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[CLOSED] - The Harry Potter Book Club! - Your Notes for Chapters 5, 6 & 7 of the Prisoner of Azkaban! (Patreon)

Published:
2022-12-16 16:17:07
Edited:
2023-01-07 17:59:29
Imported:
2026-08
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Content

HI GUYS! This part of the Book Club is now CLOSED!  See you next time! :)

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hi guys! Just wanted to say thanks for the support on the last Book Review, and sorry if I seemed off or not as energetic! I am already loving this book and I hope it didn't come off as if I am not!  Also, as always, thanks for the corrections and your patience with me when I get things wrong. There was a lot of info to cover!

Here is a chance to get your comment read out in the next Book review video!

If you are reading along with the reviews, we are covering chapters "The Dementor", "Talons and Tea Leaves" and "The Boggart in the Wardrobe"! So if you have any thoughts, opinions, comparisons or questions regarding these, please leave a comment below!

I do have to ask, try to keep them fairly short, like 4 or 5 sentences.  That way I can cover more when making the video.  Also try to keep them on subject and not referencing anything that we are yet to cover. Ideally, keep it to 1 comment each if you can (if you have more to say after commenting, you can edit it and add to it! :) ).  These are just rough guidelines rather than rules, I want to be able to fit in as many of you as possible! :)

OH! And if you would like to leave a comment but would rather I didn't read it out in the video, please feel free. Be sure to say you would rather it not be used in your comment.

Thanks, guys!! :)

Files

Comments

Jermaine Fang

Oh, Neville performs bad at potions, it must mean that he doesn't care, or he actually is perfectly good at potions, he just doesn't want to try, and he must be purposefully screwing up everything because he doesn't care about the class and his classmates. For real, if there is a deaf student in your class, struggling because they literally can't hear you, are you going to say they actually can hear perfectly fine, but doesn't want to try? And are you going to punish they for purposefully being bad? Have you ever considered that given how much a hard time Neville got from teachers, he would have been good if he can? But a student is struggling, so instead of actually help him, let's just punish him for not trying!

Jacob sparks

So an interesting thing about all the predictions we hear professor Trelawney make they all come true to some degree, just maybe not how we first think. Major predictions made so far. She tells parvati patil to beware a red hair man. You know from the movie Parvati identical twin sister is Ron's date to the Yule ball and that doesn't go well, so excuse Trelawney for getting the wrong sister. She says the class will have 1 less at Easter. Again from movie you know hermione leaves the class. She also predicted harry will be attacked and killed, well again from movie you know voldemort kills harry. He just happens to come back. Keep eye out for her other predictions.

Matthew T

One of my favourite side characters of the books is introduced here - Sir Cardogan! When I was younger I always imagined he looked and sounded like John Cleese in Monty python and the holy grail but acted like the knight that keeps fighting when they lose their limbs if you know that film. Still laugh so much when I reread it all those years later, and would love to hear what you think of him.

Kamilla Mari

You’re not supposed to mention too much about things happening later in the series. Even though he has watched the movies, it’s been a while, and these might be considered spoilers.

Jacob sparks

I'm sure he remembers these major things from the movies, they kind of major story points in the movies. I didn't mention how they different in the books or predictions he hasn't read yet

Raider Max

Had to delete my first comment because it was actually from Order not Azkaban (thank you very much Sara for catching that). All I have to say is The Boggart in the Wardrobe is definitive proof that while not evil, Snape is a mega butt munch.

Nix001

I love how the characters in the books are much more 'fleshed out' so to speak, such as professor Trelawney. In the movie so many of JKR's interesting characters were virtually glossed over or did not even feature given time constraints. 10 points to Hufflepuff for keeping my two-pennyworth short and not writing an essay - I've seen what's coming in this section!!!!! ;)

Jake M

Children are horrible. Harry's episode on the train is described by Ron as "some kind of fit"; can you imagine how people would react if Malfoy made fun of an epileptic seizure? There's also a condition called Non-Epileptic Attack Disorder (sorry, Veggie's dyslexia!) that can involve stress-induced seizures. So honestly, he has no excuse to be mocking him without some form of retribution from the teachers or other students. I still feel scandalised that Buckbeak gets the blame for Malfoy's idiocy in not listening to the teacher. If a Chemistry student burns themselves on a Bunsen burner because they were dumb enough to stick their hand over it, would the equipment get the blame? No. Also amazed he was allowed to milk the injury for so long without a teacher telling him to grow up and take the sling off. Lastly, I want to know how Lupin knows everyone's name by heart in the very first DADA class. Maybe the upside to being a werewolf is having a great memory?

Jake M

Interesting how many of Ron and Harry's made up predictions also come true, though, over the years. Makes you wonder if any old sod could teach Divination.

Florian

I am new to the Patreon, joined because of this book club. I really like how in the book, you do not immedeatly know that Professor Lupin is afraid of the moon. A younger person would not necessarily make the connection between Lupin's name meaning wolf. So him being a werewolf, is a nice twist.

Embran

Thanks to you I likely from now on imagine Stan of The Knight Bus as a young freckled version of Bob Grant as Jack Harper! Awesome! A pity Jack has the big teeth instead of big ears Knight Bus Stan got. I guess both would be too silly. The flickering right before shattering of the glass me and my family see as Harry's rage that through magic - emotions connected to it and all - gives vibrations of sorts and influences the lights. Like his "aura". The lights outside were likely just malfunctioning ones to give a feel of dread and tension. You know, a deserted bus stop at night, Harry on his own and unprotected...good old horror feeling. I think they handled the Dementor brought to screen and the terror he invokes quite well. Only Lupin facing it I give fault. Him waking up and all the sudden in the hallway with that light coming out of his wand right after Harry's soul sucking...it's all just visual fading and blurring effects. Would be better if Lupin was awake BEFORE the Dementor came like in the book. Neville and Ginny present would have been nice, but even as it is Lupin taking charge, commanding everyone present to be quiet and approaching the door gives plenty cinematic thrill and horror after a nice train ride. Only the transition would have been better. When young it bugged me, but now I find it a smart choice to only show one Hippogriff. It puts full attention on Buckbeak, Draco's stupidity but also that this won't remain without consequences. I also like Buckbeak nudge with his beak behind Harry. Even though proud, the creature instinctively seeks comfort knowing a looming drama involving him. A pity we won't see ANY teachings of Care of Magical Creatures after this in the movies. Or Nasty beings beside a boggart in Defense Against the Dark Arts classes. A missed opportunity because beasties guarantee magical wonder. Surely no budget problem...would it have withheld the story that much? Barely anything in the books regarding the grandparents, but on Pottermore Rowling wrote about them, both (Fleamont and Euphemia!) having died of Dragonpox. They saw their son getting married, but died before baby Harry. The only thing we got book wise is in Philosopher Stone Harry seeing them in The Mirror of Erised.

S1lm4r1l

Pretty interesting that the Dementor brings back the memory so vividly don't you think? Harry was only a year old at the time. *hint hint* And we get our first book-only character in Sir Cadogan. Seems like Rik Mayall would've been perfect for the role don't ya think? The tension around Black really is pervasive throughout these chapters. Everyone is incredibly concerned about Harry and where Black is. Snape's behaviour is quite appalling, especially given his position of responsibility as a teacher. I think the Boggart class is Lupin's way of reminding Snape that he's not the only person who can play dirty.

Josh Z

Maybe it’s just me but Ron in the movies starts to become Malfoyish in POA and beyond. Yes Ron can be stubborn and rude but the books show that he is also incredibly loyal and puts his neck on the line for his friends. You will quickly understand reading this book why I have such a problem wih the characterization of the movies, many of the most important characters have been written so that others look lesser and inferior. I would say the only ones that truly feel authentic to how JKR wrote them are Hagrid and Molly, and maybe Luna later on in Order, which is a shame because I feel like a talented cast was pretty much wasted by making so many characters shallow and one-dimensional.

Michelle Linardis

I love the Boggart in the Wardrobe chapter, as we start to see Severus and his dynamic with Remus, especially in this book, which is quite interesting. Obviously, at this point, the readers don't know about his rocky relationship with the Marauders, so sadly many new readers (and sad to say, even old readers), still see Severus' actions as rather petty. But when you know his backstory, you understand completely why Severus acts the way he does in this book. I was going to add a few more points here, but I'll wait much later towards the end of the book when more of this dynamic comes to light, and then you'll understand why Severus has been so uptight and angry when Remus is around. That aside, a lot of people sadly blow the Snape/Neville scenes out of proportion. Neville is a shy, bumbling walking potions disaster (and not the only subject), and Professor Snape simply has no patience for him since he is commonly a hazard to himself and others. Quite interesting when Neville actually 'chooses' his Boggart when Lupin asks him "I don't want it to turn into her either". So he chose Snape over his Grandmother, a lesser fear, and fear of a teacher at 13 years old is very common (I know I had a few!), and book Snape never actually physically hurts a student. So really, that says a lot about Neville's home life. Snape just amplifies his fear but is never actually the cause of his fear from the get-go. Neville is afraid even since arriving at Hogwarts. I've had teachers exactly like, and even worse, than Snape. He's a disciplinarian when students don't follow the rules, and he only gives rather mediocre detentions/punishments. He's really not that bad! There is always a method and reason for his madness =) But also keep in mind the books are from Harry's POV.

Vampiric Angel

This isn't a spoiler... It's a major plot point But this book was set in 1993, the night before Hogwarts began (Sept 1) was a full moon, and this is why Lupin was so tired. Neville is one of the bravest characters in literature. He lives in fear of his Grandmother at home and at school he lives in fear of Snape, someone who he has to see every day.

Mordimer

I don't understand Snape apologists. You read the books, so you know that Snape is constantly bullying students. I guess you forgot how for example he threaten to poison Neville's toad or mock Hermione's teeth. He is an adult teacher, who bullies kids. There is no excuse for that. It is not blowing anything out of proportion. This is not gonna be a spoiler, because Veggie is not reading replies, only main comments.

Michelle Linardis

Quite typical of Snape haters to be demeaning right off the bat. I'd honestly expect nothing less. So Snape reprimanding his students for being reckless, breaking the rules, and not doing as one is told, is apparently 'bullying?' Okay then, so is every other teacher in that school, including Hagrid. Double standards never cease to amuse me in this fandom. And where is the actual threat to Neville's toad? Snape said he'd test the potion and IF it didn't work, it would poison him. He didn't 'threaten to poison/kill the toad'. A common fanon misinterpretation, when people are so blinded by hate, they simply see the worst in a situation without actually thinking about what the text is actually saying. The teeth incident...big deal LOL! You make it as if he threatened to kill her, or something. It was the year where his Mark was returning, in a situation surrounded by his Slytherins and children of DEs. Just think about Severus' position for a moment. What would happen if he had to sweet talk or coddle her in that event? Typing away your hate in a comment Veggie will never read, doesn't give you the right to post a bashing comment on a character you clearly hate. It actually makes you rather petty and clearly looking for a fight. You are not my first rodeo, and will not be my last.

Preetam Ozarde

Yes, he was a bully. He's definitely not just a strict disciplinarian. He singles out students that he doesn't like and says mean/insulting things to them. You say Neville is a bumbling potions disaster and that's why Snape has no patience for him. What about Crabbe and Goyal then? They are probably worse than Neville. You even see that when Neville and Harry are left alone to make potions they are actually pretty good at it. There is no way Snape does not know this. He intentionally insults and belittles all of them. If you want an example of a strict disciplinarian, it's McGonagall. And I'm not hating on Snape. I actually get quite frustrated with Harry in the later books when he finds a way to blame Snape for everything. JK Rowling said herself, 'Snape was a bully who loved the goodness he sensed in Lily without being able to emulate her. That was his tragedy.' Was he a tyrant? No. Was he evil? No. But he was most definitely a bully. He undoubtedly took pleasure in being mean and/or insulting students he didn't like. There are many instances of this. He even smiles while he does most of this. He is a flawed character and that's okay to accept. The book is full of them, including Harry himself.

