Home
Creators
Search Recent Random
Posts
Search DMs Popular Hash Lookup Tags Random
Importer
Import FAQ
Register Favorites Keys Review DMs Logout
Community
Telegram ThePornDude
Home Creators Posts Import Register Favorites Logout

Buffy Sundays! Season 7 Episode 2 Reaction! (Patreon)

Published:
2025-10-12 17:31:04
Imported:
2026-08
Tags:

Content

####### EPISODE SPOILER REVIEW BELOW! APPARENTLY SOME OF YOU ARE WATCHING FOR THE FIRST TIME ALONG SIDE ME, SO PLEASE DON'T READ BEYOND THIS POINT UNTIL YOU HAVE SEEN THE EPISODE YOURSELF! ######

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SYOSYXD4mIjdXLF1H3DKINFSx69nEoBX/view?usp=sharing

------

Ok, aside from the 'obvious' reason I wouldn't like this episode, I loved it!! But the ending is one of those where it dominates me review afterwards. I just want to make that clear, if it seems like I didn't enjoy it at any point! XD

I am loving how 'simple' the enemies of the week have been in Season 7 so far! It really feels like a shout out to the show's past, and I am loving seeing it!

I have to admit.. I am not sure what or how I 'should' feel about Spike at this moment, I look forward to seeing where it goes, but right now, I am struggling to feel bad for him. :(

Hope you are well, lovelies!!

As always, if you click the video just after this post, you may need to  download it first.  This should be fixed in a couple of hours!

Comments

Madikuma95

Ah, the infamous blue shirt. XD

Jake M

"Bath is like an hour and a half away from me" Well your hygeine is impeccable so I assume shower is closer ;P

JosieMorita

And that's one of the many issues I have with Xander. He's been on Angel's case since forever but when he started dating Anya it was completely irrelevant for him that she tortured men for a thousand years (and also went straight back to it when given the chance). One rule for me, one rule for thee!

Jake M

I'd be fascinated to know why people (including yourself) can't forgive Spike (a literal demon, without a soul) but are perfectly willing to forgive Willow (who r*ped Tara in the musical episode), Faith (who r*ped Buffy and Riley in the body swap, and Xander in "Consequences") and Buffy (who tried to assault Spike while invisible but he kicked her out after she grabbed his stake). I don't think any of them should be. To quote Spike- "Hello, Vampire. What's your excuse?"

Jake M

Clarification: Not defending Spike. I don't forgive any of them- I personally don't think many of the characters are particularly likeable in later seasons. But I just think the whole topic of SA and rape has been really badly handled by the writers.

VeggieGamer

I am so sorry, I genuinely don't remember the Tara scene. I'll need to go back and watch it. As for the Faith scene, I think I did say how disgusting it was what she did. And Buffy going beyond Spike's boundaries, you rightly point out, it very bad and shouldn't be seen as a 'comedy' moment. But comparing these to what Spike did despite Buffy's reaction in the moment, does feel like a different level to me. I am no expert, but that scene felt like it went out of it's way to change our perception of the character, which is why I am struggling to see where this is going. I feel the other scenes didn't, while being very creepy and unexcusable.

Jake M

It's not entirely your fault, it's not presented as r**e, but Willow sleeping with Tara (it's the "Under Your Spell" song) can be considered such because Tara is magically drugged to make her compliant. She was angry with Willow, and would not have given consent were she not brainwashed into forgetting their argument. This is exactly my point that you've hit on- Spike's scene is presented (by the writers) as being a groundbreaking moment, whereas the others are generally forgotten about within an episode or two (Xander flinching when Faith's name is mentioned is a one-time joke at the end of said episode, for example). I think the writers handle the subject dreadfully. P.S. I love how NOW you're censoring the title of Mast Forecast even though you've mentioned it a million times before XD

Madikuma95

Oh I have a degree in animation, too! (Not that I've done anything with it lmao)

