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Study 157 - Nine Lives (Patreon)

Published:
2026-02-12 20:01:18
Edited:
2026-02-12 20:01:36
Imported:
2026-02
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Content

Identity, connection, and clone sex collide in Ursula K. Le Guin's science fiction masterpiece Nine Lives!

Special thanks to our reader: Maeve Sawyer!

Next up: The Strange Case of Sir Arthur Carmichael by Agatha Christie and an extra credit episode years in the making -- NightMan: Manimal!

Comments

Newk

Omg I'm a favorite patron of Chad's?!! I thought I may have been a nuisance or at least made his eyes sting. That just made like my entire year I feel so good about myself right now. For real though thank you

Science Doctor, PhD

I have to say (I mean, I guess, I don't "have" to, but here we are) that this is why I love this podcast. I love this author, but this story just did not click with me at all. I thought the themes were fascinating, but the "story" got in the way. I just didn't care about what was going on, and found myself forcing myself to read as things went along. But, listening to it through this lens really helps me appreciate the concepts. It's one of those stories I found a lot more interesting to talk, and think, about, than to actually read. I find this happens to me in real life all the time, where something I read/watched that I didn't so much get into becomes more engaging as I talk about it to people around me. Speaking of, I'm pretty sure my wife considers the subscription fee to be a small price to pay for me to have an outlet for that that isn't constantly giving her mini book reports all the time...

Brian J

This story was new to me, but I had to seek it out and read it to see if it would have the same effect on me as listening to the summary and snippets did. I have a bad habit of reading too fast and missing important nuances, so I'm glad that I had the podcast listening experience to give me a special heads-up to not do that with this one. All this to say, when I was listening, and I heard the segment between "Do you love Martin?" and "What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" I genuinely broke into tears. And I'm choking up responding here. While searching for the text, I saw a lot of reviews that seemed to focus on the superficial themes of the story: the self, cloning, ethics, etc.; and I appreciate the angle that you guys took in your own discussion, about the need for patience, compassion and active bridging of understanding gaps between people. But to me, that simple line: "What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" is not only the most important theme of the story, but quite possibly the literal meaning of life. I gasped and sobbed like I'd been punched in the stomach. The inhumanity and cruelty the world is not only capable of, but actively pursuing, frequently leaves me in a state of numb anguish - like Kaph listening to his wordless electronic tapes. And so, to use another analogy from the story, such a simple, direct statement of compassion and humanity hits me like a Lazarus Jab, although instead of giving me oxygen, it's literally taken my breath away. Wow. Thank you for sharing this.

Science Doctor, PhD

I have thought a lot about the topic of how to address people who have yet to change (or who have changed, but slowly). It's tricky; on one hand, I feel like you two, that if we don't give people the chance, or reward them when they make small steps forward (even if they have long to go) then we cannot reasonably expect them to keep it up. On the other hand... I respect people, particularly people who are harmed by that behavior, for feeling like they are expected to give these people a million chances lest they "do more harm than good." I'm a nurse; these days I teach, but in the recent past I worked in community/public health. Now, I don't know if people outside of healthcare have noticed, but there is something of a crisis in that area of healthcare, as well as this crazy pandemic that we had that is definitely completely over for certain. During that event, and now really, it's quite hard to keep moving forward with reaching out to patients, or even colleagues (or these days students) who have very outdated or frustrating viewpoints. I've had more than a few friends in this field tell me that they feel like their empathy is tapped out, that they just cannot bring themselves to "care" about people who behave in this way anymore. I have complicated thoughts about this that don't lend themselves well to a Patreon post. But what stood out to me from your conversation is the reality that if people are going to change in response to external stimuli, it's almost always going to be from a friend or family member, and your thoughts about why that kind of change works, and in fact helps strengthen the friendship, really illustrated (probably) why that is. Anyway, this got into a ramble, a lot of strong feelings... And at least a little bit of a desire to not research while also technically doing something vaguely within my wheelhouse... Let's bill it as community outreach.

It's a Ghost.

I loved this story! And for those who also loved this story, I highly recommend Ursula K. Le Guin's novel "The Left Hand of Darkness," which also addresses themes related to gender, sexuality, relationships, and simply being human. I find it amazing how in both this story and "The Left Hand of Darkness" she is able to create science fiction worlds that feels so real and genuine while the stories are ultimately focused on deeply intimate and meaningful messages about relationships and being human.

Richard Horsman

In that intro Chris mentions Le Guin also talks about how this is her most “hard core, wiring-diagram” science fiction story. By which she meant the one most extrapolated from current science. It was fascinating to read it with that lens, because I could see what the flat pulpy version of the story would be like. I’ve read a whole library full of them, as I suspect many other listeners have. But Le Guin couldn’t take the easy way out. She had to make it beautiful, and incisive, and genuinely witty. The next time someone asks me why style is so important in writing, I’m going to hand them this story. The simple what-if version of this story would’ve been interesting, but also would’ve left my brain minutes after reading it. But I’ll be thinking about “Nine Lives” for a long time.

Michael Moon

The British show Red Dwarf mined many great ideas including this one where Rimmer crashed on a planet and cloned himself. He says In just six days I had created my own world, lush and verdant. I had created ‘Rimmerworld’. I was Adam, in my own Eden, and only one thing was missing, my own Jane. As I studied the pod's textbooks, my excitement grew. It seemed entirely possible for me to create a fully-grown female clone, using my own DNA as a template. This of course created the most enormous moral dilemma. Technically, she would be my sister, and therefore unable to take me as her lover. After much soul searching, I reluctantly decided, "What the hell", I just wouldn't tell her.

