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Movie Watcher Reads Harry Potter For the First Time! - Prisoner of Azkaban Chapters 5, 6 & 7! (Patreon)

Published:
2023-01-08 15:47:47
Edited:
2023-01-08 16:29:43
Imported:
2026-08
Tags:

Content

Guys.. You had me so worried going into these chapters! XD

I knew there was something controversial in them due to the huge amount of comments in the Book Club.  What will my opinion of it be? Well, you have a 4 hour video to find out! XD

Really loved these chapters.  Full of 'normal life' at Hogwarts, which is much of the stuff I love the most from these books.

I'll be posting the next Book Club post in the next couple of days, so keep an eye out for it so you can be a part of the next one!Note - I do my best to understand everyone's differing opinions when it comes to the Snape situation, and I loved reading every single different take on it! It is a genuine privilege hearing all of your thoughts on it, and respect all of them! :)

I know you all will, but please be respectful in the replies!

Files

Movie Watcher Reads Harry Potter For the First Time! - Prisoner of Azkaban Chapters 5, 6 & 7!

Check out the Patreon for the Full Length Movie reactions (you will need your own copy of the movie remember), and some other early access stuff coming soon! There is no minium Pay amount, so pay as little as you like! :) - https://www.patreon.com/VeggieGamer My Mail Box is Now OPEN! Find the Address and other info here! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G362I7JPgWY Come join the official Veggie Discord server! :) - https://discord.gg/mw36C7d GET YOUR VEGGIE MERCHANDISE HERE! - https://www.redbubble.com/people/VeggieGamer GO GIVE ME A FOLLOW OVER AT TWITCH TO BE A PART OF THE FUN! - https://www.twitch.tv/veggie_gamer GET 15% OFF YOUR E-WIN RACING CHAIR BY USING PROMOTION CODE : Veggie US store: http://www.ewinracing.com/ European store: https://www.ewinracing.eu/ CCs used in my Sims 4 series can now be found here! - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b2u8qVdJ0KAjbtG2ZPHv-DjIs2Ds4xUrtHTiKEVPahA/edit?usp=sharing CHECK ME OUT ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER! - Veggie_Gamer CAN WE GET THIS VIDEO TO 100 LIKES, VEGGIEKNIGHTS?? If you can spare anything, Patreon (NO pressure): Want to see more of this? Give the video a thumbs up and let me know in the comments :) Hit me up on the following websites! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheVeggieGamer/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Veggie_Gamer Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VeggieGamer Be sure to Follow me on Roblox (I can not accept Friend Requests) - https://www.roblox.com/users/135078748/profile End Card music - Artist: UnderwaterBeats Track: Evolution Licence:https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0

Comments

Mary

I have to agree with you. To be honest this part of the book was never really a big issue to me! To make a slightly different point I always assumed that Snape would know what an incorrect potion would do… I assumed he was thinking ‘if Neville does this wrong again Trevor will remain the same’ and he’s taken it as an opportunity to tease Neville. He’s not going to feed Trevor a potion if he doesn’t know what it will do. He also is super talented at potions so by the colour of it etc he’d know where Neville has gone wrong and how that will effect the outcome.

Hawwah

@Mary Yeah, exactly. Professor Snape already knew the potion was perfect when he was feeding it to Trevor.

Janakin B

Gotta say, the Snape wasn‘t trying to poison Trevor comment was biased as hell

Regina

People will not read this as it has been a long time since this was even posted, but I think it‘s also the only reason I‘m actually commenting on this topic because I wouldn’t like to see what comments I‘d get. As a teacher myself of 10-13 year olds, it really upsets me when people defend Snape‘s actions as a teacher. I have no problem if he takes points away. I also have absolute respect for him and his role as a double agent. But I cannot excuse what he does to kids in his care. It pains me to think about what would happen if I used his methods in my own classroom. The thing with Neville‘s toad here is just one example. It actually makes me wince reading these kinds of scenes. And I will mention something from Phoenix here but only because it‘s mentioned in the films. We know the story of Neville‘s parents and more importantly he is aware of what exactly happened to them (not just a watered down explanation for kids) BUT when the boggart comes out his worst fear is his teacher. He is more afraid of this one teacher than of the woman who gave his parents‘ a faith worse than death (as Sirius puts it in the film) or just the thought of that happening to him. Maybe I‘m looking at this from a different POV than most but Snape makes me really uncomfortable in moments like this

Lily Spungle

I've been looking forward to this!

S1lm4r1l

I should point out that not all love potions are created equal. A lot of them have quite mild effects, like (funnily enough,) eating chocolate. You'll definitely have opportunity to explore the morality of love potions later in the series. Hermes was bought for Percy when he became a prefect prior to Book 1. Which is why Ron has Scabbers. You are right regarding the train. The train station at Kings Cross was only created a century or so ago. It's probably a security thing as we are introduced to other methods of students leaving and entering the school in later books. We must also consider that Apparition and brooms are a thing. So the journey from Newcastle to Kings Cross is not as lengthy as it would be to Muggles. Regarding the Toad situation: It's not necessarily that Snape would actually have killed Trevor, (or let him die,) but that Snape was perfectly happy to experiment on Trevor whilst not knowing what would happen. Certainly Neville has no idea whether Trevor would be fine, not fine, able to be cured, permanently damaged etc. Snape's response to a particularly poor student is to threaten to hurt their pets if they don't get it right. It doesn't even work either, because Neville just gets the answers from Hermione, so its not even an effective teaching method. It absolutely is sadistic and I can't really fathom why anyone would try and defend this behaviour but hey-ho. Don't worry too much about comparisons to the movies. It's your only frame of reference so of course its going to dominate your view of how scenes occur in the books. This will also become much less of a problem in later books as there are vast sections of material that never appear in the movies beyond an oblique reference or something in the background of a scene. (Like the Knight riding a Monty Python horse.) Don't beat yourself up about it. Your theory about Hermione's Boggart is much much better than the reality. Creepy yellow eyes.

Hilary Rose

4 hours! Such a treat, and a perfect way to start my Sunday 😊

Annette Elliott

Not sure about the train thing or if it makes other stops. 1. Penelope Clearwater was hiding a blemish/pimple not a spot of liquid in the photo. Lol. 2. On the train there is no way they could tell who cast a spell even with the trace with so many young witches and wizards in one space. 3. Vera Verto was not in the book. It was created just for the movie. So the argument about what Snape did with Neville vs. McGonagall & Ron isn't valid. 4. Care of Magical Creatures was an elective course that can be chosen in the 3rd year.

Raider Max

Yeah not waiting for Monday. Watching now lmao

Hilary Rose

At this point, I don’t think Harry even thinks twice about using Voldemort’s name. He didn’t grow up with the fear of it, so I think he forgets that it bothers other people. I always thought the Muggle-born students should be the same way

Hilary Rose

Harry hasn’t actually seen anyone die at this point. As a baby, he heard his parents die but didn’t see it. Quirrell didn’t actually die in front of him (like he did in the movie), and Tom doesn’t count since he’s just a soul fragment. The basilisk doesn’t count either, but should… it’s not fair that only human death “matters” 😩

Kunzite Blossom

Very true. I never given it much thought that muggle born students also tend to avoid saying the name, but if i'm not mistaken Hermione barely reacts to Harry saying it while Ron does. Possibly wizards grow up fearing it while muggle borns don't. So they will react differently because its just how they are raised. However I feel maybe because when they do enter the wizarding world Voldemort is only referred to as "you know who" most muggle borns may not even KNOW his name is Voldemort until Harry starts saying he is back. Obviously Hermione learns because she tried to learn as much as she could. If you enter an entirely new world at 11 and you hear everyone refer to someone as "you know who" why would you use the actual name when clearly nobody does? So its possible the muggle born students aren't doing it out of fear, but out of respect.

Hilary Rose

Please don’t worry about comparing too much to the movie. I know you said that someone mentioned it and now you’re self-conscious about it, but it’s your perspective. Even the title of this series is “Movie Watcher Reads.” It’s your own unique experience and I think that’s just fine. Anyway, I’m leaving too many comments on here and I’ll stop now, sorry! I just wanted to reassure you

Hawwah

Actually, we first met Pansy Parkinson in Philosopher's Stone. Her name was mentioned briefly during the sorting ceremony (chapter 7) and we met her in person during the first flying lesson (chapter 9). She was decribed as a "hard-faced Slytherin girl" and she called Neville a "fat little cry baby". It's true that all the Slytherins are described as physically unattractive in some way. The only two exceptions are young Tom Riddle and young Bellatrix Lestrange. However, even they are no longer attractive when we first meet them. I'm personally not a fan of this either. Especially considering how the Slytherin house is treated at Hogwarts (we get there when we get there).

S1lm4r1l

Even Regulus Black is described as looking less handsome than his brother Sirius. And the Blacks are supposed to be a very good looking lot.

rreowenn

I think your question about other ways to get to Hogwarts is answered in a later book, but I just want to say that even if they did live near Hogwarts they might choose to magically get to kings cross anyway for the experience of the train and to see their friends. Also, you said that you thought you had to run to the barrier because that would show you really believe in it, but I think that once you've ran it it a couple times you know its real so you may as well just lean if you want to be more quiet about it. Of course people might choose to run anyway for the fun of it.

Thunderbird

Isn’t a kid of two muggles just another muggle? 😄 I thought "squib" is specific for somebody with magical parents who can’t do magic himself. So basically like the difference between a halfblood and a pureblood or a muggleborn – the difference is the magical abilities of the parents. I’m enjoying these book reactions so much, looking forward to the next one. 😊

Diego Zenhäusern

I'll 100% second that!! For me the most interesting thing about this IS the fact that you've seen the movies first and can directly compare the books and movies! So in my opinion you actually can't do it enough😅! Especially since the comparison obviously doesn't seem to destroy your enjoyment of neither the movies nor the books😊

VeggieGamer

Thanks so much, Tami! This is only the beginning of my confusion over the term Squib. SO, if a Squib is someone that has magical parents, but can't do magic themselves, what is a non-magic user that is born by 2 Squibs called? I SWEAR, I find this subject more interesting than anyone else! XD

Rebecca May

Totally agree with both of you! I think it would be sad if it became a movie-bashing thing, but as there still seems to be a deep appreciation of both the films and the books, I really enjoy it. :)

Diego Zenhäusern

OMG, I never even considered the fact that basilisk should count😥!

