Being Small in Martial Arts and Politics w/ Chris Gayomali (Uncut + Transcript) (Patreon)

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Writer and martial artist Chris Gayomali joins Sam to discuss how he went from public libraries to a career in journalism and fighting in the ring. Chris writes the newsletter Heavies.

Transcript

[Note: Transcripts are autogenerated and may contain errors.]

This is Southpaw. I'm your host, Sam. Today, I have a very special guest. Chris, can you introduce yourself and give us a bit of your background?

Yeah, it's an honor to be here. My name is Chris Gayomali. I'm a journalist and a Muay Thai practitioner, very amateur, based in New York City. I spent the bulk of my career at GQ Magazine and

working in fashion spaces like uh essence and can you give us your context such as

where you grew up where your family is from yeah totally so um i'm uh you know my parents uh i was born and raised in long beach california um you know which is a very cool place to grow up uh strangely very diverse. It's both like a beach town and a suburb,

but also has like a little bit of a, you know, a cool laid back progressive vibe in some ways. And yeah, they, my parents are both Filipino. My mom, they both worked in hospitals their whole lives. So they were kind of mystified that I somehow ended up in journalism and writing and all that stuff to

Didn't grow up with very many books in the house. So kind of had to, I don't know how I ended up becoming as big a reader as I did. But yeah, now I work in journalism and live in New York City with my wife and kid.

Were the libraries an important part of your life growing up? Because I know for a lot of immigrant families who don't speak the language, it's just kind of like drop the kids off at the library and let them absorb.

Oh, totally. Yeah. And us being Asian too, like nothing is more appealing than a free service. So we spent a lot of time at, there was a local one to my elementary school called Dana, Dana Point Library. And I was basically there every weekend, often forgetting to return books.

But I sort of developed like a very early fascination with like, this is so corny, but like weapons and swords and my stuff like that, which kind of sparked a nascent interest in martial arts. And then that led to joining a karate studio nearby to the house. Practiced that growing up. How old?

It was like, let me think. I think it was like fifth grade until early high school for me. We did that. My brothers and I, I have two younger brothers. kind of advanced pretty quickly in the classes. And by the time we were sparring most days,

we would kind of just end up taking our aggression out on each other. And we were kind of like the top dogs in the class. So me and my brother would just be going at each other in front of everyone. And it was kind of like a nice place to work out a lot of the, you know,

sibling rivalry stuff and not in the house. Do you remember the style? Yeah, it was a derivative of like Shaolin Shuanfa. So it was a very watered down version of Kung Fu that they marketed as karate, which was so interesting. It was family run. You know,

it was just like a lot of like neighborhood kids who were there and a lot of forums and kata and stuff like that. I really enjoyed it. I thought it like just provided like such a nice base for discipline and like humility and like being like, I don't know,

I never wanted there was pretty cool for the most part as I was going through it. And then as an adult, I sort of got into Muay Thai again fairly recently, like in my 30s. So I probably had like a 20 year gap between martial arts in my life.

I lost all my flexibility and I had to sort of like work my way towards getting a kick above my waist or something like that. And I've been doing that for like the last five or so years here in New York City. So what brought you back to training? I had a friend. Her name is Alma.

She's sort of a good friend now. Our kids play together. But she was a party girl here in New York City and also from California. And we were just sort of friends. And I saw her sort of like she kind of dropped a lot of the partying and like got really into the sport and was so good.

She like, you know, made the IFMA team, got to travel all over the world to compete in tournaments, just all this really, really cool stuff. And it was so it was cool seeing how enriching that was for her. And then she was like a guest at our wedding and on the dance floor. This was in 2019.

I was super buzzed, obviously, because it was my wedding. And she came up to me and was like, you got to come to my Muay Thai gym. I think you would have so much fun. And I was like, yeah, I'm done to check that. And I checked it out.

almost puked to the first class after like going through it. It was like the hardest thing I've ever done. But just really enjoyed going through it and like hitting stuff again. So, you know, then the pandemic happened. And for whatever reason here in New York City, the gyms were one of the first places to open up again,

which was so stupid in retrospect. But I was kind of grateful for it because then I didn't have anything to do all day. So I would go to the gym in the mornings. work out, hang out, make friends. And then, you know, I just kind of did that every day for like a couple of years.

And it kind of just like built this momentum where I became addicted to it and came to really love the sport and, you know, all the stuff that came with it. And yeah, I've been having fun with it ever since.

I know you also are into weight training. Did that start also once you started doing martial arts again?

It was very, very on and off. To be honest, I started adding in kettlebell and weight training while preparing to compete. I just knew I needed to get a little bit stronger and that I kind of had a latent anxiety about... I'm almost 40, and so I was very concerned about losing muscle.

