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Extra Credit 002 - Alice in Wonderland (Patreon)

Published:
2022-08-30 14:00:10
Edited:
2024-09-20 23:36:32
Imported:
2026-06
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This month we're doing a quick overview of the 1951 Disney film, the books it's based on, many of the other adaptations as well Lewis Carroll's dodgy reputation!

Next month: Leaf by Niggle from J.R.R. Tolkien!

Comments

Pam Winkler

I have heard some stories that Charles Dodgson was sexually abused as a youth, which may have contributed to the issues with kids.

Iain Hood

You guys might want to check out Joe R Lansdale's The White Rabbit. Mr. Lansdale is still alive so you probably wouldn't want to cover it for the show but its a really great little weird tale.

Ben A

I agree with you both, Alice in Wonderland has had tremendous cultural cache. There truly is so much down the rabbit hole with respect to the impacts of Alice in Wonderland & Through the Looking Glass. If you ever want to see some bizarre Alice-related artwork (and tenuously tying in with Aldous Huxley's psychedelics), check out Ralph Steadman's gonzo art depictions of scenes from the books. Also, there are numerous non-Alice films and shows that derived overt ideas or inspiration from the books, like Gilliam's Jabberwocky, the Black Mirror Bandersnatch interactive episode, and, of course, the Matrix. There was even that episode of Carl Sagan's Cosmos I remember that references the Mad Hatter. But Chris, how did you not mention the TOS episode Shore Leave? That one may be the one of the most overt of the lot.

Hailey Buhler

So Disney actually did do an animated version of the Gryphon and Mock Turtle hanging out with Alice--but for a commerical for Jello xD Pretty sure its up in Youtube if you wanted to check it out!

Evan

I really felt the Sandman discussion. I will say that I am absolutely blown away by the adaptation, it’s better than I ever thought it would be and I am so happy with it and think it’s wonderful. All that being said, the graphic novel is definitely the ultimate form of that story. I’m not ALWAYS a “The book was better” guy (though it’s often true, so I often am), but it definitely applies in this case. I feel like there’s something almost more visceral about the panels, an instant being captured on the page in front of you as opposed to playing out on a screen in ‘real-time’. The expressions, the backgrounds etc. All that being said, I’m still recommending the series to everyone I know because good god do I want them to make a season 2.

Erik Gordon

I think the story is a bit like puberty. That time in life where you don't think you should be playing with GI Joe's but you really want to. Things are too small for you as a teen but the world is too big. Your body is changing. No one makes any sense. Then you grow up and try to get all of that back and don't give a shoggoths patooty.

Shay Fargel

This book has always been nothing but horror to me. It gave me nightmares as a child, and I'm 36 years old and still won't so much as pick up a copy of it.

Mooncubus

I've always loved these two books and the many adaptations. I've always felt a kinship with Alice because we share the birthday May 4th, which is also when the story takes place. One of my favorite adaptations is the video game American McGee's Alice and the sequel Alice Madness Returns. It's a platformer and a very weird creepy take on the story. I definitely agree though that there just is nothing quite as good as the original stories. I think the fact that there are so many different adaptations and just how much influence it has had on media throughout the years, is just a testament to how wonderful these stories really are. I definitely recommend you continue reading them. The second book especially gets really wild.

Richard Horsman

Loved this. It gave me a hankering to re-watch that weird stop motion Alice that Jan Svankmajer made. It did not disappoint. Svankmajer’s version is idiosyncratic —there’s lots of skulls, animated cow tongues, and so on— but it’s also weirdly faithful. You’d like it: not quite as extreme as Mad God but in the same neighborhood.

Abandon Quest

MY BROTHERS UNDER DAGON I gotta be honest: waiting for you guys to bring up his pedophilia had me on the edge of my seat! I mean no disrespect (you are my lord and saviors I cannot stress this enough) but it's a bit like writing a Lovecraft biography and making his racism a footnote! You say it yourself later in the episode, this quality (being literally in love with an 11-year-old girl named Alice) informed the writing of Alice in Wonderland, and I think that's some important context to lay out before, for example, breezing through his personal approval of the Alice child actors?? Despite the exclamation points (desperately trying to lighten the mood), I'm not all fired up, I'm not trying to cause any trouble here, and I'm genuinely loving the new show! Pretend we're in one of those quiet old writer bars and you can sock me

Jim Cannon

I am grateful Chad mentioned the 80s TV version, as it saved me the trouble of doing so. I have an Alice-head in my life and they swear by that version. Me, as previously mentioned, never got into Alice proper. Wonderland is a horrifying place. Give me Oz, Mongo, the Uncharted Territories, or almost anything else informed by Alice, over the actual thing. Oh and yes, in case you're wondering, Telly Savalas as the Chesire Cat is pretty crazy.

