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Nathan Apffel is a Christian, filmmaker, entrepreneur, and director of The Religion Business, a multi-part docuseries that exposes the financial practices and lack of accountability in Western religion, particularly Christianity. Drawing from personal experiences with church scandals and abuse, Apffel investigates how religious institutions accumulate vast wealth, estimated at $2 trillion in the U.S. alone, while often prioritizing internal spending over community impact, with 94 cents of every donated dollar staying within church walls. Co-produced with Chris Ayoub, the series features interviews with experts like Joel Osteen and highlights issues like the religious exemption from financial reporting.

Apffel is developing tech solutions to promote transparency and community-driven reform in religious organizations. He advocates for ethical governance, victim support, and redirecting resources to solve global issues like poverty and homelessness. Based in the U.S., Apffel blends storytelling, technology, and faith to challenge the status quo and foster meaningful change in the "nonprofit Goliath" of organized religion.

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Don

Jesus is king ✝️💜

Tom

Wow this should be good. Why am I surprised?

FrenchFriedFool85

What I think you are talking about is False teachers. Because a church is large doesn't mean it is corrupt. There is no reason the Church which is a body of people with multiple gifts of the Spirit cannot eat together and play together. The church is the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ and Christ is the groom. The gifts of the Spirit include the gift of preaching and teaching. We here as Christians are to spread the gospel unto the ends of the Church. The Television and Radio and now the vast communications in tech make it possible for those gifted with that task to send missionaries and teachers through out the world. Train teachers. There are specific instructions on how to approach these types Teachers in the Bible. You need to attend the churches you are exposing. Like it or not there are denominations with differences on doctrine some of which do not determine heaven or hell. God brings churches down, maybe he will use this man to expose, but people like Jimmy S. , Jim & Tammy Baker , recently Robert Morris , and many more have been brought down. If a Christian has the Holy Spirit living inside of him or her the and know the Word God gives them the gift of discernment and they know a fake when they see one, because what they do does not match up to the Word of God. And yes there are new Christians and it takes time to mature with the washing of our minds by the truth. Also remember that these Mega Preachers can be forgiven of their sin by God to we were all enemies of God but by grace Christ gives even the Faith to accept his crucifixion as a merciful act to be a sacrifice for our sins and the sins of the world. I have been around a long time and worked in Christian Radio when teachers like Chuck Swindoll, John Mac Arthur, Chuck Smith, RC Sproul and many started programs on the radio, Billy Graham. When I was in College There was campus Crusade. The secret is you DO NOT follow the man you follow Christ. When God spoke through an ASS in the Old Testament if proves that he can use even an animal to chastise a human. Recently an outstanding Theologian was brought down, I saw him many times and the doctrine was sound. WHAT TO REMEMBER is that when the WORD of God is spoken it never comes back void. This man's sermons were a vessel repeating what the Word said, I was convicted as to my own sins of not understanding how to love my enemy, but learning that we were once enemies of God . Also lying and how harmful it is. Two sermons caused me to grieve because I was not of aware of my sin. I asked Lord search my heart and show me my ungodly ways. He did, this minister was exposed many were stunned and he was put out, I pray for him. He will never preach again I don't think at least that would be a Correct assumption Biblically. SO SHAWN I commend your caution. I am open to see if God has appointed him if his move and I pray his motivation is Love for the Church and prayer for those who are violating Gods mission. The devil comes as a light . But when a Personality becomes an object of worship that is exactly what Satan did but it is he human who is accountable . The devil doesn't make people do things, it is a choice. I am talking of adult teachers and preachers. I worked with JImmy Swaggart. The Lord gave me discernment and it wasn't long.

Teena

Malachi 3:10 instructs people to "Bring the full tithe into the storehouse" and promises that God will "open the windows of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it". Shawn tithing is for the support of spreading the gospel NOT sound stages or salaries of church workers. You may not know anything about it but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a lay person church. Tithing is for the church building and things that go into maintenance of those structures. Daycare as well as all teachers are volunteers “called “ asked to serve.

Teena

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints missionaries PAY their own expenses to be in the mission field. Each missionary in every mission of the world has the same amount of money to cover expenses. Regardless of personal income and wealth. The person for a thatched hut and the wealthy receive the same amount in their budget for their support. Mom and dad CAN NOT send additional money or supplies! You need to invite a missionary into your home and ask multi??? Of them

ReBecca G-W

I'm out. This guy doesn't know what he's taking about.

ReBecca G-W

Don't listen to him. He doesn't speak facts. He is either Mistaken or telling bold face lies.

Jasdoe2u

One thing is how he states that Kenneth Copeland BELIEVES he is saving ppl?? That man is evil...I mean EVIL. Ever seen him when he is caught on camera being asked ?? that he doesn't like??? you might wanna check it out. But other than that so far a good interview as always.

