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Season 2, Ep 18 (Patreon)

Published:
2021-09-28 14:12:38
Edited:
2023-07-01 15:39:33
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

umm are we sure this episode isn't titled "nightmares"? 😳😳 

Files

Buffy Season 2, Ep 18 - Killed By Death

Vidyard video

Comments

TheLoungingPotato

The fact that this episode came after "Passion" is really didn't do it any favors and honestly what kind of puts it on the lower end of the season for me. It kind of ruins the pace of what we left off with. Honestly, this could have done better had the two episodes switched places in terms of episodic order Also, I fucking cackled for a hot minute at your Nickelback edit. That was absolutely hilarious

Denni Caid

This has to be the most entertaining reaction to this episode I've ever seen. Totally worth the Patreon sub <3

Tim Pierce

I'm sure the name Rupert went over better than Spike would have. Yes, the child's name from the Nightmares episode was William B Robert. I was going to say, Chad Kroeger is 100x scarier than Freddy Krueger. Couple other notes, wouldn't Buffy have to inject the sickness instead of just drinking it? And what did they do with the body of Der Kinderstod? Is some random janitor gonna trip over an invisible body? And according to the flashbacks, Buffy is not a natural blonde.

Juan Sanchez

That white Slayer privilege I would have never been taken cared for that fast walking in ER right away by doctors at the front door lol I went in five years ago with torn skin on head bleeding and I still had to check in and wait until the receptionist saw I was falling asleep from losing blood then the doctors saw me, granted no lie it was two hot women doctors that looked like Rachel green and Monica geller lol got four staples on my head not stitches, staples. So yeah white Slayer privilege lol

ghostofdurruti

CHAD KROEGER omg I'm dying Not the best episode of the season (and Passion is definitely a tough act to follow), but it does stand out in that it has one of the creepiest monsters we've seen so far. There are also a lot of cute/funny moments ("Chocolate means nothing to me!", "Tact is just not saying true stuff! I'll pass," "Boy, there's a demon for everything..."), and the whole final scene is just adorable. And while it doesn't comment explicitly on how everyone is handling the aftermath of Jenny's death very much apart from a few scenes with Giles, that is sort of a running theme in the background of the episode (e.g. it's implied that the guilt and grief that she's dealing with is what left Buffy vulnerable to getting sick--something that her Slayer healing would normally protect her from--in the first place). I will say that I think this would have been a more effective follow-up to Passion if the theory Giles and Cordy bring up that maybe Buffy is subconsciously "inventing" an enemy that she can pummel to cope with Jenny's death had turned out to be true. That would have been tricky to write, though. We're getting down to the wire now! Only a couple of episodes to go before the finale...

L R

Jessica Roth

Ah, much better when Patreon's working! Although I actually saw this because I was on the 2.17 page and checked "recent posts", remembering last week. (Mild technical problem; the sound-synch was off again, audio about 1/2 sec ahead of video.) Hilarious all the way through. When you said "Kroger", I thought you were going for the supermarket conglomerate (mmm Graeter's Ice Cream…) but then you did Chad/Nickelback and I almost died. (Loverboy, Nickelback, Justin Bieber…y'all up there have a LOT to answer for, I'm just saying. And yes, the Guess Who/Neil Young/Gordon Lightfoot/Alanis and even Avril had that one killer CD…but still…) DARCIE: I hope it's a happy creature episode. ME: Dead kids, dead kids, dead kids. And also, really creepy. Yoicks. Absolutely BLASTED at the time and for years afterwards. People would call it "worst episode ever", which is IMO ridiculous. But we'll discuss that later.

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

I haven't watched yet, but I just want to say I MASSIVELY appreciate Jenny still being there with Rupe in the picture and the subtle shade to black and white 🥺 OK, off to watch :)

Melissa

Okay, the Nickelback as the monster is the greatest thing ever. I will never again think of Der Kindestod as anything else. Brilliant! Love. I'm kind of glad we're through this episode, I was dreading it for you almost as much as Cal's death. He's beyond scary, but maybe again if we just think of him as Chad Kroeger he isn't lol. (By the way, you were thinking of Freddy Kruger) Also, the placement of this ep really does kind of mess with the flow. Random thoughts: 1) The child who played Celia was an excellent actor. 2) Loved every single outfit Cordelia had on. 3) I thought it was very sweet of her to bring Xander coffee and donuts after he kind of yet again blew her off. 4) Loved the callback to frogs with Willow. She has frog fear, remember? 5) RIP, Willie Garson who played the security guard and is best known for playing Stanford Blatch on Sex and the City. Only 4 more episodes of this season! And one is a two-parter, yay! It's gone by so fast. Great reaction as usual, Darcie. xo I might go listen to some Nickelback now, ahem.