Alicia P

Ah, the Spike conundrum. I remember really not liking this storyline at the time and being really sick of the Spike character at this point. I felt the re-ensoulment was an Angel re-tread, and that, because Spike was such a popular character, the show kept him on even though they really didn't know what to do with him. I think some of that is still true but, with age, I am hoping I will come away with a new perspective on it this time around. I feel "Are we ready to forgive Spike?" is actually not the correct question to ask at this time. I certainly don't forgive him at this point, and it's not just about the attempted rape, it's about all of the selfish, brutal acts we've seen him commit on the show. Buffy just found out that he got his soul back, and she is horrified. So she is clearly not there yet, either, in my perception. I think a better question is "do we believe someone who has done what he has done, and is now clearly grappling with feelings of guilt and wanting to atone, is truly capable of rehabilitation?" Besides a soul standing in for a conscience IRL, the re-ensoulment process and subsequent feelings of shame, guilt, etc, also stand in for the process of going through therapy (or withdrawal / rehab if you want to look at it as an addiction metaphor). If Spike can show that he is meaningfully sorry and therefore is taking the appropriate actions that must come from that, then I think there is a possible path to forgiveness. To this day, I try to keep in mind Giles's words on forgiveness from season 2 when I am struggling with that -- "To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's not done because people deserve it, it's done because they need it." And it's not just the person who did the wrong that needs it. The person who was wronged needs to eventually really do it, too, in order to move on. Sorry for the long comment and I hope I didn't answer more than you were ready for!

VeggieGamer

Thanks Alicia! This was an awesome comment! And don't worry, you didn't say more than you should, and definitely gave me food for thought regarding the Spike situation!

VeggieGamer

I am seriously worried my take as rubbed people the wrong way. This entire show I have given you my genuine opinion. I am sorry if my take on this one wasn't what you were hoping, guys.

Elizabeth Rose

Spike, on his quest with the demon last season, was never trying to kill Buffy. He only ever uses phrases that could be interpreted two ways like “take care of the Slayer” and “give Buffy what she deserves,” which the writers did as a misdirect for us, to hide the fact that he was asking for his soul, so it could be a big dramatic twist at the end of the episode. But then they failed to really communicate that his soul WAS what he was after all along, so it remained confusing until the writers clarified in interviews and things. The blue shirt on Spike is very deliberately weird! Because Spike is trying desperately to PRETEND things are normal, because he has no idea who he is now or how to be whoever this is. He even says about it, in his ramblings in the final scene, “Costume. Didn’t work.” Angelus didn’t try to assault Buffy in that way, but he outright tried to murder Buffy and murdered several people she knew deliberately for the purpose of hurting her. I find people are generally WAY more ready to accept Angelus and Angel as different people than they are Spike without and with his soul. Angel uses a different name and has a more dramatic Jekyll/Hyde personality shift, and I’ll go into why I think that is another time, but whatever distinction exists between Angelus and Angel also exists between Soulless Spike and Souled Spike. I personally think it’s a little more complicated than just TOTALLY separate entities, but I do feel there is SOME separation between them. I can understand eventually accepting THIS new version of Spike, while I would NOT be interested in his redemption if he hadn’t made that massive change in who he is. It also matters to me that he CHOSE this, he WANTED to become someone who was capable of stopping being a monster. Depending how much you view Soulless & Souled as different people, Soulless Spike was so horrified by what he'd done that he chose, in a way, to end his own EXISTENCE, so a version of him with the potential to be better could exist instead. I honestly love that final scene in the church. I never saw it as making me forgive the horrible thing he did, nothing makes that okay, but it DID make me feel for the extremely different person that he’s become (who is genuinely suffering, desperate to make things right and fearing it's impossible, and really trying to work through it), and potentially accept him for who he is now down the road. I’m slightly annoyed by Buffy’s little flash of a PTSD-like reaction in this episode…. don’t get me wrong, I'm not annoyed at HER, she SHOULD have trauma from what happened, but the writers have never allowed her to, so just throwing it in for a second now feels off to me? The story of “Spike assaults Buffy” has been (unfortunately) 100% centred on Spike, so this feels like, “Remember that thing Spike did to Buffy 5 episodes ago? Look, Buffy has trauma from that, too! Anyway, back to Spike’s feelings….” It's too little too late, in my opinion.

