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The Big Fourthwall Conundrum (Patreon)

Published:
2026-09-19 21:04:46
Imported:
2026-11

Content

As y'all know, we recently took down most, if not all, of our Monkey Wrench stuff from fourthwall store due to their sneaky a.i. stuff.

They've recently came out with a statement about it here on their site, linked below;

https://fourthwall.com/ai-transparency

Make sure you check it out before you continue reading.

So we're in a huge pickle right now in terms of merch stuff to help support the ever expanding costs of making a show like this.

After a good week of looking, doing research and the like, the only other big places that do it like fourthwall are currently;

  • Spring (which we used in the past and their quality was poor)

  • Red Bubble (the horror stories alone should be putting folks off this one)

  • Teepublic (baby red bubble)

  • Printify (concerning reviews about wildly varying quality)

Most other POD sites (like Printful and Gelato for example) can make the merch stuff in bulk and ship them to us and we have to handle the shipping, or the fourthwall way and buy directly from them piece at a time.

Several issues with this;

  • There is no built in store, we'd have to use another site to host stuff.

  • They charge the cost per creation to OUR bank first before getting paid by the customer.

  • Having to manually stock various shirt sizes and pray they all sell (like we do with pins) would be a nightmare

On the eve of Ep 6 being put out there we'll need something soon to try and recoup some of the horrific cost of this ep (we broke 6 figures on this one...).

So I put it to you guys, what are YOUR thoughts?

Do we go back to fourthwall, disable all the a.i. crap and go about our business and pray they don't screw us over?

Or do we do something else? Just pins and the like via Ebay until we find something more concrete?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Comments

talkawalk

look into shopify/shopapp, not sure what their policies are but by what i've seen they seem pretty good for selling merch. not sure if they print stuff or have a way to get on demand merch, but their storefront seems decent enough otherwise, if 4W has a way to disable the ai stuff, i would go with them and wait it out for the time being until something more concrete or planned out can be done. i feel like if it's an optional thing for a service you already have everything set up on, it would be best to just continue that until something better comes up

DeeplyJuniper

Honestly, I can't see a way Fourthwall could screw you over more than never selling certain products again would... Like, if the profit from shirts and posters etc is helping fund the show, and Fourthwall is still the best option, I would go back and just hold them to their word. If they break the promises in their recent statement, that's when I would abandon them.

LouisianaPyramid

I genuinely can’t say. I wish I could help but I’m clueless as to alternatives. Either way I hope you find a solution.

ByTheBrooks

Nobody reasonable who understands the situation is going to shame you if you put the merch back on Fourthwall and opt out of the AI slop machine. Fourthwall could be lying out their ass about stealing your work, and probably are, but you are just creators trying to survive despite having a hundred shitty situations thrown your way with no perfectly clean choices. Whatever the decision I know me and many others will stand by you 🫡

Silver APG Studios

I am still very new to this kind of thing so I can't say for sure, but If 4W swears that they won't be using AI for your products if you opt out of them then it might be the best idea for the current moment to go back working with them, just until you can think of something better to do. I would keep a heavy eye on them and if you notice anything sketchy happen then pull the plug on it but I do think for now working with 4W would be the best.

MacroDeSatire

Personally if fourthwall really doesnt train data and it's purely optional you might as well stick with them for now but look for an out if they start to encroach. It does come down to how much you trust Forthwall to keep their word, but if you really can just disable all the ai stuff, and the merch is not training it, I lean to keeping the merch up on there. Still not a great they snuck it in there though.

laimfunk

It would be a detriment to the health of the show if there wasn't any storefront available when the new episode releases, but this is definitely an issue that needs more time to solve. I think it'd be fine to disable the ai stuff on Fourthwall and continue with the store as is so you can focus on episode 6's release and marketing, then research alternate options while you still have an active store.

JajajTec

Not selling on launch would be disastrous! You could maybe try smaller Shops? Like BlueScreenApperel

Marsyas

Assuming fourth wall is the easiest option for you, with the new episode coming out and merch being necessary to keeping the show going, I'd stick with them. They say they're not training on your stuff and the AI is optional. Just keep it up for now and look for something genuinely better without the rush.

Sneb23

I would look into trying to follow what lackadaisy did, see if someone like glitch would handle the merch, production and distribution while leaving you be with your creative process. I know that's a bigger ask then this would imply, but it's probably the best long-term solution as they're far less likely to pull a stunt like this. In the short-term I kind of agree with the sentiments above, opt out of what you can for now so you have a storefront live while the new episode is getting a lot of views and in the long-term pursue something else rather than hoping they don't go back on their word. Either way, best of luck, I hope your sanity holds out.