Michelle Linardis

Severus reprimands students when they misbehave, call out of turn, make consistent mistakes, and are rude (Harry, Neville, Hermione, Ron). He tells them off for good reasons because he doesn't let students get away with it. Rightfully so. It's sad to see you consider this as being a 'bully'. I know many teachers who are Snape fans who support this disciplinary behavior because that's what it is. Because yes Harry IS reckless, yes Neville makes multiple dangerous mistakes, yes Hermione does call out of turn without being asked, and yes Ron has been known to argue and swear at him. So you expect this kind of behavior from the students to go unnoticed? Because they are the protagonists? Maybe zoom out from Harry's POV for a minute and you'll see a little differently. Harry's viewpoint is naturally biased, and he's not the brightest crayon in the box, often failing to notice the important things around him and being blinded by hate as his father was. McGonagall takes a whopping amount of points and sends students on dangerous detentions, including Neville. She punished Neville by denying him a password to the safety of his Common Room when a then-know murderer was loose on in the school. Severus is the first to arrive on scene when he hears screams, even in his nightgown. Severus takes off a small number of points and assigned mediocre detentions. And yet Severus is ridiculously demonized. Crabbe/Goyle (one of them) was actually sent to detention by Severus himself - so you can't say he was biased, because McGonagall and Dumbledore are far more biased than he was. If you prefer to see it superficially, that's your call. I see far more logically and deeper. JKR can barely write romance, let alone her definition of a 'bully'. I had far worse teachers than Severus, who did far worst things, and yet I'd never be so petty as to label them a bully. Funny how we don't hear of other students in the school whining about Severus being a big old meany. He was an asshole, but he saved those children's life. I value lives over feelings. The students passed his classes, regardless of what they thought of him. He is not as terrible as people think he is. Good grief, how silly. Harry would have never named his second son after a 'bully.'

Preetam Ozarde

A bully is a person who habitually intimidates those whom he perceives as vulnerable. You really went on a rant there, but I already pointed out everything you said in your comment. I never said Snape has to overlook anything. He can dole out punishments as he sees fit. As you rightly pointed out, McGonagall does the same. Nowhere in my comment did I bring that up or use that for him being a bully. The students are no doubt reckless, none more so than our protagonists. I also already said that Harry is blinded by his hate in the later books. Trust me, I don't have any blinders on when it comes to Harry. Snape can hand out as many punishments and detentions as he wants. I never said he's wrong for that. What I did say was that he undoubtedly takes pleasure in belittling/insulting the students he doesn't like or being mean to them. You say we don't hear about other students whining about Snape being mean, but there are instances of students from other houses complaining about him as well. Granted it's not much because most of the time potions is with the Slytherin's. Also, it only makes sense that he is worse towards Gryffindor since James and Sirius were in that house. He hands out detentions to Crabbe and Goyal but does does he also berate them, belittle them or mock them? Does he point out their mistakes in potion making while insulting them like he does to the Gryffindors even though we know that they failed their OWL while others passed (so they too could have benefited from some of that and improved)? Does he not overlook all of Draco's transgressions? He both saved lives and took pleasure in all this. Both things can be true. There are people who enforce discipline and are strict like McGonagall. And there are also people like Snape who use enforcing discipline as a cover because they enjoy the feeling of power and control it brings. It's the difference between punishing students because your job requires it and enjoying the job because of that fact. Also, you may have had far worse teachers who did far worse things. But did they single you out specifically? Even if you say they did, it does not make Snape's actions correct. It's the same thing as saying so many kids in foster care are sexually abused, so the actions of the Dursleys are not that bad comparatively, so what is Harry complaining about. I find the comparing suffering game to be problematic, and so I'm not going to comment on that any further. I feel sorry for Snape's character because he may have been kinder if he was shown more love. But the truth is the circumstances he grew up in made him into a bitter, cruel and spiteful person. Harry himself was bullied and abused by the Dursleys so he could see how Snape turned out the way he did. He was a hero and one of the bravest men Harry knew. That's why Harry named his son after him. Just because he was bully, does not erase all the good he did or all the good traits he had. Harry is mature enough to understand that. He realizes that Snape's love for Lily was greater than the hate he felt for Harry's father. Obviously, as a teenager, Harry puts adults he idolized on pedestals. He puts his father, Sirius and Dumbledore on the biggest since they are heroes in his eyes. Just as any child does to the most influential people in their life. As he grows up, he realizes that they are not the idealistic heroes that he had thought but are flawed individuals who had both good qualities and bad. But just because a person is flawed, does not mean that he cannot look up to them. It's the same with Snape. He accepts that he was a bully who also did incredibly brave things. He can choose to admire those things and qualities rather than keep resenting him for the bad.

Hawwah

Oh boy, the highly controversial toad incident. Let's clear some misconceptions here. Firstly, Professor Snape did NOT try to poison Trevor. Had that been the case, Trevor would have been dead. Snape is a master potioneer who keeps a large collection of poisons in his office. It would have been really easy for him to poison Trevor if he wanted to. Secondly, people who dislike Snape often claim that he "picks on Neville for no reason". That couldn't be further from the truth. Neville is an atrociously bad student who constantly endangers the whole classroom with his sloppy work. He's extremely reckless and seems totally unconcerned about the possibility of hurting his classmates. Of course Snape is going to reprimand him for that. That's not bullying, that's simply being a teacher responsible for the safety of his students. Do you know what would have been really evil? Letting Neville hurt, injure and disfigure his classmates. So let's take a look at the incident from Snape's pov. He's already extremely stressed out because of the Black situation. He's teaching his first lesson of the year and Neville is already back to his usual antics. He doesn't pay attention, doesn't follow Snape's instructions, doesn't care if he hurts somebody. And now he even brought his pet to the Potions classroom. Wth, Neville? You don't see Harry bringing Hedwig or Hermione bringing Crookshanks. A pet in the Potions classroom is a safety hazard. It's just another example of how irresponsible Neville is. So Snape decides to show Neville that his actions have consequences. And it worked - with proper motivation, Neville brewed the potion correctly. That's right, Neville cares more about his toad than about hurting his classmates. It also proves that Neville *is* capable of doing things properly - he just doesn't try hard enough. I don't blame Snape for being frustrated with him. Soon we'll see that McGonagall is frustrated with Neville, too, and her punishments are way harsher than Snape's.

Michelle Linardis

You've literally gone off on a tangent here and spoken about 20+ different points. I don't need a Snape history lesson - I know the text extremely well, and I am often writing character analyses discussing said points. My original point was to reiterate the fact that people exaggerate what Severus does, and demonise every little thing he says/does without much thought. It is common for Snape detractors especially to do this, including throwing extreme terms around like 'abuse' without understanding what it truly means. Now I am not calling you a Snape detractor, merely highlighting my above point that what he says/does incorrectly gets blown out of proportion. To bully is a CONSTANT act of aggression (verbal or physical), that which does not even describe Severus in the slightest. He is verbally harsh and rude, but singling students out and pointing out their errors is still not bullying. In fact, we only get a handful of incidences to go by, so to say that he is always bullying students is incorrect as we only get Harry's POV - A Gryffindor, and our main protagonist. In fact, he doesn't even reprimand Harry at every class, because that would have been made clear. With this point too, if Snape can send one of his own to detention, then it is highly likely that he berates his own, just not in Harry's view. We only get a handful of scenes, and most of the time his Slytherins are doing bad things behind his back, so whenever he actually sees something happen, it is a Gryffindor he witnesses (ie the teeth incident in GoF). I bring up McGonagall because of a little thing called protagonist-centered morality. McGonagall is a Gryffindor and Harry's Head of House, therefore she isn't viewed through the same lens as Severus - Head of the rival House. People are so fixated on pointing out every little minor thing Severus says/does, and forget that multiple other teachers can be guilty of that. Hence why I bring up the point of double standards - Severus is the one who is judged for every little thing, and when another teacher does something appalling, no one bats an eye. Again, I don't need the Snape history lesson. But Severus is doing exactly what a teacher should be doing for misbehaving students, especially in the magical world. If you are so vehement about calling him a bully, then you should be calling McGonagall a bully, too.

Hawwah

@Mordimer I've already said it and I'm going to say it again. If reprimanding misbehaving teenagers was bullying, the worst bully of the wizarding world would be Molly Weasley. Closely followed by Minerva McGonagall. @Preetam Ozarde "What about Crabbe and Goyal then? They are probably worse than Neville." No, they are not. Remember when Harry made Goyle's potion explode in CoS? The potion was perfect. It had exactly the effects it was supposed to have. We constantly read about Neville messing stuff up, his cauldrons melting etc., but never anything along those lines about Crabbe and Goyle.

Hawwah

Yes, Snape is a horrible person because he doesn't want Neville to hurt/injure/disfigure his classmates. /s

Dara Jeeling

excuse me - I am a huge fan of Snape. I still do not fin his way a good one. Yes, Potions is a delicat subject and you can hurt people. Still in my view it's not the right way to frighten a student even more - make him/her the laughing stock. Yeah I know yadda yadda double agent and all BUT wen the book came out (and I loved him even back then) I still thought he is a terrible unkind teacher. I do not say a bad one - most of the time he pervents bad potion mishaps from taking place - still he could be more moderate. As for a shrinking solution - why test it on anything, if you canmek out if it's done correctly by color?

Dara Jeeling

There it is - one of the scenes that made me tell you, that Snape is worse in the books. Since people have already commented on it being not that bad.... My 5 cents... Yes, Snaoe is under a bit of stress (and maybe even issed of) by the Lupin/Black situation. Still, he's a teacher and should not play out his personal troubles on the students back s. Yes, Potions is a delicate and dangerous subject BUT does it help to scare people, so they get even more unsure of themselves? Would encouragment not be a better way? And yes, I can already see the comments... As said before - yadda yadda - double agent - which we did not know by the time this book came out. Still... It's not a great character trade to be really bad with your students - no matter how dangerous your subject is. I always thought it's bad enough that he is mean to Neville in his own class - but sort of telling Luping to watch out... just keep your mouth shut, please. And... Snape is still my favorite character and I see a lot of his positive things I just do not like some things he does (and I pretend we do not know he is a double agent).

sarah4hp

Look, Snape is my second favorite character of the entire series, and my empathy and compassion towards him, and everything he went through as a young boy and man, makes it impossible for me not to love him. But come on, let us not pretend he was a good teacher, or that he was in any way justified when it comes to bullying the students in his care. As I used to study to become a teacher I feel pretty confident in saying that making students terrified of you, belittling, humiliating and ridiculing them in front of the entire class to the point of making some of them cry, and threatening death to their pet if they have failed to make the potion you will force their pet to drink correctly.... not good strategies, nor acceptable behavior from an adult towards a child in their care. Snape went through hell as a child, and he is a very tragic character who I can easily understand and sympathize with. He was brave, intelligent, loyal and in many ways an amazing man who did a lot of good. He was also a bitter man who let his past define him and treated others horribly because he couldn't and wouldn't move on from the past. Both can be true, and it doesn't take away from what an amazing character he was. He never seemed to want to teach, or to enjoy teaching, and I think if we had seen him be allowed to leave that life after the fall of Voldy, when he no longer needed to play spy, he could have found happiness and grown to become an even better man. He had already come a long way, no longer accepting the word mudblood unless needed for his role as spy, being willing to risk his cover to save Lupin, a very hated rival who he held responsible for his bullying as a child, from being killed, being loyal to Dumbledore and his cause because he believed it to be the right thing and no longer just because of a debt he felt he owed Lilly etc. Sadly he died before he got to continue that growth, and before we got to see how far that journey could have taken him, but yeah... none of the potential or the good erases the bad, or even makes it okay.

Hawwah

I've already said it and I'll say it again. If reprimanding misbehaving teenagers was bullying, the worst bully of the wizarding world would be Molly Weasley. Followed by Minerva McGonagall. I honestly think Snape was a reasonably good teacher. He had a high pass rate, Umbridge begrudgingly acknowledged that his class was fairly advanced for their age when she inspected him, and he was the teacher most concerned with his students' physical safety. When you compare him with teachers like Quirrel, Lockhart, Trelawney, Hagrid, fake Moody and Umbridge, who were either evil, incompetent or both, you'll see that Snape was actually one of the best teachers at Hogwarts. "making students terrified of you, belittling, humiliating and ridiculing them in front of the entire class" You mean like McGonagall? Hermione's boggart who warned Neville in front of the entire class not to let the foreign students see how useless he was? Funny how no one calls HER a bully. Double standards much?