Diego Zenhäusern

Totally agree with this and it is definitely a troubling thing about the books. And I'm actually a little ashamed that it took me personally until Rowling openly showing her transphobia (and therefore her being put down from the pedestal I put her on) that I really started to fully acknowledge this instead of kinda brushing it away🙁 So I'm actually really happy that Veggie picks up on this/ that it bothers him. It just shows how considerate and compassionate hes is :)

Rebecca May

As someone who has been reading these books since I was six years old, I'm with you, Veggie - I have always loved the celebration scene at the end of Chamber of Secrets, it makes me cry happy tears every damn time. I understand the objections but it's just such a beautiful ending... Besides, I always think the celebration may have started off being about Hagrid, but really for the rest of the school it's an expression of absolute joy and relief that such a terrifying year has come to a close and everyone is all right. I also 100% agree with your opinions on the Snape/Trevor situation. I will just say that although it is ABSOLUTELY not an excuse, I'm guessing that in disciplining his students, Severus is merely reflecting what he learned from his own experiences. I suspect he was very, very harshly disciplined as a young child, and once at Hogwarts, his motivation for learning came entirely from his incredible intelligence, determination and self-motivation, rather than from any external source (like teachers). He has the curse of knowledge - he is so motivated and so extremely talented in his chosen field that he fails to empathize with why other people might fail at such tasks. Lastly, as much as I love Harry, he isn't perfect, and as you pointed out, is still very much a child who has a very narrow and blinkered perspective, and can be unkind. I appreciate you being able to step outside of his perspective and evaluate characters on your own terms, as I've known people who've never been able to do that.

Kunzite Blossom

Yay another 4 hour video! I finished the other one just in time for this. The Snape discussion was something. I was shocked when I saw so many replies. Prior to the Hogwarts Express parents could take their kids to school via brooms or side-along apparition to Hogsmeade, but with so much magical activity it risked the Statue of Secrecy. So the Hogwarts Express is just about getting all the students together in one place which is more controlled. It would be very easy to get their kids to London even if they live in Scotland. The prediction to Parvati to watch out for the red haired man. Actually isn't far off. Padma and Parvati are twins, Trelawny just sees ONE of them having a bad time with a red haired man. Though Trelawny probably doesn't realize they are twins since in the book Padma is Ravenclaw, not Gryffindor. So you weren't wrong to think that. However do remember her predictions. Who knows what can happen? Snape 100% would not have let Trevor die, but the problem of the debate was whether Snape is a bully or not. Which is mixed. He does put being a professor first and won't risk getting fired, but that doesn't mean he isn't unfair to the point he can be viewed as a bully. He really does treat Gryffindors unfairly. There will be cases coming up so I won't spoil any. But there are instances of Snape saying/doing stuff that a professor just shouldn't do. Also, don't worry about being confused by Hawwah's comment. I was also as you read it. (No offence to Hawwah) I can't remember one time of Neville not caring about his classmates. I mean he tired to stand up to Harry, Ron and Hermione to NOT sneak out in their first year to avoid loosing more house points. He cares. Also Hermione told him how to fix his potion, so it's not like he tried it himself to fix it. There is a difference between being bad at a subject and then just plainly not caring or trying. For Daniel Lee's comment, I always took it as baby Harry HEARD the deaths of his parents but didn't see it. That's why he can hear the memory but not see it. I will not lie, Remus x Black would have been a great pairing. Even in the movie Snape mentions them bickering like an old married couple.

Kunzite Blossom

Interesting. See the thing is, you are considered a half blood if at least 1 parent or 1 grandparent has magic. So a child of 2 squibs would most likely have magical grandparents but there's 2 options here. 1) they would probably also be a squib, but a second generation squib. If they married a muggle or another second generation squib it could be safe to assume the child would then be a muggle since both parents AND grandparents were squibs. However, 2) it could also be the 2 squibs child COULD have magic and be a halfblood because while the parents are squibs the grandparents are not.

Diego Zenhäusern

I never thought about getting through the barrier between platforms 9 and 10 as being believe based, but I just looked it up in book 1 and it says: "‘Not to worry,’ she [Molly] said. ‘All you have to do is walk straight at the barrier between platforms nine and ten. Don’t stop and don’t be scared you’ll crash into it, that’s very important. Best do it at a bit of a run if you’re nervous. Go on, go now before Ron.’" So this makes it definitely seem like believing is actually an important part of it, Which actually makes sense (now that I'm thinking about it) and would explain why Muggles don't just slipp through the barrier by accident (because they would never believe that they could slip through a solid stone barrier). And yeah, Molly also tells us that it isn't necessary to run, but that it can help if you haven't done it before (for the psychological reasons Veggie explained in the video). I just never stop being amazed at all the things I learn about/ never considered before when I'm watching these videos/ reading the comments😮😅

Diego Zenhäusern

First off: Just wanted you to kow that I absolutely agree with you that love potions are highly unethical (as you can basically rape someone when you give them a strong enough potion) and the older I get the more I am appalled that they don't seem to be forbidden or even strongly regulated😮! I also agree with you that Harry calling Filch a "failed wizard" is troubling and absolutely untrue! But then again this is one of many instances that show that even our "good guys" and "heroes" are not absolutely perfect and flawless characters. So I actually like moments like that one as they make our characters more realistic.😊 And I really enjoy you bringing them up as it is definitely important to challenge our "heroes" actions and not see everything they do as completely unproblematic :) Edit: I also just wanted to note that you've sold me on your argument regarding Hagrid and Buckbeak.🤔🙂 Hagrid really should have started with a more harmless creature (though I think we both agree that the most part of the blame lies on Draco for purposefully disregarding Hagrid's warning). And so I now think this scene is actually an immediate indicator that Hagrid is great with animals and knows his stuff (and obviously has a huge heart and is compassionate) but that he ultimately isn't as fit to be a teacher as most of us (that really like him as a person) would like him to be (at the very least at this point in time)😕🤔

Hawwah

@Diego 1. Please don't bring politics into this. We are here to discuss Harry Potter. There are plenty discussion forums about politics on the internet. This isn't one of them. 2. Since you already brought it up, I 100% agree with JKR's stance on the gender issue. However, I'm not interested in debating it here with you because this is not the place for it.

S1lm4r1l

I always loved Remus's "Severus don't be a fool" and Sirius replying "He can't help it, its habit by now."

Matthew T

Fun fact - Rowena Ravenclaw was Scottish (blue colour a give away)! Just as Godric Gryffindor is English (red) Helga Hufflepuff was welsh (yellow like the leek) and Salazar Slytherin was Irish (green ofcourse)! I can’t remember which sorting hat speech reveals this but I just remember ‘fair Ravenclaw from Glen’ is mentioned and similar ones for the other 3 to show the nationalities along with the colours

Rebecca May

That's so cool, I never picked up on that before! :)

Loveinthehat

I think maybe they’d also be called a quib as well I’m guessing?? Or maybe they just end up being a muggle… not sure, I think they would more likely also be called a squib since they do know about the wizarding world

Loveinthehat

Wolfstar is always going strong lol, it’s definitely way more popular than what happens in canon. It’s made even better that the actors who played Remus and Sirius thought they were a couple and were playing it that way.

Loveinthehat

Speaking of the wolfstar (Remus and Sirius ship) it’s actually huge! The marauders have their own fanbase and their fanfiction are inane, in fact this ship this year and last year was the 4th most popular ship in ao3, way over any other ship in Harry Potter. There’s also a fanfic that people love about the marauders and that ship called ‘all the young dudes’ which is like 500k words or something crazy like that. I personally haven’t read it because I think Remus is very mischaracterised but it’s extremely popular and a lot of people seem to see it as canon. It’s funny how stuff like this can have a big impact like that. They probably won’t do it, but I think that’s why a lot of people tend to want a marauders era tv show, although people are so passionate about characters that they won’t be pleased with it regardless. I personally hope of this ever does happen, that they portray both the marauders and Snape realistically. They show characters good and bad traits for all of them. Maybe others would find it boring, but for me I would be interested in this series mainly to see how it be like being a werewolf in hogwarts like that.