Alicia P

Not at all, I love hearing your takes (i love hearing and reading everyone's takes on this show) and the Spike topic is one that is very ripe for discussion. It's great when people have different or conflicting takes, that's what makes this such an amazing show, even in these later seasons.

Elizabeth Rose

I certainly wasn't rubbed the wrong way by anything you said! Love sharing your journey through the show and hearing your thoughts on it. My long rambling comment, lol, was only meant to be sharing some of my thoughts in return :)

Jake M

Didn't rub me, for one! Excellent reaction as always :)

Jordan McLaren

You're totally valid for your opinions, no need to apologise! Regarding Spike, I've always been on the same page as where you are now. To be honest, I was never the biggest fan of him, but Season 6 forever tainted the way I view him as a character, even before the bathroom scene. A disgusting, emotionally and physically abusive monster. If the writers' intent was to make the audience feel sorry for him, so soon after attempting to SA Buffy, then I think they catastrophically failed in my opinion. I don't care that he left to get his soul out of "remorse", because it doesn't make any sense; it's a case of the writers bending the rules of the world to accommodate Spike, which has been a consistent problem for seasons now. The whole point of being soulless is the inability to feel guilt, but not with Spike for some reason. Now that he has a soul, all we can do is judge him for how he acts going forward. On a side note, the writing of his scenes in the last few episodes of S6 is truly terrible: it was intentionally misleading, to the point of being gibberish in hindsight. Blathering on about his chip and calling Buffy a "bitch" who's "going to see a change" and is going to "get what's coming to her". The fact that so many first-time viewers think he was tricked into getting his soul by the demon is proof that the writers failed if you ask me. I don't have too much to say about Xander and Anya, other than it's understandable to still be annoyed by him, and also appreciate that Anya is definitely doing evil things, even if has been played for laughs up to this point. Part of the reason I don't really rewatch S6 or 7 is because all the characters become so unlikable that I'm not really rooting for any of them. Looking forward to getting into S4 of Angel!

Garfnob

slightly off topic. as you are on the last season will you be taking suggestions and having a poll for what replaces Buffy? if yes. any idea when we should send suggestions?

Maia Brodsky

Yeah, Faith's scene with Xander is arguably even worse. She was trying to kill him while sexually assaulting him. And she has a soul. It really boggles my mind how people are willing to give her a chance after doing that (and much more, to Riley, Buffy, Wesley, etc.) but hold a soulless vampire to a higher standard for doing something that actual humans have done on this show, and in real life. Basically half the cast of the Buffyverse have done some REALLY messed up things, but I've never seen anyone get more hate than Spike. He's the one who had to fight against his demon nature to seek out his soul (Angelus would never), and yet the human characters with functioning consciences are often forgiven for transgressions. Just to be clear, I love Faith and Angel and Willow and all the other main cast members who hurt their loved ones in awful ways. I just hate double standards.

Maia Brodsky

Again, I'm always astounded by how polarizing season 6 and the Spike/Buffy relationship is. Prior to Seeing Red, and overall since Spike got his chip in season 4, I always found Buffy to be the more abusive one between the two, especially when accounting for her hero status and his lack of conscience. Her treatment of Spike - hitting him when he can't hit back, using him for demon fighting (and later sex) while treating him like scum, taking advantage of his feelings for her - constitutes some of my biggest qualms with her as a person.

Jake M

Whereas the worst my favourite (Giles) has done is drug Buffy and murder Ben! But do we think Ben was working with Glory? 🤔😆

Jake M

I think a lot of horrible things are played for laughs in Buffy- that's probably why there's so much argument amongst fans!