Preetam Ozarde

@Hawwah Snape said something to Draco in one of the books about Crabbe/Goyal needing to study if they intended to pass their OWL's this time around. That's why I mentioned it. If I'm wrong, then I apologize. Also, aren't there instances where Harry isn't doing too badly and Snape still singles him out to insult him. Harry specifically comments that his potion was no worse than several others. Do you see Molly or McGonagall singling out people to insult or berate or just waiting for them to mess up so they can be punished? Or smiling while they do it like they are getting some sick satisfaction from it? @Michelle I did not go off on tangents. I addressed all of the points that you made. True, I have seen people exaggerate things that Snape does or blow them out of proportion. Again, it is not about reprimanding students or punishing them. It is about the verbal abuse and tormenting that he does aside from that only to specific students. There are several instances in every book of Snape doing this. That makes it constant in my book. Again, he singles out students to torment and insult. It's like he knows that they are puppies that can be kicked whenever he feels like it. Even if I agree with you about just seeing Harry's POV, is his treatment of Harry not bullying or atleast under the umbrella of 'abuse of power'? He singles out Harry for his amusement multiple times every book. Even when he is doing no worse than the rest of the class. I disagree about McGonagall. The reason McGonagall isn't viewed through the same lens is because she is consistent in every scenario. Whether the person is from her house or not, she is the same for all students. Are you really telling me you see no difference in the way he treats certain students differently? Also, we have several instances of Snape being nicer to Slytherin's than the rest of the students. If he was verbally harsh and rude to everyone, this wouldn't be a topic of discussion. There are six books of them at Hogwarts, and you're telling me Snape conveniently is looking the other way each time his students do something bad? I will say it one last time. It is not about reprimanding/punishing students. I never brought that up. It is about berating/belittling/insulting certain students and the satisfaction/enjoyment he gets from it. All this, like I said, takes away nothing from all of his good qualities that he definitely possesses. I think we just see this differently, I guess.

Hawwah

@Preetam Ozarde "Snape said something to Draco in one of the books about Crabbe/Goyal needing to study if they intended to pass their OWL's this time around. That's why I mentioned it. If I'm wrong, then I apologize." That was in HBP when Snape taught DADA. Meaning they failed their OWLs the year before, when Snape was not their DADA teacher. When it comes to Potions, there's no evidence in the books that they were worse than Neville; and there's at least one evidence that Goyle was actually good at Potions - his flawless Swelling Solution I mentioned earlier.

Preetam Ozarde

@Hawwah Guess I was wrong about that then. My bad. I still stand by everything else I said. If you guys don't agree with me, that's fine. We just see it differently.

Hawwah

Professor Snape wanted to show Neville that his sloppy work has consequences because Neville seemed absolutely unconcerned about the fact that he could seriously hurt someone. I elaborated on that in my comment in the main thread. Maybe we've already discussed it but what is your opinion on McGonagall?

S1lm4r1l

Snape was perfectly okay with Neville thinking Snape was going to kill his pet. Neville is not atrociously bad at Potions, as demonstrated by the fact he performs better in his Potions OWL because Snape is not around. Neville never injures anyone at all in class, despite his clumsiness. Snape could've chosen to ignore Neville and simply grade his work poorly. He actively chose to humiliate Neville in front of his classmates and threaten to murder his pet. We never hear about the potions being tested on humans, which would be hysterically unsafe given these students are making these for the first time and there's bound to be mistakes. Why on earth would Snape be concerned about Black? And how does that excuse his treatment of Neville? I might as well argue that the Marauders were stressed over the OWLS and thus attacking Snape was justified in Book 5. Plenty of people don't pay attention, or brew potions that are dangerous. But Snape only ever goes after Neville and Harry, because he hates them. Neville only produced a correct potion after Hermione spent the rest of the lesson whispering instructions to him. Snape himself says that its solely down to her that the Potion worked. Snape doesn't take safety seriously at all. We have no idea whether Snape had the necessary antidote on hand to prevent Trevor's death. The sole reason Harry was able to throw a Firework into Goyle's cauldron is because Snape was distracted bullying Neville. Snape being better than Trelawney, Hagrid, Fake Moody and Umbridge does not make him a good teacher. They were by your own admittance incompetent or evil. That doesn't make Snape good. I'm frankly amazed that anyone would try and defend Snape's actions in this chapter. He was utterly repulsive. It is also madly ironic that the same people who hate the Marauders for making Snape's life hell, do not hate Snape for doing likewise to Neville. Neville has plenty of people he could've been scared of enough to encourage a Boggart. His grandmother, Bellatrix, Voldemort. But the thing that scares him most is his teacher. Someone he should be able to trust, confide in.

S1lm4r1l

Hawwah - If that were true then Snape would be equally nasty to everyone in the class. Plenty of students are bad, or inattentive (Seamus is a prime example in this very chapter, he wants to talk about Black rather than focus on his potion.) and I'd say Potions is markedly more safe than a lot of other subjects, all you have to do is not drink the potions or get splashed and you're fine. But its only ever Harry and Neville that get shit from Snape. And their potions are rarely any worse than anyone else's. He's a horrible person. And a horrible teacher. He's a bully. Far worse than James and Sirius were to him.

Q

The potions scene has been talked about enough above, and I'm worried if I say more it'll be a long, boring argument and no one wants that. So feel free to skip talking about this paragraph if it's redundant for your discussion. I'll just say that as a teacher and a student I believe that repeatedly threatening and publicly calling a student useless and stupid (in so many words or not) is probably the worst way to encourage them to learn and will only ever make things worse for them and everyone around them. Okay, two cents in, moving on! So excited for you to meet book Lupin! Like so many characters in the movie, he gets a lot less personality than he has in the books. He's such a fascinating character, especially as the books continue. I think the movies could have done better with the boggart scene to make Lupin's fear less obvious and to keep his reasoning for stopping Harry fighting it under wraps (and book accurate). The movies don't really allow for the build-up to the mysteries and reveals in this one too well. That said, the movie boggart scene is a lot of fun. I love how the books make it clear how much being a teacher means for Hagrid and show that while he can be careless or underestimate the danger some creatures pose to students, he does really know his stuff and clearly tells them how to be safe with the hippogriffs. The Monster Books demonstrate his philosophy on creatures really well too. He's amazed and disappointed that not one of his students looked at the snapping and snarling creature and thought to show it kindness.

Josh Z

Oh boy the heat here is palpable, I've always been in the middle on Snape, brave and loyal yes, but any good teacher tries to get the best out there students, and I just don't think Snape falls in that category. Not that he needed to be an apologist but I do think he enjoys having an excuse to make people feel how he felt as a kid and that's not okay. He is a grown man acting like a petty child. Instead of making sure the students UNDERSTAND why they are being disciplined, he chooses to attack their self esteem, or their individual character. Neville doesn't try in his class because Snape doesn't properly motivate him to try his best. Harry talks back because he is constantly told that his dead father was an awful person or else purposely singled out. A child can only take so much. Ron talks back because he knows that Hermione has just been insulted on a self esteem level and he knows what that is like even accidentally. What I'm saying is that Snape is an adult who sadly is largely in capable of treating his students with any empathy when they fail. He is the adult who has a fully developed brain. it's his job to be better than the children his teaching and avoid sinking to their level of immaturity and impatientce.

Dave Brannagan (Brannas86)

Harry:why would I go looking for someone who wants to kill me? Me: that never stopped you in the 1st 2 books and is probably why they said don't go looking for him.

Inseriousity

Firstly, welcome! I agree with you, the movie had to be obvious about it because its visual but the book could be more subtle and everyone had such wild guesses that the mystery was maintained

S1lm4r1l

Never complains or tries to get out of it either. Just bravely and stoically absorbs all the punishment. Neville is great.

Rebecca May

While Snape’s treatment of Neville is generally inexcusable, I do feel like a hell of a lot of people misread the Boggart scene. A Boggart is hindered by the fact that it must show a physical representation of human fears, which are often incredibly deep and complex. Severus Snape is not *literally* Neville’s worst fear, just one possible representation of his actual greatest fear… The fear of failure, and its consequences. There is another Hogwarts teacher who appears as a Boggart later on, and nobody really holds it against them. Anyway, I can’t wait to see your reactions to book Lupin! I adore Lupin and I love being able to see more of his character in the book. That being said, it breaks my heart to think that in another life, Lupin would probably have been there all the time as Harry grew up. Instead they meet after many years as strangers, in the moment that Harry is forced to relive the memory of his mother’s death. It’s so sad.

Michelle Linardis

@Preetam Ozarde And yet I've seen you exaggerate, too. I was wondering when you were going to bring up the term 'abuse', which is a usual thing people accuse him of. He did NOT abuse those kids! What an appalling thing to say. No, no, no, and NO. I HAVE been abused. "Again, it is not about reprimanding students or punishing them. It is about the verbal abuse and tormenting that he does aside from that only to specific students." It IS reprimanding them and calling them out when necessary. Because if he didn't, those students will assume their antics are okay, and that it is found to endanger themselves and others. THINK about what the subject is for a moment. Potions = chemistry. Can you see how dangerous one wrong step could be? Yes, Severus loses his patience, and for good reason. How many times in the class have cauldrons blown up/melted, and brews gone wrong? If Severus didn't reprimand the students responsible, they'd never know the severity of what they did. Please use a little more common sense. I feel like I'm talking to a child who cries abuse when a teacher removes their phone because they used it in class. Constant? What, once a week? That's not constant. Actually, that's rather mild. Once a fortnight? Can you prove it is as frequent as you say? There is no 'abuse of power' - there is being a teacher and ensuring students abide by the rules. Please stop exaggerating. Because I forgot to address it in my previous, I actually have been singled out by a teacher in class, multiple times, and never would I have ever considered that bullying. What you claim is exaggerated nonsense. McGonagall and Snape are both strict, overbearing, unfair at times, and authoritative. Both are somewhat biased toward their own House. Both demean their students when necessary when they are reprimanded. Both have the ability to silence a classroom without saying a thing. Severus has a harsher, sharp tongue, but that does not make him 'abusive' or a bully. Move out of Harry's POV and you'll be able to see clearly without that biased lens you have.

Michelle Linardis

@Hawwah These people have probably never had a rude teacher in their life LOL good grief, I can't even with the mindset of some people. However they go through life without accusing someone of being a bully because they were mean, I will never know.

VeggieGamer

Hi all! Sorry, I don't usually reply to Book Club comments, but saw this was getting a lot of back and forth and worry tempers may be getting heated a little. At this point I don't know what it is the discussion is about as I am avoiding reading the 'meat' of the comments, but please do keep things respectful between eachother. I love that these books can spark such differing opinions on these chapters, but even if you read them different than others, please do respect that some will simply see them differently. I am purely going on the opening line of comments as I don't want to spoil myself by reading the Book Club comments early. I just want to say it is ok to see these things from a different light! Take care! x

Michelle Linardis

@VEGGIE GAMER Thank you, Veggie. I know you won't read this (I agree, read no further LOL!). It's sad when people can't even enjoy a story for what it is, without people harassing you with bashing and hate comments. Unfortunately, this happens on all forms of social media platforms and for fans of a particular character, there are rarely safe spaces out there to express your own thoughts without being 'mobbed.' Trust me, we are generally used to being attacked, accused, harassed, and yes, even threatened (not that any of these things have happened in this thread yet, but this is a general occurance).

