagerly awaiting the next episode. Yes, I know that's a weird thing to say about this shitty topic. But it's so informative, even while it drives me up a wall.

Lu

If you're doing a JK Rowling episode, make sure to check out Contrapoints videos on her. In one of them she mentioned a case where Maya Forstater got mad at a genderless alien library mascot for children. She got so mad she demanded to know how does this alien reproduce if it's nonbinary.

Z F

Right, in context Moira was talking about how easily transphobia bleeds into policing everyone's gender presentation

MoonWondering

The nice middle class Terfs in the UK are indeed experts of the word - as you say hiding their true hate under middle class veneer of educated liberalism e.g Tortoise Media did a podcast on the Tavistock which they said was balanced, but if you dug just a little below it was really TERF material.

Beth McWilliams

I’ve never read Harry Potter and neither have any of my family or friends, but it’s easy to see the warm accepting community the books have created. Perhaps leave JK out of the whole thing and discuss the nature of the cultural impact of the series and how her comments have affected it? Has the warmth and acceptance of the Garry Potter fan world remained? That’s what it always looked like on the outside and yes typo but it stays.

Sarah

Hey again from just off Terf Island, very much enjoying this series and would love a JKR episode. The division between the value of expertise or experience depending on where you land is very much in evidence for parents too. The GC parents are warriors for truth, justice and science, the supportive ones are interfering perverts who transed their kid for clout, profit or personal gratification. Right, gotta go trans my kid- they’re starting to look a little cis round the edges… it’s so easy to let it slide as we careen through the whirlwind of medical interventions. **Hollow laughter between bouts of hysteria.**

Jae Bach Hardie

As a trans woman who lived in the UK from 2009 to 2021 it's very cathartic to hear you two look at this timeline and be like "wait WHAT?" It was so weird to see this nonsense gain traction all over the media but also even in the relatively young and lefty circles I ran in

Rachel M

omg you guys the hannah barnes book is *so* bad. it’s so difficult to figure out what actually happened at tavistock when thats the most thorough journalistic effort so far

Moira Donegan

“They’re starting to look a little cis around the edges” all timer

SPUM

Adrian is absolutely cooking here

Katie

2 terf 2 island 😂

Sheryl D

As a mom of a trans girl and someone that spent 2 decades researching quality of medical care/evidence based medicine - thank you for doing these episodes. I came to read the evidence reviews bc of my daughters own path and read them as a researcher. I didn’t know about the discourse prior bc I wasn’t really online a lot. I was a bit perplexed when I started hearing the discussions bc it didn’t match the evidence base. I’m sure you’ve done the research but I think there are some very important aspects of reading evidence reviews ppl get wrong that lead to confusion and as you note very incurious journalists. The discrediting of experts is something that is so true - ppl completely suspend why ppl that see teams kids day and day out would be so dogmatic if kids are being harmed. Plus, the version imagined by those that oppose care vs the reality are so different. I have tried to listen and understand how we got here and I think so much of it is that the right wing talking points tap into anxiety in the population. I’ll be honest it was scary as hell having my daughter talk to us and even if we had nothing against trans ppl I didn’t want her life to be hard. Plus I had deconstructed a life in a conservative religion with traditional gender roles (that I bucked and felt guilty for doing so) - so I couldn’t even imagine was it meant to feel bring a gender. But my feelings weren’t my daughter’s problem. And guess what it is a lot less scary than it felt then. It’s funny that my credential of being a mom is also discounted by the right bc apparently I came to the wrong conclusion about my own child.

Masie McCandless

Thank you again for doing these episodes. Towards Moira's point about the comorbidities, that was completely accurate in at least my case. I have suffered from depression since about age 11. At age 18, I was diagnosed with bipolar, and at the time, despite lots of therapy and very expensive medication, I was pretty confident I would not live to be 25. As I started to explore my gender identity and went to therapy for that, suddenly I was having a lot more breakthroughs and a lot more hope in life. But, I was also living in Oklahoma and on my very conservative, very transphobic parents' insurance. So, I literally moved around the world to Japan, where I felt safe to start my transition. Now, although I am still obviously bipolar, it is completely manageable, and I'm happy to say I'm accepted at my work; I'm accepted by my friends; I'm accepted by much of my family; I have a loving boyfriend; and I look forward to growing old and seeing what life brings me. None of this would have been possible had I not been lucky enough to make my escape and live as myself. Am I still bipolar? Obviously. Would that have been what killed me? I would argue no.