A lot of the research around longevity says that you have to... be very active to build muscle and lead a sort of life that like allows you to be mobile as you get older in age. And so, you know, that was kind of how that entered the picture for me.

And yeah, I've been doing a little bit of both ever since. I really like it. On the weeks I don't get out there very much, I feel a little crummy. So that's kind of where I'm currently at.

So sounds like for you, martial arts started pretty early in your life, but blossomed in the same place that you were blossoming your love for reading, which was the libraries, where you could look up all sorts of different niche interests. So then how did writing get started for you?

Writing for me, honestly, it was a very sort of selfish teenage pursuit or whatever. I don't know about you, but I grew up with Zanga was the big thing. Do you remember that? So I had the Zanga and I was doing a lot of writing in there,

mostly because I thought girls would like it and think I was deep or something. Very selfish, you know, but... And I had guy friends who would make fun of me. It's like, why are you writing all the time? Or talking about your feelings and trying to understand them or whatever. Now in retrospect, I'm like, oh yeah,

that was a very healthy practice to have in my teenage years. And it kind of taught me a form of vulnerability that I think has served me really well in my career. Um, and so doing like, you know, I think becoming a writer is in many ways, like you kind of get your reps in.

There's no way to not be terrible when you're starting out, especially. And thankfully I did it early enough where all my terrible reps kind of got out of the way rather quickly. And, uh, you know, so people are only seeing the stuff that's a slightly more polished than that, I guess.

So you started blogging, but blogging is a different world because you are the writer and editor. Yes. You don't have to get feedback from anybody. So was that hard when you were first getting feedback?

I think I had no conception of what good writing looked like. There were authors I admired. And as I progressed into college and my world opened up into... new forms of writing and what that could look like and journalism especially. I sort of came to understand what good writing actually was.

But in those years, I just didn't know anything. So I think that in some ways that sort of being a blank slate and being kind of, you know, ignorant uh kind of served a very good purpose and just that it made me move

forward and practice and get my reps in and um you know the funniest part about like uh you know uh we met online through substack for people listening like is that we've kind of circled back to this form of blogging without an editor anymore

so it's like oh we're like uh we're right back to the zanga days again except now it's like uh you know you could put a subscription link in i guess yeah

I was going to talk about that later. But sticking with writing, so you're a writer, you've been a magazine editor, and you're also a martial artist. For you, does writing and editing inhabit a different world from martial arts or are they all interrelated?

I see the similarities in both of them. I feel like the process towards getting better, it's such an opaque idea, but just the concept of getting better is very iterative. It is just doing a thing that doesn't feel all that different from the rep before it, but you are making marginal improvements every time you do.

Um, I don't know why that is. I think it's a subconscious thing where you just kind of like, you know, are taking in new information and it gets swirled up somewhere deep inside of you. And then maybe eventually like you're, you're kind of happy with how your kit feels or, you know, the,

the types of sentences you're able to string together at some point. And I kind of feel like there's, um, they're kind of complimentary in that way because they allow me to understand, um, Just like what good art can be and what it looks like and what I'm capable of.

And they're both really hard, which I kind of appreciate too. The thing about martial arts is it is a practice in radical vulnerability. You're moving in front of other people. You're doing stuff that makes you feel clumsy and off balance. Kind of silly. And writing is often like that too. And so you make, you know,

you make not mistakes, but it's like you, everything is kind of like a learning opportunity to get a little bit better. And that's kind of what I appreciate about both of them.

For people who don't know, in the world of writing, they kind of use these broad categories to categorize writers as either plotters or pantsers. And pantsers are people who just go by the seat of their pants, just kind of winging it as they go. And that works for some people and some people have to plot it out.

The same goes for training. Some people have to outline how they're going to train. They have to be very regimented. I know some people who outline and plot out their training schedule for even months ahead. So how would you describe your attitudes for writing and training?

I like the idea of setting very little achievable goals. Sometimes that happens in the moment. You know what I mean? Whether it's about... you know, fixing the flare of your elbow as you're punching or something or with writing. It's like, you know,

I'm going to be very determined with the story that I'm working on to not fall on the same bag of tricks or like, you know, like same words that I've been using in every other thing that I've been writing. So I kind of see it as just like little... challenges that you impose on yourself in a way.

And I kind of feel like that's been very helpful for me because, you know, I've been doing both long enough now that I could kind of build towards something that feels like it has a little bit of shape to it. And so that's kind of where I'm at with both of them.

I'm a far better writer than I am a martial artist for the record. So just to be clear on that.