Forrest Rush

Beautiful discussion guys. You always do a great job, but this one was just 5 stars across the board. The reader, your insights really brought this story back and it's been far too many years to count since I last read it. Well done. You don't need a degree in literary critcism to understand it's a story about identity and self, but I think it goes without saying that for any queer person reading it way back then, and probably today, it also felt very relevant in terms of being closeted or isolated and trying to understand how to transcend that. At least it did for me. The sex in the story is just background, so even though only male-female pairings are referenced, it doesn't really matter to the greater journey that Kaph ultimately is shown to be own. And that last line. Just wow. I can clearly remember teenaged me reading that and just being floored.

KateSherrod

There's a famous bit in LeGuin's *The Lathe of Heaven* that I'll never forget and it could have come from "Nine Lives" too: "Love doesn't just sit there, like a stone, it has to be made, like bread; remade all the time, made new." It's a terrific reminder not to take each other and our relationships to each other for granted. LeGuin wasn't raised by anthropologists for nothing; she got people. And, I think, loved us. Beautiful episode, horror daddies 😘

Jack Saul

A really great episode.This, like so many things nowadays, got me thinking about AI. The AI companions are, in a way, a kind of clone, in as much as they are trained to reflect your own desires and interests back to you, whereas, as was said on the podcast, human relationships require you adapt for other people. I saw the clones' relationships as efficient but also stunted in a way, compared to the complexity of the men's relationship where they have to think about and process the idea that they love each other in a way that is complex and uncomfortable but richer.

Richard Upton Sinclair Lewis Pickman

Is this The Fast and the Furious 39? Because even when it’s your own clones, it’s all about family. For some reason, perhaps only explained by my own brain, when clones come up I always flash back to Archer. “Is it murder if it your own clones? No, I’m seriously asking.” But there is nothing sci-fi about the group dynamics explored here. The near impossibility of breaking through in-group/out-group dynamics from the outside, and the trauma inherent in being suddenly divorced from a very insular community. This can, of course, be anything from a family group, close-knit friend group, to a religious community (dare I say, cult?). The resolution comes from a former member of an extreme example of an insular community accepting the possibility of what we would now call a found family, and a completely different concept of identity by extrication from that community. There’s a parallel to those who have left religion or former cult members, as well. The somewhat uninteresting plot here certainly takes a back seat to the over-arching concepts, which may alienate some readers, but I think it speaks to the maturity of Le Guin as a writer, and is largely what sets her apart and solidifies her place among the sci-fi and speculative fiction greats. I think it’s one of the best things about good sci-fi.

Prince Prawn

Your speakings are kind. Speak sweatly so our knees and calves may be relieved. We hope you enjoy a good song and a long warm sleep. Much love Prince Prawn

Jim Cannon

Brings new meaning to the phrase "Go f--- yourself"

Jim Cannon

I don't know what it is about ... oh, let's just say the "current moment" ... that makes me so emotional about these sorts of things, but the very notion of a hand extended in the dark or that the idea of following protocol and NOT helping Martin simply did not occur to Pugh but dang, my friends and neighbors, this one got me. Like, tearing up in the car got to me. There are reasons why Le Guin is one of the all time greats and I think this story is just one of them.

Dyche Mullins

Chad's riff (at 8:58) on how he might be "a little into" having sex with a clone of himself, but wouldn't want to hear himself talk made me actually laugh out loud. I realized in that moment how rarely I laugh out loud these days, what with one thing and another going on in the world right now. Thank you for that. It also makes me wonder whether clone phone sex would be Chad's version of hell.

Pete Williams

I wonder if the choice of nationalities, Argentine and British, was a reference to the the tense international relations between the UK and Argentina over the Falkland islands. A quick look on Wikipedia shows that there were ongoing discussions about the islands' sovereignty when this was written, obviously they broke down badly as the two nations went to war for a couple of months over the dispute in 82.

Giselle Wampler (GisyAngel)

Hearing Chad say his parents apologized and that’s how respect is learned hit me pretty hard today. I don’t normally complain lots about my childhood because it was pretty great, except I had a complicated relationship with my stepdad. It’s hard to explain but listening to this… I realized that it was that he never apologized. He would act like a tyrant in the house, and when I’d complain, or confront him, he’d scream and double down, mom would intervene and ask me to go to my room to keep the peace. Later, if it felt “safe” I’d be able to leave my room and rejoin the family. He’d allow it, acting like nothing happened. Never apologize. I didn’t realize how unsafe I felt until I left home and had my own place. He is an old man now, stubbornly refusing hospice, and not doing well. I have forgiven him in every way that matters, but I have to try so hard to not feel scared or angry when he is around. Anyway. Good job guys, your show still my safe place.

Ethan Cordray

LeGuin is great as always, but I don't think I can buy the central conceit of the story: that all the clones would naturally have a relationship that's different from normal human relationships. I don't think that their biological similarity would prevent them from diverging in personhood. Yes they all had the same starting point and a lot of common childhood experiences, but on a daily basis, each person's individual experiences, both cognitive and emotional, would move them in different directions away from their common origin, just like any other set of people. I don't have a twin, but I do have two siblings close to me in age, and each of us has become wildly different people over time. And I've known identical twins who have completely different personalities and attitudes from each other. I think the story overestimates the role of biology in personality and behavior, and essentially denies the individual agency of the clone people. This doesn't really weaken the essential theme of the story, though. It's still a beautiful meditation on reaching out to others and finding connection.

Casey

Great episode. A favorite author for sure. Maeve’s reading was superb.