Nina

I'm an autistic cis woman with a lot of online trans friends so I have been seeing this "people might think they are trans but are actually autistic" rhetoric for years, now it's calling my attention that they are using THIS SAME RHETORIC for autistic people like "kids are being diagnosed with autism too soon when they aren't actually autistic" and I'm wondering if there is also a gender conservative angle to this because it seems like the concern is mostly about women being diagnosed with autism. I know that during the time where I was trying to get someone to test me for autism a psychologist told me I just had to connect with my feminine energy so I don't know I think there's something there

Rosie Govt-Name

"I agree that would be bad if it was happening" might be a t-shirt haha

Dale

As a UK listener I’m so glad you’re covering this! And it’s so nice to highlight how absurd it all is here and culturally the U.K. likes the distance itself from US crazies we but really do have the monopoly on this one. I hope you cover Julie Bindel (who’s also a lesbian) and Suzanne Moore in the next one.

Nick

just in time for my diss 😎😎 icons thank you!

Katie Riley

Until very (very!) recently, I worked at one of the publications you mention multiple times in this pod, and the stories from the inside are absolutely bonkers

Karolina Novak

Moira, YOU are exactly what I hope my 10 year old daughter becomes ❤️

Amanda Marcotte

I think a lot of parents get very attached to their fantasy of who their child will be as an adult. Especially physically. Even into my 40s, I get a lot of resistance from my mother over tattoos and when I was a teen, she was very controlling over my hair. As a smaller child, huge struggles because I didn’t like certain outfits. And most parents I knew were worse. When these moms say, “I know my child,” they are confusing a fantasy concocted during the preverbal years for the child’s lived experience. The “just a phase” rhetoric is poison, because even when it is true, children cannot know who they are without experimenting. But parents are presumed to have a right to shape a child’s identity in ways I reject.

Coco

You’re my favorite weird nerds! Can’t wait for episode three on this one. It’s been a great discussion so far. +1 to the JKR episode. Please include a special crossover event of frenemy of the show Bari Weiss and her Free Press production of The Witch Trials podcast. Wowza what a puff piece. Btw, aren’t BW and JKR best buds now?

genrecomedy

i would looove a JKR episode l i think there’s a lot of ground to cover with signs of her conservatism really started showing when she was against an independent scotland ~2015, and her radicalization devolved since then as she stopped being lauded as a feminist for her trans exclusive views. however i feel like any discussion would benefit from actually wading into the actual text of p*tter and why it has this kind of seemingly liberal cultural impact that some self proclaimed leftists still can’t let go of. without the lens of nostalgia it’s really not as progressive as people remember i mean the women characters are written as weak and shallow if not straight up misogynistic. the politics of the worldbuilding is questionable at best and i think really reveals a lot of rowlings own biases toward racial supremacy especially since terfism is a cog on the right wing pipeline. obviously reading that long ass book series for a podcast ep (even a patreon exclusive!) is a lot to ask but even in a relaxed episode i think there’s sooo much to say there lol. why did she make the bank run by xenophobic goblins. Loved this ep as always and looking forward to the next part!!!!

Nick

N.B. Maya Forstater wasn’t even fired - she just didn’t have her contract renewed!

Astraea

I completely agree with the sentiment, but as a point of order, I started my period when I was *baaaarely* 12 years old. Puberty can naturally start as early as 10 or 11 for some kids. Mine definitely did. If this ridiculous fictional case were real, though, I would just assume the kid and their parents were trying to get ahead of things - make sure puberty can't start in the first place by starting the blockers a bit earlier than puberty is expected to arrive.

Astraea

Do you think her brain would explode if we explained to her that she herself (and all life on Earth) is descended from asexual reproduction? For some billions of years, all life on earth reproduced asexually, because it was all just bacteria and fungi.

Astraea

That psychologist should lose their license, JFC.

Katelyn

Call her Joanne. No respect of chosen names for the terfs.

CassieWasRight

If you end up doing the JKR episode and talk about the gay Dumbledore thing, I feel like it's important to note that in the actual books, the only mention of Dumbledore being gay is in a very 90s-tabloid coded homophobic excerpt in one of the early chapters in the 7th book where one of the villains implies that Dumbledore groomed Harry. (The other big word of god homophobic moment of course is when she said being a werewolf is like AIDS and then had the canonical werewolf character have been deliberately infected by an adult as a child. So. You know. Not exactly big ally vibes from her even then.)