Daniel Lee

It's only a small moment but I feel that Ron telling Ginny to go away on the train is a defining moment that separates Ginny from the trio. It does make her a minor character for some time but paves the way for what she becomes in the later books. I was wondering what you think about Harry not being able to see the thestrals pulling the carts. The literal explanation would obviously be that Rowling didn't come up with them until later but a popular argument is that Harry didn't process the death of his parents at that young age. But wasn't his parent's death his worst memory according to the dementor scene? There's also a theory that it was actually Voldemort who saw the deaths, not Harry, and he only remembers because Voldemort's soul is in him. If it took until the third year for their first practical DADA class, what was so bad about Umbridge's classes compared to Quirrell and Lockhart... jkjk

Hawwah

I am frankly amazed that anyone would consider a teacher reprimanding a sloppy, reckless student who is a danger to both himself and others, bullying. The fact is that Snape is no more a bully than McGonagall is. "Neville is not atrociously bad at Potions" Demonstrably false. We are being constantly told about Neville messing stuff up, melting his cauldrons etc. It's also said that Potions are Neville's worst subject. "Neville never injures anyone at all in class" That's only thanks to Snape, who has to constantly keep an eye on him (but you call that bullying). Remember the very first Potions lesson in PS? Neville didn't follow instructions, managed to melt down his cauldron and his botched potion started to burn holes in people's shoes. Explain to me how that's not dangerous? Thankfully Snape vanished the potion immediately with his wand. "Snape could've chosen to ignore Neville" Yeah, a teacher should ignore it when a student messes around with dangerous chemicals and endangers his classmates. I'm sure nothing could go wrong. /s "threaten to murder his pet" Firstly, I'm pretty sure the word "murder" means an unlawful killing of a human being. Trevor is a toad, so he can't be "murdered". Secondly, poison doesn't necessarily mean death. Thirdly, Snape didn't threaten to kill Trevor. He "threatened" to feed him the Shrinking Solution, which is harmless (that's why I put "threatened" in quotation marks). Snape wasn't preventing Neville from brewing it correctly. He WANTED him to brew it correctly. "We never hear about the potions being tested on humans, which would be hysterically unsafe" What on Earth are you talking about? Nobody suggested testing potions on humans. "Why on earth would Snape be concerned about Black?" Because Snape's priority number one is Harry's safety and he believes Black is determined to murder Harry. "Plenty of people don't pay attention" Really? Do you have any text evidence of that? I only remember reading about Neville and Harry not following instructions. "But Snape only ever goes after Neville and Harry, because he hates them." I'm not interested in your headcanon, I'm only interested in the text. Snape "goes after" Neville and Harry because they are both sloppy students who don't pay attention in class. When students work properly, they have no problems with Snape. We never read about Snape scolding Hermione for bad work. "Neville only produced a correct potion after Hermione spent the rest of the lesson whispering instructions to him." Because Neville actually followed her instructions. Why didn't he follow Snape's instructions before? BTW, they were exactly the same instructions. "Snape doesn't take safety seriously at all." That's demonstrably false. Snape is consistently portrayed as someone who's priority number one is the safety of his students. If he hadn't cared, he would have simply let Neville maim his classmates. "Snape being better than Trelawney, Hagrid, Fake Moody and Umbridge does not make him a good teacher. They were by your own admittance incompetent or evil. That doesn't make Snape good." Finally a fair point. I was trying to say that it's unfair to call Snape a bad teacher when we have people like Lockhart, Trelawney and Hagrid teaching at Hogwarts. But you're right that being better than someone bad doesn't necessarily mean to be good. So let me rephrase that. I believe Snape was a reasonably good teacher (I'm not saying he was perfect) for following reasons: Firstly, he was a real expert in his subject. Not even his haters can deny that. Secondly, he was a fairly successful teacher, even if his teaching methods were unpopular. His students were advanced for their age and had a high pass rate. Thirdly, he cared deeply about his students' safety. That makes him both a good person and a good teacher in my eyes.

Jacqueline Chaiton

Guys, we've already had so many discussions about Snape. I think generally we've all agreed to disagree regarding our opinions on him when they clash so let's just stop debating. All it does is cause bad feelings for everyone.

Jacqueline Chaiton

Lots of great comments already that say a lot of the things I would have said, so I will just add this. I wish I had a magical car like the ministry cars, being stuck in traffic is the actual worst. Also, I love how casually Arthur goes through the barrier at 9 & 3/4s.

Annamarie schwirian

I have to say that I feel book lupin is better then movie lupin. The scene with the bogart is interesting in the movie but in the book you can really see how he's trying to build Neville up. Also I think the movie could have really done well to show snapes anger about the whole situation.

GiaLovesFire

First time commenter and fellow Hufflepuff here! Thanks for doing this, it made me go back to the books after a long time and reminded me why I love them so much. Lupin is one of my favourites, I can't wait to see what you make of the marauders as a group, but that's a discussion for later. I wanted to take a moment to appreciate how good of a teacher Lupin is! Just last book Ron wanted to drop DADA, but now everyone is buzzing about it. A good teacher makes all the difference, and it comes naturally to Remus. He seems to really understand the students, already in his first lesson he's given everyone a boost of self confidence, and him defending Neville makes me really happy. Paraphrasing Madam Pomfrey, finally a DADA teacher who knows what he's doing! In my opinion, he's the best DADA teacher we see, at least he's the one I would want the most. I really enjoy the casual scenes, like Ron and Hermione talking about Hogsmede on the train, excited for completely different reasons. I really like how Harry's priorities really do reflect his age, they're very childish which isn't a bad thing at all, it makes him a very real character. I also appreciate both versions of the dementor scene, even though the movie changed it. This movie is the one that is most successful in interpreting the book into it's own style on screen in my opinion, I would have loved to see this director's take on the other books, but I'm glad he did this one as it is also my favourite book. That being said, I do slightly prefer the chaos of the book scene with Neville and Ginny being there. What do you think?

S1lm4r1l

"Demonstrably false. We are being constantly told about Neville messing stuff up, melting his cauldrons etc. It's also said that Potions are Neville's worst subject" He's not that much worse than anyone else in the class. And when his skills are allowed to thrive in the right environment. He's actually alright. "That's only thanks to Snape, who has to constantly keep an eye on him (but you call that bullying). Remember the very first Potions lesson in PS? Neville didn't follow instructions, managed to melt down his cauldron and his botched potion started to burn holes in people's shoes. Explain to me how that's not dangerous? Thankfully Snape vanished the potion immediately with his wand." Safety is not Snape's concern. He bullies Neville because he enjoys it. Not because he wants to keep everyone safe. Snape has no idea who threw the Firework into Goyle's potion, does Snape give Goyle shit for his potion literally exploding in everyone's faces? Of course not. "Yeah, a teacher should ignore it when a student messes around with dangerous chemicals and endangers his classmates. I'm sure nothing could go wrong." He actively chooses to bully Neville. And there are far better ways of keeping everyone safe than bullying everyone that screws up. "Firstly, I'm pretty sure the word "murder" means an unlawful killing of a human being. Trevor is a toad, so he can't be "murdered"." Which would be a great comfort to Neville I'm sure. "Secondly, poison doesn't necessarily mean death." Neville didn't know that. "Thirdly, Snape didn't threaten to kill Trevor. He "threatened" to feed him the Shrinking Solution, which is harmless (that's why I put "threatened" in quotation marks). Snape wasn't preventing Neville from brewing it correctly. He WANTED him to brew it correctly." Neville doesn't know that. Snape was offering no help, no guidance, nothing at all. Snape wanted to bully Neville. "Because Snape's priority number one is Harry's safety and he believes Black is determined to murder Harry." And bullying Neville accomplishes this how? "Really? Do you have any text evidence of that? I only remember reading about Neville and Harry not following instructions." It's literally in this chapter..........Seamus distracts Ron and Harry by talking about Black. "I'm not interested in your headcanon, I'm only interested in the text. Snape "goes after" Neville and Harry because they are both sloppy students who don't pay attention in class. When students work properly, they have no problems with Snape. We never read about Snape scolding Hermione for bad work." Wrong. Again. Snape has plenty of nasty things to say about Hermione, despite her probably being one of the best students in the class. He scolds her for other things. Because he's a bully. "Because Neville actually followed her instructions. Why didn't he follow Snape's instructions before? BTW, they were exactly the same instructions." Yes. It truly is a great mystery why Neville wouldn't respond well to Snape. "That's demonstrably false. Snape is consistently portrayed as someone who's priority number one is the safety of his students. If he hadn't cared, he would have simply let Neville maim his classmates." You've literally made the argument that Neville regularly melts his cauldrons and causes havoc in their classes. You cannot have it both ways. Snape's so amazingly careful about safety and that's why he continually makes no effort to avert these catastrophes? "Firstly, he was a real expert in his subject. Not even his haters can deny that." Yes. But just because you're good at Nuclear Physics doesn't mean you're good at teaching it. "Secondly, he was a fairly successful teacher, even if his teaching methods were unpopular. His students were advanced for their age and had a high pass rate." I'd argue his pass rates are no better than Flitwick, McGonagall and a variety of other teachers. "Thirdly, he cared deeply about his students' safety. That makes him both a good person and a good teacher in my eyes." Yes. Quirrell and Lockhart both cared about their student's safety too. They were fantastic weren't they?

Hawwah

Okay, I'm done. It's obvious you don't give a damn about the actual text evidence and care only about your headcanons. To each their own, I guess. However, I would really appreciate it if you didn't conflate your headcanon-Snape with actual book Snape. Thank you.

Janie

Ginny is affected by the dementors almost as much as Harry. We can see how much she's traumatized by the previous year's events. They didn't show it in the movies at all which is a shame. Poor Neville. The adults around him have been constantly putting him down, first his own grandmother, then Snape and even McGonagall. No wonder his confidence is pretty low. I'm really happy Lupin gave him the chance to shine for once. All Neville needs is someone to believe in is abilities.

Michelle Linardis

@Hawwah Yeah, I wouldn't waste energy with them - it's not worth it. They are so rooted in their blind hate that they are willing to overlook the most important details just to demonize him as much as they can as long as he says a mean thing = evil demon from hell, therefore nothing else matters. Quite sad to see how many of them misread the text. They are obsessed with their hate, on any social media platform.

Hawwah

@Michelle You're absolutely right. I'm now convinced this person is a troll. They edited their last post and added that Quirrell cared about students' safety, too. That's right, Quirrell, who tried to murder a student several times, cared about students' safety. Sure. Whatever. It's obvious this person isn't interested in a serious discussion. They post the most absurd and ridiculous claims they can think of to provoke people and elicit angry reactions. I won't engage with them any further.

Weronika

Hello! I am so happy you are reading this book! Lupin is my favorite character. He believes in his students and tries to bond with them being actually a nice teacher. After all he went through it's really impressive, and only makes point of how whatever pain, loss and difficulties in general your life made you go through it's only up to you how you decide to deal with it and interact with others.. Yes Snape, i am looking at you 😑 Also another thing! Did you know that character of Remus was originally written to be allegory of AIDS/HIV? And it was before Rowling became... Questionable about her beliefs. Being missanderstood and having whole community coming to you with a prejudice, specially between 60's and 90's when he lived when people honestly didn't know what it was and whoever was sick was immediately outcasted. Even Alfonso Cuaron asked David Thewlis to act like his character is gay (and you can see how his performance changed after Tonks was introduced in future movies) thus the whole Wolfstar (Remus x Sirius ship) thing was created among the fans who realized how suggesting/implying was chemistry between Thewlis and Oldman and believe me even books written from pov of 13 years old oblivious Harry have their moments when it makes you wonder... I am really curious what will your thoughts be. Yes, yes, R.I.P 4-5 sentences rule... Sorry 😅

Hawwah

Snape sacrificed his reputation, among other things, to protect Harry. Lupin was willing to sacrifice Harry's life to protect his reputation. Being nice doesn't mean being a good person and vice versa.

S1lm4r1l

Only because Dumbledore spent years manipulating him towards that end. Snape's sacrifice was mostly down to Dumbledore's cajoling. Snape would've committed suicide days after Lily's death if Dumbledore hadn't talked him out of it.

S1lm4r1l

I've presented accurate canon evidence for my assertions. It is simply ridiculous to assert that Snape was safety conscious. Or anymore safety conscious than any other member of staff at Hogwarts. Was Hagrid safety conscious because he took Malfoy to the hospital wing? No. Snape was perfectly happy to watch Neville continue to make mistakes, continually melt his cauldrons and wreak havoc in his classes. You cannot make the argument that Neville was a dangerous liability and claim that Snape was safety conscious. His methods had no appreciable positive affect whatsoever on Neville's ability to be safe in Potions. Indeed, they probably contributed to his abiding and continual failure in Snape's classes. Because Snape is a bad person, a bad teacher. Only with consistently low standards and low expectations could anyone think otherwise.

itsanursething

This Snape debate has gotten beyond ridiculous. What people seem to be forgetting is that he is NOT REAL! JKR, the person who CREATED him and everything about him had said more than once, is that YES HE IS A BULLY. Whether the way she wrote him matches your personal definition of bully is irrelevant, because she intended to write him as a bully. At the same time, she wrote him as a hero. He CAN be both. Refusing to open your mind and see both sides creates all this unnecessary drama.

itsanursething

Ok, everyone is out here defending Snape, but no one is defending NEVILLE?? This poor kid has been told his entire life by every single person around him that he is useless and good at nothing and a failure. Of COURSE he’s going to believe it. Does that mean he’s purposefully sloppy and careless about his classmates’ safety? NO! Neville had been so beaten down that he truly doesn’t believe in himself, and on top of that, he’s terrified of Snape. No wonder he couldn’t concentrate and was constantly making mistakes. He was probably having panic attacks every time he went to potions class. Any good teacher would recognize that Neville needs some extra encouragement and guidance, but Snape just writes him off as a waste of time and doesn’t even try.

itsanursething

You make SUCH an amazing point about Neville’s boggart! I never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense. Thank you so much for sharing!

itsanursething

This is a really interesting comment! But Veggie asks only one comment per person. Maybe add it to your previous comment 😊

Rebecca May

Thanks itsadancething! I’m so glad you appreciated my comment :)

Rebecca May

@Hawwah Severus and Lupin are my two favourite characters, so putting Severus aside for a moment, I do want to defend Lupin. I don’t think he would ever have deliberately risked Harry’s life for his own gain… I think Lupin saw Harry on the map with Sirius and Pettigrew, and knew he was alone with at least one dangerous serial killer, so dashed out without having time to wait for the Wolfsbane Potion. Then Professor Snape turned up and saw the map that Lupin had left behind, and followed them. Remus may have weighed the risks poorly in this situation, but hindsight is 20/20. Poor decision? Yes. Bad person? No.