What are some of the factors that have influenced your politics and worldview? Because writers have a point of view. They might not always be able to express it, but that doesn't mean they don't have one.

Yeah. Well, I wrote about this in my sub-stack semi-recently for, it's called Heavies. So my first job out of college, I was pretty, you know, to... I was in college. I was a little hippie-ish. I was kind of like a surfer stoner, but I didn't have a real...

I didn't really have a conception of personal politics at the time. And when I graduated, I got my first job in Irvine, California, and I worked for this sort of... health insurance consulting firm that sort of worked with doctors to, um, you know, assess whether, uh, someone who was injured on the job site was like, um,

able to get the necessary care that they needed. Right. And so the doctors, I was helping copy edit these, um, reports about, uh, you know, like someone would hurt their back at work and then they would make their case to the insurance companies and then a doctor would make a determination if the injury, you know,

was something that warranted the insurance companies paying for like their lumbar back support or like, you know, chiropractic care or something like that. And it was like, that was kind of the first thing that sort of radicalized me in a way because I was like, man, like going through this through the year, it was a very like...

like brain frying, mind numbing job. But also I was like, wow, these people are going through like grievous injuries and we're just kind of like a layer of bureaucracy that's making it really hard for them to get healthcare. And so going through that, I was just like, I need a change in my life.

So after a year of doing that, I like quit that job, moved to New York City, didn't really have a plan in place. But that was sort of like kind of set the table for me, you know, reading more about politics and sort of like developing this like a progressive, you know, way of looking at the world.

And, you know, I just think everyone should have healthcare and be able to take care of themselves.

So do these views impact your way of thinking when you think about martial arts or speak about it?

Yeah, it's tough because martial arts, you know, it's like, it's so weird. I think it's so fascinating that like we went from like, you know, Bruce Lee's sort of like loosely Taoist principles to like, you know, everyone completely being red-pilled, which I think is, you know,

by dint of sort of Dana White and the UFC having so much influence on the world of martial arts and its popularity today, right? But, you know, what I kind of appreciate about Muay Thai is It has its problems like anything else, but I do like that there's a lot of women practice it.

My coach, she's the one who got me into it. There's hints of... It coming from a feminist culture, there's some Buddhist influence that comes through with it too, where it's not like, I'm just trying to rip this guy's head off. It's kind of like, there's a built-in level of respect and tolerance.

Obviously, the American version of it is like... seeding all these like disgusting like american values into it to make it feel a little bit more like uh mma and all that stuff but um you know i think the art is

uh it's kind of it's kind of nice to have this space where you know i've made a lot of very progressive friends in the space and um a lot of them are women a lot of them are very creative and um you know um that's that's kind of what i what's drawn me

to it versus other martial arts how often do you train um it depends right now like um it's uh i i i shoot for like five six days a week Um, but obviously, you know, life intrudes and that's kind of harder some weeks and then others.

Five, six days, just Muay Thai, or is that also counting just weight training and conditioning?

I'll like sneak in like two times of doing like a, like weight strength and conditioning training. Like, you know, usually in the form of kettlebells, I'll like tack it on to like a day or something like that. And then my gym also offers like kettlebell classes and stuff like that. So that's really nice.

And kind of makes it easy just to get everything out of the way. I'm very bad at running of my own volition. Yeah. unless I have a fight coming up or something like that. But, you know, it's just, I like hitting pads. I love sparring. I love all that stuff. I just find it so fun.

And it's a, you know, I find it like as a healthier expression than a lot of other stuff in my life that I'd rather be doing.

So to clarify, you tack on strength and conditioning on days you're also doing Muay Thai?

Yeah, yeah. So how it usually works out is like I'll do like, there's like a kettlebell class, like say Tuesday, Thursday mornings or whatever. And that's like 30 minutes. And then right after that, there'll be like a drills and sparring class. And then I'll go do that after that.

And so I could get both in on the same day, which feels like a nice companion to each other. That's a lot. Yeah. I mean, like I never, I kind of never thought I would be like a person like this, but then it somehow happened anyway. And I'm like, you know, this could be worse.

You know, I feel, I feel pretty good for, for my age.

Okay. So when you've been training for a while, you make a lot of realizations about training and wish you could have done things differently. What are things you wish you knew that would have served you well when you first started up again, Muay Thai in particular?

For me, I wish I focused more on balance and footwork in the beginning. Just because I had to make a lot of corrections that ended up taking a lot of time later on. You know better than anyone, it's hard to undo something. And so, yeah, my balance and weight distribution, I feel like could have been...