Teena

This guy is lying for his own sake

Teena

All people even non members can get help from our store houses even in the form of cash!!! This guy doesn’t know what he is talking about

Thomas Schiavone

Shawn, what a great interview. So much truth in everything being shared in this interview. I'm in Colorado for the summer reading the Bible and praying daily. The wilderness is God's biblical church. I feel the holy spirit thanking you after this great interview. Same feeling after the interview about the Sound of Freedom movie and God's children. God bless you, your family, the SRS team and all of your guest you have on your show.

LeAnne C Freesemann

You are not turning people away from Christ —- real Christians want real Christianity !

Bryan Barrington

I've always felt this way so I'm thankful for this interview as a christian

Adam Zbozien

My goodness, my mind is completely blown. Thank you for getting this out. I have been in churches and even worked in them my entire life. My eyes have been truly opened, and I pray this helps discernment arise in Christians all over the world. It's time for accountability in leadership, and the people to rise and stand for the truth.

Christy G.

SRS Team, thank you so much for the time and effort you all spent making this episode. I thoroughly enjoy all your episodes. Whether I agree or not these always make think.

13R1@N Ag

There's a few bits of misinformation in this episode... I'd be careful believing all of the "shocking" facts that this individual is putting out.

Travis

Really enjoyed this interview! Glad y’all had him on! Jesus is herding us back to him!

Jared

What is the name of Nathan's docu series

Amanda Larson

Good episode. Some of his scripture interpretation is incorrect (where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, for example, ((Matt 18:19-20))

Old School Combative Arts

Man, this was eye opening! I am so glad I am being mentored learning the very things Nathan was talking about. Where church isn’t necessary and you are learning to be a disciple, work towards being Christ like, praying outside by yourself and keeping Jesus on your mind all the time. Talking to him as a friend forming a friendship. Great interview, I do think churches can be good but I don’t think gong once a week for an hour is enough and then going back to their material lives. I think many people will be surprised when they leave this Earth.

Sir. Torantino

it's so eye opening, i can see future where churches collapse basically u don't need buildings to be closer to god.

Deedra Swan

Correct... Church is ecclesia which is a governing body of Christian believers.

Deedra Swan

He is correct that the modern church is a business not the church.

Deedra Swan

In the latter days the word says that we will be taught of the Lord. The Lord can teach us we don't need to have a man interpret the Bible for us after we have grown in our faith. We can see truth through the Holy Spirit which will teach us.

Christine

Thank you so much for bringing Nathan on your show Shawn!! I have been following his posts since he put it out there and purchased his “The Religion Business” docuseries. It was absolutely incredible and full of truth. The light has been shone on the evil that does exist in the non-profit system for churches. I am a Believer in Jesus Christ as my LORD and Savior!

Deedra Swan

You will be shocked how many pastors are abusing the congregants.

Deedra Swan

I have been a Christian for quite a while and I have been connected with some amazing teachers of the faith who are outside of the church. The most powerful churches that I have been in are the small intimate churches. You are limited and growing in your faith in the bigger churches. The smaller churches are led by Holy Spirit. Growing intimacy with God and Jesus in the smaller churches

Deedra Swan

I think the Lord is changing the Dynamics of his church and how we will learn and connect with each other.

Jon Lyon

I will finish the interview but as soon as he put all religions on the same level he mostly lost me. 16:00 minutes in, don’t ever equate those satan inspired false religions with my Jesus and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I’m commenting at 16:00 so maybe he clarifies but I don’t like what he’s saying right now. There is one God.

JIM NEWMAN

Zoom a bible study ✝️

Lexi

This is freaking awesome!! So glad you had Nathan on!! The world needs to hear this!!!

Robert Diggins

Good thinking in this episode. Saying the congregants or worshippers or emulators of Christ are: 1. UNIFIED as the body of the Church 2. SMART and will fix things after getting the transparency they demand These are good reformation principles for The People unifying and getting transparency, to protect and defend The Constitution, which they, themselves, can read and discuss in groups. We could get the pirates out of OUR government, and have The Commons intact, allowing the protection of individual liberties and our national security. Maybe with better infrastructure and less crime. We need to comprehend the simple stuff, like private, for profit prisons are bad for our Justice System and have negative externalities for everyone. When the Justice System is privatized, no one will experience individual freedoms. This is the biggest ideological psyop around and keeps the people divided (now, with rabies) about 50/50, so that we don't unite. It's the false dichotomy between Individualism and Collectivism. They are INTERDEPENDENT, in our Constitution. We just need to know where to use each one. Anyway, I hope people get through the cognitive dissonance with this flip in the Christian Church. I think it will reduce authoritarianism, amongst both the leaders and followers. Then I can stop thinking that religion stops people from thinking, which I observe. Here, in the VE chat. I was just saying the same thing yesterday and somebody started throwing up quotes, instead of engaging with their God give cognition. That thing between stimulus and response. Hey, since we're coming up on the 24th Anniversary, let's push harder for more transparency. Trump promised to "release the 9/11 papers", but... I think we need to demand them. I know this subject might be sensitive for people who want to keep the war in Afghanistan (as a whole) virtuous, which has its foundation in the official narrative. Still a bad decision, in my book, but I'm here for the virtuous people, not the war profiteers who've scared the crap out of us and enraged us and gaslit us into a desire for World Domination, instead of Justice ⚖️ especially in our country. The guest had good principles, which is why they can be applied outside of religious thoughts, as well. He had a little trouble explaining the old adage about "good intentions" leading to bad outcomes. Simply said, it takes good intentions, best practices, and actions, not just good intentions, alone. Imagine someone with a gun and good intentions, but no training and/or ability to execute. (No pun intended!) Thanks!