Bruce Woodcock

Veggie, what you are feeling towards Spike it a very common, although irrational, human emotion. Spike's assault of Buffy is very recent in your mind, and you actually saw it in harsh visual detail. Like many people, you find it much harder to forgive something that "just happened" rather than something that happened a long time ago. Logically, however, this shouldn't matter. Spike didn't have a soul then, and he has a soul now. He's essentially a different person in the same body. Angelus raped women (Holtz's wife for example), ATE BABIES, mentally tortured Drucilla before turning her, and you forgave Angel for it because Angel isn't Angelus and most of that happened off-screen. He killed Jenny and did what he did with her body to torment Giles. And what about Giles? How quickly you forgave him for violating Buffy's body when he injected her with drugs to neutralize her powers. And he had a soul the entire time. You're right that at the end of season 6 there was language making it seem like Spike wanted revenge on Buffy, not to earn her forgiveness. That was deliberately obscure in order to hide the twist of getting his soul back, and some of what he said doesn't make sense in light of that. Regardless, he has a soul now, and I did feel sorry for him in this scene, because after he tried to rape Buffy, he realized he couldn't live with himself as a man who would do that. He wanted to be a better man, a real man, someone worthy that Buffy could love. And now he's tormented over it, because the soul makes him feel what he did to her even more, and all the other terrible things he did, and gives him the realization that she might not forgive him for what he did.

Maia Brodsky

I actually haven't watched your reaction yet, because that final scene of the episode is one of my favorites across the whole show (possibly my absolute favorite), so I have to be in a good mental space to watch you hate on it. I've seen it bring some reactors to tears, but some others not so much. But Veggie, usually your takes are politely stated and not poorly received on my part, even when I strongly disagree with you. I think you shouldn't worry so much about rubbing people the wrong way. You're just being honest about your opinions. Personally, I appreciate the portrayal of the toxic relationship between Buffy and Spike in season 6, and Spike's character arc serves as a source of healing for me. I was subjected to SA by a friend and later an ex-boyfriend back in my college days. I don't usually bring that up in BtVS discussions, because while I know some other SA survivors feel the same way as me, plenty of others feel the complete opposite. I probably won't end up going into much detail about why it means so much to me. It's a very touchy subject, and at the end of the day, you're not going to agree with everyone when the handling of the subject matter is so polarizing. I, for one, appreciate your honesty, even if it means listening to interpretations I strongly disagree with. I'll definitely watch your reaction soon enough, and I'll let you know my thoughts on your thoughts. I'm sure they'll end up being much more tame than you're making them out to be.

Maia Brodsky

Regarding your final paragraph - I thought about it, and it's really par for the course for the Buffyverse. Willow's abuse of Tara's mind was centered on Willow's feelings and struggle with addiction. Faith's abuse of.... everyone was centered on Faith's instability and self-loathing. Buffy's abuse of Spike was centered on Buffy's resurrection trauma - she beat his face into a bloody pulp and the writers made it about her. This actually isn't a criticism on my part, though. A lot of the stories of Buffyverse relationships are told from the perspective of the abuser. I mean, look at Angel's whole backstory, for example. His character is all *about* his feelings toward his evil deeds and changing himself for the better. These shows are full of examinations of why people do bad things, what leads them into darkness, but also themes of redemption and forgiveness. The path forward out of the darkness. The entire franchise is centered on second chances, so it makes sense for them to center the feelings of the people who currently need to put the work in and try to change.

Ashley Evers

And now you see why I think that the assault scene was a writing mistake. The point of that story beat was to push Spike to realize that without a soul, he could never be someone that could love Buffy the way she deserved to be loved. (They did deliberately deceive you about his motives, but he only ever said he wanted Buffy to ‘get what she deserved’ when he left). It makes sense for his character, and I’ve always actually liked the fact that even as a soulless, and therefore presumably fundamentally immoral vampire, he *chose* to try to make himself a better man. But it is absolutely disgusting to me that they put Buffy, the main character, through such a visceral, traumatic experience for *someone else’s character growth*. The fact that she entertained him at all in this episode doesn’t feel right for her character at all. Even if we accept the premise that Spike is now truly a different person, the way that we always forgive Angel for anything that Angelus has done, the fact is that wouldn’t lessen Buffy’s trauma in the slightest. If you can’t look at Spike the same way after that moment, I find it incredibly unlikely that she wouldn't have a similar visceral response. It just feels like this whole plot point isn’t really about her, and that’s gross to me.