I think the term for it in Muay Thai is rup. It's like your sturdiness. I wish I had more of that in the beginning because I think I was trying to use a lot of like... karate, um, sort of, uh, bounciness and stuff to my style. But, but now that like,

like it took a couple of years to understand, have a better, um, picture of how all of that fit together. And I eventually got my balance a little bit better. And now I can like sort of add in some of the, some stuff that worked for me really well in karate and like into the way I

practice this. And I feel like, um, I'm kind of at a place now where I feel like I'm doing something that's kind of unique to me,

which feels nice. So we've been talking around this. So let's talk about it. What is Heavies and why did you start it?

Yeah, so heavies, it was just, you know, that's my, the subsec I started. I got laid off from my job at GQ where I was at for nine years last year. And I'd always wanted to write more about like health and wellness and wanted to

create a sort of space where you can look at it through a progressive lens where I can write about like, you know, the failings of the healthcare industry and also like, you know, um, Westernized medicine and how it like sort of frowns upon these Eastern ideas of

care that like have worked for centuries and already have a proven track record. But because of like attitudes towards like, you know, Eastern medicine and, you know, all that kind of stuff, like it's kind of verboten in some ways. And so I kind of just want to like work a lot of that into this, uh,

the space that where, you know, it kind of sucks that wellness is, it's just a symptom of capitalism in some ways where we're left to fend for ourselves. And I wanted to like, you know, to both like, you know, help people understand that concept and also like find maybe ideas that they can

toy around with on their own and maybe learn something from and find ways to take care of themselves too and feel better.

So earlier you said we've come full circle. So are blogs and newsletters back?

Yeah, dude. Like, I feel like a lot of my, you know, the... One theory I had in working in journalism, especially online for so long, is there has been a sort of flattening effect of a lot of mainstream websites in some ways. I think this is the result of the technology companies like Google and Meta and all

of that who... sort of put these parameters on that kind of shapes content so everyone's chasing the same seo they're chasing the same viral you know stories or whatever and it kind of made it hard for you know writers to put out very original ideas or stuff that like took a chance and

The newsletter space is kind of exciting in that way that you could put new ideas out there and see if there's an audience for it and maybe it resonates with people. But I think there's just more originality now with newsletters, which is kind of the most exciting part.

But in thinking about this changing media landscape, it has been interesting to watch people who maybe eight years ago had a blog or a newsletter and it was popular, but then it started waning and they're like, oh man, newsletters, blogs, this medium is dead. And then they all switched over to podcasts. And then that's the future.

And it's more accessible than YouTube because you don't even need a camera. It's easier. You just hop on a microphone, right? And then all those same podcasters, I would say myself included, we started going back to the newsletter. It somehow did come full circle. And it's like, oh, definitely podcasts aren't what they used to be.

But newsletters are once again becoming a thing.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there it's, what's kind of nice about right now is you don't have to like sort of put all your eggs in one of them. Like you can like, uh, you could kind of like try all of it and you could kind of find a way that like makes it all fit together.

And it's cool seeing people do that. Um, you know, and taking real ownership of their work in that way. And that's something I really appreciate. It's like, you know, you're not kind of beholden to like just writing blog posts or just like, you know, podcasting. You can kind of make it all work together in an interesting way.

And I really like that. I know one of the things you've been thinking about and even writing about in heavies is different approaches to learning martial arts and even physical movements writ large. What got you started thinking about that?

Yeah, it's weird. Like, you know... I'm not like a natural athlete whatsoever. And so I kind of have an appreciation for athletes in different sports who kind of had to overcome their own physical limitations. My favorite tennis player of all time is Michael Chang. And, you know,

that he had to get creative with like an underhand serve and like, you know, like play a certain way. Like really like, like I love that stuff. And so when I think about movement and like martial arts, especially, I'm always thinking about like, what are things that, you know,

my body allows me to be capable of that other people can't. And to think very intentionally about like what, you know, my short limbs and like, you know, short body can like bring to the table. And so that's, I love challenges like that and figuring it out and figuring out how to overcome

these like built in like sort of disadvantages where other people might have something over me.

So on top of training Muay Thai, you also mentioned you compete in Muay Thai. Can you tell us about that, how you went from training to fighting, or if that was always the goal when you started?

It was never really the goal. I think offhandedly, a couple of coaches said, like, hey, you're progressing. I think it would be an interesting challenge if you wanted to take up a fight. Yeah. That kind of got the wheels turning a little bit. And I was like, you know what? I might as well. Let's do it.

It'll be a good challenge for me. And I took my first fight. I was 38. I got matched up with this kid who was 19. So, you know, it is like athletic crime. We both fought at 125 pounds. And, you know,

what I didn't expect was the promotion that I ended up fighting on had a lot of fanfare. Like, you know, it was like big screens behind it and like WWE style entrances where you pick your entrance music and like there's a whole crowd.