Żółw Ninja

If the shirts make up for a significant chunk of profits then I say bite the bullet. It's an unfortunate situation to be dealing with on such short notice, we respect your ideals and very swift response.. but if you want to be moving inventory in like a week from now, your hands seem tied

QueenSimia

Yeah, right now, Fourthwall and disabling AI options seems the only way to go :/ The fact they put out a transparency statement after people got spooked is a *little* reassuring (though only a little, because why not lead with this)... Shopify isn't a solution, as it's an ecommerce platform and not a POD service, so unfortunately 4W really is kind of it for right now.

Arc Ray

idk how things work, but if you go back to Fourthwall and they do screw you over down the line, could Netflix get involved since they have a stake in your series now or does the situation not work like that when it comes to merch for the series?

Thomas Keefe

One concern I have about the statement from Fourthwall is whether they're telling the truth or not. The Fourthwall statement says that nothing happens without your approval and that the AI shows you what it will do beforehand and won't do it unless it gets approval. Didn't the AI already do something to your store recently where it changed your inventory numbers? If it did that without your consent and the AI was enabled without them telling you, that makes me think Fourthwall is either lying or the things they say in their statement are only true from this point on. That being said, given the situation and timing, I wouldn’t blame you for keeping the Fourthwall store open in the short term. Keep it open during this important time, like others have said, and continue to investigate a replacement. Once you can get something better worked out, drop Fourthwall.

TenshiWarrior

Maybe juniper creates could help out or glitch productions

Thorogrimm

Man that stinks, always a pain when companies sell out to the AI fad. I wouldn't blame you guys if you did want to stick with Fourthwall as they have been good to you guys so far it semms... but if you value integrity above all and would rather not risk it you could give either Printful or Prodigi a look?

Tower Inferno

Sharkrobot handled a lot of the Hellaverse merch for a long time. If that and Glitch won't work. I think going with Fourthwall is better than nothing. I hate AI like the rest and wish to see it destroyed. I'm all for boycotts if it's possible, but you also need to make a living. In truth the real key to stopping the AI nonsense is regulation.

NNNN

All I know is that AI is here to stay. It will be there whatever option you go with.

NNNN

Question: does the merch have to be a physical thing such as a pin or keychain? Are there any merch models of selling intellectual/Virtual items? For example, I would love to have a virtual interview or meet with your team and tour your work space or see the work process. I would pay for such a ticket.

Cyborg-Franky

I'd stick with fourthwall for now. Nothing stopping you from looking elsewhere but have it for the time being to help generate funds.

Rev Storm

I think you can trust that they won't be training on your data, because I'm pretty sure that is far outside their scope. They're renting out an AI that somebody else trained, probably through a middleman. They're using it for business management, not art generation. Which has its own host of problems, for much the same reason you shouldn't put a toddler in charge of your accounting (in addition to the environmental damage from data centers)...but, it's understandable, because otherwise it would be impossible for a small business to moderate a large userbase for things like hate speech. Also, nothing is going to stop OpenAI themselves from continuing to train their AI on everything available for online perusal anyway, because they think they're above accountability.

InuvationStudio

Since episode 6 is fast approaching, and you have in clear writing that Fourthwall will not train their AI models off of your products without user authorization, I would stick with them for now to lessen the risk of profit loss during a critical window. I recommend checking out Marmalade Handmade. They are an anti AI/Dropshipping e-commerce website that allows artists to sell handmade and hand designed art. Not sure if they are invite only though as I have not personally applied to sell on there yet.

KlutzyNinjaKitty

I agree with this. Immediately after an episode is the best time for sales and it really doesn’t make sense to change right now. That being said, I don’t trust Fourthwall since it seems like they’re only addressing this now since they got caught.

KlutzyNinjaKitty

I personally don’t trust their statement much at all nor would I trust them to keep their word. They had a chance to ask and/or disclose their new trajectory, but they chose to be sneaky about it. My two cents is this: If you can’t find an alternative in time for Episode 6’s release, then utilize them since immediate merch sales are more important. But, afterwards, I think it’s time to move on from them. Possibly to some place like Shark Robot? They already work with Vivziepop for Helluva Boss merch (plus a few other online creators) and I’ve bought pins from them before. The quality’s pretty good!

Jack JT

In my opinion, the transparency and care you’re putting out now about the situation makes a big difference all the same. Even if 4W gets caught breaking promises, you have the receipts to back up your place in it. That would suck royally of course, but at least you still have a consumer base that is aware. For the longevity of the show, I’d recommend you bring back the store with them.

Zhon Lord

DFTBA (Don't forget to be awesome) is another possibility you could look into. Otherwise, as long as you can opt out of the AI crap, it doesn't hurt to keep the option open for people to buy through for now. Think of it like holding on to a crappy job while you track down a new one.

Ncs_artist

have you tried bonfire?

N.R. Rowley

Could you sell the pins, stickers, and standees on ebay and keep selling the shirts on fourthwall with AI disabled?