Madikuma95

After reading the other comments I'm actually gonna disagree (surprising, I'm sure!) because I feel mostly positive towards the Buffy/Spike storyline. Like to me this is a journey these two characters are going through together, even if the path gets very thorny and twisted sometimes. Interestingly, I asked my mom and she says she always thought Spike was trying to get his soul back, rather than getting the chip removed. And I actually like Spike's words being ambiguous ("give Buffy what she deserves") because you can look back on it and be like "oh THAT'S what he meant!"

Maia Brodsky

Reminding myself to come back to this at a later point in the season. I get why you (and many others) are put off by the centering of Spike's character development in this situation, but I always saw these developments as a significant step in Buffy's own character growth as well, but I'll have to wait a bit to explain why, just to be on the safe side. But basically, I don't see her demeanor as out of character here. She can be alarmed by his presence and care about him at the same time. I've felt that way about certain people before.

Goblin

I feel like this Spike plotline throws a lot of people, so it's fully expected to get a lot of differing views. I also wanna preface this by saying this is purely me explaining why I view this plot stuff the way I do ! If it comes off as anything other than that, that was not the intention. Also, apologies for stating a lot of things that may be very obvious as I try to get my thoughts out <3 Right, so I've always assumed it's partly viewed differently because Spike (as a soulless vampire) acts so incredibly unlike other vampires we've seen. The man is a complete anomaly when it comes to his behavior and choices, case in point with him choosing to end his life by getting his soul back (by handing the reins back to William.) A lot of the time he is shown to feel and do things that don't fully align with what we see from other soulless characters. I don't think it's a stretch to say that, on rare occasions, Spike will behave in ways that almost makes us question how he's able to do or feel certain things, given what we know of vampires. (Look at how he is with Dawn or Joyce, for example.) I feel like it's just something we don't explore in the same way with Angel and Angelus. I think if someone only saw the last few episodes they wouldn't be able to piece together the fact that a vampire getting their soul back makes you a completely separate, different person. Getting your soul in this show isn't a vague, intangible framework of morality that suddenly gets switched on. It's been presented as your human half coming back to the front desk and forcing the demon that's been wearing your skin to some dark corner somewhere to be locked up indefinitely. But the Spike stuff is such a complicated thing to process in the moment because we don't get that super, incredibly obvious shift between personalities like we do with Angel/Angelus. When Angelus does something atrocious directly to or in front of our main cast, it's almost always shown to be an issue of "I know YOU weren't responsible for this, but I can't help but think of it when I look at you because you share a face with Angelus" He gets hit with a more secondhand guilt, for the most part? The direct guilt/blame that Angel gets is almost always coming from himself despite not being in control of his body when Angelus pulls anything heinous. But strangely I feel like that separation of self hasn't been applied much to Spike here (and a lot of folks watching don't seem to do that either, though I do absolutely understand that the subject matter is very different and can turn people off from both Spike AND William in one fell swoop. That's completely fair! ) But, following the rules of the show.. Spike as we knew him is gone now. None of what we see or hear currently can come from the demon. What we're left with now is technically a character the gang hasn't met, one we've only glimpsed in a handful of flashbacks. Further complicated, admittedly, because this is THAT old victorian-era William, but after he's been bombarded with first-person hyper-realistic memories of a demon's experiences, feelings, desires, etc, which has no doubt messed up his own identity to a crazy degree. As someone watching I think that's very hard to process, and I feel the writing itself does almost nothing to distinguish that colossal change in him. Buffy met *William* for the first time EVER in the basement last episode, isn't it weird to think about how that wasn't addressed? I feel like they've kept the split personalities/beings and the shift in him purposefully muddied ((and extra complicated alongside him fully losing his mind over the soul-getting of course.)) This is a long-winded way of saying I do feel bad for William, I truly believe he is innocent in all of it. It doesn't mean I want Buffy to welcome him into her life (I feel like they've been doing well with the obvious tension from everyone so far btw), but the way I see it this man has probably just "woken up" with the jumbled memories of 200(?) odd years of a demon piloting his body. Seeing all of that happening from your perspective, feeling like those are your memories, all the while being able to feel what Spike felt while he did all of it?? Insane. It would feel wrong of me to blame him (William, I mean) for that, though. Especially when we've really hammered home the fact that Angel & Angelus are separate beings who just happen to share memories. I hope all of that makes sense, I am so very sleepy and ill as I ramble this out. :')