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

Knew you'd love this one lol I know it's not the greatest, and the plot is kinda dumb because you can't just walk around hospitals at night breaking into offices willy nilly, and viruses don't work that fast etc etc And, yes, it's odd that Cal is only mentioned twice and largely just in passing. At first it seems strange that they focus on Buffy's reaction and pay almost no attention to Giles' but I suppose it IS called BUFFY the vampire slayer lol but also, I don't think that Giles would discuss it with them and I don't think they'd know how to bring it up with him. Despite all this there are some great moments, particularly Cordy, and Xander standing up to Angel. I also think that ASH is doing an amazing job of quietly portraying a man who is just trying to hold it together. He stands and sits differently than before, he speaks slowly and quietly (more quietly than normal lol) and he keeps pausing in the middle of a sentence or not catching the beginnings of conversations as if his mind is elsewhere. Given almost nothing to work on I think he did a great job :) I also like the implication (IMO) that the kids aren't leaving him on his own if they can help it. Whenever we see him they are there even to the point of Cordy going to help him research. I like that as soon as it's obvious that Giles is going to the library on his own Xander immediately says Cordy should go with him. I also think there's a slight nod from Cordy when he says this, as if they've decided they'd better tag team him when possible. It's all subtext and non verbal acting but I LIKE IT :D I LOVE the Nickleback confusion, absolutely epic :DDD Canada's greatest, and scariest, export ;)

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

Also, I forgot to mention this on Passion, but I thought I'd put it here because I don't know how much you go back to look at comments. There's a tiny moment cut out of the shooting script that I SO wish they had kept in. When Buffy, Xander, and Willow see Cal coming into work and Willow wanders off saying '5 hours of lesson planning down the drain...' Buffy was supposed to look up and see Giles standing on the upper balcony. The script actually says, and I quote, 'he is watching Ms Calendar with PALPABLE LONGING'!!!!! 😭He then notices Buffy has seen him, looks embarrassed, and disappears. However, it makes even MORE sense that it is THEN that Buffy decides to go and talk to Cal. And OK, Buffy can't forgive her but she can see how much Rupe is missing her. I SO wish I could have seen that DAMMIT!!!!!!

Jessica Roth

Speaking of "things we forgot to mention last episode" ^, let me get that danged "foreshadowing" post out of the way before moving on. In reverse order: 2.10-Well, now you know why I'm REALLY so ticked at Rupe for being all "no, no, [Angel's] good now" and just brushing the issue off when Kendra (IMO rightly) says "Angel? You mean Angelus? I've read about him. He is a MONSTER." Yes, he certainly is. Might have done some better research on him, "Watcher". Too late now, of course, but I'm still bitter. (I forgive Cordelia the "Angel is a good vampire. He would never hurt you. He's our friend" in 2.06 that I spoke of, because she thinks she's lying, and anyway, this isn't HER job. But Giles…oy…) 2.09-Buffy kisses Angel with his vampire face on (possibly standing in a pool of blood, if they'd shot the script as Marti Noxon intended), telling him she doesn't even notice, that she's not afraid of the demon inside of him, that she loves and accepts him despite it, that he can finally find acceptance and peace. A lovely sentiment, but now we can see that it didn't work out so well, that whole "she made me feel like a real human being" deal that the demon rather resents. Oh, and then Angel goes and tells Willy how he used to kill humans. Which is probably a good reason not to let go of your guilt so fast. 2.08-As RJ wrote, Angel's demon saves Jenny by choking her, which has a whole other aspect, considering what's happened since. And while neither Giles nor Jenny remembers to thank Angel as they head off, I could see Angel's invite to Rupe's place happening as a result of this. Perhaps it was a dinner for four, Rupe and Cal and Buffy and Angel. Awkward as anything, I'd bet, but it might have happened. 2.07-This episode is loaded with foreshadowing (including something I still can't discuss, as yet). From Drusilla telling Angel "this is just the beginning" (and look how far we've come since then) to Angel specifying the invitation rules, both before Willow asks him in and in the later "I was just being polite" convo with Buffy. (You did a good job remembering about Angel being in Willow's room, Darcie…with many reactors it's a sudden shock of realization.) Joss plants those bombs, knowing they'll go off ten episodes down the road. The question is, does Giles telling Buffy "No one ever dies" also count as such. I mean, yes it's explicitly a LIE, and yes Buffy ASKED for it…but you say something such as that in Sunnydale, you're almost begging for the Hellmouth to pop up and go "oh, YEAH?" at you. Did Rupe effectively sign Jenny's death warrant then? I don't know. All I know is that 2.07 is the final episode Jenny makes it through without some sort of trauma. Oh, for the happy days of monster trucks…