And it was kind of nerve wracking for me because I hadn't even done a smoker at that point. or in like, um, kind of just got thrown in. The kid was way taller than me. He was like, he had like a four inch height advantage.

I think he was like five, nine and I'm like five, five on a good day. And, um, when we weighed in, we like, you know, it was like he, he, he was, he was, he looked skinny and then he refueled for the actual fight. And so when I finally saw him again, across from me in the ring,

I was like, you're like two of me, dude, like bulked up. He was just absolutely massive. Um, I took one punch and I remember like, I was so stupid too. Like my contact lenses fell out. So then everything was blurry from like that moment on.

And I was like, oh man, I just got my ass kicked in front of all my friends and family. It was a very humbling experience. And I thought going into the fight, I was like, oh, for sure, I'll at least like, you know, I just had our kid. I was like, oh,

at least I'll have dad strength on this guy and like, you know, be able to use that. But then after the fight, like he was really nice. We met in the hallway and he dad me up and he was like, oh, yeah, I got a three year old. And so.

Yeah, the dad strength was even and he was way bigger and way faster and like very aggressive. But it was good. It kind of like lit a fire under me. I was like, I'm never gonna let that happen again. And so, you know, my competitive side was like, got really into it after I recovered.

And it's like, I was supposed to have a fight this past fall. But then the dude came in like way overweight. And I was like, I think he was from some cop gym in New Jersey. So I was like, my joke was that they're used to like flouting the rules for their own advantages.

And I think he kind of expected me to take the fight, even though he was like almost 10 pounds more than me. And this was still at 125? No, this was at 130. It was the same day weigh in though.

So he weighed, I weighed in at like 129 and he came in at like 138 on the same day. And I was like, yo, you're way bigger than me. I like approached him after I was like, what happened to your weigh in, dude? Like why, how come you didn't hit weight?

And he just like, kind of like made up some excuse and kind of looked at the floor or whatever. And I was like, whatever, like, you know. It was it was very frustrating because it was a six week fight camp and like a lot

of discipline in terms of eating and making weight and all of that for it to just not happen then was kind of annoying. But, you know, I felt like I got really good during that camp. So at least, you know, there was some progression there that I was happy with, but still wanted to test myself.

So was this going to be your second fight?

Yeah, that was going to be my second fight. So we'll see what comes up. The kind of hard thing is it's sort of hard to find 125-pounders in New York City. There aren't too many unless, I don't know, I don't want to fight like a 14-year-old or whatever. But yeah, that's like... Yeah, that's sort of it.

So my name's out there. I'm sort of looking for another one, but maybe I'll do one of the tournaments that they have later this year or something.

So to give a little bit more context for listeners who might not be as familiar with Muay Thai, a lot of times when people are zero-zero, they've never done anything. You're wearing headgear, you have to wear shin protectors, elbow pads. And some people start in point, which just means that you can't go for a finish.

So what was your first competition? Were you wearing headgear and elbow pads? Were elbows allowed? Were you wearing shin pads?

Yeah. So I thought it was like in New York, apparently, I think if you're going to take an amateur fight, you start at C class, which means no elbows. You wear shin pads and a helmet. But I think they did like some weird like, you know,

some sort of shady stuff so that we didn't have to wear a helmet. And then they wrote on the fight poster that we were both B-class. And then I noticed in some of the paperwork, they were like, oh, Chris has two smokers under his belt. And the other guy, I think, had like five

I know he's had at least like three or something like that. And I was like, okay, so it was supposed to be both our first official amateur fight, but he had like a little bit more experience than me. And so I was kind of like, oh, we're just going to go out without headgear, huh?

All right, let's go for it. That was a little dumb on my part, but it was, it was, it was still really fun. You know, I think it was a good, I think my defense is pretty solid. So I was thankfully able to like defend myself pretty well and like not take any

big knocks to the head or anything like that. But yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a lesson in like, you know, how shady stuff like this can get pretty quickly. You know, I, it's even worse in Thailand apparently. Yeah.

So your first fight, your first amateur, you were doing it without headgear. It's hard to go back to headgear now. So was your second fight going to be the same way? No headgear?

Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was like, yeah, let's just like, let's just like do no headgear. I'm already in the thick of it. Like it's fine. Yeah, I would love to fight no gear someday. But I'm kind of getting up there in age already. So it's weird.

My one regret is not starting this sport a little bit younger. So I could have gotten some real competition in.