Hawwah

In the very first Potions lesson, Professor Snape didn't pay any special attention to Neville - so Neville had no reason to be afraid of him yet - but Neville still botched his potion because he didn't follow Snape's instructions. Only after that Snape got angry with him. "Any good teacher would recognize that Neville needs some extra encouragement and guidance" Perhaps you're right. However, that means that by your own definition McGonagall wasn't a good teacher either. At the beginning of HBP Harry notes that Professor McGonagall never paid Neville a compliment before. In his first 5 years at Hogwarts she never praised him. And she was his head of house while Snape wasn't.

Hawwah

If Snape is a bully, so is McGonagall. I respect JKR but I don't take every single word of hers as gospel. The idea that a teacher reprimanding a sloppy student who is a danger to himself and others is a bully is absurd and laughable to me. No, that's just a teacher doing his job. Potions are basically chemistry. Do you honestly think Neville's antics would be tolerated in a muggle school?

Michelle Linardis

What JKR says and what she writes are two very different things. This is coming from an author who suddenly decided that magicfolk used to relieve themselves where they stood and vanish the remains. This is the same author that claimed James had changed, and yet never bothered to show it. She can't write a good romance story, and her definition of a bully is questionable at best. I actually DO see both sides - that's why I defend the good side of him because people a faction of people only want to see his bad side, and if not, take everything he says/does and make him into the devil, which is the most ridiculous part of this fandom. I love his snarkiness. I love his forked tongue. His wit and sarcasm. His blunt honesty. His grumpiness. His anger. His fury. His overbearing nature and no-nonsense approach to his students. I like his dark past, but I also like that he realised his mistakes hence why he went to Dumbledore in the first place. I love that he's an asshole because he doesn't suffer fools lightly. That doesn't make him a bully, or 'evil'. What IS refusing to open your mind to the other side, is only seeing him as a 'bully', or the other extremist view 'an abuser', and see nothing else. They don't see that the students actually learn from his own recipes, hence why they never use the textbook, or the fact that Severus is always concerned for the safety of his students whether he likes them or not, or the the fact that no one actually failed his class, yes even Harry and Neville. People don't want to see his good side, or even the possibility that he really isn't so bad in hindsight. They refuse it, even if it's written in plain sight. So they use every way imaginable to make him a demon so they can feel better about hating him for things he never even did, or the image of DemonSnape they have in their minds. THAT is why I defend him. Because of the exaggerated nonsense Snaters sprout. I wouldn't have to if people learned to be logical about it.

Michelle Linardis

The funny thing about this fandom is that people don't want Severus to berate Neville for making a potentially fatal mistake because they wish he was a kind cinnamon roll, and yet if Severus said nothing and Neville hurt himself, people would STILL attack Severus for doing nothing to stop it. Either way, Severus is always condemned. It's almost laughable at this point.

Michelle Linardis

Sure let's all forget about McGonagall publically shaming Neville on multiple occasions, but it's okay because Gryffindor = good, and she's his Head of House, so it's totally fine, right? But no, let's all condemn Snape and pretend he was the only teacher who ever did anything wrong, and ignore all the other unprofessional things the others did. Severus is harmless compared to them.

Michelle Linardis

Severus was never left without a choice. He still chose to side with Dumbledore, guilt-tripped or not. Severus could have easily given the finger to Dumbledore and fled the wizarding world, and let it all crash and burn. He risked imprisonment, torture, or death just to confront his enemy and plea for someone's safety. But he didn't cowardly flee. He face his mistakes and paid for them, as any person should. Voldemort's demise and Harry's survival were due to Severus' involvement and efforts - twice. If another DE was tasked to eavesdrop on the prophecy, then the entire Potter family would have had no chance, and Voldemort's reign would have continued.

Hawwah

@Rebecca May That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to the fact that Lupin knew Black was an animagus and was using that ability to sneak into Hogwarts and he didn't tell Dumbledore for the whole school year.

Hawwah

@Michelle Beautifully said! I agree 100%.

itsanursething

Remus and Sirius were not in contact. From the time Sirius went to Azkaban until they reconnected in the Shrieking Shack, Remus was under the impression that Sirius had betrayed Lily and James, and killed Peter. He didn't trust him. There was no way he could have known that Sirius was using his animagus form to sneak into the school. Yes, he eventually confiscated the map from Harry, but he watched that thing like a hawk. The moment he suspected anything dangerous I'm positive he would have gone to Dumbledore. Also, becoming an animagus is a VERY long process. One step is holding a specific leaf in your mouth...for a month! Dumbledore is not stupid. He probably knew as soon as the Marauders decided to become animagi what was going on.

itsanursething

Lupin is just the best, isn't he? He's so knowledgable and encouraging and kind. I've passed out before (more times than I want to admit) and it is horribly embarrassing and you just feel awful before it happens. I understand how Harry feels and chocolate does help! Yay Lupin! I'm excited we're getting more of the other characters now. Lavender and Parvati are definitely quite the pair! You'll get to know them pretty well. And the divinations classes are a hoot! I'll keep this one short and sweet because I know there are already some long comments. Mostly just interested in your thoughts on these (apparently controversial) chapters :)

itsanursething

@Hawwah Ok, I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. JKR...the creator of the Harry Potter universe...doesn't know what she's talking about...when she talks about the universe and characters she created? I just re-read the chapter and I'm going to reference this specific chapter in my comment. Neville messes up his potion and Hermione offers to help him fix it and Snape refuses. In this exchange he belittles both Neville and Hermione. He is mean. That's as simply as I can put it. Then later, he purposefully embarrasses Neville in front of a new teacher and his classmates. I don't know about you, but that does not sound like an educator to me. Snape is supposed to be a teacher, he is supposed to help his students learn, not put them down for every mistake they make. If Snape didn't want Hermione to help him, then Snape should have. Just saying, "this is terrible, fix it, but I'm not going to tell you how and you can't ask for help" is not going to help Neville learn. Is Snape strict? Yes. Does he care about safety? Yes. I can see both sides. But you have to admit, what he said to them was out of line. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't recall Snape ever going over safety at the beginning of any of his lessons. I took chemistry and that was the first thing we did every class: safety briefing. Snape just kind of says, "here, do this" and leaves them to their own devices. No lecture, no instruction, no safety warnings. These are children he is supposed to be teaching. They shouldn't have to teach themselves. On the safety note, in this specific chapter, what was so dangerous about his potion being orange? And what "antics" wouldn't fly in a muggle school? @Michelle Snape is not my favorite character, but I definitely don't hate him. I think he is very complicated and interesting. I think a lot of what he did over the years was incredibly brave and he ultimately was a hero. But I can also see that he was not a nice person. He was a grown man who insulted and belittled children and got joy from it. They are not mutually exclusive and it is possible for him to be both. I apologize to both of you if any of my comments have come across as rude. It was not my intention. (Maybe Snape never meant to be rude, but he was perceived that way. I don't know!) I can see this topic dividing people, and not in a good way. We all perceive the world differently. I accept the fact that some people love Snape and think he's the best character and don't see him as mean or unkind in any way shape or form. But there are a lot of people out there that disagree with that, and that's ok! I'm sure there are people in this world who think I'm a jerk and others who think I'm super nice. It's just how things are; you can't please everyone. I hope we can all move forward and be respectful of each other's opinions about Snape :)

Annette Elliott

Apparently I somehow skipped ahead a chapter in my comment last time. Sorry. What I was saying was that Iike how the book showed how the dementors affected all of the kids on the train. Poor Ginny was a wreck. I also loved Fred & George telling them how a scared Draco came running into their compartment. Then there's Sir Cadogan and all of the hippogriffs not just Buckbeak. There's also the way Lupin sticks up for Neville and tries to boost his confidence when Snape is such a jerk to him. I know it's not a popular opinion but I really don't like Snape despite his heroic actions behind the scenes.

Anders Ekren

Guys, what happened to 3-4 sentences? XD Poor Veggie.

Michelle Linardis

@itsadancething Look as a Snape fan, I don't care if he is disliked. He's not for everyone. But what is not okay for all those who despise him, is to take every action of his and amplify them to the point of ridiculousness in order to paint him as black and evil as possible. They make him to be some 2D caricature of a villain, which is far from it. Being an asshole does not mean one is evil, and 'nice' does not always equate to good. Young Tom Riddle was charming and nice to people, and he murdered in cold blood. Severus was a rude SOB and yet will still save your life. And that has so much meaning, more than people are willing to see. I prefer the asshole to the 'nice person' because at least the asshole will have my back. The thing with this fandom is that Snape fans express any liking for the character, and we get attacked, harassed, and accused of being things we are not. Liking a character's goodness more than his darkness should not be a crime, and yet other people make it so. Do you have any idea how much Snape fans are harassed and abused? I've endured threats in DMs, publically bullied, and been accused of being something ridiculous and outrageous like a 'Nazi supporter' or 'abuse condoner'. I know other fans who have been sent death and rape threats, have had their car vandalized, and have been made to feel unsafe because of Snape haters. They don't make the fandom fun to be a part of anyone, because of the few people who treat us like we are criminals. All because of a fictional character. So maybe it's the Snape bashers who need to gain a little more moral perspective and learn not to harass and treat people like shit for expressing their favoritism for a character, and stop spreading hate and malice on every single social media platform they can get their hate-filled hands on.

Hawwah

"There was no way he could have known that Sirius was using his animagus form to sneak into the school. " The opposite is true. There's no way Lupin could have *not* know Black was using his animagus form to sneak into the school. Lupin believed Black was a mass-murderer determined to kill Harry and probably anyone unlucky enough to happen to cross his path. Lupin was also the only one (sans Peter) who knew that Black was an unregistered animagus. He knew that Black's animagus ability could help him immensely in overcoming the safety measures at Hogwarts. (And it did!) Everyone was wondering how Black escaped Azkaban and how he was sneaking into Hogwarts because no one knew Black was an animagus. Except for Lupin. Lupin wasn't dumb, he could put 1 + 1 together. And yet he didn’t tell Dumbledore for the whole school year! Why? Because he was afraid Dumbledore might get angry and/or disappointed with him. To Lupin, preserving his image was more important than Harry’s life. He didn’t tell even after Black actually broke into the castle, and again not even after Black broke into Harry’s bedroom! He could at least warn Harry to beware of big black dogs who weren't Fang. At the very least. He did nothing. Lupin is a much darker character than most people realize.

Hawwah

@itsadancething What I'm saying is that I don't accept uncritically everything JKR says. Let's take the love potions for example. Rowling clearly intended them to be funny and didn't put much thought into them. They are treated as a joke. However, many readers have pointed out that their usage has horrible moral implications that aren't addressed in the books at all. And they're absolutely right. Love potions are something that looks innocent, funny and whimsical at the first sight but becomes sinister when you think about it for a while. And that's just one example out of many. Some people say, well, Rowling clearly intended these things to be funny, so laugh and move on, don't think about it too much. But I don't think this is the right approach. I reckon people should think about what they read, form their own opinions and not blindly accept everything the author says. So to answer your question, yes, I believe JKR can sometimes be wrong even if she talks about her own universe she created. (I have to go now but I'll be back to address your points about Severus. I just want to say I don't think you were rude to me. I apprecciate the fact that while you're critical of Severus, you also acknowledge his redeeming qualities. Sadly, not anyone is capable of this. There are people out there who consider Severus the devil incarnate and claim that he was a child abuser which is just ludicrous.)

Hawwah

I'm guilty as charged, but honestly, what can you fit in in 3 or 4 sentences?