Maia Brodsky

Wow. I'm working on drafting my thoughts for my comment on this episode, and you addressed a lot of the stuff I didn't even touch on. All of this is spot-on imo

thompur

Do not/do NOT/ DO NOT worry about "rubbing people the wrong way" with your reactions. That's why we are here, to get your honest reaction. As you've seen over the last 6 seasons, 9, if you include Angel, if you get something wrong in a factual sense, we will correct you. ;-)

Hanneli Norrgard

It's because female characters can do whatever they want and get away with it. There's a huge double standard that most won't talk about or will even defend when it comes to these things, whether it be on TV, in movies, or even in real life. Personally, I also think people cut way too much slack to Giles, too, when he drugged Buffy, but had he raped someone, there would be no slack given.

Mrs Julia RS

Angel killed Jenny! And he was forgiven 🤷‍♀️

Maia Brodsky

I've finished your reaction (finally), and first of all, I want to say, I was right - your takes were not nearly as controversial as you made them out to be. The Blue Spike comments gave me a chuckle. As others have pointed out, his 'costume' is intended to be incredibly jarring. Amusing but dark side note: You, Anya, and Spike were the only ones who were sad about the dog. Nancy loses major points with me for not seeming to care in the slightest about what happened to Rocky. I will try to be as thoughtful as possible in writing this comment, so hopefully I can communicate my thoughts to you adequately. No worries, I will only be discussing things that have happened up until and including this episode. I think I understand (at least partly) why the final scene didn't land for you, and I feel the same way about it as I felt when you had that negative reaction to Giles telling Anya that Xander saved the world. It makes sense that you also compared it to that scene, because your reaction was similar. If you recall, I commented at the time that I felt you perhaps misinterpreted the point of the scene. It's not meant to show that Anya forgives Xander for leaving her at the altar - of course she doesn't. Clearly, Anya's attitude toward Xander in this episode (7×2) is enough proof that the writers had no intention of leading us to think that Anya got over what Xander did just because he saved everyone. (Giles wasn't trying to imply to her that Xander is so great, btw, as you do keep saying that. He stated the fact that Xander had saved the world, and smiled, bc of course he would be relieved and proud of Xander too.) I said in my comment that I loved the emotional nuance of that moment, because it displayed how Anya can be angry with him and proud of him at the same time. And Emma nailed that portrayal imo, using facial expression alone. Human emotion is never one-note, and good fiction (and acting) will often reflect that. I believe the same thing is going on here, in the church scene. You were so distressed by your concerns about what the writers were trying to convey that it took you out of the moment, and of course that would harm your immersion in the scene and the characters (I now see you did address this by the end of your discussion.) But the point of the scene is *not* to wash away Spike's sins, including what he did to Buffy. It's meant to show how desperately he *wants* to wash them away, not just what he did to her, but everything he ever did as a vampire. All the people he's hurt and killed. It's meant to show how a soul is so entirely devastating for a vampire with his past, to a degree he never could have imagined when he didn't have one. ("Angel - he should've warned me.") My take on the church scene: the bathroom scene is not being pushed aside or swept under the rug here - quite the opposite. It was something that brought even soulless Spike such shame and disgust with himself that he chose to defy his very nature to try to be something better. Among all the horrible deeds he's committed over the course of a century-plus of remorselessly indulging his demonic nature, deeds that are worse than anything he did to Buffy, it was that one horrible violation of this one particular person that pushed him over the edge. And that it pushed him toward the light (trying to change for the better) instead of further into the darkness (doubling down