Deedra Swan

Unfortunately we know some of the churches are trafficking. I know it's hard to fathom but it's true.

Jack Diddley Squat

The bunny and the eggs are a representation of a pagan goddess of fertility. Hence the eggs, rabbits don’t lay eggs they have live birth.

Suhail

Please have this guy back for part 2 and 3.

Joe Hector

Start talking about Samaritan Purse and how much money the top tier makes.

Eric Alger

The Bible never gives the exact date of Jesus’ birth. December 25 was chosen by the early church around the 4th century—not because it was His actual birthday, but because it came right after the winter solstice. As the days grew longer and light returned, it symbolized Christ—the Light of the World—breaking into spiritual darkness. It also redirected people away from Roman pagan festivals like Saturnalia and Sol Invictus. In the same way, Easter was set in connection with the Jewish Passover and the spring season. Passover already pointed to deliverance and new beginnings, and spring symbolized renewal and life emerging after winter. This made it a fitting time to celebrate Christ’s resurrection—the ultimate victory of life over death. The Easter bunny, however, has no biblical roots. It comes from old European spring traditions, where hares symbolized fertility and new life. German immigrants later brought the “Osterhase” (Easter Hare) to America in the 1700s, and over time it became tied into Easter customs.

Deedra Swan

I am so glad he's bringing up Paula White. She does it need to be anywhere near the president.

Joe Hector

Calvary Chapel leaders, including Smith, were the subject of a lawsuit alleging that they knew or should have known that a minister named Anthony Iglesias was prone to sexual abuse when they moved him from ministry positions in Diamond Bar, California, to Thailand, to Post Falls, Idaho.

Deedra Swan

Man he did a great job! Godspeed Nathan!!!

Tee Lock

Did this guy ever provide any evidence offline? Although I agree with many of these claims in principle, I’m not convinced that some of this this is truth over hyperbole. I’m also reading the comments and this might get scary.

Dixie Croft

Jon Pounders or David Carrico of #Now You See TV/FOJC/#TheMidnightRide have a lot of answers to your questions. Ask them to your show. I've studied history, scripture, and Christianity for several decades. I have seen God's works and man's black heart. It's quite a ride. Keep seeking. The Jesus Christ i know honors all who seek Him earnestly. Godspede +

Dixie Croft

@Deedra Swan the first time I heard her preach i felt the demonic force of deception was strong within her.

Beverly

By 18:30, yep, I’m persuaded Nathan knows my God, e.g., dangerous, I’m not in control and the tribulations. It’s been a clashing journey for me to learn the reality of God and unlearn the soft American version of God. I’m looking forward to the rest of the interview. THANK YOU Shawn & Team for your fine, encouraging productions. Being housebound, you’ve been a lifeline for me.

Barlow

Evil can hide in the church and evil people can pose as leaders or pious people that doesn't make the church wicked it does give a responsibility to the church to be accountable and acknowledge it and remove it just as Christ called on us to do.

Nate

Somebody slap this guy please. He doesnt believe in needing anyone to teach him the bible and it shows. Even though teachers are part of the 5 fold ministry. And leave the church alone Shawn. Horrible show this one. Of course there's church corruption. There's corruption in anything humans are involved in. Why shine a global spotlight on church corruption? The fact you wrestled with doing this interview out of fear of turning people away from Christianity i think is your answer. Most of what he's whining about isn't illegal. This dork just wants it to be, and is against the church.

Lydia

Happy you've exposed this. I am the daughter of an Baptist evangelical pastor, and the ex wife of a Baptist worship director. The resons you've listed are a part of why I got divorced. Many associations are cult liek, and abuse from the top down , whether its financial, physical, spiritual, or mental, is rampant. Those who confront it, are lambs for the slaughter (enter, my story). I do know of some decent churches, but ill never be a member nor will I ever remarry a church leader, and often distrust those who are so deep into church that they just accept and trust without questioning the laws and bylaws, or fail to recognize the truths in the tax codes.

Melissa Majus

I have to be honest- the first 30 min or so I was unsure how I felt about this interview. BUT WOW an hour and a half in I’m so glad I stuck around. The whole 14 point thing with the CIA makes so much sense… my mind is blown and my eyes are opened. Thank you Shawn.

americangunslinger 24/7

2 Peter 2: 1-3 Talks about false teachers and leading people astray. Know your Bible and the historical evidence that backs it up.

