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192 - As Is: The First AIDS Play (Patreon)

Published:
2025-06-04 07:00:09
Imported:
2026-06
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This lads kick off pride month by revisiting an oft-forgotten but foundational play in the queer canon: William M. Hoffman’s As Is. Topics include the history of the AIDS play, Hoffman’s exquisite weaponization of comedy in the face of overwhelming tragedy, and the legacy of a 90 minute play that inspired an entire genre of theater.

Want more TWOAPW? Get access to our full back catalogue of premium/bonus episodes by subscribing for $5/month at Patreon.com/worstofall!

Media Referenced in this Episode:

As Is by William M. Hoffman. 1985.

AIDS-Involved Drama Syndrome by William M. Hoffman. Poz Magazine. February 1st, 1997.

Acts of Intervention by David Roman

The AIDS Show

Warren by Rebecca Ranson

“Playwright Rebecca Ranson’s Journals Reveal Turmoil in Atlanta’s Queer Community During the AIDS Crisis” by Oli Turner. The South and the Archive. October 31st, 2023.

As Is script

As Is movie

Interview with William Hoffman

TWOAPW theme by Brendan Dalton: Patreon // brendan-dalton.com // brendandalton.bandcamp.com

Interstitial: “Writer’s Block” // Written by A.J. Ditty // Feat. A.J. Ditty as “A.J. Ditty”

Additional Voices for As Is Excerpts: Anne Huston, Eleanor Philips, Dara Swisher and Brent Shultz

Files

Comments

Michael Kearley

This one was a really interesting one. I'm not super well versed in theatre, so I'd never heard of this play before, nor did I even really know that there were enough "AIDS Plays™" for there to be a genre. This is one where I'm really glad you guys performed sections of the play; the snippets you guys selected with Brian and AJ playing Rich and Saul really made it sing for me. As a cis, straight guy who was born in the mid-late 90s, I didn't really get much exposure to AIDS or HIV as a concept until I was nearly an adult, except as something that was a problem in Africa, like you touched on. I didn't learn about the utterly ghoulish glee with which the Reagan administration left so many to die until even later. Knowing that the ideological successors of that administration have burrowed into everything even more deeply, like the fucking termites they are, boils my blood. I may not be queer, or gender non conforming, but I've always been surrounded by others who are. Classmates, neighbors, friends, partners. And the dedication with which these fucking cretins want to coldly remove them, as if they're some kind of tumor, some kind of malignant growth on society that poisons our collective whole... I don't even know what to do with it, really. I laid up, listening to the episode, thinking about how many people suffered needlessly through this disease, because their identity and position in society didn't make them worth basic consideration by the powers that be, or even their own contemporaries and neighbors. I thought about the murder of Johnathan Joss, and the rampant cruelty he and his partner went through at the hands of their neighbors for years beforehand for the basic fact of their sexuality. It's all just so fucking disgusting. I know that wallowing in it takes away from the joys that still exist in life. I know that queer people will still find happiness, still have good lives. But goddamn, they shouldn't have to struggle so fucking hard just to get basic decency. Just to get the recognition that their lives have inherent value, that their suffering is not *ignorable.* This one really hit for me, guys. Thank you for doing all you do. I never would've heard of this play otherwise, and I had a very weepy sleepless night listening to this very earnest episode. If it only gets 13 downloads I am one of them

P.A.L.

Glad to be one of the 13. Fascinating play to hear about, well outside my wheelhouse for references but honestly it sounds really good.

Rob F

Any thoughts about the play “Jeffrey”? I quite enjoy the film adaptation, but I’m totally unfamiliar with the original stage version

Steve Bunnell

My dad was studying epidemiology in DC in the early 80s, and he always talks about how incredibly odd and disturbing AIDS was from that standpoint. All of a sudden the hospitals started seeing these otherwise extremely healthy young men (among so many others, of course) showing up extremely ill from diseases that healthy humans were not "supposed" to be able to catch, much less die from. His reaction at the time was, "Hoo boy, this is a scary condition. I'm sure the government will act decisively to stem this...wait, what?"