Hawwah

We'll discuss it in future chapters for sure, but just the fact that Lupin was willing to risk Harry's life to protect his own reputation... That's so much worse than anything Snape ever did. Lupin and Lockhart have much more in common than meets the eye.

Preetam Ozarde

@ Veggie Gamer No worries, Veggie. No tempers flying here. @Michelle @Hawwah I actually thought we were having a civil back forth with each other. I do know what you are talking about however and yes it sad to see that there are places where you think you cannot state your own opinion without getting labeled or threatened. But please atleast in this thread, don't lump us all into one category and address the arguments that we made. Because you went into generalizations in your first reply to comment then stated that I went on tangents when I tried to address all your points. I have also repeatedly said in my comments that I can see both sides. It is you guys who refuse to accept a view other than your own. I never exaggerated anything. Also, I never said he 'abused' his students. I said specifically that he 'abused his power'. Two very different things. Like I said, the difference in McGonagall and Snape for me is the difference between punishing students because your job requires it and enjoying the job because of that fact. @ Hawwah Yes, indeed there are things that JKR does not know/did not intend about the universe of Harry Potter. But for me, my opinion on whether Snape is a bully depends on whether he enjoys belittling or insulting students and taking sick satisfaction from it. What I read in books is enough for me to say that it does bring him joy. And since we do not see Snape's POV I chose to defer to what JKR said for this specific topic to use as my evidence along with the other things I mentioned. @Michelle @Hawwah Regardless, since we don't actually see Snape's POV, you are not going to accept this. So let's just agree to disagree. I respect your opinion, though I don't agree with it. Hopefully, you all can do the same. @itsadancething I agree with everything you said.

itsanursething

I don’t understand what you mean. How did he risk Harry’s life? And I didn’t even mention Snape in my comment. I don’t appreciate you vilifying every other character to try to justify Snape’s actions. He was not a nice person. I understand that he’s your favorite character, and that’s totally fine, but he’s not everyone else’s. That doesn’t take away from how much you like him. I think everyone needs to stop talking about Snape because these don’t feel like discussions anymore.

itsanursething

@Hawwah In the beginning of PS, Neville was still afraid that he was a squib. That there was some mistake and everyone was going to realize that he wasn't magic after all. So him being afraid and messing up makes sense. It's, unfortunately, a self-fulfilling prophecy. Neville is constantly told he can't so he thinks he can't so he doesn't. McGonagall was tough, and maybe she didn't compliment, but she allowed others to help him learn.

Sofie Eklund

Greatings from Sweden! Love your videos :) Fun fact: In the Swedish version of the books Tom Riddle's name is Tom Dolder, so it would fit with the spelling of "I am Lord Voldemort" in Swedish. Also Lockhart's name is Gyllenroy Lockman, Crookshanks's is Krumben and Buckbeak's is Vingfåle... I suffer from dyslexia myself and it was a trip to watch the movies for the first time, and to realise how all the English names should be prononced. :) I love Lupin's lesson with the Bogart in the book and the movie. However, I wish they hadn't shown the "Dementor" in that scene in the movie. It makes Lupin jumping in front of Harry less important. The whole point of him stepping in was to prevent a "dementor" or a version of Voldemort to appear in the classroom.

itsanursething

@Hawwah You're making it sound like Lupin was actively plotting against Harry. It wasn't malicious. Yes, Lupin wanted his condition to be kept secret, but I completely understand why. It's his business! He doesn't need the whole school talking about it. I also wouldn't be surprised if most, if not all, of the teachers were aware. Dumbledore knew, Snape knew (because he was brewing the potion), McGonagall knew (she was his head of house when he was in school), Sprout knew (she planted the whomping willow)... As for not telling Dumbledore Sirius was an animagus, for all we know, the moment Sirius went to Azkaban, Remus could very well have gone to Dumbledore and told him everything. He lost all of his best friends in one night. He probably talked to someone he trusted about it. Also, they were all in the Order of the Phoenix. The members (including Dumbledore) probably knew they were unregistered animagi and used that skill to their advantage. For that matter, for all we know, Dumbledore and Lupin could have been having closed door meetings about Sirius all year long. Harry wouldn't have known, which is why it never ended up in the book. Lupin cared about Harry's life. Of course he did. Harry was the only thing remaining of his two best friends. Was Lupin a dark character, yes, but a dark thing happened to him as a child. He was turned into a werewolf! But he did his best to deal with his condition as safely as he could. I'm sorry you see it so differently.

Methanoutput

Wow that are many comments and some serious discussions, read through all of it and enjoyed the different opinions on those chapters! im just gonna keep it short now, im happy for you veggie, that you got your mention of Penelope in the first chapter, since you enjoy the Percy "storyline" so much! :D I have plenty of [CLOSED] meme templates, ready when you are! :D

S1lm4r1l

Lupin didn't 'know' Black was using his Animagus abilities. He thought it possible but convinced himself he was using other means that he'd learned from Voldemort. Nevertheless, he didn't tell Dumbledore what he knew and that was incredibly dangerous.

S1lm4r1l

McGonagall very rarely awarded points and gave out praise to anyone. And whilst she (like Snape) was frustrated and annoyed with his many flaws, she didn't repeatedly humiliate him in every single class, nor did she tell other teachers to be careful around him. Trying to equate McGonagall's treatment of Neville with Snape's is frankly ludicrous. Furthermore, whilst Neville failed in Potions spectacularly he did receive an Acceptable in Transfiguration. Enough to pass, but not enough to continue to NEWT level. We aren't ever told what Neville got in his Potions OWL.

Hawwah

I write about it in another thread. Lupin knew Black was an animagus and yet he didn't tell Dumbledore for the whole school year because he was afraid Dumbledore would be angry with him. Lupin himself admits that during the confrontation in the Shrieking Shack. I never said Severus Snape was a nice, sweet, pleasant, warm or cordial person. I fully agree with you that he was none of these things. I say that he was a good person. Those are two totally different and unrelated concepts. I don't mind if people don't like Snape. I just wish they would be fair to him. Yes, he was a strict teacher, but he was objectively no worse than McGonagall. Calling him a bully or a child abuser is absurd and people can't act surprised when it elicits strong reactions.

Hawwah

@itsadancething I'm not talking about Lupin being a werewolf. I'm talking about him not telling Dumbledore that Black was an animagus. "for all we know, the moment Sirius went to Azkaban, Remus could very well have gone to Dumbledore and told him everything" No, he didn't. We know this because Lupin himself admits it during the confrontation in the Shrieking Shack. Perhaps you need to refresh your memory of these chapters. (I don't mean it in a bad way. It's natural that people forget.) I don't think Lupin acted out of malice. And I agree that he cared about Harry's life. But he cared about his own reputation more. And that's why Severus Snape was so much better and braver person than Lupin. Snape sacrificed his reputation to protect the students. Lupin risked students' lives to protect his reputation. "Was Lupin a dark character, yes, but a dark thing happened to him as a child. " That's not what I meant. I meant that he was a morally dark character.

itsanursething

That’s just it though. Your comments come across like you think he can do no wrong. Like everything he says and does is completely acceptable. What I gather from other people’s comments is what I said: he’s a jerk, but ultimately a good person. His behavior toward his students is what we disagree with. An adult in a position of power (like a teacher) should not call a child stupid, especially not when they are trying to learn, and especially not to their face or in front of other people. Publicly shaming students is not ok for a teacher. I agree, McGonagall has done it too, and I don’t find that ok, but she doesn’t do it at nearly the frequency Snape does. He also seems to find pleasure in making his students feel bad. I haven’t interpreted any of the other comments from other Patrons as saying Snape is completely bad. I think it is fair to say though that someone could interpret his behavior as bullying. If you don’t see it that way, that’s fine, but a lot of people do. I’m sure Neville did. He had so much anxiety and self-doubt already and Snape found ways to make him feel even more useless instead of trying to help him.

itsanursething

Lupin was ostracized his entire life for something completely out of his control. Maybe he was afraid to admit something that made him look bad, but I don’t blame him. He was afraid of losing one of the few people in his life who still respected him. How would you feel if everyone was afraid of you and hated you for what you were your whole life? Would you maybe make a poor choice now and then to keep your friends? I don’t see it as Lupin risking their lives either. Sirius was on the loose, so they were in danger/at risk regardless. He didn’t share some important information, yes, but he wasn’t dangling the kids out as bait. And comparing him to Lockhart is extremely insulting. Lockhart was a moron who was only good at caring about himself and trying to become famous. Lupin was extreme intelligent, an excellent teacher, and he did care for all of his students. To say otherwise is just completely false. He made mistakes, yes, but he’s human. Everyone makes mistakes.

Michelle Linardis

@Preetam Ozarde Honestly, I wouldn't have had an issue if people just let a Snape fan have their comment so Veggie can respond, and instead I've/we've been dealing with the usual torches and pitchforks, merely because we wanted to recorrect some common misconceptions with those chapters. Because I know full well there are several other anti-Snape comments that people wanted Veggie to see, so why are they allowed to express their hate, and those who like Snape are condemned? I don't get it. People make it appear as if Severus was the equivalent of Voldemort or Umbridge, and I find that highly annoying. No, you have that completely wrong. I do see both sides, that's why I defend him from superficial accusations. For seven books JKR has conditioned readers to see from Harry's POV, and Slytherin = bad/evil from the get-go in the first book. So already readers have this bias forced upon them because the protagonist is a Gryffindor, considered to be the 'good' House, so every other poor Slytherin is forever condemned to be the bad guys. And I say this AS someone who considers themselves a Gryffindor. I criticize my own House because of this bias that Gryffindors can do no wrong. That is far from it. Yes, I know there are legit terrible/evil Slytherins, but there are also actual terrible/evil Gryffindors (Peter Pettigrew). Not all DEs were in Slytherin. So the default prejudice from the books says that Severus is bad because Harry thinks he's bad, so the readers have to believe that too (disregarding that he was painted as the red-herring anyway, but he proved to not be the one to steal the stone, but Harry was convinced he's still evil anyway, so readers have to go with that). And that is the category you fall in. You are still stuck in Harry's POV, and have not learned to pull away from that bias that JKR has painted for you. I have since moved away from that and I see view Severus in a lens not tainted by Harry's, so I can judge him with a more adult and logical approach. You have stated he did good things, then continued to harp on about him being mean and enjoying punishment, which is not 'seeing both sides' at all. This is merely listing a generalization of the good he did, and continuing to bash him in your own way. That is not seeing both sides. I have done multiple character analyses of him over the years, going over his good and bad traits in detail, and drawing in the reasons he was the person he became. Explaining the way he acts a certain way is not absolving him or 'excusing him' (a favorite word amongst bashers) because the point of his character is for him to be the hidden (anti)hero. His redemption already happened before the events of the first book which began the moment he turned to Dumbledore to plea for Lily's life. That is when he turned from the DEs - the winning side at the time - to confront the enemy and plea for a life while risking his own. That redemption continued when he accepted Dumbledore's request to protect Harry when he arrived and has since adhered to that pledge. And yet people only see that he was a mean SOB therefore he's automatically evil, and fail to see the nuances of him and what makes him tick. That one-sided/black-and-white view that people have is what I take issue with, and this is what I get from your comments. So what he enjoyed giving punishments/berating children? Why is that such a big issue? He was a teacher who consistently reminds the students that there are rules to follow and consequences when those rules are broken. That doesn't make him a terrible person. McGonagall sure felt no remorse for sending multiple 11-year-old to the Dark Forest at night to help Hagrid find the attacker of a unicorn or denying Neville his right to safety in his own common room by not giving him a password when a known murderer was loose in the school, or being ashamed of Neville because he could do certain spells in time for the other schools to arrive during the TriWizard Tournament. And Filch constantly boasts about corporeal punishment, and yet no one goes after him. Trelawney ends up drunk, and Flitwick can call Seamus a baboon brandishing a stick, without consequence. And you also don't think Dumbledore enjoyed awarding a large number of points so that Gryffindor can go from Forth place to First? Hagrid can bring dangerous creatures and not even think twice about the harm that could happen to a student - and that is exactly what happened. And yet only Severus is condemned for simply enforcing rules as a teacher should by deducting a small number of points at a time and giving very harmless, mediocre, and even boring detentions. Oh, the horror. This is where double standards become a problem in this fandom. People don't hold all the characters to the same standard and just go after one because of the novelty of hating one for barely a logical reason at all and forget that other characters did equally/worse things. That is your Harry-bias talking. Kindly pull yourself away from it and then you can learn to see the other side.