Astraea

I'm not sure she goes by JK in her normal life. Iirc, she published under her initials because the publisher thought boys wouldn't buy the books if it was obvious they were written by a woman

Nina

FOR SURE, sadly I was too depressed at the time to do anything about it other than just leave her and look for another psychologist. I also had a psychiatrist that I tried to get to refer me for testing and he didn't want to, he said that I would never be able to get a PhD if I had autism and the social difficulties I experienced were just because I was a scientist?? I feel sort of a kinship with trans people with how health professionals keep ignoring our complaints and yet there is this social idea that doctors are not being criterious enough

Astraea

.... What. I am a scientist. We are NOT what you would call a low-autism-prevalence community. One of the reasons I've not sought an autism diagnosis as an adult is because I don't really need one - a normal job would be hell, but in the physical sciences I am among my people. (*I don't know for sure, obviously, without an official diagnosis.) Also did you get your PhD? Are you in grad school? Many kudos to anyone who tries it - I've walked that road and it's a hard one, but worth it.

Charley

Natalie Wynn really nails the terf mentality and even has a modicum of compassion for them (which clearly they do not reciprocate). She gets that these women are displacing their anger and resentment of cis men and patriarchy onto trans people/women because standing up against “the patriarchy” just feels too scary and overwhelming. If only they could find *feminism* which is there to help them feel less alone…

basil water

If you haven't seen the clip of Jinkx Monsoon talking about JK Rowling on Ziwe (in a Judy Garland voice might I add) dear god please go watch it

Kai

What is so funny (and incredibly frustrating) to me as a trans person is hearing about all these people "rushed into transition" and being like. WHERE WAS THIS FOR ME, HUH? I got the fastest track possible as a lucky person with access to insurance and supportive parents, and it was still YEARS of very slow and cautious steps, every step of the way being warned extensively about possible side effects, particularly the possibility of loss of fertility which was CONSTANTLY reiterated to me as if it was top priority over the rest of my physical and mental health. Eventually I was just like "hey you know I also can't have fucking kids if I don't want to live" and that shut most people up about it 🙄

Kai

Also, guess who is no longer clinically depressed OR anxious after transitioning? I'm the happiest and healthiest I've ever been even though the world is on fire and everything sucks, so I can only imagine how amazing my life would be right now if I didn't have to deal with the constant threat of institutionalized transphobia and the possibility of losing my healthcare or identification or job every day.

Olivia Hodgson

As an intersex person, it is UNBELIEVABLY frustrating that the right is so focused on pretend "harms" of gender affirming care for trans kids when intersex kids are literally being forced into sterilizing surgeries and hormones without proper consent and assessment (https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/07/25/i-want-be-nature-made-me/medically-unnecessary-surgeries-intersex-children-us). Many of these surgeries have significant, lifelong consequences and are done on actual infants. I was put on hormones as a teenager without any assessment, which made me really, really sick, in an attempt to make my body more typical. I'm also pretty lucky as an intersex person, because I had a provider do the bare minimum of ordering an MRI before doing exploratory surgery. Genital surgeries and hormone therapies can be super problematic, but not in the ways that they're being utilized to help trans kids and trans adults. As with so many things, the issue isn't the procedures themselves, it's the lack of informed consent for those receiving said procedures. I would love to hear Moira and Adrian’s thoughts on how the erasure of intersex people and sex as a spectrum impacts advocacy for queer and transgender folks, and would highly recommend Elizabeth Reis’s book Bodies in Doubt: An American History of Intersex to anyone who wants to learn more!

Audrey V

33:42: “Social transition: Children and young people may be socially transitioned *before referral to Tavestock* and ideas about gender and self-identification as transgender may already be entrenched.” (emphasis mine.) Forgive me for thinking this may be the single most revealing line in all of TERFdom! And specifically the word “before.” It’s not just that TERFS fear that children will cut their hair or change their names, it’s that they will do so *before they have obtained permission to do so from the proper authorities.* (The proper authorities’ most important job, of course, being to deny that permission.) It is not the child’s place to tell the parents how they wish to exist in the world. It is not the worker’s place to tell their boss how they wish to be treated. If there is one thing that distinguishes British culture from American culture in my view, it is an even more total absence of class mobility. And the problem with trans people is that gender transition itself often functions as exactly that: a mode of class mobility. Hence why it needs, in the minds of the anxious brits, to be so tightly controlled as to functionally not exist. That’s why TERFS style themselves as Cockney. That’s why they’re always calling Moira a “traitor to her sex class.” The rallying cry of the British TERF is: you do not have permission to change social classes.