And for listeners, it's not that headgear necessarily... prevents head damage, but it can prevent things like cuts and head butts and different things like that. So that if this is over the weekend and you got to go to work the next day. Yeah. And even things like accidental thumbs to the eye, like, yes,

getting hurt in the eye is very common. And so the headgear prevents that and just a cut can open up so easily. So it prevents a lot of other type of damage, not necessarily all for the brain.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of like literature to that. It's like headgear does very little to protect from concussions, which I which I've always found interesting. But yeah. It just makes like clinching like a little less fun. And you can do like some shady stuff too.

Or it's like you could pull the helmet over their eyes if you wanted to fight dirty and like all that stuff too. And so it's just like an element that I don't want to have to deal with.

And you can't see as well. That's a big thing.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So competing in Muay Thai doesn't come with the potential earning power of, let's say, boxing or MMA, and doesn't have the same Western social status as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, where you can amass a lot of followers if you're a competitor, make a lot of money from seminars, and even win cash prizes.

So what do you think draws people to compete in Muay Thai, especially here in the U.S., when there isn't as much financial benefit?

Yeah, I think, you know, the thing I appreciate in that is, like, there is more, like, a purity to, like, your aspirations in that way. It's like you're not doing it for the money. You do it because you genuinely love moving and the stand-up art of fighting. I think jiu-jitsu is interesting.

I haven't, like, gone really deep in that at all. But yeah, Muay Thai, I just feel like it's so fun to watch. And there's a lot of theater to it too, especially in the Thai fights. I love watching RWS and all those guys and those promotions.

It's so cool seeing the evolution of the sport happening in real time. And I feel like it's so much popular than it was a decade ago. You know what I mean? Now you could mention it and people actually know what you're talking about. So, you know, it's come a long way. And, you know,

it's cool seeing athletes even like in the UFC, like Khalil Roundtree or something like sort of like, you know, building Muay Thai into like the way they fight, like very explicitly. And that's really cool to see.

Something that's come up in all my recent conversations with martial artists connected to the Liberation Martial Arts Project is is power and how people often flatten power as being all the same, not differentiating the power to abuse from the power to resist abuse. Right. You mentioned your weight and that's important because that means everyone in the

gym might be bigger than you. Yeah. So for people who are not the biggest and often working with people who are bigger, I felt the same thing. Our views on power can be even more granular. Yes. Not just in how uses of power aren't all the same, but how their magnitudes aren't all the same.

One magical belief that exists for many people when they think about martial arts is that size doesn't matter. And I think a lot of that comes from entertainment media and Orientalism.

Mm-hmm.

If two people are of equal skills, size matters. But even when they are not of equal skills, We've both felt this. Even if I am better, my kicks or my shoves won't affect or impact my bigger opponent the same way theirs will affect me. Right. Regardless of their skill. Right. So with size disparity comes multiple disadvantages. Yes.

It's still easier for the unskilled, bigger person to hurt me and affect my body than it is for me to hurt or affect them. Yes. Even if I'm hitting them more, what does it matter if it's not affecting them?

Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, and moderating your power too. Like, you know, the bigger person's 50% is going to be, you know, maybe feel like 80% to you as a smaller person. You know what I mean? And so, you know, I really do admire the bigger people who are able to exercise that level of control

over their technique. Like, those are like my favorite training partners. Yeah. But yeah, no, it's like being the smaller fighter, you have to be a little crafty. And it goes back to that idea of I love the athletes who have to be creative in their approach and find ways to get their hits in.

I think my style is actually very... The way I kind of approach, like, I consider myself, like, pretty tricky. And, like, I love sweeping and catching and doing all this stuff that, like, can frustrate a bigger opponent. And, yeah, the craftiness is kind of, like, I love that stuff.

I love, like, watching, like, Jason Williams play basketball or something like that. Like, someone who has to be a little bit more creative about their approach rather than just, you know, beasting on everyone else because they can't

But despite all that, it's still not often an equal and level playing field because like you, right? You have to do all this strength and conditioning on top of skill training because you want to increase physical power to overcome power and size disadvantages. Yes.

I see this in politics and how people assume or talk about all countries from a perspective where they all have equal power when there's only one heavyweight and everyone else is a lightweight or below. Yeah. So as someone who has to train with bigger people, sometimes competing against bigger people and physically experiencing how different

magnitudes of power play out, Do you ever draw parallels from the gym to the world and have your gym experiences inform your thoughts about the world outside of the gym?

I think I am more naturally sympathetic that way to people who are in a disadvantaged situation, whether that's marginalized communities or people who don't have as much, their voices aren't heard as often. And I think that's informed my own approach to politics and who I throw my support to and stuff like that.

I do believe that we should all have a standard safety net that allows people to have opportunities as someone who has infinitely more wealth or stuff like that. I think everyone should be able to hold down if they wanted to work in a creative field and earn a standard living and have health care.