Jessica Roth

As to why this episode got slagged on, it was a few reasons: • It's less intense than "Passion" and feels a bit awkward in the storyline • There was a two-month break in airing after this, and fans resented going into an "eternity" of waiting off of this sort of episode • Too much a "rip-off" of Freddy Krueger, some felt. I think the last objection is silly; the show had already done witches and dummies and Frankenstein and mummies and parasites and werewolves…what, Freddy *doesn't* belong in that Pantheon, doesn't deserve a "homage" of his own? I strongly disagree. Yes, it's nice to have completely original creatures, like giant bugs and hyenas and demon rhinos ("I'm a RAM, dammit!"), but I hardly mind the classics, either. JMO. The scheduling was a bit unfortunate, but I can't hold it against the episode itself. As to how the ep came to be… …well, that's another story. [/tease]

Jordan Haddow

Well, this is a fun creepy little episode. It's kind of fun because we get a unique perspective on Buffy. How many times do we get to see her totally powerless and defenseless? The team sure got into action and stuck with her, even Cordy. In some ways, I think this was kind of Cordy's episode. There was a lot of focus on her, her feelings for Xander, and even the teams acceptance of her as one fo them. How many times was Cordy being her usual self and the team members did a little look that acknowledged her abrasiveness but ultimately let it slide because she was one of them. I also like how Xander and her have settled into the light bickering of a couple, not the passionate yelling we were used to when they first started their little relationship. One thing though, I have to say I really didn't care for one scene. When Cordy dropped the bag of doughnuts and sat down. If you go back and watch it, the camera was situated basically at the base of her miniskirt as she bent forward to place the coffees down. All I could think for that scene would be how awkward for Charisma to stand with a giant camera looking looking straight at the base of her skirt while bending over. The shot was too low to see anything, still seems super awkward to me. Also, a number of people balk at this episode following Passion. It doesn't surprise me. I tend to think of the episode after a very emotional one as a pallet cleanser. It's meant to change our thoughts away from the trauma. Also, this episode was playing off the idea that Jenny's death had such an impact on Buffy that it weakened her to the point where her inbuilt slayer immunity couldn't even keep her from getting sick. Beyond that, I kind of think that her getting sick was also part of her powers to sense dangerous beings around her. She gets dreams and various feelings, like in Ted, that help her focus in on hidden dangers. I think they may have used that a bit in the idea of making her sick. The enemy was so hidden, that she needed to get sick to even notice it. Having been so close to it as a child may have strengthened that sense for this creature as well. All speculative nonsense really, but it lends to the whole back story of her being their when the creature killed her cousin. One last thing. I think the lack of mention of Jenny's death was intentional. After a death, especially of someone so close, people tend to focus on it to the point of exclusion of the world around them. I think they had Buffy placed in an emergency, something everyone could use as an excuse to focus on something other than Jenny, specifically to minimize bringing her death up. A kind of light denial by everyone to just get a bit of a breather from the grief.

David Meadows

You should have put a trigger warning at the start of this. I was watching it over lunch and seriously choked on my cheese sandwich at "Chad Kroger" :P