Hawwah

Hi Veggie, I finally got to the part when you read my comment. I'm going to try to address your points the best I can. * This turned out really long so I decided to do a TL;DR. My main points are these: - It's not true that Neville is bad at potions because Snape picks on him. It's the other way around - Snape started to pay extra attention to Neville only AFTER Neville proved he was extremely bad at potions (PS, chapter 8) - Snape's goal was never to hurt Trevor or Neville. His goal was to make Neville brew the potion properly. And he succeeded in that. - Snape doesn't put unreasonably high expectations on Neville. The rest of the class brewed the potion just fine, so Snape is not being unfair to Neville when he expects the same from him. - Hermione didn't brew the potion with Neville, she just whispered Snape's instructions to him - the exactly same instructions Neville used before. Neville didn't properly follow them the first time, but he followed them the second time when he was motivated to brew the potion correctly. Thus proving he was capable doing it properly and just not trying hard enough before. - I don't believe Neville is acting out of malice but I absolutely believe he is reckless. * Let us go back to the very first potions lesson (PS, chapter 8). Here's a short summary - direct quotes from the book are in quotation marks. Professor Snape tells the class to brew "a simple potion to cure boils". He walks around , watches students' work, etc. He is at Malfoy's cauldron when suddenly "clouds of acid green smoke and a loud hissing filled the dungeon. Neville had somehow managed to melt Seamus's cauldon into a twisted blob and their potion was seeping across the stone floor, burning holes in people's shoes." Neville himself "moaned in pain" because he was drenched in the botched potion. Now a paragraph directly from the book: "Idiot boy!" snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away with one have of his wand. "I suppose you added the porcupine quills before taking the cauldron off the fire?" Neville whimpered as boils started to pop up all over his nose. "Take him up to the hospital wing," Snape spat at Seamus. What did we learn from this scene? 1. Professor Snape chose a simple potion for the first lesson. 2. The rest of the class managed to NOT melt their cauldrons. It was not unreasonable of Snape to expect the same from Neville. 3. Snape didn't pay any special attention to Neville until Neville botched his potion. So it's not true that Neville is bad at potions because Snape picks on him. It's the other way around - Snape started to pay extra attention to Neville only AFTER Neville proved he was extremely bad at potions. 4. Neville botched his potion because he didn't follow Snape's instructions. 5. Neville hurt himself and endangered his classmates with his sloppy work. 6. Snape immediately vanishing the botched potion shows us that he cares about the safety of his students. 7. Snape immediately sending Neville to the hospital wing proves that he is not a sadist. A sadist would enjoy the sight of a student whimpering in pain. Snape wasn't enjoying himself - he was angry. Like any responsible adult would when a kid does something stupid and reckless. There are many mentions throughout the series of Neville being bad at potions, melting his cauldrons, blowing up his cauldron etc. I can go through the books and make a list if you really want me to. In the movies it's Seamus, but in the books it's actually Neville who constantly blows stuff up. And while it may be funny for the reader, it's a nightmare for the teacher who is responsible for the classroom safety. Potions are basically chemistry. Do you really think Neville's antics would be tolerated in a muggle school? Chemicals burning holes in children's shoes? Imagine the lawsuits. Now to the toad incident. I have to insist that Snape didn't TRY or WANT to poison Trevor. I agree with you that he didn't aim to fatally poison Trevor. You correctly pointed out that poisoning doesn't necessarily mean death (many fans seem to forget that). It's also very likely that Snape had an antidote at the ready. We saw it in the previous book and also in this chapter - Snape had an antidote with him and immediately changed tadpole Trevor back. It's another example how seriously he takes safety in his classroom (having the antidote at the ready for the case somebody messes up). That being said, I insist that Snape didn't TRY or WANT even non-fatally poison Trevor. He didn't want Neville to brew another botched potion. He wanted to make Neville brew the potion correctly. If Snape wanted to poison Trevor for some reason, why not feed him the first botched potion? Why make Neville brew another one? Also, as I wrote in my original comment, Snape has a collection of poisons in his office. It would have been really easy for him to poison Trevor if he had wanted to. He could have done that years ago. Or he could have sabotaged Neville's second potion to make sure it would be poisonous. Also, if he'd wanted to be really petty, he could have pulled a Gryphook and told Neville "I never said I'll change him back" and leave Trevor as a tadpole. He did none of these things, which proves his goal was never to hurt Trevor or Neville. His goal was to give Neville motivation to brew the potion properly. And he succeeded in that. People may disagree with his approach. People may think that using positive motivation would have been better than negative one. And I may even agree with them! However, I wish they would stop saying that Snape tried/wanted to poison and/or kill Trevor because that's OBJECTIVELY not true. (I know you didn't say that, Veggie, I'm now talking about the fandom in general.) I disagree with the idea that Snape puts unreasonably high expectations on Neville. Snape wants Neville to pay attention in class, follow instructions and not to endanger anyone. I think these are all perfectly reasonable requests. And don't forget that the rest of the class brewed the potion just fine, so I really don't think Snape is being unfair to Neville when he expects the same from him. It's not like Snape assigned Neville with some extremely advanced potion that Neville legitimately couldn't make. Now to Hermione. Hermione didn't brew the potion for Neville. She whispered the instructions to him. Now, what instructions were they? Some better, adjusted, easier to follow ones? No - you already know what Hermione thinks about those (HBP movie). Hermione whispered Snape's instructions to Neville - the exactly same instructions Neville used before. Neville didn't properly follow them the first time, but he followed them the second time when he was motivated to brew the potion correctly. So I insist on what wrote - Neville proved that he is capable of doing things properly and he just doesn't try hard enough most of the time. Why did Snape take points from Gryffindor? Because he had told Hermione not to show off and let Neville brew the potion alone. Now to Neville being unconcerned about harming someone. Perhaps "unconcerned" is not the correct word (I'm not a native English speaker). If I used the word incorrectly, I am really sorry. Let me explain what I meant. Do I believe Neville is endangering his classmates on purpose, out of malice? No. Do I believe Neville is being extremely reckless? Yes, absolutely. I found this definition of recklessness: "lack of regard for the danger or consequences of one's actions". Assuming it's the correct definition, it describes Neville's behavior in potions perfectly. That's what I meant with "unconcerned". Again, if I used the word incorrectly, I sincerely apologize. I don't think it makes Neville a bad person - children and teenagers tend to be reckless, it's natural - but I also don't think it makes Snape a bad person to call him out for it. I'm sorry but that's just a teacher doing his job. To your question if I admit I might be biased towards Snape. I feel this is a very tricky question. Whether I say yes or no, it can be interpreted in a bad way. I don't think you would do that, but some people on this forum undoubtedly would. Let me just say that I absolutely don't think Snape is perfect, beyond criticism or that he couldn't have done anything better. Lastly, I'm sorry I hinted at something from the future chapters. I will be extra careful about it next time.

Hawwah

Draco didn't purposefully ignore Hagrid's warning. When Hagrid was warning the class, Draco wasn't paying attention (he was whispering something with Crabbe and Goyle). I agree that Draco brought it on himself, though. That being said, as a teacher, Hagrid has responsibility for the safety of his students - even the bratty and misbehaving ones. I find it interesting how differently the fandom views this incident and the incident in the first potions lesson (in PS): Draco doesn't follow Hagrid's instructions, gets hurt as a result. Fandom: It's Draco's own fault. Hagrid is innocent! Neville doesn't follow Snape's instructions, gets hurt and endangers others as a result. Fandom: It's Snape's fault. Snape is so evil! Interesting double standard.

Hawwah

Dumbledore would never fire Snape. The whole double spy thing, remember? When Ron hurt Seamus with his broken wand (CoS), he apologized to him profusely. Did Neville ever apologize for endangering his classmates in potions? I honestly don't remember such a scene, but maybe you'll prove me wrong.

Hawwah

That's interesting. Is it a fan theory or is it confirmed somewhere?

The Ginger Historian

I can see a lot of these points and agree with just about all of them. I feel like there are so many people commenting things like "SNAPE IS COMPLETELY AWFUL IN THE BOOKS JUST WAIT" that that is really what's starting to make Veggie think that way. As you say, Snape is a morally gray character. He has truly soaring moments and truly awful moments. Which is entirely the point and also what makes him fascinating.

The Ginger Historian

Also using this moment as bait for Veggie's animal love seems like kind of a cold, calculated... I'd say almost Snape-like move on their part, interestingly enough. Anyway, all this to say that I find far more people intensely and relentlessly shitting all over Snape and negating his amazing moments than people who try and justify his awful moments. So which section of the fandom is truly more toxic?

The Ginger Historian

@hawwah The validity of human beings and their access to human rights is not a political issue. Have some compassion.

The Ginger Historian

@diego Thank you for your statement. And don't let sanctimonious people like this get you down.

The Ginger Historian

Can we get a mod for the people who are not so thinly veiling their hatred for trans people? (They are in this comment section and can be easily found). This is not a "political" issue - it's an issue of basic human decency.

Ziro the Hutt

Hiya Veggie, dunno if you know, but the actor who played Sir Cadogan in Azkaban, was Paul Whitehouse, whom I'm sure you are aware of (and btw I loved Bottom too back in the day). As for the potential poisoning of Neville's toad. Snape would have a reviving draught at hand, as though he is a bit sadistic in his teaching methods, especially for those he has no time for (or hate's as in Harry), he is one of the most talented potion masters ever seen in the books, so would ensure no lasting harm would come to a familiar. Even if he didn't have one at hand, he'd be able to make up a restorative in no time. Btw do you have the bladder of a camel? All that juice you consume in these vids is impressive! :D

Lisette C.

I LOVE your thoughts Veggie - whether on differences between the movie and book or anything else. The bookclub is your favorite part of your videos, because you get to hear people's thoughts and we feel the same way about your waffling! That is why we are here ;) Please just keep doing, what you are doing and comment when you feel there is something to say <3

itsanursething

You've touched on a couple of things that are definitely explored/explained further in later books: love potions and the Defense Against the Dark Arts position "curse". It's going to be a while before you have some of the answers, so be patient! But I can't wait for you to get there! Your question: can 2 muggles have a squib child. The simple answer is no. The definition of a squib is a child born to *magical* parents who has no magical ability of their own. Muggles don't have magic, so if they had a child with no magic, then they just had another muggle. You're not an idiot. It's an interesting question! Please don't feel bad for comparing the book to the movies! We ALL did it. Me especially. I would re-read the book before going to see the movie for the first time and compare everything that was different. It's hard not to! And honestly, a lot of the points you've made in your comparisons are completely valid. I'm gonna take a minute to defend my man Neville here. There is a reason he's a so-called "walking disaster". Up until he arrived at Hogwarts, pretty much everyone thought he was a squib (which sadly, in the wiazarding world is seen as being some awful affliction). Once he got to Hogwarts, due to all of that negative feedback, he had very little confidence, if any at all, which didn't improve when he struggled in his classes. I think Neville's problem is he has no self-confidence and everyone STILL tells him that he's a waste of space and a mess. That, plus feeling intimidated by almost every professor, it's no wonder he's having a hard time. Also, fun fact, he started Hogwarts with his dad's wand. Remember what we learned about wands in movies 7 and 8? *hint hint* Maybe because I love Hagrid so much, I blame Draco for the Buckbeak incident, but I can see your point. I get that he wanted to start off with something exciting, but maybe he could have introduced hippogriffs in a non-interactive way? I don't know. Draco blatantly ignored Hagrid's instruction, putting himself and potentially his classmates in danger. What a jerk! Also, sorry this is so long! <3

itsanursething

I'm with you. I was confused too. In this particular potions class, the only thing wrong with Neville's potion was that it was the wrong color. It wasn't smoking or bubbling dangerously or giving off fumes. And I think if Neville was truly unconcerned with his classmates' safety, he wouldn't be trying. He IS trying, but he gets flustered easily, especially when scared. Extreme example, but imagine having a gun to your head and told to complete a difficult task perfectly that you're already not very good at. How well would you be able to do it?

itsanursething

I haven't read that one, but maybe it could be canon. It was never specifically addressed if Remus was completely heterosexual or if he was also into guys. He and Sirius may have had a relationship when they were younger. Why else would Sirius's animagus be a dog? Close to the wolf... ;)

itsanursething

Reading your comment brought an interesting thought to my mind: what if Neville is dyslexic? Maybe he was misreading them or reading them in the wrong order. It would TOTALLY explain why following written instructions is so difficult for him, but when Hermione gave them to him verbally, he had no problems. Huh...