Lawley Barnett

I for one love to hear you guys talk about stuff you're passionate about, and having not heard of it just means you're sharing it with me It's an entirely different kind of podcast episode Loved it

Tory Gordon

I needed this today. When it comes to fight, flight, or freeze, I'm a big ol' freezer, and I've been in something of a perpetual freeze for about 7 years. I'm working so hard to break out of it, but it's so hard. But when it comes down to it, the thing I remember is that I've got to live. I'm not allowed to be a ghost. Which also why I'm commenting. Rich yelled and was a magnificent asshole to prove his existence when he felt like he was disappearing, and I'm commenting. I'm going to keep fighting to live. Thanks for all you do, boys.

Sewing Savage

Such a well produced episode, I really enjoyed listening and even switched from scrolling Twitter to playing solitaire as a second screen so I could really lock in and listen LOL But fr, love you guys. Always a pleasure

ABear

I loved this episode. I honestly really appreciate your theatre episodes, the Visitor got me to show Hyenas to a bunch of people. These are great ways of finding new things that will absolutely emotionally wreck me. I would genuinely pay to have audio productions of obscure plays by y'all. I don't think it would be any less true to the stage production, than a film version would be.

Thomas Noriega

Brilliant ep, hearing about plays I'd never encounter on my own with such insightful and personal commentary is one of the reasons I've been signed up for so long

mimsycast

This episode got me to order As Is from my library, the theater and obscure source material episodes are my absolute favorites from y'all.

John Leavitt

Shoutout to anyone who has slept on the floor of the Theatre For The New City and shoutout specifically to anyone who unknowingly hit on Danny Strong at their friend’s gallery opening in 2011. Also in 1990 in HIV/AIDS related media there was an hour long ABC primetime feature of music videos of modern covers of Cole Porter songs by indie directors in-between pleas for action and information on the disease by celebs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_%2B_Blue - which I mention cause it was one of my favorite albums growing up and I had no context for why Debbie Harry and Iggy Pop where singing Would You Evah on Saint Mark’s Place but only that it was kind of the last gap of that particular kind of east village https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3YSYe601F0&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

John Leavitt

Also check out Gentrification Of The Mind where one of the main arguments is that AIDS not only killed off an generation of artists but also a generation of audiences AND a generation of rent controlled apartments and this was actively encouraged by state and federal policy to kill off undesirables https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/intellectual-property-sarah-schulmans-the-gentrification-of-the-mind/ - nice double with WHO KILLED NEW YORK about the extensive top down effort to kill off the social democracy NYC built over the midcentury, stuff like City College etc etc

Léandre

The reading segments were so good! Great editing to make them sound separate from the commentary and great acting from everyone involved! I for sure am on of the few who are always a sucker for theater ep episodes