Grahm Eberhardt

As a huge fan of the books, I've always disliked the Disney toon. It borrows a bunch of character ideas, tosses them in a blender, and lets them hit the screen completely at random. There's a sense to the nonsense in the book. Alice is on the cusp of young adulthood, struggling to understand the adult world and is confused by how ludicrous the rules of society are. For me, the definitive adaptation is the 1972 film starring Fiona Fullerton in the title role. The songs are a bit corny but it gets the tone right, at least for my tastes, and includes lots of scenes and dialogue that gets left out of most other versions. Of the 7 Alice DVDs I own, that one's been watched the most.

Adequately Excellent Entertainment

The “White Queen” thing is from “Through The Looking Glass”, which is the sequel where she falls through a mirror instead of down the rabbit hole. In that one it’s chess pieces instead of cards and, if you can imagine, it’s even trippier than Alice’s Adventures. I also have to agree that the Tim Burton Alice movie was… visually amazing but ultimately confused and pointless.

Robert Sealand

There is a new graphic novel series called “Alice Ever After”, which is Alice in early adulthood who is addicted to opium.

Christine M

I happen to be re-reading the John Dies at the End books in preparation for the new volume coming out in October. It struck me that this series actually owes a lot to Alice. The "rabbit hole" leads to a more terrifying alternate reality, and the surrealism involves way more "adult" content, but the feel is definitely the same. What better way to parse such content as, "The phrase 'sodomized by a bratwurst poltergeist' suddenly flew through my mind”?

Sweatin' to the Great Oldies

Alice is all right by me. But I don't think it really is adaptable. I am rather a fan of the Tom Petty video, though.

Rafe Ball

The mention of Dungeons & Dragons reminded me that there are two official AD&D modules based on Lewis Carroll’s work – EX1 Dungeonland and EX2 The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, where the characters fall down an interdimensional rabbit hole into Wonderland. You can fight the Smilodon Cat, though its powers of etherealness, dimension door and invisibility might make that hard, battle the Mock (Dragon)Turtle, or gather oysters for the Walrus and the Carpenter (1 in 4 of the largest oysters contain a 1,000gp pearl)! You might think fighting the Bandersnatch and the Jabberwocky would be bad, but heaven forbid you knock Humpty Dumpty off his wall and he summons all the King’s horses and all the King’s men – 24 Wooly Rhinoceros and 72 Frost Giants!

Innsmouth Gold

Don't know if you guys are Tom Waits fans, but you might like to check out his album Alice (2002). It's based on the opera of the same name by Robert Wilson. The album includes one of Wait's most poignant songs, Poor Edward, actually based on a true story: Edward Mordrake, said to have been heir to one of the noblest peerages in England. He never claimed the title, however, and committed suicide in his twenty-third year. He lived in complete seclusion. His figure was remarkable for its grace, and his face – that is to say, his natural face – was that of an Antinous. But upon the back of his head was another face, that of a man. The ugly twin, "occupying only a small portion of the posterior part of the skull, yet exhibiting every sign of intelligence, of a malignant sort, however", would be seen to smile and sneer while Mordake was weeping. The eyes would follow the movements of the spectator, and the lips "would gibber without ceasing". No voice was audible, but Mordake avers that he was kept from his rest at night by the hateful whispers of his "devil twin", as he called it, "which never sleeps, but talks to me forever of such things as they only speak of in Hell." In spite of careful watching, he managed to procure poison, whereof he died, leaving a letter requesting that the "demon face" might be destroyed before his burial, "lest it continues its dreadful whisperings in my grave." At his own request, he was interred in a waste place, without stone or legend to mark his grave. Creepy, huh? Poor guy. Alice the opera trailer: https://youtu.be/dP1_6PtLkDs

Tom Lewis

Colour Out of Space me disappointed: you two are such great literary commentators, to hear you dismiss the Alice books as "just a lot of nonsense" felt like a real miss. Would you be willing to give it another try after you read the books? They really are a quick read, and so rich-slash-rewarding. Throw in The Hunting of the Snark and all will be forgiven!

David Halstead

When Disney's '51 movie aired on TV they cut a few scenes for time. You can find all the details on imdb. I grew up with a recording of this on VHS, so I never saw the Carpenter and the Walrus scene. I had to go look it up after hearing you talk about it because I didn't know that was in there.

Shadavid

The Burton Alice? Aah... a sign of Burton's decline, I think. In Batman Returns he takes a pretty amusing pot shot at Campbell's Hero's Journey malarkey (Penguin's origin), but by this film uses that format as a scaffold to hang his images on. Did not like him implicating Alice in the Opium Wars either- 'Oh I've a good idea, let's open China up for trade.' Did he not know or not care?