on his evil nature), even without a soul, is nothing short of miraculous. Buffy understands all of this. She has way more experience with the concept of a re-ensouled vampire than Spike himself, because of her past with Angel. She knows how insane it is for a soulless vampire to *choose* this path. It's the harshest form of penance he could've possibly chosen for himself. Worse than dusting himself, even, if you consider the suffering involved. She also knows that there's no way that Spike could have anticipated just how badly that soul would torture him. She understands how the reality of it must have completely blindsided him, because someone who's spent so long without a conscience cannot concieve of what true remorse feels like. Despite (and also because of) what he did to her, she is horrified that he sought out his soul *for* her. Not just because Spike having a soul complicates her feelings about his culpability for what he did to her, but also because despite everything, the weight of a soul on a vampire with Spike's extensive and brutal history is a burden I doubt she would wish on anyone. It's like an existential form of self-harm. It's sickening to think someone did that to themselves for you. She saw what it did to Angel. She's horrified at the thought of Spike going through the same thing. She doesn't always show it (sometimes to my frustration), but Buffy really does have a great deal of empathy. She can be disgusted and incensed at the sight of him and also feel for him and lament his pain, all at the same time. And like Emma, Sarah portrays all of these subtleties through her tone and facial expressions, with very little dialogue. Truly a masterclass in acting from both her and James at the end of this episode. I felt it was a bit unfortunate that you didn't appreciate it the way some viewers do, but oh well. We can't all see eye to eye when it comes to interpretations of fictional media. But for the sake of your own enjoyment of the show, it might help you to try to temper the knee-jerk assumption that the writers want "instant forgiveness" from the other characters and/or from the viewers for everyone's fuck-ups. I'm still not happy with Willow's dive off the deep end of dark magic or Anya's selfish return to vengeance, for example, but that doesn't mean I don't care about them and what they're going through. Your opinions are what they are, and I appreciate that you're genuine with us about them. That's really the most important thing to keep in mind. But personally, I think BtVS does a good job of letting viewers make up their own minds about the events and characters. For almost every conflict that comes up in this show, every action that annoys or enrages some or most of us, there will be someone else out there defending it and taking the other side. These writers are flawed, just like the characters, but I really don't think they're collectively trying to push a particular agenda on us at any point, as evidenced by the fact that vigorous debate about any and all elements of the story persists to this day. Example of this: You feel that the men in this series get easily forgiven and the women don't, whereas I feel like it's the complete opposite. And ironically enough, you happen to be a man and I happen to be a woman, so I don't think it's likely to be gender bias or anything that leads us to these different positions. I think characters like Faith, Anya, and Willow, and Buffy as well, get WAY too much slack from the writers and from many fans, while male characters like Angel, Oz, Riley, Xander, and Spike are held to a much more critical standard. Like the whole Riley situation with Xander's advice to Buffy. I think Riley was wrong in what he was doing behind Buffy's back, but not wrong in the things he said afterward, and Xander's insights and advice were pretty solid. She was treating Riley like a rebound and a convenience. And I don't even ship Buffy and Riley. Like, at all. That's just my objective take, and while some others agree with me, I certainly appear to be in the minority on that one. I only mention that because you brought it up again, and it's a good example of the diversity of opinions about this show. The writers aren't trying to spoon-feed us their own opinions, and no matter what take you have, someone out there will disagree with you.