VeggieGamer

Wait, WHAT???! It was Paul Whitehouse?!? I have only one work to describe that - BRILLIAAAANT! (Seriously though, that is awesome!

Hawwah

Sorry, wrong thread.

Hawwah

"Draco blatantly ignored Hagrid's instruction, putting himself and potentially his classmates in danger. What a jerk!" I agree 100%. However, Neville does the EXACT SAME THING in potions but you claim that it's not his fault and Snape is to blame. Interesting double standard.

Loveinthehat

I wasn’t meaning that part about being canon, it’s not canon because Remus has a completely different upbringing and personality and for me it’s very off putting. He’s very angry and hostile and mean to people. Yeah I get that maybe he could be like that, but I personally don’t like it because I don’t see him that way. Especially since James and Sirius were drawn to his kindness and humour, I think Remus would more so be a pushover because he’s scared of showing anger because he doesn’t want to fall into the werewolf reputation. Maybe if I read it properly I could get into it but I’m just someone who doesn’t like when characters are very different.

Hawwah

@Tommy Ross Thank you for your encouraging words. As I said before, I don't mind if people dislike Snape. I just wish they would be fair to him. However, I never said Snape was a morally gray character. I believe Snape is a very good person who has his flaws, like everyone. I think Remus Lupin is a good example of a morally gray character. @itsadancething When I was writing my comment, this idea crossed my mind, too. However, I don't think we have enough proof for that. If it was JKR's intention for Neville to be dyslexic, I think she would have made it clearer. I don't think there are any other moments in the books that hint at Neville's possible dyslexia. No, I think the truth is much simpler. Neville followed Hermione's instructions because he really wanted to brew the potion correctly this time.

Hawwah

@itsadancething Irrelevant question. Neville doesn't have a gun to his head. The rest of the class brewed the potion just fine. It wasn't unreasonable of Snape to expect the same from Neville. "He IS trying" Is he, though? When he was actually trying, he brewed the potion correctly. That implies he wasn't really trying before.

Caroline

I think the dementors are such fascinating creatures! JK created them to embody depression. Did somebody mention this before? Some of which she herself had to suffer through. When you see it from this perspective, their description seems even more profound. And the idea that only a happy memory can fight it is a beautiful association. In an interview, JK once said that of course, everyone has to find their own individual way to deal with depression, but that hers was sometimes just a piece of chocolate :) And I think the same goes for the Boggart...only laughing can fight the greatest fear etc... I sometimes like to think about such spells and their effects and references on a meta-level. Thanks for doing this book club! It's a lot of fun! Lovely wishes Ramona

Thunderbird

Honestly, I'm not sure about that. I think probably a squib like @Kunzite Blossom said. The only thing I know is that if the kid of two squibs has magical abilities it has the blood status of his grandparents so either a halfblood or a pureblood. I must admit I never thought about that in this much detail 😄

Hawwah

@Tommy Ross Men having access to female-only spaces has nothing to do with human rights or compassion. Stop gaslighting and guilt-tripping women. We have a right to our own spaces, safety and privacy, whether men like it or not. As I said, this is a place to discuss Harry Potter. Not a place for political discussion and/or political activism. Please, stop it.

Michelle Linardis

“Appearance dictates if you are a good or bad person.” I agree with your thoughts here 100%! Anyone ‘bad’ in general are given ugly physical traits quite frequently in the books in Harry’s eyes as if to identify the ‘villains’ for the sake of a story. There is rather a disheartening bias between Slytherin and Gryffindor, where Slytherin do get these horrible traits (and this is coming from someone who considers themselves a Gryffindor) when In hindsight, there ARE good Slytherins dedicated to fighting against the darker prejudice the House historically adopts. And yet the narrative changes to those who are ‘good’. I’m also really pleased that you’ve talked about the other teachers and that their own methods (and morals) are also rather questionable. So putting aside a certain teacher who appears to be the only one harshly criticized, the others are equally as guilty of this. Hagrid’s methods are highly questionable, as with Trelawney and McGonagall as well. You are absolutely correct about the Snape vs McGonagall comparison – People come at Snape with torches and pitchforks and don’t bat an eye over what McGonagall makes the class do. This fandom is sadly horrid for double standards. And THANK YOU Veggie for pointing out that Snape line with Trevor – literally nowhere in the text did it say that Snape WANTED to murder/poison the toad, and I’m tired of seeing others assume it is. All he did was reiterate what would happen if the potion was brewed wrong. That is it. In fact, Trevor – with the possibility of being accidentally poisoned – is actually in the best place of all. Snape has the antidotes, given the high risk of student brews going wrong. So the bottom line here, is that Trevor was in no real danger. Which, I might also add, should not have even been in the classroom in the first place. We hear of no other student pets there, so why was Neville’s toad only there? A recipe for disaster. Snape is all about scare tactics, which is incredibly harsh. I’m not saying it’s the right way to go, but for Snape, it works. How else will he ask for complete attention and compliance? He was one of the youngest ever Hogwarts Professors, scoring the job at 21. How else did you think he would rally discipline? He HAD to be strict and harsh, considering he began teaching students who were at school the same period he was. Just something to think about =)

Michelle Linardis

And to answer the questions you had for me - (Thank you so much!!) 1 ) I personally don't mind Snape deducting points, as they are usually warranted, especially when students fail to follow instructions, sabotage each other's work, and generally being menaces within the classroom. Of which most of them end up being Gryffindors for their recklessness. And most of the time the Slytherins are horsing around behind Snape's back. I mean, he'll never actually award points, because that is not the lesson he wants to teach, 'awarding' people for doing what they are meant to. I mean, McGonagall deducts a crazy amount of points at a time. Snape only deducts very little. And this leads to the second question you had about Draco - 2) I believe Severus has his hands tied where the Slytherins are concerned. And I don't mean the fact that we know he is a spy (essentially) and needs to adopt a certain persona in the public eye, but also keeping in mind the social power of the Malfoy family and the influence they have in the magical community. Lucius is actually a Hogwarts Governor - there are 12 Governors who can dictate happenings in the school, which we know of from the second book when Lucius had Hagrid sacked/sent to Azkaban. So knowing the power of Lucius - and by default, Draco - Severus needed to be acting in Draco's favor and not oppose him to avoid the risk of being sacked himself, and losing his place as a spy within the school. As much as we know Severus would likely tell Draco to grow a spine, he merely couldn't. Draco essentially has Severus wrapped around his finger.

Hawwah

Are you seriously calling for silencing women you disagree with? Please stop. No one expressed any hatred for anyone. I politely asked Diego not to bring politics into this forum because this is a place to discuss Harry Potter, nothing more, nothing less. If you want to discuss other issues, there are plenty of places on the internet where you can do that.

itsanursething

I know I’ve asked this before, but what was so wrong with Neville’s potion? All we were told is that it was the wrong color. No smoke, no fumes, no overflowing bubbles. How is the wrong color potion putting the whole class in danger? I don’t think it’s a double standard. I know you disagree, but I see Neville trying really hard in all his classes. He does care, he just struggles; that shouldn’t automatically make him a bad or careless student. Draco doesn’t care. He ignored important safety instructions because HE’S careless.

itsanursething

It’s not an irrelevant question. It wasn’t even a question. I was trying to say that fear changes your ability to perform. Neville is terrified of Snape. I was just trying to use an example of something most people would find to be a terrifying situation.

Katik

There's a lot of people who defend Snape talking about him being authoritarian and strict, there's also a lot of comparison with McGonagall. Don't get me wrong, I also enjoy Snape as a character, but here is the bottom line (imho): McGonagall is strict to the point of sometimes being harsh, and maybe not the best at encouraging weaker students, but that is a failing in the teaching method. She is always fair, is probably the only professor who can be strict with the students in her own house, only occasionally being softer when it comes to Quidditch. Even though she can be harsh, she has compassion and is never out to hurt people. She teaches the best way she can, and is mostly successful, her strict approach may not be working on students like Neville, but overall everybody respects her. Snape on the other hand is not strict or authoritarian, he is mean and a bully. There's a huge difference between the two. If being strict and authoritarian was true, he would be strict with his own students as well. He would not let Draco get away with his behaviour. Also not sure if it has been explicitly mentioned yet in the books up to this point but we all know that Crabbe and Goyle are also extremely poor students. I doubt they are doing any better at Potions than Neville. Yet Snape never picks on them the way he picks on Neville. Btw yes, in the movies he is only strict and authoritarian - and I think this is the main reason people defend him, I have made the same mistake of seeing Alan Rickman's Snape in my head when reading the books - in the movies he is very much comparable to McGonagall. And I think this creates a blind spot. But in the books that's quite a different story. I don't care if he meant for Trevor to die or not, what he meant to do was hurt Neville. Not to help him with his study, but to humiliate him. Simply because he is a small man himself and makes himself feel better by putting others down. If the point that he was helping Neville trying to scare him was true, the consequent remark to Lupin in the staff room does not fit into that. That was clearly humiliation, cannot be explained any other way. Again yes, it is always worth pointing out (at it has been by many people here countless of times) that he always has the student's physical safety in mind, but psychological abuse is often so much worse! He should know, he was bullied as a child himself! That makes him relatable, but it does not excuse his behaviour. He has no compassion or empathy for other people. He is the ugly example of an arrogant person with low self esteem. The abuse he suffered from his family and in school has left him scarred, but instead of using this experience to empathise with weaker people, he takes it out on them and abuses his power. If he was only mean to Harry because of the James connection, again not excusable, but a little more understandable (revenge, etc). The fact that he picks on other weak people just because he can, just makes him a very weak in my eyes. By the way, emotional abuse aside, he is also not a very good teacher. He might be a genius at potions, but his teaching method is basically put the "recipe" on the blackboard for the students to follow during the class and see what happens. He is never described as explaining or clarifying anything, or going over the more difficult bits in the process in more detail. He knows he's good and expects everyone to be able to just follow along, and if not, he either mocks them or ignores them. And last of course: the ultimate sacrifice in the end! In my opinion it might redeem him in terms of the fight of Good vs Evil as represented by Dumbledore and Harry vs Voldemort, but it does not make him a good person. Not the character as represented in the books. Feel free to swoon over the movie Snape (god knows I have) but book Snape's behaviour towards students is simply inexcusable. Revealing Snape's backstory is supposed to make us empathise with him (they way Harry should have, and failed to, up until the very end), but not to defend his behaviour.