Joseplh

I would either go back to fourth wall or keep looking. Have you considered contacting Glitch? They were in the same boat as you as an indie animation studio, but have become a merch company that sells to raise fund for other animators under their umbrella(TADC, Murder Drones, etc.). They have made special deals like the funding for lackadaisy in exchange for merch rights.

Your Humble Host

Hmmmm, I'd say go back to Fourth Wall for now and see how it plays out. I'd keep my eyes open in the meantime too for something better to come along.

Slagmor gladwin

I think it’s just one of those unfortunate circumstances where the company is being shitty, but they do what they do better than the alternative so it’s best to just stick with them for convenience. Kinda like the whole discord situation tbh

Tori Williams

I think all things considered sticking with Fourthwall at least for the release of this episode since it's SO close is perfectly fair and understandable and I hope that they keep their word. Maybe for the future see if you can get set up with finalfinalproject? I'm not sure how that works website-wise but Welcome Home uses them and that's a smaller team as well.

John Olmstead

In my personal opinion, I won't hold it against you for you to go back to fourthwall, as scummy as the ai stuff is. If you're strapped for funding, sticking with fourthwall is probably your best option.

Chetzale

Since the episode is releasing soon I’d suggest doing whatever works best for the time you have to set it up. I totally get not trusting such a site after their BS, but I think for now you should be safe. You see almost every social media forcing AI bullshit but there’s always an option to opt out.

StickerPrice

Do whatever you can. Its really tough for one of the toughest art professions. Hold on.

Pickled Herring

What they said ☝️ The way AI is being forced upon us all is something that's hard to fight off, especially in your situation. I think it's great to see you're putting such genuine effort into avoiding it. With how transparant you are, and with the situation being what it is, I very much agree that I dont believe anyone can hold it against you. As for your art being used for AI training: yeah it's probably bull, but then even if it wasn't bull there's probably several other AI companies scraping Fourthwall, just like they do Redbubble, Imprint an several othe print to order sites 🫠 Not to say we should give up the fight, but you are in a situation that doesn't lend much wriggleroom in that particular protest movement. There's, for us fans and consumers, more to gain to support you on Fourthwall with your full merch roster, than to let you struggle. You guys are after all putting out the very thing that opposes AI the most. 🌻

Potaku

It's insane you guys broke 6 figures this time. Thank you so much for the quality but please don't die of bankruptcy! I'll agree with most people in the comments and say it's too important to keep the cash flowing upon the release of episode 6 and Fourth Wall seems to be the fastest/most convient way to do it at this time. Edit: I also don't recommend prebuying the merch and doing fulfillment yourselves. Not only is it a lot of extra work but my brother in law had a fairly popular webcomic and did his merch that way. Had some straggling items that he was only able to get rid of about 10 years after the comic ended.

TheDiviler

damn this does suck rn, but the general consensus seems to go back to fourthwall but look for better options in the meantime while ur still rolling out the new episode

RTSquish

..Redbubble horror stories?

ArcadePunk312

Like the others have said, if the opt-out options are legit and actually work, it's understandable if it ends up being necessary to go back to them, especially given the time limit to episode 6. They still tried to sneak it in though, so in my opinion, it might be a good idea to keep looking and just stay on Fourthwall until you can find a good or better alternative. Or until Netflix hopefully starts that exclusivity deal (you mentioned that Netflix would be handling the merch in that deal right? I could be remembering wrong).

Berthold Antares

According to Tracy Butler, Juniper is unable to satisfy the needs of indie show creators, that's why Lackadaisy has moved its merch production to FinalFinal_Project

Lunar!

Dude it’s a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation either way. I say just pray to the creative gods the a.i stuff doesn’t screw you over as long as you turn it off

Brian M

Fourthwall might be the easiest route, but why not spin up a Shopify store? I run a consulting / marketing agency and we've helped creators spin one up in days. Plus they have a ton of additional options for POD. You can also easily connect your store to eBay, Amazon, etc. Happy to help out - I love the series and wouldn't mind giving back!

Evan Burgess

I know OrchidEight does (quality) merch for a bunch of people. Idk if that's an option.

Boel Lundqvist

I understand so little about what it means to run an online store, I'm not sure I dare give you my input. What I will say is this, if you do decide to go back to fourth wall, I will be 100% behind you. I will also say that I don't really buy t-shirts, I'm more focused on pins, plushies and cups, so if those are easier to sell on Ebay I'll also be behind you on that move. I wish you the best in these difficult times.

Designated Red

I want to support the series, so I understand the idea of using forthwall and hoping they remain honest. It's my hope another option will eventually become available.

Steven

As someone who works with AI as part of a living - if they say they won't train on your work they are not. AI models have so much information already they don't need to train off of other's creations anymore. I wouldn't worry about it. Just do what's best for your cash flow and don't let it stress you out. Enjoy! And congrats on the netflix deal! You're series has earned it!