Jessica Roth

So, here’s why the episode doesn’t quite fit in with the flow…it’s only partly a new episode. The script is credited to Dean Batali and Rob DesHotel (last script was “Phases”), but they weren’t even with the show any longer at this point. In planning ahead for Season 3, Joss was looking to revamp the writing staff, and he’d given Rob & Dean their notices, so that they could look for new jobs during pilot season, which is traditionally the first few months of the year. (Indeed, one of them already had a new job by this time, as I understand it.) The problem was that Joss was running out of writers; Carl Ellsworth (“Halloween”) had wanted to do more work, but Something Happened. (There’s an interview with Ellsworth out there that I need to read, but I haven’t yet.) So basically the staff was just Joss and David Greenwalt and Marti Noxon at this point. And Greenie was handling the production end (during the year, you can put production issues off if need be, but when you start running up against the finale date, you lose that option) and Marti had writer credit on 5 of the previous 8 episodes (from 2.09 to 2.16) and even she can’t write EVERYTHING. So Joss called his old boss, Ty King, to help out with “Passion” and he dug out an old Season 1 script from Rob & Dean that hadn’t been produced in order to cover a spot. Originally, this was intended for late Season 1, after Buffy finds out that Angel is a vampire. She collapses on patrol, Angel takes her to the hospital…and then isn’t seen again until the tag, since David isn’t yet a regular and we don’t need to give him so much to do. (Angel can’t control himself around all that blood, that’s his excuse for not sticking around.) The gang comes to visit (nobody has any real idea why Cordelia is there, since she’s not in the group yet, but CC DOES have a contract, so…), Buffy investigates the deaths, finds the unlikely suspect and solves the mystery, the end. Between this and Rob & Dean’s other late-season submission (“The Puppet Show”), Joss felt that the dummy story had more potential, and stuck this in a drawer. But, as you note, he did take elements (the Ugly Man, the small boy as information source, the hospital) and build out into the wider story treatment that he gave to Greenwalt to write “Nightmares”, on which Joss got “Story” credit. Now, should Rob & Dean also have gotten story credit for “Nightmares”, then? Possibly, but NOBODY likes going to the arbitration panel of the Writer’s Guild, because you have to go through the script line-by-line, all “I wrote this, but I didn’t write that” so they can total things up and make their decision. (Joss had tried to take credit for “Witch” away from Dana Reston, because he and Greenwalt had come up with the body-switch plot twist together and he felt it was a bonding experience for the two of them, but he lost.) I don’t know this, but I’m guessing that Joss struck a deal; Batali and DesHotel didn’t get any credit on “Nightmares”, but they did get full and sole credit for “The Puppet Show”, even though Joss had also rewritten that one. (The original script is out there, and Alyson Hannigan gave an interview where she talked about Joss taking time from rewriting 1.09 in his office to come down to the set and help her with her performance in 1.08.) So presumably everyone was happy, and Joss had the bare bones of “Buffy vs. Freddy in the hospital” to use when he needed it. And now he needed it.

Jessica Roth

DARCIE (as Willow tells Cordelia to call Joyce): Think of a good lie. ME: It’s Joyce; how good does the lie need to be, honestly? One reactor bitterly noted that Giles got to the hospital before Joyce, but maybe that just means Cordelia had trouble explaining things. Or that the gallery is REALLY busy these days. (After all, apparently Joyce was working so late in “Innocence” that she wasn’t home to see Buffy crying herself to sleep.) So, WHAT IS “that thing” on Buffy’s face? (It took me three tries to get it, but once you see it, you can’t not notice it. Cheeky of them to tweak their star that way.) Yes, Cynthia Bergstrom is at the top of her costume game with those sweaters and Cordy’s outfits, but let’s also give a shout-out to Buffy’s hospital wear; the wife-beater with the little picture and those lovely sleep pants with the great texture. Love it. And let’s not forget Lisa Rosenberg and the hair team…Willow’s locks look lovely. (And also Cordelia’s hair, but that usually looks great.)

