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/249/ Dances with Truckers ft. Ashley Frawley (Patreon)

Published:
2022-03-22 07:01:00
Imported:
2026-06
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On the Freedom Convoy, the indigenous question, and 'anti-socialist socialism'(?)

Sociologist and commentator Ashley Frawley is back on the pod to talk about the situation in Canada. With family members involved in the protests, we asked her what she made of the truckers and the way demands were framed as 'anti-socialist'.We move on to debate how to understand popular resistance to 'social engineering' today, as well as the uses of 'emotionalism' to undermine political agency.  Readings & Links:

How the truckers split indigenous Canada, Ashley Frawley, UnHerd

Lecture: Emotion & Reason, Ashley Frawley, The Academy

Semiotics of Happiness, Ashley Frawley, Bloomsbury, 2005

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Comments

Conor

One of the best episodes to date I think. Ashely's understanding of the liberal construction of the indigenous subject (as either irreparably savaged by colonialism or bestowed with mystic Reiki powers) reminds me of Julian Reid's work on "resilience" - both in his ethnographic work with the Sámi and collaboration with David Chandler (The Neoliberal Subject). In his work with the Sámi, Reid draws similar conclusions - the Nordic states valorize the colonial suffering of indigenous people in the Lapland and their communities' "resilience," despite forced attempts at Christianization, land enclosure, and worse. Of interest, though, are the contrasting conclusions he draws from this case in comparison with Ashley's from the Canadian context. Instead of tacitly enforcing passivity to the managerial oversight of the federal government, the Sámi in Reid's work are to expect the opposite: by valorizing their "resilient" nature, the state can excuse itself from any obligation to redress the abject conditions of life in indigenous communities (oddly enough, reaching a similar material result as in the Canadian case - albeit, perhaps with less state-issued mental health clinicians involved). In The Neoliberal Subject, Reid and Chandler suppose this dynamic (surprise, surprise) exemplifies the ideal neoliberal subject: the state absconds from it's traditional obligation to provide security to those it governs by instead encouraging emergent, self-coordination on the part of communities and people themselves to manage risks and respond to crises. Rather than claims-staking demands of the state, "adaptation" is the order of the day.

Carson H

What a fantastic guest. Most thought-provoking episode in a while!

skipmur

I've just left a long enough comment in the last questions and critiques video related to this exact topic. But I'll say it again here, the left alienate themselves from these populist and broadly working class movements by refusing to engage with their participants in a serious and non condescending manner. Whenever issues like the role of the World Economic Forum or the "Great Reset" is raised, the left, even those sympathetic to the central aims of the movement, automatically dismiss these discussions as baseless conspiracy theories without doing even the most basic research for themselves regarding these topics, which aren't as ignorant or crazy to believe as the left so often portrays them to be. More often than not the lefts understanding of these topics are as grossly ill informed as the truckers understanding of communism and socialism is. All of these topics and theories operate outside of the accepted mainstream narrative, so it is only natural that people who haven't done any of their own research into how the world economic forum operates or what the great reset is all about, are going to be just as ignorant about these topics and blindly accept the narrative mainstream discourse dictates to them as those who believe that communism is all about control and domination of the individual. Because this is what mainstream discourse tells them to believe!. Without doing your own independent research whilst keeping an open mind, no matter what the subject is, you are more likely than not going to accept whatever propaganda is most prevalent in the mainstream. "The world economic forum is a anti-semitic conspiracy theory" is the same bullshit argument as "communism is evil and wants to enslave you and your family". You guys should really invite on a guest who will challenge your views on the alleged "conspiracy theories" which you repeatedly dismiss without ever demonstrating that you actually have an informed view on the topic.

Davka Smolah Collective

Frawley is always a fantastic, insightful guest, and only halfway through I can see this will go down as one of your greats -- of which there are so many lately! That said, regarding Phil's comment around 31:50, I actually quite disagree. I don't think liberals are really using the state to bring coherence to a fragmented civil society. I think liberals are the political expression *of* that civil society, wielding the state as a managerial/administrative instrument. The same could be said of conservative right-liberals, of course, except that since they are, in most cases, based upon various forms of "little brigades" and local gentry in both ideological and material dimensions, their version of this mode of governance comes across as more coherent than it really is.

Matthew Black

Not through the episode yet but I’m already struck by the similarity of the convoy to millenarian and Luddite movements and the fact that nobody on the left’s pointed that out yet—since it is such a big theme in academic Marxism and Marx’s own work, anyway. Also Ashley’s point about the class meaning of individualism and collectivism makes a lot of sense—for a lot of working class people individualism means not having to live for your boss.

Gary

I hope she keeps talking about this and refuses to shut up. She is good at it.

Surface Envy

I regards as to why truckers and other similar movements might frame things like vaccine mandates as some form of 'socialism', we can't forget that it has been the explicit project of right wing media, from Fox right down to local talk-back radio, to paint anything short of 'get off my lawn' free market capitalism as 'socialist' or 'communist' or 'neo-Marxist' etc etc. While we certainly don't want to overstate the influence and impact of mainstream media (lest we fall into arguments that the masses are being duped or hypnotised by the media etc), we should see this phenomenon (seeing everything from taxes to health and safety measures as 'socialist') as evidence of the power of putting out consistent and disciplined framings of issues and events. Further, this then highlights the damage done by the Left, to the extent that it exists, when it frames things like the trucker convoys as fascist.

Red Shmoo

First as Tragedy, second as trucks 🛻

jkjkjkj

Great episode, but one quibble. From what Ashley is describing the Canadian reaction to the truckers doesn’t sound like Jan 6th, which was broadly unpopular and disagreement largely stems from the degree to which punishment and culpability needs to be pursued. A better Comparison would be the rittenhouse trial: sharply divisive, poorly explained to the public, holding significant implications for civil liberties and due process and featuring a grossly misrepresented media villain demonized endlessly by the press (rittenhouse and the truckers)

Ghost Runner

It is great to hear my Canadian sister (no, I’m not that brother) talk sense about the truckers’ convoy. In the need to understand it for what it is and not to act as though it is not the second coming of the First International. It is less great to hear Phil lash out at her for saying there is some right-wing conspiracy shit mixed in by way of pretending she was horrified by her real brother’s self-education. Of course, she handled it with aplomb.

Rowan Z

Interesting interview, but the hosts are empirically wrong when they assert that some American municipalities are actually defunding the police. Sure there are a few local politicians in various cities calling for it, but that’s not the same thing materially.

Red Shmoo

Why does Phil believe there’s like some radical left that defunded American police departments? Is he sundowning like Biden or is he a spiritualist medium now channeling someone’s Fox News dad?

Blake

Loved this episode a lot, it's hard to get a good view of indigenous issues without falling into liberal mystification.