NTR Discussion & Poll - Seducing The Devil (Patreon)

LONG POST ALERT!!!

This game has seen quite a lot of outrages regarding the "Sharing" and "Cheating" aspects of it.

While on Patreon, it was all about the "Sharing" part and labelling it as "NTR", on other sites the "Cheating" part was brought up and it got the "NTR" tag.

I've always maintained that this game doesn't have "NTR".

The problem mainly is with the fact that people can't differentiate between "Cheating" and "Cuckolding".

Today I'm going to explain why this game doesn't deserve the "NTR" tag (As best as I could without spoiling much)

I've attached 5 images from VNDB (it's the best possible source). They are labelled as NTR Type "A", "B", "C", and "Lesbian". The other image explains what things are required in order for a game to be classified as "NTR".

Let me first cover the "Sharing" aspect of the game.

This involves 4 characters. MC, Jason, Kylie, and Riley.

There are multiple scenes where all 4 of them engage in sexual activity.

While many thought that this alone deserves the "NTR" tag, it really doesn't.

In simplified form: Kylie and Riley weren't MC's love interests when those sexual activities took place. They were shared with the MC by Jason. They belonged to Jason at that time.

NTR Type "A", "B", "C", and Lesbian don't apply to this because as explained above, they weren't love interests back then. Anything that happened between them was due to Lileva's influence. When they do start feeling love towards MC, you find out that Jason isn't allowed to touch them anymore. Thus, Jason's girls are stolen by MC and Jason got cucked.

Now to explain in detailed terms based on what VNDB says :

1. The protagonist's significant other, a very close friend, or in some cases, a close relative is stolen from him by someone seducing, coercing, blackmailing, outright raping them, or by using other techniques. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are literally stolen, but the negative feelings experienced by their significant other might make it seem so.

> Here it says significant other (X), very close friend (✓), or a close relative (X) is stolen (X) from him. While they are close friends, they weren't stolen.

> Says "it doesn't necessarily mean that they are literally stolen, but the negative feeling experienced by their significant other might make it seem so." MC doesn't get any negative feelings when that happens. Instead, he says that he quite enjoyed their time together. As he had no love for them, he doesn't qualify as significant other. He knows the girls belonged to Jason and he was just enjoying them.

2. The one who loses their loved one almost always finds out about the situation and suffers from jealousy and the feeling of helplessness arisen from an inability to change anything. The one stealing the lover and/or the stolen loved one might rub it in by humiliating the loser in private or in public.

> MC didn't lose his loved one and didn't suffer from jealousy and the feeling of helplessness. Instead, his involvement made Jason lose his girls to MC.

> You can point out that Selina became Jason's girlfriend and it should've caused jealousy as she is a love interest. In this case, MC was already aware that she was pretending to be Jason's girlfriend to make MC jealous. Jason never got to touch Selina and she made sure of it.

3. The trait does not apply if the character having sex with someone else does not have a close loving relationship with the protagonist, and if the protagonist does not experience jealousy and other negative feelings upon finding out about the act. In other words, the ties between the partners and their forcible separation is important to the netorare fetish. For example, an unrequited crush or a potential hero(ine) on a different route would not count for the purposes of this fetish.

> As explained above, this point clears up the "Sharing" aspect. Kylie, Riley didn't have a close loving relationship with the MC. MC didn't feel jealousy and other negative feelings. No forcible separation happened. Instead, Jason got separated from Kylie and Riley.

4. The act of stealing must happen while the protagonist is in a relationship with the stolen significant other. Scenes of heroine's past relationships do not count as Netorare. The game is usually portrayed from the perspective of someone losing his significant other, in order to delve deep into the jealousy aspect of the fetish, however, for story purposes the game might switch between multiple POVs and also portray the events from the perspective of the stolen SO.

> Says the act of stealing must happen while the protagonist is in a relationship with the stolen significant other. MC wasn't in a relationship with Riley or Kylie. Selina was in a relationship but her relationship with Jason was fake to begin with. She cucks Jason in the lingerie store scene.

This should clear up everything regarding the "Sharing" part of this game and why it's not "NTR". The reason why I've made it optional in the latest update is that many just don't like watching sharing scenes or to be specific, another cock getting action. I've made it optional and you can play without seeing other girls being shared with another male character.

Now for the "Cheating" aspect of the game involving Ella (MC's girlfriend) and Madison.

Many (Not on Patreon) has stated that this is "NTR" and should be tagged as such. Said if that was a male character instead of Madison, then it would've been tagged very easily. While I agree that if it was a male character then it would have seen even more outrage, I still wouldn't have given it the "NTR" tag. Also, plotwise it wouldn't have made any sense.

On another site, the game has already received the "NTR" tag. I didn't contest it due to the fact that I had no interest in arguing with people that are fixated on their own little bubble. Also, I do understand why the admin added the tag. Very little content was available and whatever was available at that point, was pointing towards it being "NTR".

Other than that, the only thing you had to rely on were my words. Time and time again I've assured you that there will never be "NTR" in this game and I thank you for your continuous support.

Now let me explain why it's not "NTR".