Jessica Roth

Patreon ate my post again! But I was too clever, hah! This should go right after the post about which writers get what credit: ******************************************* So what’s new? The Angel scenes, the Cordy scenes, the references to Jenny, and Willow’s frog fear. Plus a general polish. (I do wish we could get one more Angel scene, keep him a consistent menace throughout. Maybe something such as this: Buffy is hurrying to reach the kids. Suddenly the lights go out. Angel stands in front of her, vampire face on, smirking. ANGEL: Hello, Lover. Buffy kicks him hard and fast in the shin, Angel goes down. Buffy resumes heading towards the kids, focused on the task at hand. Angel rises to a knee, looks after her. ANGEL (confused): Something I said? Maybe not quite that flip, but you get the idea.) Going against the grain (as he often did) a prominent contemporary fan reviewer, David Hines, expressed his appreciation for the episode by saying “Every character gets a page”. And he’s right: it’s a strong episode for the whole gang. Willow saves Buffy’s life (twice), gets Giles to start investigating despite his…mood (with “but on the ‘we live on a Hellmouth’ side of things” fitting in nicely with “Reptile Boy” and “this being Sunnydale and all…”, which was also from a Willow/Giles scene), gives us adorable moments with the homework and pushing the chair and playing Doctor the wrong way, and totally rocks her feigned frog-fear in the crisis, ending with that excellent “no more frogs…” Xander stands up to Angel twice, both physically and in the test of wills that is the “White Knight” scene. He makes another film reference, citing the chess scene from “The Seventh Seal” (which is a RATHER different movie from “Faster, Pussycat…Kill, Kill!”, although some say “Pussycat” is inspired by a different Bergman film, “The Virgin Spring”) and takes charge of the group, getting a whimpering Giles to accept Cordelia’s help. He also listens when Cordelia complains about his ignoring her, albeit in a snarky way, “checking out her back” as she heads off. And he’s there helping Buffy at the end, getting the kids to safety. Cordy fights off Angel, works as part of the team, talks her way out of a tight spot with Sexy Guard Don, and demands respect and gets it (however reluctantly) from both Xander and Giles. And she finds the monster, so go Research Cordy! (Also, getting those Krispy Kremes took effort; in 1998, they were still pretty much a Southern thing. There were like two places in all of LA where you could buy them. Quality snack delivery on Cordelia’s part.) And Buffy… Buffy, Buffy. Running herself ragged out of guilt, but never shirking her responsibilities. Declaring herself a “hero” as she tries to fulfill the role she must have known she was born for, even in the “Power Girl” days. The difference is, now she knows she WON’T save everybody. She feels every failure (it took her TWO Inspiring Speeches to deal with Theresa’s death, you’ll recall) and yet she keeps trying, being there for Ryan and co. as she wasn’t able to be there for Celia. Aww. (And Rupe is understandably off of his game, but that’s characterization, as well. Although Buffy clearly wasn’t thrilled with his thinking Ryan’s drawing was her work, lol.) *****************************

Steveo

Ok I was legit crying laughing at the Chad Kroger look up to see he was Nickelbacks singer 😂😂😂 One nitpick, I noticed the audio seemed a bit out of sync this episode 😔

cruzinbosco

After re-subscribing on the 1st, I am now completely caught up. I hadn't planned to binge them all so quickly, but you just make every episode, even the ones I normally skip, so great. I am so freaking excited about all that's to come for you with this show. The end of season 2 is amazing and season 3 is easily my favorite season. I am so sorry you've experienced your first BTVS heartache. I wish I could make you feel better but this show will rip your heart out, but at least it always makes you laugh along the way. There's a reason we fans always come back. ;) I realize I am not even commenting about this actual episode, but I don't care much about this episode. :) It also makes me sad seeing Willie Garson in here. I adored him and he just passed away. Such a sweet, caring man. Little Buffy is not blonde because Buffy is a natural brunette, just like SMG. Anyway, I am sooo happy to be back on the Darcie train!! I'm never leaving again! <3

Cool Engines

Chad Kroger! putting fear in peoples hearts since 1984 . LMAO oh Darcie we love you. :)

Teresa Schultz

This episode gets a lot of hate, but it goes to show that even the lesser liked episodes of Buffy always have something worth watching. Some of my favorite moments are: In the beginning scene, Xander’s “Take a walk, Overbite” to Angelus. The hospital confrontation between them is also good. I love the conversation outside: Giles: “Cordelia, have you actually ever heard of tact?” Cordelia: “Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.” And then later when Xander suggests Cordelia help Giles with research: Giles, “Why do I have to have... Uh, good thinking.” Cordelia: (to Giles) “Let's go, tact-guy.” The library scene between Giles and Cordelia with the demons. Pretty much love Cordelia in this whole episode. Willow’s frog fear… Also, the actress that plays Celia is amazing. The last thing I like about this episode is that we learn that Buffy’s emotions are somewhat tied to her slayer power. She never gets sick because of her slayer healing. But she’s felt so much grief and guilt at the loss of Jenny that she caught the flu and got sick enough to have to be hospitalized. While this may not be a favorite episode, watching it with you makes it 100 times better!!

Shelby

Wow...here I am commenting again on a post that is so old but it is what it is....I thought I was the only one who had that obscure pet peeve of coffee cups in shows and movies. It bugs the HELL OUT OF ME. Particularly when the cup is CLEARLY empty. The way people hold an empty cup vs a full cup is different and it's easily spotted (at least to me); and so when I can clearly see the cup is empty and then the scene even has the audacity to make the actor mime drinking coffee out of the cup??...it's painful. And also what you said about tilting the cup all the way back when they supposedly just got a fresh cup of coffee?? Irrational anger lol Anyways...