Beverly

19:30 & 31:30 reminds me of my devout step-father, a Lutheran minister. At his last church he wanted to be more Christ-like and announced that the offering plates would be put near the door and those who wanted to give or those who needed to take were welcome. The denomination had several conversations with him explaining that that would not pay the mortgage or their salaries so he left and got a job with the city of LA and spent his evenings ministering at MacArthur Park where he became known as the sock man. A homeless addict asked for a pair of socks but Gordon until he realized he was wearing socks and gave them to the man. The trunk of his car became full of socks bought as seconds or donated from companies. He memorized so much scripture that he never needed notes for his sermons. He walked the talk.

Parker

Lifelong active Latterday Saint here. This is a great interview, but regarding the LDS church, there are a few things that are not true and a few things that need additional context. I encourage others to do additional research on tithing and the humanitarian work the LDS church does. Regarding the money the church has, Elder Bednar (an apostle) talks about this in the link below. At 26mins https://youtu.be/mpm3O1raENw?si=pYHGDjyQiA-3-3Pf

Tim

Do people turn away from medicine due to a bad doctor? Do people stop eating because of a bad restaurant? Do people stop driving because of a bad dealership? No, so if people turn their back on the I AM, the Alpha the Omega, the Beginning and the End then they are ignorant and entitled beyond repair. Another great interview SRS. None of this is shocking, if the local "preacher" does this, why wouldn't any. Wake up people.

Richard Beemer

First I applaud Shawn for this interview and it is awesome to see how God is moving in his life, in praying over this interview and being concerned with the outcome, this shows how the Holy Spirit is using him and speaking to and through him........ I have worked/attended at one mega church here in Baton Rouge in the late 1980's - early 1990's, and attend another here as well now. My current church has auditors and complete financial statements distributed yearly and I appreciate getting that yearly breakdown. Seeing what Nathan and his group are doing and exposing those spoken about in the interview is something I believe that was to come and if not eventually God will have them revealed for who and what they are not to mention that one day these will answer to him and on that day it will not be good. I do not agree with all spoken about in the "church aspect" even though I do believe there is a business line that has to be taken and of course governmental regulations set that those use as "loop holes". Yes the church is the "Body of Christ" and I feel personally more..... it is brick and mortar operations and a symbol of a place to gather a place God inhabits if allowed and he/spirit dwells in. I can't help but think that in these "Last Days" those who are deceiving many is part of the end time prophesy leading up to the second coming which I feel is closer than most think. Once again those will face a final judgement (as we all will one day) and if they do not repent will face our mighty God on that day and receive what they have sown in adulterating the body of Christ by greed, power, and ego, speaking and proclaiming all in his name.

Boss

501c3 That has to be the best way to distribute. And keep money front m being double taxed from.. .. ..

Dave's Radio Channel

I always ask "What does the Bible say? Show me ". That starts an argument. Just because you have heard it all your life doesn't mean it is in the Bible.

Cory

I applaud Ryan for this interview and think he handled it well. I believe this summarizes well the differences between misc. Christian churches and the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic priests aren’t the big name pastors making money and the Church is built on worshiping God and celebrating Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Tim

There’s evil every where and I’m definitely concerned with the church however, Nathan and I went to different churches, I am the son of the man that was behind the pulpit. It was a small church, but that church family and the spirit they brought to the table was amazing. I’m very upset with the corporate church. But I remember waking up to my dad praying out loud for God to fight his own demons, he was a good man. A righteous man recognizes their faults and grieves over them. Preachers are human, no one is perfect, but there was a reason for our church being a small church, it was because the truth was being preached from the pulpit. I may be a knuckle dragger but I know where my heart is and I know who convicts me and I know who guides my life. I’ll never find a church like the one I grew up in, but I’m still searching. There’s some truth to this interview but to say Christianity is evil? That’s a bit to broad for me, there were a few things on this cast that were outside of the box in my opinion. Either way, Shawn always brings it, good on you Shawn. There may be some good that gets shaken out of this.

Nate

Paul explicitly commanded the church to support ministers financially. The bible even mentions elders being paid for teaching and their service. don't muzzle the ox. And the bible says that whoever teaches you spiritual matters you need to repay them with good material things. He needs to read that big old bible he's giving away more often. And we shouldn't have buildings? Stupidity. Yes we all know the church is the body of believers. But we also gather in buildings with modern amenities. You can't take 300 people to Starbucks for a bible study. What happens if 2k people want to come because revival breaks out with miracles and signs and wonders? You need a big ol building. So as much he thinks ministries making money is so dirty, get over it bro. The Gospel is free but ministry is not. You need food,plumbing,toilet paper,buildings, Money! I hope everyone he's calling out gets more donations after this 🤣 You know what's not part of the 5 fold ministry? What hes doing. Being God's sheriff and publicly calling out pastors with zero authority. He's not a prophet,pastor,or apostle or an evangelists. Just a whiny butt that doesn't like buildings and money and nice things. Should we also ride donkeys bro since jesus did instead of cars? Should pastors also not fly commercially since jesus never flew in a jet? How much money is this guy giving away? Probably less than everyone hes calling out. Just stop dude. What a silly man thinking you can drive up to a pastors parsonage and take a look around since you gave to the ministry. Its private property and every pastor should have privacy and safety from weirdos like you. 🤣

Denise Mercer

While I agree with a lot of his statements about the Church, he is wrong about Samaratin’s Purse. Just ask any person here in this country that has been affected by a disaster. They are first to respond. Not the government. You have to have supplies on hand because you don’t know when a disaster will hit. They go all over the world as well. This organization proudly shows their business statement. I think that Franklin Graham will stand before Jesus and will hear “Well Done Thy Great & Faithful Servant.” Also, I do not begrudge Pastors being paid. No jets, no mansions unless they have another business. Jesus said help the poor but how do you do that without money? Not everything is black & white.