I'm sure that you have played the latest update. We've explored the "Ella + Veronica + Selina USA" route. I'm sure that you have paid close attention to Ella's dialogues after she finds out what Madison has been doing behind her back.

This is what she says:

"I've never wanted this between us!" 

"From day 1, I've hated everything we've done together! But I've still kept quiet because I cared for you!" 

"How could you do this to me?!" 

"MC is going to fucking hate me when he finds out!" 

"He will think of me as nothing but a cheat! My love for him would mean nothing!" 

"The first time with you was a mistake and I regret kissing you back to this day!" 

"Still, I've put everything on the line just so that I could stop you from having suicidal thoughts!" 

"You've broken my trust! You've used me! I'm never going to forgive you for this!"

NTR Type A: The heroine is willingly cheating on the protagonist with another guy and enjoys every second of it. No rape, blackmail, drugs etc. involved, it's consensual sex from the very beginning.

> You could say that Ella is cheating on MC, but she doesn't enjoy it. It's consensual from a POV that she is not rejecting Madison but she doesn't want it herself. She is having sex with Madison (that's cheating) but she isn't doing it to hurt MC.So, it doesn't qualify as a willful act. Add to the fact that she doesn't enjoy doing it. NTR Type A rejected.

NTR Type B: Initially, the heroine is raped, blackmailed, drugged or otherwise tricked to have sex with someone other than the protagonist. However, she eventually starts enjoying it and the sex becomes fully consensual in the end.

> It's the same as Type A really. She was tricked to have sex with Madison. But she doesn't start enjoying it. She hates every second of it. NTR Type B rejected.

NTR Type C: The heroine is raped in front of the protagonist and he can only helplessly watch it. It's non-consensual from start to finish.

> I don't need to explain anything other than the fact that this never happened in the game and never will. NTR Type C rejected.

Now comes the tricky one. The one that actually has some ground for argument.

Lesbian NTR: The games which contain the scenes with protagonist's female significant other being stolen by another female, should be given this tag.  

It's important to note that due to the prevalence of "girl-on-girl is hot" trope, it's common for many VNs to throw in lesbian scenes between the heroine and another female. Most of the time it is not considered NTR due to the protagonist not minding or even encouraging the lesbian exploration of their significant other. Only use the tag if another female clearly has a design to steal the heroine, and the protagonist experiences jealousy and other negative emotions associated with the netorare fetish.

** MILD SPOILER ALERT **

> Tag should be used if another female (MADISON) clearly has a design to steal the heroine (ELLA). This could be the main argument for many that Madison is trying to steal Ella from MC. But the truth is that Madison has no such plans. While the current plot in the game makes it seem like Madison is trying to do that, but isn't really the case. She has a different plan and it doesn't involve stealing anyone from MC. I'm going to let your imagination work and try to figure out what's happening. Go back to the scene where Nathan was punishing Madison. Read the dialogues. Then look at what she is doing with Diana. It's very complicated but will be cleared when we progress with the plot.

It's important to note that you can't call something "NTR" if all of those things don't check the boxes altogether. I'm heavily influenced by Japanese VNs and have communicated with many Japanese artists regarding how they label their VNs. I'm probably pushing the limit as far as I can, but I haven't crossed the "NTR" line.  Lesbian NTR rejected.

Now let me clear up the points that are mentioned in VNDB's extended explanation :

** SPOILERS **

1. The protagonist's significant other, a very close friend, or in some cases, a close relative is stolen from him by someone seducing, coercing, blackmailing, outright raping them, or by using other techniques. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are literally stolen, but the negative feelings experienced by their significant other might make it seem so.

> No act of stealing is happening. MC may feel jealousy right after finding out or after catching them, but that would be dismissed as soon as the plot starts progressing more.

2. The one who loses their loved one almost always finds out about the situation and suffers from jealousy and the feeling of helplessness arisen from an inability to change anything. The one stealing the lover and/or the stolen loved one might rub it in by humiliating the loser in private or in public.

> MC won't lose Ella to Madison.

3. The trait does not apply if the character having sex with someone else does not have a close loving relationship with the protagonist, and if the protagonist does not experience jealousy and other negative feelings upon finding out about the act. In other words, the ties between the partners and their forcible separation is important to the netorare fetish. For example, an unrequited crush or a potential hero(ine) on a different route would not count for the purposes of this fetish.

> Forcible separation won't happen due to Madison. There is no such plan so that Madison can have Ella to herself.

4. The act of stealing must happen while the protagonist is in a relationship with the stolen significant other. Scenes of heroine's past relationships do not count as Netorare.

> Again, Madison won't steal Ella from MC. That's not what she is trying to do.

This should be enough of an explanation to figure out why I don't call this an "NTR" game. It really isn't. It's a fucked up plot, I know.

Now you know everything (other than the future plot). It's time to decide whether or not you want this to be optional just like the Jason plot.

Do want me to make it so that Madison-Ella cheating becomes optional? Do you want the Madison patch?

It's not "NTR" just like Jason plot isn't "NTR" either, but some people may not enjoy seeing their virtual girlfriend getting fucked by another woman.

I'm giving you the opportunity to decide.