And, uh, you know, a reasonable rent, I kind of feel like that's not out of the question. Like, it's like, that should just be a given.

Well, I mean, how scary is training martial arts if you don't have health insurance?

Exactly. Right. Like, you know, I don't think I would be able to, if I would, if I didn't have health insurance. And so, you know, it's, um, it's a, it's a privilege in some ways, but I wish it didn't have to be.

That's the thing, right? There's a lot of fun things. There's a lot of play. As an adult, you should still be able to play, but play often comes with risks. Yes. Sometimes play is risky play. And you can't take those risks, even if they seem fun or can bring your life joy,

if you don't have that safety net just in case, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm too old to be taking... I love the thrill of competing and fighting. It really does something to my brain that I can't replicate anywhere else. And I'm not even naturally a thrill seeker, but I really do love it. But I also like can't be taken like, you know,

multiple fights a year and have a body that's capable of working and raising a kid and all this other stuff. So, you know, it's a tricky thing to navigate.

Related to this, what's your approach to training with people bigger than you as far as sparring and holding pads? And how do you stay injury free?

Yeah, I try to be, you know, I'll go with everyone at least once or whatever. But I'm always kind of like making constant assessments of like, oh, like, you know, am I getting something out of this? Like, in the same way that like, I'm trying to help like, you know,

maybe someone who's newer and bigger develop or whatever. Yeah. There are some bigger people who are like, they just will always go too hard. And I tend to avoid those people if I can. Try to be selective about training partners where it is more like of a conversation, especially when it comes to sparring.

And give a little, take a little, learn something from each other. Those are my favorite people to work with for the most part. And my philosophy of pad holding is actually a little bit different because something I kind of like bet on early in my Muay Thai start was I kind of made it a real goal.

Like I want to be a really good pad holder just so I can like get... really like, so people who are much better than me, like will be happy to go with me because I can like offer them something. Um, it's, and it's transactional in that way. Right. Which is like a little bit, it was also like,

I kind of love just the idea of being helpful and being sought after. And like, um, you know, helping people improve themselves. And so I consider myself actually like a pretty good pad holder. And, you know, I think that's something that allowed me to get better relatively quickly. And that, you know,

I was just able to like get quality work in with good partners pretty early on.

I see. So you offered them something and so they offered you something back.

Yeah. And it's also like, you know, it's kind of like a less glamorous thing, but I was like watching like, you know, you're, you're a beginner, you're watching like YouTube videos of like, you know, really cool same chime moves that you can do or whatever.

But I was watching like how to hold pads and, you know, do combos for people. And I was just like, yeah, if I could become a good paddle holder, I think I'm going to like get good paddle holders in return and it'll, it'll just like be nice for everyone.

So it was a little like community based and like, um, I ended up having one of my favorite pad holders. Her name is Nan. She's approaching 50, but she's also one of the most in shape women I've ever met with. And she's a jewelry designer out here.

And we became really good friends because we just ended up going together all the time because there was a kinetic chemistry there that was really nice. And then we very quickly realized we had a lot of aspirations outside of the sport in common. And we both like clothes and all this stuff. And so it was like,

oh yeah, like it was, it kind of like allowed for all these like other things to happen in my life. So I, yeah, get good at pad holding is my word of advice for people.

A friend of mine has a similar advice and it shows how like unconsciously capitalism just subsumes everything. So one of their things is if they're checking out a new gym or about to switch to a new gym or go to a new gym, They'll take a private lesson from the head instructor or the owner.

Oh, nice.

And the reason why they do that is because they're like, if I'm new, why is this person going to care about me? Yeah. Yeah. You know, why am I going to get any attention? Yeah. But if I invest in them, right, pay them money, they're financially, now they're invested in me.

And whether they knowingly do it or not, they're going to start paying attention to me more. Yeah. And that's like an actual thing. And it takes money to do it, right? But it does work. And it actually does speak to how a lot of martial arts, I think more Brazilian jiu-jitsu, the richest people,

the people with the most privilege get the best because they can do those kinds of things.

Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. That's so smart of your friend to, to work this system that way. Um, I might have to do that, but, but I, but I, you know, I, I also do feel like, you know, paying people for their knowledge or whatever is kind of like, um, I, it, that's like a,

that's kind of like a very like good transaction for the most part. So I I'm, I'm happy to like work with people who can teach me something new and I'll, um, One of the people I actually interviewed at GQ was Israel Adesanya or whatever for a story.

And he talked a lot about how he has this very white belt mentality with everything he does. It's like, you can be like a total doofus on the mats or whatever. But if you have an idea of something to try, I'll get the shot and I'll try it.