Chris Garner

I think it all boils down to - 1 - Pastors are human. 2 - The father of all lies has had a lot of practice at deception 3 - And as long as The Church is handled above board, it is essential for the world. It is yet another great interview that makes one pause and think, read scripture, and pray. There will be false prophets, and like Rich pointed out - pray for discernment ! Thankyasir for another goodun.

JB Austin

Man that was the best one yet

Jess

This is a great episode! 👏👏👏

Jessica Foor

I have no words to express how much I relate to this entire episode and everything said. I grew up “going to church” and have been calling it a business my whole life…. Because it is. My relationship with Jesus Christ is better than ever without any of that in my life. Ty for putting all of this out there. I love it

TheHoff

The local church is "incorporated" only to the extent that the congregations differentiate themselves from other organized groups. The "church" is the body of Christ universally; however, the gathering of Believers in a local area also constitutes a "local church". The corporate organizations or denominations, even the more loosely defined "fellowships"are simply a tool for centralized doctrine, education, service, and coordinated ministry. This individual seems jaded by his observations and experiences and paints with such a broad brush that it diminishes his credibility. The accountability and pay day is coming and regulated by the Divine Accountant. Jesus said, many will say they did things in His name, and the response will be "Depart, I never knew you." Hell is forever and man looks on the outward appearance but God looks at the heart.

Lily Rab

This has been the single most impactful interview I have listened to of yours Shawn. I cannot thank you enough for taking this risk. I could tell you were a bit uncomfortable in the beginning, which shows the depth of your courage. Great job, my brother in law Christ.

Josh Pomponio

I know god exists with out a doubt but I don’t believe in organized religion I don’t believe in need to be in a building to talk to him

Eric Alger

Deuteronomy 29:29 says the revelation is not just for us, but for our children. God doesn’t just deal with individuals, He deals with generations. And what does He do in Exodus? He tells Moses to put manna—the bread from heaven—in a pot and store it in the Holy of Holies for future generations. Why? Because manna wasn’t just food. It was a type, a shadow, a preview of Christ. Fast-forward to John 6. The Jews say, “Our fathers ate manna in the desert.” And Jesus flips it: “That wasn’t the real bread. I am the bread of life. I am the bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of Me will never hunger.” That’s the point: Christ is the true manna. The miracle in the wilderness wasn’t just about survival—it was pointing to the greater miracle: Christ living in us, feeding us, sustaining us. Just like that pot of manna was hidden in the ark, Christ is hidden in you, the temple of the Holy Spirit. And here’s the kicker: the Word says it was kept “for your generations.” That’s us. That’s our children. The mystery of God, the bread of life, is a generational covenant. It’s not meant to stop with you—it’s meant to flow through you into your kids, into the Church, into the future. This is why faith and family are inseparable. We’re not just raising kids; we’re raising the next generation of temples filled with the bread of life. That’s the mystery revealed: Christ in you—and in your children—the hope of glory. The modern model of church-as-a-business often distracts from what God truly intended. Scripture is clear—we are the Church, the living temple of God. Jesus never commanded us to build buildings; He called us to be His body. This is the bigger picture that so many miss. Abraham wasn’t chasing land deals or monuments made by men—he was looking for a city not made with hands. A spiritual reality. The New Jerusalem. And Scripture is clear—the bride of Christ is that city. Hebrews says Abraham waited for “a city with foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” That’s not talking about stone walls or human blueprints—it’s talking about Christ as the foundation. Paul drives it home in 1 Corinthians 3: “For no man can lay another foundation than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” Here’s the point: we are God’s building. We are the temple. Christ is the cornerstone. And what you build on that foundation matters. Gold, silver, precious stones—or wood, hay, stubble. One will endure fire. The other will burn. This flips the entire “church-as-building” model on its head. The real Church isn’t a corporation or a sanctuary with a mortgage—it’s the people of God, built on Christ, the eternal foundation. That’s why Abraham was looking ahead to something greater. The city of God. The New Jerusalem. The bride of Christ. Bottom line? Stop thinking small. Stop thinking brick-and-mortar. God’s vision is way bigger. It’s eternal. And you and I are part of that city right now.