Hawwah

The way I see it, and others are free to disagree, a squib is just a subcategory of a muggle. Just like purebloods, halfbloods and muggleborns are subcategories of wizards. A squib is a person with no magic abilities (=a muggle) who has two magical parents. By definition, two muggles can't give birth to a squib child. Just like two wizards by definition can't give birth to a muggleborn child. What would a child of two squibs be called? A muggle. It would not be a squib because a squib has two magical parents.

Hawwah

Neville had no reason to be terrified of Snape in the very first potions lesson (PS, chapter 8) and he still botched his potion, hurt himself and endangered his classmates. When Snape told Neville he was going to feed his potion to Trevor, Neville had more reasons to be terrified, not less, but he still brewed the potion correctly. Your argument doesn't add up.

Kunzite Blossom

I've wanted to mention this but spoilers for Veggie (will bring it up when the time comes if there's another Snape debate). The one scene when Draco hex's Hermione so her teeth grows and Snape is just like "I see no difference" THAT ALONE shows he is NOT nice. That is not how a teacher or Professor should act. He just turns a blind eye to everything Draco and other Slytherins do. Though as another comment pointed out, Snape can't risk himself being fired and if he did anything to Draco obviously Lucius would have something to say. Which is fair on Snapes part, but that doesn't excuse his literal bad behavior in this scene. Like fair Draco was the actual bully in this scene, but being a bystander can often be just as bad. Snape may not have been the "direct" bully but he 100% did not do the right thing. Also, I never noticed that his teaching method is usually just putting the recipe on the board. Not actually showing how to do it. As someone with a reading disability I probably would accidently skip stuff (not meaning too). I'd be right with Neville in doing horribly if that's the case.

Kunzite Blossom

In case you haven't noticed. Neville is scared of most professors. He has no confidence until Harry starts teaching him in Order. His own insecurities is what holds him back in class and Snape scaring him constantly MAKES IT WORSE. Neville tries. Yes he sometimes misreads the instructions but hell. I do that all the time when I have it written right in front of me, clear as day. I'd probably be just as scared by Snape if I was always being berated by him. Snape doesn't actually teach them crap. He just puts it on the board and does nothing to actually help. He uses fear to try and make them better but that tactic doesn't work on everyone. It can have a negative affect on people and make them worse. Most teachers would be glad another student offers to help a troubling student but Snape just wants Neville to fail. However yes Hermione mutters instructions, but that doesn't mean she's necessarily reading what's on the board. She's helping him FIX the potion, not redoing it. Now. I don't exactly want a long chain of arguments so lets just agree to disagree. Ok?

Hawwah

What was wrong with Neville's potion? At the best, it was worthless, at the worst, it was harmful, maybe even poisonous. I'm not saying this particular potion put the classroom at risk, I am talking about Neville's sloppiness in general. After two years of it Snape is sick and tired of Neville's nonsense and I really don't blame him. So he decides to show Neville that his sloppiness has consequences. And while Veggie didn't agree with the majority of my comment, he agreed with this particular point. Draco didn't hear Hagrid's safety instructions because he wasn't paying attention (he was whispering with Crabbe and Goyle). He didn't deliberately ignore them. It doesn't change the fact that it was his own fault that he got hurt, though. Similarly, Neville doesn't follow Snape's instructions in potions classes. I don't think he's doing it on purpose - I think he's just sloppy, absent-minded and reckless. That doesn't change the fact that he puts himself and others in danger. So we have two students who don't follow teacher's instructions and get themselves hurt as a result. But you're saying that in one case, it's the student's fault, while in the other case, it's the teachers's fault. I'm sorry, but that's a double standard.

Katik

Yep I was thinking of that one as well when writing it, but obviously could not mention yet

Hawwah

"Neville is scared of most professors." Okay, fair point, but I don't see people accusing McGonagall, Flitwick, Binns etc. of being bullies, child abusers, sadists etc. That's the double standard I'm talking about. "He has no confidence" That sucks, but it's no ecxuse to endanger others. Hermione has her own insecurities, Ron has his, most if not all the students probably have them. None of them is a walking potions disaster like Neville. "Snape just wants Neville to fail" That's objectively false. I elaborate on that in my comment in the main thread. Had Snape wanted Neville to fail, he could have made sure of that easily. Snape teaches the same way Slughorn does. Snape was Slughorn's student, so it's probably the only teaching approach he's aware of and it worked for him, so he doesn't see a reason to change it.

Anders Ekren

"I don't think it will be quite as long!" Veggie hurrying to smash the quit record button mere minutes before it reaches over 4 hours! xD

itsanursething

100%! It's pretty obvious Neville has some kind of learning disability. A good teacher would see a struggling student and try to figure out how to help them, not immediately write them off and criticize everything they do.

itsanursething

Draco I would consider reckless. He doesn't care about paying attention in class because he doesn't respect or like Hagrid. He also messes around in potions because he knows he can get away with it. Neville isn't reckless, he's struggling and, yes, that does mean he makes mistakes, but he pays attention. My issue with Snape in this scene is that after 3 years of watching Neville struggle in his class, he has done nothing to try to help him. A good teacher would try to find a way to help a student not understanding or making mistakes, not call them an idiot and write them off immediately. It's very likely Neville has some kind of learning disability. He VERY clearly has anxiety which can affect how he performs in anxiety inducing situations (Snape's class and McGonagall's class). Having a learning disability or an anxiety disorder doesn't automatically make him sloppy and a bad student. For all we know, Neville was doing his best, but as has been mentioned, this story is from Harry's perspective. He doesn't typically pay attention to Neville the same way he does Draco, so he probably didn't see him trying hard or having trouble until something goes wrong. I also think the reason Snape took points away from Hermione wasn't just because she helped Neville when he said not to, but also because he was bitter that she was able to get through to him when he (Snape) couldn't. Like you said, same instructions, but coming from a friendlier person, Neville was able to retain and understand them.

itsanursething

Ah! Yeah, that makes sense. I hate it when fanfictions make someone WAY out of character. But now I like the idea of a bisexual Lupin and I want that to be real haha!

Diego Zenhäusern

Ok, I'll concede to you that Draco actually didn't do it on purpose. As to your argument: It's completely baseless. No one in the fandom argues that Snape didn't give Neville proper instructions and therefore it's Snape's fault for Neville fucking up that first potion. Snapes problem isn't that he doesn't give proper instructions but that he's abusive. Which btw. can be seen by his reaction where he immediately shouted at Neville and called him an idiot after the incident (I didn't see Hagrid do either of those things in this chapter): "‘Idiot boy!’ snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away with one wave of his wand. ‘I suppose you added the porcupine quills before taking the cauldron off the fire?’ Neville whimpered as boils started to pop up all over his nose. ‘Take him up to the hospital wing,’ Snape spat at Seamus." But since you love to call out double standards. Here's a nice one for you: "Then he rounded on Harry and Ron, who had been working next to Neville. ‘You – Potter – why didn’t you tell him not to add the quills? Thought he’d make you look good if he got it wrong, did you? That’s another point you’ve lost for Gryffindor.’" Intresting that here Snape seems to expect his students to help each other (in this case Neville) but in POA he specifically forbids Hermione from helping Neville and deducts points for her doing so...

Frederique Gillespie

Ah, the Snape controversy. I don't think fandom will ever solve that one. It may seem obvious to an adult that Snape was never going to truly harm Trevor, but even Hermione was worried enough to help Neville, so it wasn't just Harry's anti-Snape bias operating in our perception of that scene. I agree with you, Veg, when you say that the man is a horrible teacher. For one thing, he seems to loathe most children, even if he's mature enough to protect them when the need arises. Without anticipating events that have yet to be discussed in books, I will limit myself to this: I believe Snape to be a complex character who's not evil, but also not a poor misunderstood soul. Not a psychopath, but definitely cruel.

Rebecca May

@Katik - I just want to preface my comment by saying I appreciate your comment very much, it is very well-reasoned and I agree with most (though not all) of your points. :) Much as I love and empathize with Snape, what I'm about to say is not an attempt to excuse or justify his behavior towards his students. That being said, respectfully, I disagree with this part of your comment: "He should know, he was bullied as a child himself! [...] The abuse he suffered from his family and in school has left him scarred, but instead of using this experience to empathise with weaker people, he takes it out on them and abuses his power. [...] The fact that he picks on other weak people just because he can, just makes him a very weak in my eyes." I don't deny that this is an adequate description of his conduct, but I do disagree with blaming him for not learning empathy from his own experience. While empathy is partly an innate quality, it's mostly learned by example from a young age, from adults and other role models. Severus was very rarely (if ever) shown empathy, despite his horrifying treatment both at home and at school. No one ever showed him that they cared to understand what he was going through, so it doesn't surprise me he never learned that consideration for others - in fact, I'm surprised he didn't turn out a hell of a lot worse. It's possible that he doesn't even believe his behavior is that bad when he compares it with what he himself went through. Severus is not weak - in my opinion. He's deeply, deeply wounded, and to blame him for not being given the opportunity to heal and learn from his trauma just feels wrong to me. Does this make his actions towards his students right, or excusable? No, not in any way. I'm not saying that and never will. I just don't want to blame him for not being able to learn from his trauma. I hope that makes sense and again, just my opinion. :)

Hawwah

I think Neville is a horrible student. Why doesn't he follow Snape's instructions in the first place? Draco did it once and people are rightfully calling him out for it. Neville does it all the time and people are finding excuses for him.