And if it doesn't work for me, that's fine or whatever. But I'll try anything from anyone because I think everyone has... like everyone has like a different perspective and something to offer. And I'm willing to try that on. And I thought that was like really cool of him.

It kind of like made me think of him in a different way.

So you seem like you've lucked out as far as finding a gym. You found a gym that you like, has a lot of values you like. But have you known people, have friends who've had an opposite experience?

Yeah, no, no direct friends. But it's like, you know, there are a lot of like super... bro-y, you know, like macho gyms out here in New York too that are like, you know, very transphobic, very, you know, sometimes there's like, sometimes people, you know, like are abusive in different kinds of ways.

That's like a very pervasive thing throughout the Muay Thai community. But there is like, but at the same time, it's like, you know, there are, There are people out here, like there's women's sparring, women's only like sparring sessions where like women from all over the gyms in New York, like kind of convene on one gym.

And like, it's very like cool space to see that get activated. There's a lot of like dumb dude bro culture everywhere. And I try to like stay away from it when I can or correct it if the opportunity arises. Yeah.

But that's something listeners have to be aware of, right? When they're thinking about trying something, they have to know also the potential pitfalls and dangers so that they could go into it more informed.

Yeah. And I, and I do think it's like, it's cool seeing what you're doing too, because it's like, you know, I do think building community and everyone having sort of their stake in it is kind of the way forward for a lot of this. It's really cool to see.

And I, I wish there was more of that in New York. But I also really like appreciate like my gym's values and how, you know, you're going to run into like friction and, you know, uncomfortable situations no matter where you go.

But I feel like martial arts sort of gives you the tools to adapt to that in some ways too, which is something I appreciate.

Let's say someone listening to you right now also wants to start a physical routine of some kind. What's your best tip for them?

Um, I, I, you know, and I think this was a lesson I learned from you, but it really is just like, you know, find the joy in what you're doing, you know, like, you know, it's fine. Like if like, you know, you realize that you are a person who hates running, you know what I mean?

Like, it's like, then don't run. It's like, it's like find the thing that really does, uh, make you happy when you're doing it, you know, and try to like, um, clear, clear the path toward doing that. And for me, it's like, um, getting to hold pads with my friends and train hard and get exhausted.

That's been really fun. In my life, I've also played basketball and surfed and all that stuff, but nothing has caught on quite like this to the extent that it has. And I do feel like the only way to be consistent with something is to find those little sparks of joy in it.

So yeah, I think that's the only way to do it.

Let's say somebody is thinking about martial arts, but they're very agnostic about which one it is. They don't care. So why should people try Muay Thai? That's a good question.

For me, at least, I do feel like the movement is the most fun. There is something very satisfying about the smack of hitting a pad that you can't really replicate in a lot of other martial arts, I think.

And I do feel like that Muay Thai has a sort of purity to its fight philosophy in a way that... I do think the people who are like, what martial art is best in a street fight or whatever, that's the stupidest question in the world.

And those are people who have never been in a fight in their lives. But I do think Muay Thai's emphasis on clench and elbows and all that kind of stuff is actually kind of useful in that way. So yeah, I don't know.

I just feel like it's a very practical art that also has a real beauty and finesse to it. And that's kind of what I like about it.

That's the word I keep hearing from people when they talk about their love for Muay Thai in particular, beauty.

Yeah.

I've talked to people who've done all kinds of martial arts and they love it for various reasons. And they have all these different adjectives they use, but the one I've heard the most from Muay Thai is beauty.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you've ever read Sam Sheridan's book, A Fighter's, what is it, A Fighter's Heart? It's a really beautiful book. It was written in the early 2000s, I believe, before like Muay Thai and UFC got really popular and stuff.

But he, you know, kind of fell in love with the sport in the same way. Started Muay Thai and he kind of like tried out a bunch of different martial arts in different places. He goes to Brazil and learns jujitsu from the Gracies. Does Tai Chi even from a, you know,

a legendary practitioner here in New York and kind of like does a really lovely job of like showing how all the movement is connected in a real way. He made me want to like really get into Tai Chi.

after reading it.

But yeah, I can't recommend that book enough. It was a really great one.

Finish this sentence. My life without physical training would be... Boring.

Yeah, I don't know. It's just so fun. And I find myself just watching YouTube videos of an 18-year-old 18 year olds who are competing in Japan or whatever. Like, you know, it just makes me see movement in a totally different light. And yeah, I don't know. I just really love it.

Thank you so much for your time, Chris. I really appreciate it. Oh yeah. Thanks for having me, Sam. This is great.