Sup Bruv

This is a great interview. If you’d like another guest that is amazing Richard Ellis at Reunion Church in Dallas, TX he would most likely say some of the same thing. He’s an amazing man of God. Not a mega church pastor by any means and has an amazing story. Taught me that Bible means basic instructions before leaving earth.

George Liaw

That bible is a historical treasure. Remember, best archival practice = clean dry hands! The fact that Shawn has the awareness to flip pages of that size means he's better than some trained archivists. I've seen archivists manhandle artifacts. Pretty horrifying.

C3RBERU5

Out of all your videos . . This one makes me reflect the most....

Zorro Lobo

I appreciate 90% of what Nathan is saying. I do not agree that you can Biblically prove that tithe (10%) is no longer a mandate. It is pre-law and alluded to in the New Testament. Jesus even praised the pharisees for doing it. The Apostle Paul only had to bi-vocationally work with his hands for a season, and there is emphasis in the New Testament on financially supporting those who labor in the Word for our benefit. Shawn, I truly appreciate your challenges onto Nathan's current beliefs. I mostly worked for the government (primarily in criminal justice and military chaplaincy) over a 41 year period. The goal was to never require the local church's tithe to pay my bills. This way, I'm not tempted to compromise to retain large donors now in civilian ministry. However, if the local church that the Lord may soon give us to shepherd now grows past what our living room can handle, a building will still likely be necessary. Possibly additional staff. It's hard to get away from need for money in ministry, and it is strewn through the length of the Bible, in various texts. A major problem is when Christ is no longer the main focus, and mammon takes His place as the main focus. Additionally, as Nathan mentioned, personal intake of the Word and personal prayer are absolutely essential for individual members of the Body of Christ. This helps us to recognize counterfeit messages.

Zorro Lobo

Voting with our feet (walking away to another group of believers) when individuals are directed by the Holy Spirit and transparency are great and right! However, the Kingdom of God is a monarchy (not a democracy) where true leaders are selected and appointed by God, yet the individual can also communicate directly with the Monarchy and know from the Monarch when leadership is not right. Accountability through full disclosure is a must though.

Stacey

One Of the best shows you've done

Andy Benfield

Great information, as Christians we have the responsibility to be transparent. So many Christian organizations have hurt so many people and that is scary. Our local church passes out a full financial statement to anyone who attends the church monthly, our organization does the same every year for the entire organization. It is also well published how every position in the organization is elected or appointed. It is not a perfect organization but it is transparent.

Kimmie

Don’t worry Shawn…. We all knew it was happening, but when we spoke up as single source, we were blocked. This is perfect to expose satan’s infiltration into God’s house… it was discussed in the Bible as we all know.

Dena

This interview with Nathan is excellent. I can see both sides of the conversation, I do agree with you that it is ok for a Pastor to receive a salary. When I received Christ, the Word of Faith movement was coming into prominence and there weren't many churches that preached it. My friends and I ended up driving to another state for a church, which we attended for over 20 years. In all that time, there was never any accountability about where the finances went. Tithing was preached every Sunday, and I could probably still go to any church and preach a good tithing message. LOL. I have always tithed just because I have wanted to, but I don't believe it is a requirement for going to heaven (which I remember one Pastor who preached that every one who didn't tithe would go to hell). After disillusionment set in, I stopped going to church but never stopped loving Jesus. For the last 10 years I have been going to a denominational church that I love. Once a year there is a business meeting where all finances that have come in are documented and accounted for in a report that is given to all members. The floor is open for any questions to be asked and all are answered. I appreciate and am grateful for the transparency. FYI- There is a podcast called The Naked Bible Podcast. Dr. Michael Heiser was a theologian who taught the bible strictly according to the text with no denominational slant. He always said that if a passage seems weird that means it’s important. I would highly recommend the podcast and the books “The Unseen Realm” and “Reversing Hermon”. Anyone who enjoyed your interview with Timothy Alberino would probably really like them. Thanks again for the great interview.

Luca Troiani

As a Christian who does go to a small church in Montana. I am OK with churches, but I agree there are a lot of mega churches and their outreach to the poor is pitiful. They spend millions on their buildings, coffee shops book store, their worship is like a rock concert. We had a missionary come home and spoke at our church he was renting a house and he said " we have houses for our cars that struck me. So many around the would would love to have a garage as nice as we have as a home. Christians need to learn how to serve. Yes we are not saved by works be but as the book of James says faith without works is dead. Read your bible everyday study God' word, and pray often for the unsaved because bottom line this life is short compared to eternity. Life is not easy we should die to ourselves daily and live like Jesus as best as we can. I fail everyday yet I try hard to not sin and repent for my sins.

Nate

Just remember, this guy directed a movie called "chicks dig gay guys."