Katik

@Rebecca - makes sense and I do agree with you! I strongly believe that all people we label as "bad" have a very good reason for it. They were made like that by their environment (unless the rare cases who were already born a psychopath, in which case it's a sickness and they cannot be blamed for that either) and in either case they as a person deserve our compassion. Not their behaviour though. I strongly believe Snape deserves all our empathy, this is another point I feel very strongly about (but was going to leave commenting on it to another future point in the story) was that Harry and his friends should have shown him empathy and kindness against his unfairness and that might have broken the cycle of abuse. (Especially: 1. after they realise at the end of Philosopher's Stone they were wrong about him all this time; and 2. when Harry makes the trip into the Pensieve and witnesses the bullying. Yes he was distraught by what he saw but instead of this feeling coming from empathy for Snape, it was rather a disillusionment about his father and Sirius and Lupin that upset him). If Harry was the perfect good character from "high fantasy" he would have been kind to Snape, apologised and even in the face of Snape's unfairness he might have slowly turned things around. But that would be very unrealistic for a teenage boy to have such high emotional intelligence and impeccable character and would make for a completely different story! Perfect characters are boring and unrelatable after all. Rather what I was trying to get to in my post is even if we empathise with a person and relate to their reason for the behaviour, we still should not excuse and defend it (as some have been doing). I also get why you might disagree with me calling him weak, this might be a strong term to use, and I would agree with you except for this particular situation: If he was mean and without compassion to anyone else: like his equals (Lupin, Sirius), or even to Harry for whom he might have strong reason to dislike, while inexcusable, it is understandable and I would not have called him that. The fact he is mean to a much weaker person, when he is in a position of power (as a teacher, but also in general as an adult vs a child), when it doesn't take any effort or risk to stand up to someone or face someone, in this situation I believe it is weak to punch down. Even with the understanding where this behaviour is coming from. TLDR :) I agree Snape's behaviour is coming from a place of hurt but it still should not be defended

Weronika

There is a great video talking about Wolfstar being possibly real based on analysis of the books and movies. https://youtu.be/yYlZF5A2L4Q idk if it's safe for Velshy to watch since they quote some parts of books he didn't read yet but definitely worth a watch

Frederique Gillespie

The books don't give us a 24/7 vision of those classes, so I'm not comfortable assuming the reason Neville is a poor student is because he never follows instructions. I know he's not goot a potions, but while that may not be Snape's fault, my problem is with Snape's teaching methods. Neville being a bad student is not an excuse for mind games and cruelty.

Rebecca May

@Katik - Thank you for such a considerate response. :) Being someone who cares for Snape can be a very fraught place to be, so I appreciate your kindness and openness to genuine discussion. I'm always very clear that despite my affection and empathy for Severus, this does not mean that I excuse or defend his behavior... In fact, I think painting him as blameless detracts from the complexity of his character. The attitude of people often refusing to concede an inch on both sides of this debate drives me crazy, so I do sympathize with the motives behind your original comment. That being said, I do believe it is possible to love a person/character while often being angry or disappointed at the choices they make and wishing they could do better. The "nature vs. nurture" debate is a complex one and not one I much want to get into... Suffice it to say that in my eyes, I believe there was so much good in Snape, however deeply buried. For me, his strength lies in the fact that *any* virtue remained in him at all, after everything he suffered to beat the goodness out of him. With next to no positive role models, being constantly ignored, abused or manipulated and with no real opportunity to heal, the fact that Severus didn't become an utter psychopath is astounding. I admire the progress he made and grieve for the chances he missed to better himself. (And yes, I understand why people would disagree with me on this. I respect their right to have that opinion, this is just mine.) I have very lightly touched on it in some previous comments, but the fact that Harry refuses to extend any kindness towards Snape until it is far too late is, I think, one of the saddest things about this story (the Philosopher's Stone and Snape's Worst Memory are both excellent examples, thank you for bringing them up). I agree with you, it could have broken the cycle. I completely understand why it was written the way it was. It's just sad. I still disagree with using the term "weak" to describe Severus' behavior in this case, but I totally understand your reasoning. :) I don't know what word I would prefer... dishonorable, perhaps? I would only say that in his treatment of his students, Snape is unfortunately once again reflecting the way he was treated... I have no doubt the Marauders saw him as weaker than themselves and never attacked him on an even footing, even if they were his peers. Again, not an excuse, and I think if anyone had ever been smart enough to point out this particular parallel with the Marauders to him, he may well have been taken aback enough to actually think about how he was behaving. :P

Matthew T

The hat speech all but implies it if you look it up - and on all the hp wiki pages they are listed as this nationality - not certain if jk has confirmed but theres a possibility

Garry (Not Jerry)

It is interesting though that Harry is considered half-blood even though both of his parents are magical. There isn’t really much mention of people who have like one great-grandparent who was a muggle or something. I guess even one drop of muggle blood is considered impure to a blood purists, right?

Garry (Not Jerry)

Veggie, Please CONTINUE comparing the books to the movies. It’s the best part! 1. Yes, as amazing as it seems, all students have to travel to kings cross in London, to get to Hogwarts in Scotland. This is not as ridiculous as it seems, because wizards can use floo powder, portkeys, brooms, or even the knight bus to get there. 2. The bit where Hagrid sobers up and it dawns on him that Harry shouldn’t be there, I always saw as him remembering that he is now a teacher, and not just gamekeeper, and that he has a responsibility for making sure his students follow the rules. 3. Completely agree that Snape wasn’t actually trying to kill Trevor. That being said, I don’t like snape using that as a threat (also, deliberately poisoning a creature and then un-poisoning them again is surely not going to be nice for the animal) 4. I don’t think Harry is supposed to be frozen with fear in front of the boggart dementor. I think the movie did *attempt* to convey the same thing that the book did. I.e Lupin deliberately stopping Harry from being in front of the boggart, but it didn’t really work, because they showed the dementor actually appearing in the movie, so it seemed like Lupin was diving in front of it to stop it from turning into a dementor..

Michelle Linardis

I agree with all of your points, @Rebecca May! And I think where a lot of fans like to hurl accusations - explaining the reasonings for one's behavior is in no way excusing it. Both are very different terms, which often become misused in the case of Snape here. Absolving Snape's faults eliminates half the point of the character. He made his mistakes, is fully aware of his mistakes (hence why he is literally there in the first place), and worked to right his wrongs, even if it took the entire rest of his life to do it. But unfortunately, Snape fans are mislabelled into defending every action of his, which when we do argue against his points, we are merely explaining the reasonings and why he is so often misjudged and accused for being things he wasn't. Again explaining and absolving his faults (and even virtues) are two very different things.

Rebecca May

Thank you @Michelle! :) I have to say, that is one of my favourite things about Severus - how fiercely he holds himself accountable for the most serious mistakes in his life. No-one forces him to do this... He admits them, knows the pain they have caused, and works so hard to correct them. Most of the time he does so full in the knowledge that he will get no thanks for his efforts, and in many instances further isolates himself for the greater good. Obviously he never holds himself accountable for the way he treats some of his students day-to-day. But as I've attempted to demonstrate, I think this is because he sadly was never shown the emotional and moral framework within which to evaluate and empathize with the effect his treatment has on others. You're quite right though... The hatred certain people feel for Snape seems to project onto those who attempt to empathize with him and provide context for his actions, assuming that our explanations mean we agree with him. It's an unfortunate assumption, and part of a larger pattern. I often find that people who hate Snape will posit their own assumptions about him as facts, some of which are directly contradicted by the books themselves.

Frederique Gillespie

If they all have to buy their school stuff in Diagon Alley, it stands to reason that all the Hogwarts students will have to go to London at some point, too, right?

Kunzite Blossom

Agree to disagree. I'm not gonna argue if you wanna defend someone that even the author has admitted to purposely writing him as a bully. Wanna defend Snape, go right ahead. But stop commenting on other peoples comments trying to tell us we are wrong.

Hawwah

1. What about muggleborn students, though? Although Frederique makes a good point about going to London anyway. 2. Hagrid scolds Harry for doing something reckless, the fandom praises him for it. Snape scolds Neville for doing something reckless, the fandom calls him evil, bully, child abuser, etc. Do you see the double standard? 3. Snape didn't threaten to poison Trevor, he said he was going to feed him Neville's Shrinking Solution. Properly prepared Shrinking Solution is harmless. Snape wasn't preventing Neville from preparing it properly - on the contrary, he WANTED him to prepare it properly. The rest of the class managed to do it just fine, so it wasn't unreasonable of Snape to expect the same from Neville. And he was right, wasn't he? Neville prepared the potion correctly in the end.

Hawwah

Neville constantly botches his potions. Are you suggesting he follows instructions and still somehow ends up botching his potions? How would that even be possible? Neville is bad at all subjects except herbology. Are the other teachers also bad in your opinion, or just Snape? What mind games? What cruelty? Snape wanted Neville to follow instructions and properly prepare the Shrinking Solution. The rest of the class did it just fine so it wasn't some unreasonable, impossible request.

Michelle Linardis

@Rebecca May I agree - and I find it so funny that people assume he wasn't held accountable or never suffered the consequences for his actions. The fact that he felt guilt upon the Prophecy and the death of Lily LITERALLY shows that. He suffered for his mistake - immensely. Those saying he was never held accountable, show me that they cannot comprehend his character. I mean, he wanted to end his life when Lily lost hers...Is that not proof enough of the guilt he had? Severus was never in the right environment, nor had the opportunity, to emotionally grow. He grew as a person in his actions and the things he did on the Order side, but he was never able to heal the emotional side of himself, and as Dumbledore said, "some wounds run too deep for healing." Severus was never given a reprieve, instead forced into a job he never wanted, and a role that ultimately ended his life. There was no room for him to overcome the damage of his past and the trauma he endured. He had no support system, or anyone willing to guide that side of him and help him make peace with things if it were at all possible. He had no real life for himself except that of the service of two masters. But he simply was never given that chance to heal, and it makes me so mad when people assume he should 'get over it'. No one with that kind of trauma can simply 'get over it'. It's a cruel assessment. A lot of the usual bad exaggerations over the character are from people who use words like 'incel' or 'racist' or 'abuser', when neither of those words actually correlate to him. I've seen Snape critics go after other Snape critics for not even knowing what 'incel' actually means. I mean, no one ever pretends he's a kindly, sweet man. In fact, Snape fans probably wouldn't be so favorably to him if he were. We love the bitter, snarky, imposing bastard, who will save your life without question. And it saddens me when people completely overlook the good he did (which the films never showed/told us), in favor of perceiving him as a 2D Disney villain.