Oceanna

In addition to the JKR episode and if you still feel like swallowing more of those text without going crazy, I would LOVE a deep dive into French researcher Marie-Jo Bonnet. She feels like a very interesting encapsulation of the paradox you started with - leftist view turning more and more transphobic, with a side of leftist argument against gay marriage. All of that being one of the leading figure of the 70s lesbian activism and research. Anyway, this deep dive is wonderful and I'm eagerly waiting for part 3!

Charley

This is so true, and from a feminist/female perspective, you could argue (as I think I do) that the overidentification of womanhood with motherhood, and our culturally extreme sentimentalisation of motherhood, plays into this inclination big time. If women are told their main destiny and purpose is “being a mom” then it can really backfire on the kids when they don’t turn out like the mom expects - too much of her sense of self is tied up in this maternal identity.

James Talley

Yeah, we got super invested in our kids being happy and alive. The world keeps trying to prevent that, but we don't regret a thing.

Frende Lorentzen

recommendation: debunking transphobia on YT. poor guy who went into the rabbit hole and came back 3 years later with a five hour long video

Frende Lorentzen

also please may we get a scandi special? bc the «experts» are losing their shit over here and whitewashing SEGM++

Amanda Marcotte

A really great point. So much of the emotional rationale for controlling children's self-expression really comes down to "what will the neighbors think?"

Jenny

Your ability to recognize that "my feelings weren't my daughter's problem" is something that MANY parents, especially conservative parents, are not capable of. Your child is fortunate to have you as a parent.

Jenny

Moira is exactly what I hope *I* become, and I'm 39 years old 😂

Sarah

I never understood the opposition to social transition either. Surely changing your haircut/name/pronouns is way more reversible than medical transition. So it would make sense to let people experiment with that!

wibbelkind

"We should do an episode on JKR" - Wait... Is this NOT the episode on JKR? 😅

Nevrosiel

Looking forward to the next installments, learned already so much in Part 1 & 2

Claire

Thank you for this recommendation! Debunking Transphobia by JasperDasper, really brilliant.

Claire

Sad Terf Island resident😞Fuck all mainstream media, obvs particularly BBC, but also Guardian capitulation🤪, who makes this happen.

Margaret

Excellent episodes and really thoughtful analysis thank you - I always find new ways to look at things when discussed here! As a resident of said TERF island, I'm wondering if you are going to address the repercussions from the Scottish government changes - in my understanding, a lot of pushback and current TERF groups (e.g. Women won't wheesht) came from decisions by the Scottish government (separately from the UK Govt) to try and simplifty gender identity policie. The recent Supreme Court Ruling led from the Scottish Govt policy too. Plus there's recently been a very well-publicised and grim case (Sandie Peggie) that a lot of UK TERFS have been all over. It feels to me a bit like what you have discussed about cis straight women being concerned about us poor defenceless lesbians - think of the poor defenceless Scots!? The general political and policy atmosphere in Scotland is/was to the left of England (huge generalisation, but overall) but we are seeing anti-trans BS rise too. There's obviously a lot to cover (and apologies in advance if you do cover all this!) but interested to see if you might add this other dimension from the devolved nations too? The brand new Scottish Government have not committed to standing up for trans rights, although in theory they are committed to 'equality'....

Tracy Beaucage

Since it was a concern mentioned, I also can’t wait for part 3

Krista

I did a paper on this (but in the Australian context) during my masters and it was one of the most radicalising experiences of my life. It blows my mind that intersex perspectives are still marginalised, despite increased interest in consent, children's rights, the conflation of social and medical necessity etc etc.

Krista

I completely agree. But when kids are really little, as a parent you do know a lot about them before they do. You’ve been watching them closely since they were born, and they are still figuring out the world. So I wonder if some parents just hold onto this perspective for too long. Dont recognise they are no longer dealing with a toddler.

lsh

Yes, "the witch trial of jk rowlings" is a masterpiece, and it would be interesting to revisit it now a few years have passed.

Clara

As someone who lives in the UK and has been campaigning in this area for 8 years this resonates so much. Also the fact that these people have arguably won all their goals but they still keep going is what baffles me.