Preetam Ozarde

I am not condemning you for having your viewpoint on Snape nor am I coming at you with pitchforks. It's also not like I don't want Veggie to see your opinion. I only replied in this thread specifically because I knew that Veggie wouldn't see these replies. I simply stated why I feel the way I do about Snape and this particular scene. Maybe you've become too jaded with dealing with people having my viewpoint and are getting aggravated. Which also makes sense to me. I have already said all I needed to say really. But one last thing I do wish to state is that you think just because I said he was a bully he was a terrible and evil person. Which I never said. I also didn't condemn him for being a bully. I simply stated that he was and that it was a part of his tragedy as a character. In my eyes, he's a good guy who did bad things. Not the other way around. He had his flaws just like everyone else in the story. I tried to tell you the same thing you stated- that there is a reason he ended up this way. And I'm sympathetic to him because of that. I made the same point in my first reply but you shrugged it off saying you've done numerous analyses on Snape and that I was going off on tangents. I apologize for making you discuss a topic you clearly didn't want to discuss in the first place. Let's just end it here then shall we?

Michelle Linardis

I've become jaded because this fandom had never been kind, nor are you allowed to express your love for a fictional character without being crucified for it. Finding a safe place to have your say without people personally coming at you is very difficult to find these days. I've never, in all my years of multiple fandoms, seen one filled with so much blind hate before. Bashing a character for every little minor thing has become such a strange popular novelty, and a lot of that has to do with woke and cancel culture when this series was written and set in the 90s. No, Severus' tragedy is his guilt, and never being able to let go of the mistake that cost Lily her life - that's the crux of the character. That guilt made him a bitter, resentful man, and a part of that tragedy is never being able to forgive himself for it. He was never able to move on because he was stuck in a war serving two masters 'for the Greater Good', and was never able to make a proper life for himself. He sacrificed true friendship, even the possibility of a family, by playing the long game. He was a mean-spirited asshole who was never able to heal from his own trauma, which goes so heartbreakingly unnoticed by people in this fandom. This book is a perfect representation of his trauma and PTSD where Remus/The Mauraders were concerned, and yet people perceive Severus' behavior as petty and childish. No, he was reliving some very painful moments in his life, once again facing those bullies who truly did traumatize him and make his school days hell. And here they came back and continued to treat him terribly. But people are so disturbingly fixated on hating him, that they ignore the reason for his pain. Maybe because I not only see things a little more logically but from an empathetic viewpoint as well. I still do not think of him as a bully - just an overbearing teacher who is doing what any teacher would do to ensure students abide by the rules within his care. People only see red when they see Severus and refused to see anything else. Because of all the characters in this series, he is the most human of all. His pain, his suffering, his trauma, his self-loathing...It's very relatable. And it's sad when people just do not see that, and ONLY see that he can be cruel with his words, and permanently label him evil/abuser/villain. That is uncalled for, and frankly, a huge exaggeration of his character. I am happy to end this here, because clearly we have different views, and you still don't quite see from mine. You spent most of your time condemning him, so any 'good' you felt you said of him means nothing. They were merely brushed off because of your fixation on seeing him only as a 'bully.' Right now, I'm thankful for people who actually do genuinely understand his character from all sides and not just the 'bully' they only want to see him as. I take comfort in that. At least I can share a little more of an empathetic conversation with them and not waste my time trying to convince people that he is not the devil incarnate they paint him as. I sure hope people don't judge people, in reality, the way they judge Severus. The world has enough problems.

Methanoutput

At first I did not want to enter this discussion, because even though I have read the books multiple times, I felt that this was getting really in depth of Snape's story and didn't want to write something wrong. But I have heard an interesting theory in the German "Harry Podcast" by coldmirror, maybe some of you know the podcast. Maybe the author wanted, at first, a mean teacher for Ron and Harry to hate. Maybe she had not had the full story of snape fleshed out, until a certain point. So now she has a teacher that many could see as mean but she also has to make all His action justifiable so his whole story makes sense. I don't know if this makes sense, just a thought about this snape discussion.

Kattie Martin

The scene where the trio are checking up on Hagrid and he gets upset with Harry and says that he’s (Hagrid) not worth visiting was more upsetting this time around. You are worth it Hagrid.

itsanursething

@Jonas That’s interesting! I have always found Snape to be a very complex and interesting character. What you said makes sense to me! After all of this back and forth, regardless of what was intended by the author, I think Snape’s character can be interpreted in a lot of different ways, just like with real people. Even if a person intends one thing, someone could interpret another. Thank you for sharing!

Jacqueline Chaiton

This has gotten way out of hand, it's gone from debate to argument. Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation as it is art and art is subjective. No one's opinion is going to be changed here so let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Diego Zenhäusern

I really enjoy that we see how an adult and experienced wizard (i.e. Mr. Weasley) crosses the barrier to plattform 9 3/4 by just nonchalantly leaning against it instead of running towards it like a madman😅 Also: Hermione: "I hope there’s something good for lunch, I’m starving." I never thought about this before, but of course Hermione would only get to eat lunch once a day even on a day where she's time turning because of her timetable.😯 So on those days poor Hermione has to go multiple additional hours without eating anything more than everyone else😥

Lisette C.

Two points that hasn't been brought up in the comments yet. I absolutely love Dumbledore for hiring Hagrid as a teacher the moment his name is cleared. I have no doubt that it was politics that somehow kept him from doing this for Hagrid sooner. Also, I was always amazed at how the kids all knew their greatest fear right away. I don't think I could give an answer straight away if someone asked me.

Garry (Not Jerry)

Why do you think Malfoy decided to take care of magical creatures? It doesn’t seem like a very “Malfoy”-ish subject. Is he secretly an animal-lover? He doesn’t have a pet though, does he?

S1lm4r1l

Well he sure as hell wasn't taking Muggle Studies now was he?

Janie

Well, he's got an owl... maybe he wants to know how to take care of it? But you're right it isn't very typical for him XD

Will

Hi Veggie! This is my first time in a book club so this is very exciting. Prisoner of Azkaban is also my favorite book so I had to join the club. What I find interesting about the dementor chapter is that, it already foreshadows Harry's fear for the dementors by how much more they affect him and him closing his eyes when they go past them. In the same chapter there is also a reference to the sneakoscope which goes off. Many would assume it's because of the dementors, but I always imagined it was because of Pettigrew. The last bit I have to mention is how much more angry and disgusted Snape looked when Dumbledore announced Lupin as the new teacher, knowing their past history.

Rebecca May

@Michelle Linardis - Late to the party I know, but I’ve been quietly following this thread for a while and I just wanted to thank you for how beautifully you’ve expressed all of your points. Also, hello from a fellow Gryffindor!

Kunzite Blossom

Finally caught up on the audio books so first time posting in book club. In chapter 5 did you notice how when arriving to Hogwarts Harry thinks about how the carriages must be pulled by invisible horses? I feel this is very clever since it comes back into play later on.

Kunzite Blossom

Not many options. We can easily rule out muggle studies, let's face it. No way would he care about that enough to pass. I could see him taking arithmancy given he was really good at potions, and I feel like being good with numbers would help out in potions. Which leaves one more elective he could take. CoMC, Divination and Ancient Runes. Draco doesn't seem like the type to believe in divination, similarly to Hermione. So it really comes down to CoMC and Ancient Runes. Ancient Runes would mean actually having to study while CoMC would be somewhat easier. Probably easier to tell apart different creatures then different runes. Not to mention I believe CoMC is needed for potions and DADA careers. I could be mistaken though.

Garry (Not Jerry)

I imagine lupin was very committed to being a good teacher and very diligent. He probably spent some time memorising all of the names.

Garry (Not Jerry)

Hey Embran, just a gentle reminder about the rules on comment length. If we don’t stick to it, I imagine veggie is not going to have time to read them all, which would be a shame. I’d try to make only one or two important points. Also, your point about upcoming care or magical creature and DADA classes is technically a spoiler, as they do not appear in the movie. I agree with you about the train though, I didn’t like that they skipped over that bit with lupin just suddenly jumping up and making a patronus in the movie

Garry (Not Jerry)

Hey I don’t want to get involved in the snape debate (not right now anyway), just wanted to point out that the “marauders” aren’t really mentioned in the movies (other than it being a map), nor snapes relationship with lupin very much, so I think that should be removed from the comment. Also just a gentle reminder about the rule on comment length. If comments are too long, veggie won’t have time to get through them all, which would be a shame.

Jake M

I understand that, but before seeing them in the first lesson he realistically wouldn't know what they look like to put a face to the name- unless he was a skilled legilimens without us knowing!

Garry (Not Jerry)

Hawwah I know the frog incident is all in your wheelhouse what with it being an important and controversial Snape moment and all. That being said, just a gentle reminder about the rules on comment length. If we don’t stick to it, I imagine veggie is not going to have time to read them all, which would be a shame. I know you’re a Snape fan, but I’m actually interested in your thoughts on Lupin. As a teacher, I really like that he includes all of his students - for example, asking Harry a question, rather than just letting Hermione answer everything (I.e what other teachers do). He also picks Neville to be an example, showing that he believes in him, and giving him the confidence to perform at his best. (It would appear that Neville responds much better to positive reenforcement - rather than - let’s say “heavy pressure” and punishment which is what Snape tends to use)

Gothic Llama

Hello there! I can't wait for you to learn more about Sirius and the super cool badass Ginny (can you tell she's my favourite?) throughout the books, and I hope you're having a lot of fun with this book as many of us did the first time reading it. Really loving the little stares between Ginny and Harry when something funny happens-the early signs of her true character that was never shown in movies. There is one thing I've been thinking about - if Hagrid's innocence had been proven in the last book, could he possibly finish his Hogwarts education and get a new wand? I mean he was wrongly expelled in third year so it would be nice to let him finish his studies. Also, I am currently re-reading the 20th Anniversary Ravenclaw edition of the books, and wanted to share some interesting facts: - Rowena Ravenclaw's marble statue is in the common room and she supposedly died of a broken heart, she also was best friends with Helga Hufflepuff - Some famous Ravenclaws are: Mr Ollivander, Prof Trelawney and Ignatia Wildsmith (she invented the Floo powder) - apparently the Sorting Hat was torn between placing Flitwick in Gryffindor and Ravenclaw

Garry (Not Jerry)

Interesting idea but I’m not convinced. Hermione’s fear is failure (as evidenced by the incident you are referring to) but I think Neville is genuinely just afraid of professor snape.

Garry (Not Jerry)

I know, and my fear is he’s not going to have time to read them all. And it looks like this series is getting more and more popular every time!

Garry (Not Jerry)

I think Hagrid is quite happy living and working at hogwarts, where he gets to take care of animals and grow vegetables. I can’t imagine that formal education is really something that he desires or would be any good at. I suppose having a “real” wand would be nice.

Garry (Not Jerry)

Yeah, Good point. I wonder if they have school portraits or something he can match them to.

Garry (Not Jerry)

Yeah I think you’re right this definitely boils down to “least effort”. I’d think his father may have preferred him to do arithmancy and ancient runes though.

Jake M

Or perhaps they wear nametags? The shopping list in Philosopher's Stone does say robes must be labelled...I assumed it was for laundry purposes, though, rather than obviously emblazoned for identification.

Kunzite Blossom

I know, the book club section will eventually be longer then the actual book review. Last one is 4 hours and I still haven't had a chance to sit down and listen to it, might honestly skip the book club portion, or skip through bits and pieces.

Kunzite Blossom

I never thought of that for Hermione. There is no way she could go to lunch multiple times without being seen. I wonder if she did pack snacks to eat quickly? But snacks aren't very filling so she would be starving.

Kunzite Blossom

Could be he found out Harry and them would be in CoMC and decided to take it just to annoy them

Garry (Not Jerry)

I don’t know that it’s clear what memory is being brought back at this point, I don’t remember if its in the movie - Certainly not in detail. Seems a little spoiler-y?

S1lm4r1l

Hmm. I wouldn't necessarily call it a spoiler. Given he has the movie knowledge. Besides, its only a theory. There's no conclusive evidence to say that it is Voldy's memory.

S1lm4r1l

Certainly it hints at a lot more things in later books.

Garry (Not Jerry)

Separate point: I don’t think this is what lupin is doing. He didn’t know that snape was Neville’s fear when he planned the lesson. He just tried to think of a way to make snape funny - in a way that would be easy for Neville (imagining his grandmothers clothes). Unless you’re talking about something else?