Jared

Though he uses a lot of good examples of corrupt portions of Christianity and how it can be used falsely, I can’t help but see that he speaks from a perspective of resentment. Beware of wolf in sheep clothing. Something deep inside tells me that his views on the aspects of tithe, the commitment to community, and the body of Christ being the body - he speaks in a way that presents that he views these as restrictive to personal choice. I’d be cautious in listening to the face value->

Jared

of what he’s speaking. The community of Christians is the church. We are a body, we all play a part. The body loses functions without the hand, the foot, the head. Christian - a blood bought, blood stained disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. We individually are not the church. The church involves, by distinction, the community together. Sure we can experience church with others outside of a physical congregation building, but the way he explains it is very new age, ->

Jared

bordering the line. Again - he gives good examples of false teachers. But, there is an overarching theme which deep in my core tells me that he’s being guided out of a spirit of deceit and obscurity rather than the Holy Spirit and clarification to what’s of God. All I say is caution with his words - we should be clarifying everything we hear from anyone through the living Word of God and Holy Spirit, discerning what is of God and what is being twisted. Evil knows the word too.

Jared

Let me also clarify - the thought pattern of separation of church and state, is not of Yahweh. There is no good apart from God. The Word of God is the source of every bit of moral good. The Word of God governs all, and God specifically speaks to these topics that the “state” deems “political”, long before they ever deemed it so.

Mike G

“Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge? I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself. As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. Why? Because I do not love you? God knows! But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” ‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭11‬:‭7‬-‭15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

HooyahSnipe

the church I attend has quarterly business meetings where we get the balance sheet of what comes in, what goes out, and debt we have. It does not go into salaries by person but staffing costs are broken out as a total and clearly shown on the report. Not sure if this fitts the bill but seems to be better than what Nathan is talking about.

nobody1

Listen, this guy operates out of Park City, Utah. Home of Mormons and Scientology. Two conflicts of interest and invalidate a lot of his efforts.

Jared

The Bible is not a history book, and not to be read as one. It’s a book about your Father and who He is.

Jared

100% this guy is a wolf.

Kevin

I have a request for Shawn Ryan. I don't know if he sees this. But I wish he would have someone with a perspective to offset his view. Someone on the other side who knows biblical definitions of church and what church looks like in the Bible. I love the definition of church as the people not the building or structures. I grew up in the church and my pastors and the congregation did in regard to church teach me it's following Jesus and the church is people. They did such a great job that I've been a pastor for over 30 years now. I really enjoyed this episode, even though I disagree with the speaker. I have the same concerns about religion as business in American Society as well and how it impacts our Gospel witness. I've have concerns about most mega churches because there is a lot of false teachings and it's a show. But I do churches that were mega churches before the non denominational mega churches who were really faithful. I've not served in a mega church before but I've served in small, midsized, and large churches who are transparent and have accountability and are Jesus loving, following people. And he just seemed to cast a dark shadow on churches who really strive to be faithful. But I see a lot of what he is talking about and it concerns me. It makes me think about my own leadership and church so I can assess the danger to comprising. My goal is to be a faithful follower of Jesus until I die or He returns. I'm closer to one of those two options every day and I just want to run my race faithfully until I cross the finish line. A great guest for you as an offset is John Piper. I know John. I've seen how he pastors over the years. He really tried to live his faith and he has had a different approach to Desiring Ministries. I believe all the funds go back into the ministry. His home is not like Kenneth Copelands home. It's a regular family home. But I think he would give an in-depth perspective and balanced. He'd be honest I think

GJ

Interesting he praised the Catholic Convent in Mexico for providing structured support - I praised local Catholic, Methodist, and other churches in Houston for quickly organizing food drives/support following Hurricane Harvey and German Catholic Churches for acting as a spy network during WWII to work against Hitler - These institutions matter or they wouldn't be highly regulated in places like China, which essentially forces you to worship in your basement unless you follow the CCP guidelines.

Jennifer Heath

You can't serve God and Mammon. And so many Scriptures in the Holy Bible that totally buck against this prosperity preaching. They cater to Mammon not the true gospel to save the world like real people living hell right here on earth. We are to be salt and light but if not what are we good for! Read the Laodicia church (now) in Revelation. That is now. God bless you and your family always Shawn thank you for the show

Valkyrie

Very amazing show. I've heard of a church where the husband was a pastor and his wife owned a financial biz. Everything he said in this interview fits. One thing I have noticed is Churches OWN MOST hospitals in America yet they are run as For Profit. They are part of the problem with people unable to afford healthcare.

KimO2

As a Christian who went to Bible college, my husband and I were pastors and helped plant a church, there is so much trash from bad churches and bad people being applied to all churches and all pastors. The group of churches that I was part of had annual meetings where the p&l was entered into the meeting minutes and members could ask questions about EVERY line item including salaries. Churches that do tithe out of the tithes that come in. Churches where I have been part of events that served the community. When my husband passed and I became a single mom, I was loved on in our single moms ministry that served us, feed us, watched our kids, gave us free haircuts, mowed our lawn, gave us free oil changes. I served on multiple events that Convoy of Hope gave out food to families. I handed out groceries to hundreds of people. He’s investigating bad churches and that needs to happen but it can not be applied to all. Talk about the churches who do have the system of transparency. We are not all the same. I agree that churches can and do function more like a business than a ministry but it is not all of us. I was a pastor’s wife. I saw the inner circle and I sat in those leadership meetings where I had to account for money spent in children’s ministries which had a higher budget than any other ministry in the church. I believe in transparency and I believe there are churches that have it. Independent churches stand to take the most scrutiny unless they choose accountability.