Diego Zenhäusern

I haven't seen the show, so I have no clue how all of this is going to work out. I'll just say: If the writers at some point try to make it seem like Buffy would actually entertain a romantic relationship with Spike after what happened I'm gona be truly disgusted by them as people! And if they actually end up together then I guess season 7 of Buffy will just get the same status as the last two episodes of HYMIM: It never happened as far as I'm concerned.

Diego Zenhäusern

No worries here either! We are here to get you're reaction. If you have to pretend to feel different about something that defeats the entire point.

Diego Zenhäusern

I for my part actually think you're to forgiving of Xander. To me personally he's about the person that least deserves any kind of forgiveness! And not because what he's done was way worse than what other characters - whom I'm more willing to forgive - did. No not at all! Factually speaking what he did wasn't all that bad (at least no one got physicyll hurt or had serious traumo from it). But what rubs me the wrong way about it is how the show obviously wants us to be completely on his side and forgive him and thinks he's a great guy (As seen by Giles speech at the end of season 6). When he doesn't try to make up for anything he did and even worse DOESN'T EVEN seem to feel any real remorse for what he's done or how he's continuing to treat Anya. To explain a little further: Willo eventually realized what she'd done (assaulting Tara) was wrong and tried and succeeded in getting away from magic. So I was ready to give her another chance. Jonathan did a lot of fucked up shit. But eventuall he too realized what he'd done and even told Andrew they should go to prison for it. Again: Growth, remorse, willingness to take steps. And even Spike - in his very twisted way - realized his mistakes and tried to fix them by getting his soul back. (Though the show chose to go about it was pittyfull and disgustingly manipulativ. Because nearly no person would assume he wanted to get his soul back instead of removing the chip based on the way all of it was shot. So it was just a very, very, very cheap attemp at a shocking plottwist that failed utterly. Because until I've read the comments I still hadn't realized that Spike actually wanted his soul back. And that him saying so in this episode wasn't just another part of crazy Spike's rambling). But Xander on the other hand has not once admitted that it was his fault. Instead he's blaming Anya for not wanting to get back with him afterwards. And even worse he's blaming her for sleeping with Spike when they OFFICIALLY broke up mere hours before and so he has NO RIGHT AT ALL to expect her not to do whatever she wants with whomever she wants. Then he goes on all the time about how horrible it is to live without Anya and how heartbroken he is about it and how he's the real victim of all of this. Even though HE was the one who ended it by LEAVING HER AT THE ALTAR. And now the show is trying to act as if Xander's just a good guy.?And we shouldn't hold it against him?? And I say NO f* you show. Just because you obviously believe men should be forgiven for being misogynistig to an ex and not even feeling bad about it because they are "pretty decent" "most of the the time", doesnt mean I have to think so too!

Maia Brodsky

He did admit it was his fault, though. In the very episode after he left her at the altar, he said that there's a big hole inside of him and that he's the idiot that dug it out. He says, "I screwed up real bad." In 'Entropy,' he told Anya he deserves all her harsh words and that he hurt her and that he wants to take her hurt away. Idk why you think he hasn't owned up to his failure. I agree that he was a total hypocrite for judging Anya and Buffy for sleeping with Spike, but he never tried to deflect blame for standing Anya up at the wedding.

Hanneli Norrgard

How can anyone think the show is more forgiving of males? Willow literally tried to destroy the world a couple episodes ago, and we're supposed to just forgive her for that.

Diego Zenhäusern

Okay, I admit I might have been a bit hyberbolic here. But to me these moments don't really count all that much because: 1. Ever since Anya slept with Spike there is barely an interaction where he doesn't throw it in here face and blames her for his situation. 2. He might have said he's sorry and that he wants to take the hurt away. But I haven't seen him acting based on it. All he does is being confrontational and blame her 9 out of 10 times he sees her. He dosn't try to make up with her and he doesn't just go out of her way and let her decide if she wants to try it again or not. So to me all of this just feels as if the writers think: Well if you screwed up, you just say sorry a few times, don't change your behaviour afterwards and then everything will be alright. The girl just has to come back to you, independend of how you treat her after you apologized🤷‍♂️ So yeah, looking at it I think my biggest problem is not with Xander as a person bit with the message he seems to be supposed to embody...

Maia Brodsky

I tend to agree. I've always felt the men are held to a higher standard and that their troubles and traumas are either brushed aside or made into comedy, while the women are shown much more empathy and grace.

kinkin

The thing with spike and buffy is that throughout season 6 they were both abusive to each other, they were both the bad people in their toxic relationship and it all built up to that moment in seeing red. Every time buffy said no to sex with spike before that moment but she always ended up sleeping with him anyway, and every time she said they were done before that moment she would end up going back to him again. I'm not saying this to excuse spikes actions AT ALL its just showing a pattern that resulted in him going too far, in his mind all he was doing what he had in all previous interactions and buffy would sleep with him again because lets remember spike is a vampire, hes a demon he didn't have a soul, he has more of a moral compass than the average vampire but hes still a vampire. The difference is that he recognized that he went too far and hurt buffy and went through the trials to regain his soul so that he wouldn't hurt her again. You don't need to feel bad for him or forgive him at all just trying to provide more context, I feel like people forget that he literally was a soulless demon with no real morals or empathy, I truly believe he loves buffy in season 6 but because he doesn't have humanity it results in the twisted, obsessive, toxic display we see in previous seasons