Ghostly

I loved this episode. Cried like a baby during the monologues towards the end

Dellamoux

Absolutely the coolest fucking episode. I learned so much. Thank you 🙏🙏🙏

Gorbant

I haven't read the book for this play, so I appreciate your recap of it and scene studies. Hearing it made me consider something that has been on my mind frequently as older gay friends of mine who survived the plague start to pass -- what it means to die with dignity. I think that is another undercurrent in this play, and dignity is such an important part of how the LGBT community came together in the 80s. I think often of an experience I had about ten years ago (I promise that this indeed happened). A relative of mine was the youngest part of a doctor-architect-therapist-duke polycule (he was the model turned therapist, the duke was from titled european money). Three of them survived the plague, but by the 2010s only he and the duke were left. The polycule had pooled their money to buy "the castle" in the hills south of San Jose. My relative gave me the chance to visit his partner ("an old man I take care of") at the castle, knowing that his life was growing short. When I got there, the duke welcomed us in the foyer looking haggard and wearing a sleeping gown. Even so, we treated it like a formal visit, and were walked through the entirely glass "sexy" shower, past the Rembrandt in the bedroom he couldn't use, through the hallway with the Faberge egg, and into a salon covered in gold leaf panels. Though the duke didn't partake, we had tea and cheap snacks he liked serving guests. We discussed the most recent gossip in baroque revival chairs. It was clear that my relative wanted to give him as normal a visit as possible, bringing back a bit of the raucous parties and socials the polycule held all of the time there. We left when he was finally falling asleep in his chair, a sweet but fragile man who hated being seen as old and dying. The duke had already told my relative to "find someone younger to love and fuck," and to let him go. He refused to sign a will even until the end because it was a sign of his mortality. Even so, my relative took care of him. He wanted the man to be able to die with dignity, and to experience things that made him feel like himself right until the end. I think part of that came from them seeing so many friends die without any dignity at all. More came from the mortal fear I think most gay men face about growing old alone. I think about that visit a lot.

Moppie

I haven’t read the play nor seen it performed, but this episode still hit me really hard. I think you did a beautiful job discussing the play and its historical context, to the extent that I’m inspired to seek it out. Happy to be one of the >13 to listen.

J

I was kinda distracted listening to most of this episode, and then that hospital bed monologue by Rich hits me like slamming into a brick wall at 60mph

Miss Venom

Seriously, what a wonderful performance. I was tearing up in the middle of my job.

Adi

Happy Pride to all the other queer autistic twoapw heads, hope you see a train today

Michael Morgan

One of the 13 saluting back, loved this episode

Kyle Clark

Not queer but an autistic cishet ally, and on the walk home, I saw a single NS Dash 40 tearing ass along the old PRR Lines West. And I thought, Go Off, King! Such a powerful vibe, seeing a locomotive older than my dad just running majestcly through Ohio.

Kyle Clark

Fuck NS, but you gotta love a Dash 40 running solo on the old PRR Main Line.

Anthony Pugliese

This episode made me weep in a way that I have not in a long time. The little triumphs in the greater crushing struggle against the disease, the bleak social context, the tragedy. I learned so much, thank you Bravo. The earnestness and genuineness behind this podcast has made it a fast favorite of mine. Yall are so so wonderful

Tess

Beautiful and devastating

Furidashi

As someone who works a tedious logistics job, I appreciate the theater eps most of all, because it reminds me of a time in high school and college when I hoped I make a living doing lighting and sound design. Every time I hear you guys talk about performing I move one step closer to quitting my shitty job and trying to make a go of it. So, regardless of THE NUMBERS, you have to keep making these episodes to push me to not suck.

Quentin Baker

Thanks for making me cry in my office parking lot to the point where a coworker came over to check on me! But regarding queer community: I think a lot about how much we lost with the men who died during this time. So much of modern queer culture and even broader conversations about queer people is silently molded by the missing generation that would have been interacting with the up and coming queer youth. Of the three gay men over 60 I have had extended conversations with, two of them came out as older adults. The other one, a wonderful LA queen who lived through it all, is so fierce in the face of the future because he has really seen the worst of it. And I think about how some guys my age and younger are afraid of getting old (I.e. gay death at 30) and aren’t aware of the amazing gift we have that we can even think about what we might be like beyond 30. And I am both saddened and filled with hope? We’re entering a period where queer culture can have real matriarchs and patriarchs (and theytriarchs) and really emerge into another deeper beauty if we accept it.

Morgan Byrd

I love the theater episodes. Y’all should do as many of these as you want as far as I’m concerned. This was deeply affecting.

Neverlost22

Never heard of it before, but it sounds great!

I Make Devon Say This Out Loud

I swear to fucking God. Listening to this podcast is like hanging out with your gay Uncles in the evening and listening to them making dumb jokes and the worst puns you can imagine. Then just before they tell you to go to bed a very pale, gaunt man dressed in a tuxedo comes into the room and tells you something so gut-punchingly sad that you can't help but cry yourself to sleep. And then you wake up the next day and everyone pretends the sad man in the Tuxedo never existed. But you know. You know he will be back.