Skyler Sirstins

This guest is just making stuff up left and right. SRS has some resources, you guys should fact check what he is saying and make some corrections especially regarding the LDS church.

3H Tree Service

Shawn... please don't be discouraged by this guy. SOME churches are very corrupt. Not all of them. We have a church of 100 people and we DO pay our pastors salary of 70k a year. He is the sole paid position. The Word is taught every service. Line upon line. No giving or tithe sermons unless it comes up in the text as we are reading through the Bible. Congregstions of people aren't always corrupt. We pray for you Shawn and for your faith. John Lovell...he's a pastor, at a church, in Rome GA. Pick his brain if you have questions. Love what you're doing. BTW...Iraqi freedom vet, twice over. God bless you.

Miles Gillette

I agree with Nathan that culture and corruption has created rot in Christianity. I applaud his efforts to expose that corruption. I love his mindset of his ministry being to raise his daughter on Christ centered principles. He has a lot going for him, and has every right to take issue with the abuse and mismanagement of tithes in churches; however he categorizes the LDS church alongside corrupt pastors simply because of its financial success or because it failed to properly disclose its entire portfolio - a mistake made by an employee of Ensign Peak and not intentionally by church leadership. The LDS church simply practices what it preaches, to be frugal and self-sufficient. His literal qualm with the LDS church is that it manages its member’s tithes so well that it has increased its assets. No Bishop (leader of a congregation) receives any income from their stewardship. Heck, I am a nursery teacher and my time and service is voluntary. The LDS Church is a lay ministry. Apostles and Seventy who travel the world fly on commercial airlines, they receive an estimated $25,000-$30,000 in parsonage allowances, maybe $10,000-$15,000 in vehicle allowances, in 2014 a memo stated that their salary was $120,000 / year. No doubt that is a lot, but when you understand that most of these men left careers making 3-10 times that to serve in their current assignment, that should provide context and perspective. No member gives their bank receipts to the church. That was a bold face lie. We have what is called a “tithing settlement” where we are given a receipt of all our tithes and donations made to the church and we get to decide / declare if that amount is a “full tithe.” Yes, paying a full tithe is prerequisite for a Temple Recommend. However, we don’t believe that a Temple Recommend is required to get to Heaven. While Temple Ordinances are necessary for exaltation, we trust in the Grace of Christ and we know that He will make everything right in the end. There is no exploitation of salvation as Nathan alleges. The LDS church handbook literally says the following in regard to providing aid from the Bishop’s Storehouse: “Church assistance is meant to sustain life —not to maintain lifestyle. Members may need support and empathy as they work to reduce or eliminate expenses. Bishops should exercise good judgment and seek spiritual direction when considering the amount and duration of the assistance given. They should be compassionate and generous while not creating dependence. … Persons who are not members of the Church are usually referred to local community resources for assistance… as guided by the Spirit, the bishop may assist them with fast offerings or bishops’ orders...” I’d like to see Nathan’s sources that the LDS church petitioned the IRS to adjust the tax law to include auxiliaries. I’ve never heard that before and I find that to be a fantastic claim. Just like how tithing wasn’t preached until the Civil War; a 10 minute Google search shows just how absurd that claim is. He also claims that not a single dollar from the LDS church’s funds have gone to humanitarian purposes. So I guess he never Google searched is because a 10 minute search will show that the church spent $1.45 billion in global humanitarian aid. Now why doesn’t the church spend more? It’s simple, it will not waste money on projects that are going to corruption. The church requires its members and leaders to be faithful stewards of the funds they are trusted with. Consequently, the church only gets involved in projects that will actually help those in need and not line the pockets of corrupt people in power. Having served a mission and seen the churches humanitarian side, one of the largest problems preventing the church from being able to do more is finding the right people to work with locally who will ensure that 100% of the resources go to the humanitarian project and not into people’s pocket. Had Nathan chose to sit down with any LDS Bishop, Stake President, or General Authority he could have had all this information provided to him.

Justin Larson

Imagine showing up to Bible study with that Bible!

Charlotte Weasea

Wow what an eye opener! Granted all are not like this but the ones that are need to be seriously looked at

Charlotte Weasea

The wheel that squeaks the loudest need greasing

Justin Larson

I can see many of his points. I’ve also seen churches do many good things for people that are lost and broken, and those lost and broken people have returned the favor later on in life. This guy just has me torn..

Memoir100

I'm an atheist but I see the ten commanments as a social construct to build the basis for a cohesive society. If you think about it,Do not steal,lie, covet, murder are all rules to create a complex peaceful society and the first two promote unity of thought, so everybody knows the rules.punishment,day of restroom labor.

Jeremy J. Lanning

Shawn. The Church Christ founded is calling you brother. Just be curious about the Catholic Church.