Loveinthehat

Weirdly enough from actual canon information book wise and the way we see them interact… I actually think Remus was probably the least close with Sirius tbh. I think it was James that both Sirius and Remus were a lot closer to

VeggieGamer

Hi guys! Veggie Gamer here! XD I'll make a short video on here but I just wanted to say thank you all for your passion and input in these comments sections. I do however need to ask that you PLEASE be friendly and respectful to eachother. Just because you see a comment you disagree with, doesn't mean you need to try and dismantle it. When it comes to MY opinions I give in the videos, I welcome all the critique you can give me!! But when you are taking away from other people's enjoyment of making their own comments and airing their own opinions in these sections, that is when it becomes a problem. Sadly, I have received a couple of messages from people saying they really enjoy this series, but are starting to lose confidence that if they make a comment, they are safe from receiving aggressive replies. So please, when you see a comment that may have a different opinion from your own, think twice if it is really worth challenging it, and if you do, think THRICE how polite and respectful your reply is. The worst thing in the world for me is people enjoying these videos, but because they are worried about backlash, they choose not to make a comment. The comments you guys get genuinely get me through a lot of very sadl times. Like I say, feel free you rip my opinions apart in the book clubs!! But please, please don't do the same to others who are commenting their own opinions.

Garry (Not Jerry)

1. Good point both of you. For muggleborns, older students can probably use floo powder or another magical method on their own, without their parents I expect the rest will need to make do with trains, cars and buses (maybe even flights, for some). 2. Yes I can see what you mean, but I do think there is a subtle difference in that Neville is not wilfully ignoring instructions. He’s known to be clumsy and forgetful and he’s not particularly gifted at potions. I don’t think this is from lack of trying. Perhaps it is psychological, due to his family thinking that he was a squib most of his life and expecting him to fail. But you are free to disagree of course. For what it’s worth, I don’t think Snape is wrong for scolding Neville when he gets things wrong. However, a more encouraging teaching method like Lupin’s would have suited him better. 3. I’m afraid I can’t just can’t agree with you on this one. If you say “tidy your room, or I’m going to smack you” that’s a threat. If you say “make this potion correctly or im going to poison your toad” thats also a threat. Technically that’s not exactly what he said, but this is essentially the ultimatum that he is giving Neville. Either he makes the potion correctly or his toad will be poisoned. Those are the only two options given to him. I believe that Snape was wrong to do this. But it is okay if you disagree. Neville did not prepare the potion correctly by himself, because Hermione helped him, so I’m not really sure what you mean by that?

Jake M

And also, if magical adults and even their peers tell Muggleborns off every time they say Voldemort instead of You Know Who, most of them will likely get into the habit of avoiding it. Harry is a stubborn exception. Emphasis on 'stubborn' XD

Jake M

It wasn't until Veggie mimed Mr Weasley falling through the barrier that it struck me, I wonder if it was a reference to the famous Only Fools and Horses joke? And please do continue comparing the books to your movie reference points, as it's really interesting seeing a different perspective on things (having read the books first, in my case).

Jake M

I never understood the "best do it at a run" mentality. If you doubted it would work, surely running headlong into something is far worse than leaning or gently strolling? They would definitely have caused less of a scene in CoS if Harry and Ron had tried leaning through the barrier, not running like a general has shouted "Chaaarge!" XD

Jake M

A lot of people have already said to remember Trelawney's predictions, so I will say, remember all of Harry and Ron's made up ones too! "You'll get an unexpected windfall" from this chapter, for instance. Much like Vernon's socks, they amost all pay off at some point in the future XD

VeggieGamer

"Play it nice and cool, Harry. Nice and cool..."

Hawwah

Hi Garry, nice to see you again. 1. Agreed. 2. But Harry didn't wilfully ignore instructions in this case, did he? He just didn't think of the fact that it was probably not a good idea to go visit Hagrid after dark. And yet Hagrid scolded him instead of kindly and patiently explaining it to him. If I wanted, I could take this incident and use it to paint Hagrid as a horrible person, like people do with Snape. "more encouraging teaching method like Lupin’s would have suited him better" Believe it or not, I actually agree with you on this point. I never argued that Snape was a perfect teacher or that he couldn't have done anything better. I just argued that being a less than a perfect teacher doesn't make him a bad person. Hagrid is a bad teacher (at least in books 3 and 4, he got better after that), but he is generally a good person (even though he did some things I really don't agree with, e. g. Dudley's tail). 3. I find it fascinating how two people can read the same text and interpret it so differently. I don't mean it ironically or anything like that, it genuinely amazes me. It's one of the reasons why I like discussing books. "If you say “make this potion correctly or im going to poison your toad” thats also a threat." Yes, but that's not at all what Snape said! I have pet guinea pigs. Sometimes they get sick and I have to give them medicine. When a veterinarian says to me "be extra careful when measuring the right dose, because if you give them too much or too little, they'll get worse", is it a threat? No, it's a warning. An advice. A valuable information about possible consequences. "If you say “tidy your room, or I’m going to smack you” that’s a threat." Again, that's not akin to what Snape said. What Snape said was more like "Tidy your room. If you don't, you won't be able to find your things when you need them." It's not a threat, it's a warning about possible consequences of your actions (or inaction, in this particular case). "Neville did not prepare the potion correctly by himself, because Hermione helped him" Hermione merely whispered instructions to him, she didn't brew the potion with him or for him. Neville didn't properly follow Snape's instructions, but he followed hers. (BTW I think they must have been the exactly same instructions). Why was that? Because he really wanted to brew the potion correctly the second time.

Garry (Not Jerry)

Totally agree on first two points. Hagrid not being a very good teacher, absolutely. 3. It’s a good argument, but the problem I have is that Snape doesn’t have to feed the potion to Neville’s toad. He’s not passively allowing it to happen is he? He’s actively doing it. It’s actually more like “I’m going to punch the air and walk towards you, if you don’t get out of the way, it’s your own fault!” (Like something my older brother would do to me when I was young 😂) I see what you mean about Hermione’s instructions. Although Snape did forbid Hermione from helping him. Almost like he wanted Neville to fail? it seems to me like rather than motivating him to perform better, he taught Neville… how to lie and cheat his way out of a sticky situation? Besides, whether it worked is not really the point, I was just saying that I don’t agree with this teaching method. I believe it was a wrong and immoral way to motivate a student.

Rebecca May

@Michelle Linardis I entirely agree with everything you’ve written. I think the people who assume Snape wasn’t held accountable or never suffered for his mistakes are probably the same people who write off his feelings for Lily as an “unhealthy obsession”… Which literally makes no sense to me, but I won’t get started down that rabbit hole now, or I’ll be here forever. xD Just to add to your points, though, I will say that I’ve always felt the event that started the dominos falling (what happened in Snape’s Worst Memory)… Well, no one should have to suffer so much for a mistake made at only fifteen years old. I don’t blame Lily for her reaction, it’s just sad and I wish it could have been different. I do want to say, just to clarify, that I don’t think Katik’s original post was in any way intending to say that Severus should just have “gotten over it” (though of course I have seen that view expressed and it is exceedingly cruel)… I think all Katik meant to do was state that empathy should not extend to excusing or justifying unkind behaviors, a view with which I also completely agree. 😊 You’re quite right as well, I don’t think anyone who likes Severus pretends that he’s a sweet, fluffy bunny – I can’t pretend I don’t enjoy his sharp wit and sarcasm as much as the next person. But I will say that I think he was a sweet and innocent boy once. I think one of the reasons I’m drawn to him is the feeling that the boy he used to be is still buried deep underneath all that pain and suffering, wondering why no one ever thought he was worth being loved. (Also, as a side note, it really irks me when people assume that the only reason anyone could ever care about Severus Snape is because he was played by Alan Rickman… I mean, don’t get me wrong, I adore Alan Rickman and he has been a hugely influential figure in my life, but he’s not wonderful enough to completely destroy my mental and emotional faculties or my moral compass. I don’t walk around defending Hans Gruber or the Sheriff of Nottingham, enjoyable as they may be to watch on screen).

Saiyasha

Regarding Squib: A Squib is th exact opposite of a Muggleborn. Muggleborn Children are Children with magical ability, born to two non-magical parents. Squibs are non magical children, born to magical Parents. So a Squib born to two Muggleparents would just be a, well, Muggle. By that definition, all Muggles are Squibs. So, no, a Squib cannot be born to two Muggle parents, because the point of a Squib is them theoretically belonging to the magical world, but not really

Saiyasha

Some people speculate that Pavartis Warning about the red haired man _was_ actually meant for Padma, her identical Twin, and Trelawny just mixed them up.

Saiyasha

Carefull how serious you take Trelawny. While most of her predictions _do_ come true, after a fashion, it is really hard to say whether she even realizes their real predictions. All the things she said in the first class could also have been said by a good Con-Artist: This is the first lesson. If Pavarti meets a red haired man along the year, she will rememebr this prediction and feel it being vindicated and true. But if she doesn't, she'll forget about it soon and it won't even cross her mind that Trelawny was wrong. Same thing with Neville: He already has a Reputation and even if she doesn't leave her Tower often, it isn't unthinkable that she has heard about him and his clutziness, so her giving this warning is not only a fair guess, it also _does_ influence the future, in the way that Neville is now going to be much more nervous about it happening, since, apparently, it is unavoidable. And if you ever had the permiating fear that soething_might_ be happening, you know that you are so much more likely to actually _make_ it happen, then otherwise. So her saying this may have set the course of events in motion in the first place. Trelawny, above all, wants to impress and wants to be recognized for her talent. If she really wanted to warn the Students for their sake, she would take them aside quietly and tell them "Listen, i have seen such and such, you might wanna look out" But instead, she does it in front of the entire class. McGonnagal said she predicts the death of a Student every year and so far none of them have died and lets face it, having Harry in class must be Christmas come early for her- With him, her prediction is so much more likely to come true, sinve he was almost killed _twice_ in as many years already.