Evelyn

Gods this was a good episode. Thanks for doing this. I've never really been a theater person, but you folks doing theater episodes makes me really want to expand into theatrical writing. I'm up for any amount of obscure theater you folks want to cover

Sam Milne

I would listen to a full radio play adaptation of this. Loved hearing your interpretation

Wilko

Loved the episode. Loved it.

Herman Bergkvist

This was genuienly incredible and why you guys are a step above the other media analysis podcasts. As a young (24) queer, it feels so strange hearing about our history and just how little connection we have to the AIDS crisis nowadays, and just fathoming the scale of it. I do however remember one thing, although it was way back in 2019 so I dont remember the details exactly. When I was just a baby queer, only out for not even half a year, me and my partner at the time went to a performance from a gay choir which has been around since 1982. There were around 30 singers, and for one performance everyone wore black, except two people who wore white. They were the *only* choir members who lived through the AIDS crisis.

Luckie

One of my favorite episodes is the one about The Visit. I have been desperately searching for a chance to see that show. I think this recent episode had the same effect, now I have 2 plays I need to see.

Elizabeth Power

“You would go to a funeral and find out that someone else’s funeral was in a couple days” “Of all the men who were in that chorus, only one is still alive.“ Well, dang, that kind of puts things in perspective, it makes you want to appreciate your life doesn’t it? Thanks for this episode. It made me realize that so much of what I know about AIDS and this era of time I learned from theatre. I had never heard of this play until this episode, but now I want to see it. I was glad I was able to hear the parts where everyone is talking on top of each other, because just reading it like that wouldn’t have been as effective. The performances of the parts you read I were so powerful, I could picture it in my head. The person doing the hospice worker part was particularly excellent. Also, I am a proud member of the 13 and will listen to you talk about niche things that you like all day. Please keep doing more episodes like that, especially about theater, those episodes are always my absolute favorite, even if I’ve never heard of the thing and it often gives me an excuse to read a play or something. The philosophical summoning up of why this is important is often one of the best parts of an episode. Thanks for reminding everybody to go out and live.

Ken Starnes

I had never heard of this play, and absolutely loved it. Thank you guys.

GJ Gavigan

Great episode, had no idea about this play and glad to know more now. Especially loved the work you did acting scenes out, the Rich scene especially absolutely broke me. Not just the monologue but the way you both played off each other and filled the space as they argue at the end. Beautiful <3

Saengchaen

Thank you for this. This means everything.

CandyBean

I love these episodes. Please keep sharing these “not popular” works of art ❤️

shinji's got the yips

Such a profound, moving, informative episode. More of this please. Those of us who are products of cloistered evangelical communities really need to hear these stories told with such depth and nuance. Bravo. On an unrelated note – the struggle over the title "As is" reminded me of an unhinged portion of an exam response I typed in a caffeinated panic in grad school: "...that is, it is, in its own way,..."

Jared Whalen

So warming to read all these comments. Just finished this and was very moved by it -- both by the play itself, which i'd never come across, and the deep and nuanced connection Brian brings to it, which AJ and Josh complement so wonderfully. Thank you all so much for sharing this.

Caroline

thank you for this comment ❤️

Caroline

late listening to this, but thanks all y’all for sharing. brian, i love your mind and your heart so much ❤️

Heather

I always like to hear about plays from y’all because I very rarely . . . truly *get*plays. It’s not a medium I find easy to engage with or follow, and I find the context and ways of thinking you bring to plays to be very interesting and helpful in making not just these plays, but plays in general, more accessible to me. ETA: Which is to say, thank you for the obscure plays eps, I super appreciate them.

Heids

Genuinely spectacular episode guys, incredibly well done