Rebecca May

I'm not saying that Neville isn't afraid of Professor Snape at all... I just get sick of people using this scene as a "gotcha" point against Snape (in relation to Bellatrix *not* being his greatest fear)... We see constantly through all the books that Neville is dreadfully afraid of the consequences of failure, whether those consequences come from Snape, McGonagall, his grandmother, his uncle, letting down his friends, etc. Severus Snape just happens to be the person at the forefront of Neville's mind in this lesson, given that he was in the classroom mere moments before. Thus, the simplest physical representation of Neville's fear, but not literally the greatest fear he has.

Fiur

I really like the chapters where we get to see more of the Hogwarts classes themselves...like witnessing a whole class of Divination or to get a glimpse of McGonagalls Transfiguration class. Did you notice that she taught the students what an Animagus is? We know this gets important later on. I am nonetheless a little sad that subjects like Muggle Studies, Arithmancy or Ancient Runes only get mentioned without us experiencing what exactly the students learn in those classes. Also we can already see that the relationship between Ron and Hermione is much more complicated than shown in the films. They quarrel more in the books. Much more! As always...keep up the good work, Veggie. I wish you a great start into the new year! Greetings from Germany.

Hawwah

Hi Garry, sorry for the late reply. You're right that my comments tend to be long. I did my best to shorten this one - it was originally even longer - and I think that while it's still one of the longer ones, it's not unreasonably long. It's even not the longest comment in this HP Book Club - that would be the comment by Embran. My opinions on Lupin - do you mean Lupin as a person or Lupin as a teacher? To be honest, I don't have a very high opinion of Lupin as a person. I think he's in many ways the exact opposite of Snape. Snape is an unpleasant, morose and acerbic person on the outside, while secretly being an extremely brave, selfless and self-sacrificing person on the inside. Lupin on the other hand is very pleasant and friendly in day-to-day contact, but when it comes to the crunch, he repeatedly makes very selfish, morally wrong choices out of cowardice. The most prominent examples of this behavior are of course 1) not telling Dumbledore about Black being an animagus and thus knowingly putting every inhabitant of Hogwarts at risk, 2) abusing his prefect status to enable/cover-up Marauders' bullying when he was a student and 3) abandoning his pregnant wife at the exact moment when she was the most in need of his support. l think Lupin is a reasonably good teacher. I agree with your point of asking Harry a question instead of letting Hermione answer everything (however, many fans consider it evil when Snape does the very same thing - that's the double standard I was talking about). I also agree that positive reinforcement probably works better than negative one. However, I don't think Lupin is a perfect or ideal teacher. One example: Hermione. She didn't get a try against a boggart in her first DADA lesson. At the end of the year, Hermione failed her practical exam when she encountered a boggart. Knowing Hermione, it was not because of the lack of preparation. Hermione had a disadvantage because she didn't actually face a boggart in the class before like her classmates. I don't think that was fair.

Hawwah

@Garry Hall I think it's dishonest to pick and choose which boggart we interpret literally and which one we don't.

Garry (Not Jerry)

Possibly, but it seems that other teachers tend to not know the names of the students on the first day. The fact that he uses their first names instead of their last makes him seem very friendly and personal. I always found that the way different characters use first or last names is very interesting.

Garry (Not Jerry)

well I guess it can't really be only a theory, because you have the knowledge of the whole book (presumably). It would be a just a theory if you didn't know what was going to happen. Plus, you literally wrote "hint hint".

Garry (Not Jerry)

I agree with all of your points about his character. He is far from perfect. I love the moment when Harry calls him out for abandoning his wife. I don't think there was enough time for everyone to have a turn with the boggart. Also, later on when Molly attempts to get rid of one, it is implied that it can be done on your own, so really having an entire class is just overkill. I wonder if he could have let the other students try in a separate lesson. Although I suppose boggarts are hard to come by. He did manage to find one for training Harry and one for the final exam, so it certainly would have been possible. Good point. The only time I remember Snape doing this is in the first ever potions class. In that case it seemed like he knew that a first year in his first ever potions class probably would not know the answer, and so it seemed like a deliberate attempt to single out Harry and embarrass him (feel free to dispute this though). I'm not sure if there are other times when he does this, but I'm sure if there are then you are right about it being a double standard.

Garry (Not Jerry)

I mean...sure, but Lupin literally asks "what is your greatest fear" and Neville literally says "Professor Snape", so...yeah. Case and point. Hermione isn't ever shown to be afraid of Professor Mcgonagall. It's possible she may be, I suppose. The author never mentions it. She seems perfectly happy in transfiguration classes. Mcgonagall told Hermione that she failed everything, that's why Hermione was afraid and she ran away. Snape doesn't say anything like this to Neville. It seems pretty straightforward to me...

Garry (Not Jerry)

By the way, I wasn't singling you out on the comment-length. I said the same thing on Embran's comment.

Rebecca May

@Garry Hall - I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on this one then. :) I will only suggest that taking the word of 13-year-old children at face value when interpreting such a complex issue doesn’t seem to me to be the best way of understanding the characters. After all, Harry’s boggart is a Dementor, and he believes this creature to be his greatest fear until Lupin himself says - “I’m impressed. That suggests that what you fear most of all is - fear. Very wise, Harry.” Lupin - a character whom I very much love and respect - swiftly interprets the physical cues given by the Boggart to understand Harry’s deepest fear. I have attempted to apply this in my approach to other characters, but of course you are more than welcome to disagree with my interpretation. :)

Thunderbird

I really love all the Care of magical Creatures lessons and I think it is a pity they only show the first one in the movie. Also I just wanted to mention that Hagrid knows what he is doing in the books. Not just concerning the creatures but also when Malfoy gets hurt. Unlike in the movie where Hermione has to tell him to bring Malfoy in the hospital wing. I think he is actually doing a good job as a teacher. On another subject, Ron is picking up really fast about Hermione not telling them about the timeturner. He always asks her how she manages to take all the subjects and notices when she is gone. He is really looking out for her which is great to see this early since they become a couple. The boggart scene was amazing as well (very different fears than in the movie). While rereading this scene, this was the first time that I noticed (probably because I just watched «Wednesday») that Dean’s boggart is Thing from the Addams family 😄. Do you have any theories what Hermione’s boggart could be?

Garry (Not Jerry)

okay, I see what you're saying now. For me, when Lupin says "what you fear most of all is - fear", I don't interpret that as Lupin looking at a deeper meaning behind Harry's boggart. I interpret it as him describing what a Dementor is. Yes, Dementors are a physical manifestation of fear. But this is precisely why Harry's fear is "dementors", not "fear itself". Does that make sense? Put it this way. My favourite food is pizza. Pizza is an Italian dish. Therefore, my favourite food is an Italian dish. Technically true, but if you ask me what my favourite food is, it's still pizza (not "an Italian dish"). Same thing. Harry's fear is dementors. Dementor's are a manifestation of fear itself. Therefore Harry's fear is "fear itself". Technically true, but his fear is still dementors.

Garry (Not Jerry)

Ron actually got pretty close with his joke answer didn't he?

Renee Pope-Munro

Intimidation and other fear-based tools are not valid educational strategies. Period. I think, dear Veggie, that you are seeing with full force in this comments section why Snape is such a polarising character. I think, like many of the most interesting literary characters, he is not simply one thing. Snape can be brave, sacrificing of himself and fiercely protective. It can simultaneously be true that he a man who takes out his petty grievances against people who are neither responsible for those grievances, nor in a position to challenge him. On the question of his teaching though, I think the proof is in the performance of those he most consistently targets, when he is not present, creating an unsafe environment for growth. Both Harry and Neville improve significantly when not being targeted.

Loveinthehat

I know you’re a Snape fan and that’s cool but oh wow some of these comments seem a bit much… considering no one mentioned him here?

Hawwah

Snape's grievance with Neville is that Neville is extremely reckless and constantly endangers the whole classroom with his sloppy work. How is Neville not responsible for his poor work in potions?

Jake M

I'm not a Neville apologist, but I disagree with Hawwah's point that Neville is *wilfully* reckless and doesn't care about other people- he might certainly endanger students, but he clearly shows he cares as early as Philosopher's Stone when he faces his fears and steps out alone to find Harry & Hermione the night they get rid of Norberta, trying to warn them. He also answers the call to help his friends in OotP and HBP, too. I think he's oblivious to how dangerous his negligence in potions can be. Bear in mind, he's only 13 at this point. If this was the real world, potion ingredients would definitely have an 18 age restriction like fireworks, given how volatile and potentially dangerous they can be. No way an average thirteen year old appreciates the potential danger of fireworks as much as an adult does. Similarly, I don't think Neville appreciates how dangerous bad potionmaking could prove to be.

Jake M

I didn't realise that was an unpopular opinion, I always disliked Snape, but then I read the books first. I wonder how many Snape fans began with Rickman's version? 🤔 (Edit: removed 'apologist' as wasn't aware of the connotations that it had in the fandom. Replaced with 'fans')

Starryk

@Hawwah: i really like Veggies responses to your comment about Snape and Neville. You critique other for being blind in their hate of Snape but your comments also show a blind eye and you accuse Neville without any textal proof. Neville is so afraid of Snape that he can't concentrate on the lesson. Snape surely doesn't help him to ease that.

Hawwah

@Starry Believe it or not, I don't hate Neville. I'm actually quite fond of him. That doesn't change the fact that he's a bad student, though. "Neville is so afraid of Snape that he can't concentrate on the lesson." In the very first potions lesson (PS, chapter 8) Snape didn't pay any special attention to Neville. Neville still botched his potion, hurt himself and endangered his classmates. Only AFTER that Snape started to pay extra attention to him. Neville is also bad at transfiguration. Is he afraid of McGonagall, too?

Jake M

@Gerry Hall Ron seems to get a lot of things right with his jokes, just look at the predictions he makes in Divination... unexpected windfall (Triwizard winnings about a year and a half later), someone stabbing Harry in the back, losing a treasured possession... Maybe he's a better seer than Trelawney XD

Jake M

I hate to dig up old news, and I think both sides have good and eloquently made points, but please don't dismiss the teeth incident as "big deal LOL", Michelle. I had teachers who made similar comments about my laugh at school and while you might think 'big deal', it's a trivial incident, it felt awful having an authority figure being snide and I still vividly remember the shame I felt at them pointing it out to the rest of the class- tried to hide my laugh from that day onward, but that's by the by, back to the books...Hermione ran off in tears because of Snape's jibe and missed an entire class (very unHermione!) so it was definitely a big deal to her, she was hoping he would defend her (as any neutral teacher should, both sides were at fault) Anyway, looking forward to reading more essay-length discussions in future book clubs- though hopefully less controversial ones XD.

Renee Pope-Munro

I just fundamentally don’t agree that this Snape’s issue, and we’ll agree to disagree. The idea that Neville is somehow capable of creating such disturbance that a master of potion making like Snape couldn’t resolve it is implausible, and Neville’s mistakes are not as egregious as you frame them anyway. Taking both of these things into account, as well as just basic decency to others, justification for the behaviour towards him is not there.

Michelle Linardis

Actually, most fans liked Snape before Rickman. Nice try, though.

Michelle Linardis

This comment of yours right here is a perfect example of Snaters wanting to pick fights when you just can't resist and let this thread die. Can you prove to me that Hermione was actually cut up about it after the incident? She got her teeth fixed the way she wanted it, and held no grudge of Snape after that. So what's your point here exactly? Yeah, i've been insulted by teachers before. Don't assume ever single person is going to be affected by it. Hermione never thought about it again in fact her outcome was positive, so yes, no big deal.

Jake M

I only jumped in because I don't think you should dismissively laugh about authority figures making snide comments, regardless of who they are. I'm not even a Snape hater, you have just assumed that and immediately jumped down my throat accordingly. I dislike him, but can't deny he has his good moments. Not all Snape likers and Snape haters are the same, they cannot be generalised.

Michelle Linardis

Laugh about it? Where did I laugh about it? And no, I am an observer. I've seen you bash him in your other comments, and dismissing what Snape fans say. I think that more than qualifies, especially as you felt the need to jump into an old thread to complain about it. I think that speaks for itself.

Jake M

Comment number 3, "The teeth incident- Big Deal, LOL" was what I was referring to as laughing. Sorry for bringing it up, as you say it's old news (although it was only read aloud in a video recently, which is what alerted me to it). My mistake. Ceasefire? 🫒🕊️