Saiyasha

Don't listen too whoever told you not to reference the movies, I think It is fascinating for you, coming from a different perspective to see the differences

Saiyasha

Honestly, even _if_ that was true and Snape was thinking of curing trevor, he still A) traumatized an already bullied and mostly friendless Student, B) still _risked_ the death of that Students pet, because there is no such thing as 100% certainty. What if trevor was already suffering from some other illness and Snape wasn't able to get to im in time? Snape wouln't know, he has no idea about trevors background, I'm not even certain whe knows what kind of toad he is! But itreally doesn't matter. imagine a real teacher doing this to a Student. imagine Neville, lying in bed at night, crying because he thought he was going to lose his only constant companion. Imagine him crying at night all alone because something went wrong and trevor _did_ die. Imagine the pain and hurt and fear in hi, He is _13_. No teacher shoud ever do _anything_ like this to a student. it is abuse and frankly, this and another scene that comes in a later book made up my mind: Snape, all in all, works for "the greater good". but that does not stop him from being a petty, vindictive asshole in his day to day life, a terrible and abusive teacher who needs to be sacked. McGonnagal neevr had Ron turn Scabbers into a Chalice. I'm not sure if the movie version tried to say that it was Scabbers he was transforming, but in the books it's just general Animals (I think rats aren't even among them, I rememeber Snails, bunnys, Ravens and Toads) but she never made the Students practice on their _own_ animals

Saiyasha

Rememeber, the dtaff room isn't the individual teachers office. The teacher have their own offices, that _are_ fashioned to their personalities, but the Staff room is for everyone, so it wouldn't be indiviualzed like this

Saiyasha

JK is the queen of classical naming. Remus Lupin: Remus, one of the two brother who founded Rome, Romulus and Remus and where raised by a wolf; Lupin from the latin word Lupus, meaning wolf Sirius: named after a star called the "Dogstar" for being Part in the Constellation Canis Major Merope: Named after the youngest of the Plejadies, minor Greek Godesses. Merope was the only one of her Sisters to marry a mortal man instead of a God and her star is the smalles and weakest in the Constellation named after them

Caroline

your so right! remember Vernon's socks Veggie! Maybe he should make post-its with keywords (without spoiling anything), but so he can remember things when they become important.

Katik

I knew about the Remus Lupin and Sirius connection but not about Merope. That's so cool! Thanks for sharing!

Dara Jeeling

@Veggie I had a German teacher who had (and shared) his oppinion on how families with many kids, the kids had to share the brain - meaning the more siblings you had - he thought you less intelligent. Which I thought is stupid and rude. I mean... I was always ggood in his classes until he met my 4 younger siblings - and I could never again get a good grade from him. That was actually NOT funny at all since German was one of my graduating subjects and this could have ruined my chances of going to university. We also had a Math s teacher who used to throw his keys if you did not get things the first time. And I totally agree on you try not to bring your personal problems and take them out on the people you work with wether students / co workers / elderly / whoever. Sometimes it can be hard, espcially if you work with people who are good at catching moods - but not expressing them - like my old people with dementia. and yay - can't wait for the next chapters! Hope you have a pleasant weekend!

itsanursething

So, I didn't specifically go looking for this, but as I was doing my reading for my psych class this week, I came across an interesting point in my textbook that (to me) explains why Neville struggled so hard. To paraphrase: people with depression think differently than people who are not. The stereotypical patterns of negative and self-critical thinking distort their ability to think and process information. I know it's not specifically stated anywhere, but I would not be surprised if Neville was depressed in the first few books. Once he starts gaining confidence in Order, he drastically improves! But, yeah, he thinks so poorly of himself and this would explain why he has so much trouble.

itsanursething

I had a teacher in high school who made kid cry because she was so mean to him, and when another student tried to defend him and say she shouldn't speak to him like that, she screamed in his face. I transferred out of that class as soon as I could! Not mean, but I also had a science teacher who told me she didn't believe that we ever landed on the moon...

Zachary

You're thinking about the Hogwarts express from a muggle perspective. This problem would only really apply to muggleborn students as wizarding families can just travel to Kings Cross via floo powder or apparition. Even muggleborn students are probably directed to the nearest wizarding shop etc which has a floo connection that will allow them to travel to Kings Cross easily.

S1lm4r1l

> "It's not true that Neville is bad at potions because Snape picks on him. It's the other way around - Snape started to pay extra attention to Neville only AFTER Neville proved he was extremely bad at potions (PS, chapter 8)" So Neville being the 'almost chosen one' has no bearing on the way Snape treats Neville? I'm sceptical. > "Snape's goal was never to hurt Trevor or Neville. His goal was to make Neville brew the potion properly. And he succeeded in that." He didn't though. Did he? Neville gets the answers from Hermione. Snape even takes points away from Gryffindor because of this. Snape knows full well Neville's potion was okay because Hermione helped him. > "Snape doesn't put unreasonably high expectations on Neville. The rest of the class brewed the potion just fine, so Snape is not being unfair to Neville when he expects the same from him." Agreed. > "Hermione didn't brew the potion with Neville, she just whispered Snape's instructions to him - the exactly same instructions Neville used before. Neville didn't properly follow them the first time, but he followed them the second time when he was motivated to brew the potion correctly. Thus proving he was capable doing it properly and just not trying hard enough before." Thereby proving that it is Snape's teaching that causes Neville to fail. > "I don't believe Neville is acting out of malice but I absolutely believe he is reckless." Yes. But no more than others. There's numerous instances of most of the other students in that class being reckless. Agreed on points 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7. (Although again, Neville is not the only person who gets things wrong, but he is the only person who receives special attention from Snape. The only other person in that category might be Harry and Snape hates him.) > "Snape didn't pay any special attention to Neville until Neville botched his potion. So it's not true that Neville is bad at potions because Snape picks on him. It's the other way around - Snape started to pay extra attention to Neville only AFTER Neville proved he was extremely bad at potions." Why can't it be both? > "I have to insist that Snape didn't TRY or WANT to poison Trevor." Agreed. But he was completely unconcerned about what would happen to Trevor, the same with the trauma he was putting Neville through. > "It's another example how seriously he takes safety in his classroom (having the antidote at the ready for the case somebody messes up)." You think this is unique to Snape? You think any other competent teacher wouldn't be carrying the antidote? > "If Snape wanted to poison Trevor for some reason, why not feed him the first botched potion? Why make Neville brew another one? Also, as I wrote in my original comment, Snape has a collection of poisons in his office. It would have been really easy for him to poison Trevor if he had wanted to. He could have done that years ago. Or he could have sabotaged Neville's second potion to make sure it would be poisonous. Also, if he'd wanted to be really petty, he could have pulled a Gryphook and told Neville "I never said I'll change him back" and leave Trevor as a tadpole." Sorry but that's just a silly argument. > "And I may even agree with them! However, I wish they would stop saying that Snape tried/wanted to poison and/or kill Trevor because that's OBJECTIVELY not true." Snape was perfectly happy to have Neville think that's what he intended to do. Threatening to murder someone's pets for failing to perform in class is just terrible. They don't get bonus points for later saying "Oh no, I was only joking." > "I disagree with the idea that Snape puts unreasonably high expectations on Neville. Snape wants Neville to pay attention in class, follow instructions and not to endanger anyone. I think these are all perfectly reasonable requests. And don't forget that the rest of the class brewed the potion just fine, so I really don't think Snape is being unfair to Neville when he expects the same from him. It's not like Snape assigned Neville with some extremely advanced potion that Neville legitimately couldn't make." Snape bullies Neville almost every single class. And Neville couldn't make it under the conditions to which Snape was subjecting him too. > "Now to Hermione. Hermione didn't brew the potion for Neville. She whispered the instructions to him. Now, what instructions were they? Some better, adjusted, easier to follow ones? No - you already know what Hermione thinks about those (HBP movie). Hermione whispered Snape's instructions to Neville - the exactly same instructions Neville used before. Neville didn't properly follow them the first time, but he followed them the second time when he was motivated to brew the potion correctly. So I insist on what wrote - Neville proved that he is capable of doing things properly and he just doesn't try hard enough most of the time." But this proves that the problem is Snape's teaching! When the instructions were coming from a friendlier person Neville could do it. > "Why did Snape take points from Gryffindor? Because he had told Hermione not to show off and let Neville brew the potion alone." So could Neville do it alone or couldn't he? You're trying to have it both ways. > "I don't think it makes Neville a bad person - children and teenagers tend to be reckless, it's natural - but I also don't think it makes Snape a bad person to call him out for it. I'm sorry but that's just a teacher doing his job." Neville and Harry are the ones who get subjected to this kind of treatment from Snape. And there are plenty of reckless students in that class. When Goyle's potion exploded over everyone, did Snape bully Goyle? No. He didn't. He has no idea what caused the explosion until he removed the firework from the cauldron. > "To your question if I admit I might be biased towards Snape. I feel this is a very tricky question. Whether I say yes or no, it can be interpreted in a bad way. I don't think you would do that, but some people on this forum undoubtedly would. Let me just say that I absolutely don't think Snape is perfect, beyond criticism or that he couldn't have done anything better." I just don't get why people would defend Snape threatening to hurt Neville's pets if he gets it wrong. Especially when it has been repeatedly proved that Snape's treatment of Neville makes his inclination to make mistakes worse. It's not that Snape's methods are mean-spirited and cruel. They're ineffective too. Put Slughorn in the classroom and not Snape and Neville would be a bad student, but no-where near as terrible as he is when Snape's in the room.

Hawwah

S1lm4r1l, I told you in the last Book Club that I wasn't going to engage in any future discussions with you. After you wrote that Quirrell - a teacher who tried to murder a student 3 times - cared about students' safety, I realized that you were not interested in a serious discussion. You just post absurd claims to elicit strong reactions from people. I'm not interested in that and I won't participate in that.

S1lm4r1l

Everything I've said has been textually supported. Umbridge made it quite plain that Quirrell confined himself to age-appropriate subjects. Umbridge is of course a terrible person and a terrible teacher. However, she saw right through Trelawney and Hagrid. She was right about neither of them really being up to the task. If you'd prefer to sulk because other people disagree with you. That's up to you. But I didn't expect a Snape fan to be an apologist for bullying. You constructed this ludicrous scenario where a teacher threatening to hurt a student's pet was in anyway justifiable. My off-hand comment about Quirrell looks pretty insignificant to what you tried to pull.

Hawwah

@itsadancething I mean no offence to you but it seems you're just pulling diagnoses out of thin air. First Neville is dyslexic, then he's depressed, what will come next? Maybe he has poor eyesight and needs glasses, that's why he's so clumsy and doesn't follow Snape's instructions. My question is, do we have any actual textual evidence to support it? No, we do not.

VeggieGamer

I really like the dyslexia theory, Dance! May bring it up in a future Book Review video! Fact is, it has always been something that a lot of students in RL had to deal with, without being diagnosed or getting help, so I think it is definitely a possibility he may at least have it or some other kind of learning difficulty! :)

Hawwah

@S1lm4r1l Snape never threatened to hurt Trevor. But I think you're perfectly aware of that and just trying to provoke me. It's not going to happen. You're wasting your time.