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Episode 435: Evil Gods Must Be Fought: The Zizian Murder Cult [Part 2] (Patreon)

Published:
2025-02-03 16:52:32
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Part two of two. We go into the tumblrs, discords, and court documents to try and piece together the story of the Zizians, what caused them to kill, and what might happen next.

Discover more episodes at podcast.trueanon.com

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Comments

Rebekah

thank you i really needed this

Matt

Y’all don’t know who the original zyzz is?

jer

Hey gang

Carmen Barter

Just finished the first episode literally one second ago

tursi

LETS GO MONDAY UPLOAD <3 ty chomsky

Dan Rincon

Hell yeah baby. We on zizian time.

Anthony Zaragoza

YC that recap intro is so epoch and the music so epic! Or vice versa or both!!

Cookie

Is it rational to eat a whole box of Oreos while sitting on my bathroom floor listening to TrueAnon at 12 on a Monday instead of working? Is that ethical?

MediocreDude

They're not exactly lefties, so who knows how much they wanna talk to you, but Billy from WARMODE went to school with one of the Zizians

Blank

Multi-ep true crime narrative feels classico in the best of ways 🥰

meyer

yes ♥️

Brent

New TrueAnon fills me with the oddest blend of joy and terror. I can’t be the first to have noticed this.

Donnie Ka

The Zyzzians were even crazier

Knosnothing

We need some Luka commentary soon.

anna

in the middle of a Lost rewatch so I really appreciated this intro yc

Cookie

Gang Gang fellow libs!

Quinn

🚨 INFOHAZARD 🚨 Elon Musk Robot Penis 🚨 INFOHAZARD 🚨

Tryg

Now that we're all liberals again, can we start our own cult of meth-gobbling perverts? To be honest, it's bèen years since I have allowed myself to be sodomised for a living wage...

Rory

Stretcher in the living room is crazy. What were they doing 😭

Jacob

what da hell

Mango Bolsonaro

Yall talkin about Dis chord, dat chord… I’m just tryna grill for gosh sakes

Jime Time

You guys are so awesome

tapwaterskeptic

Finding out I’m the only vegan tranny who wasn’t invited to the death cult😞

wormhole

SCREAMO INFOHAZARD: "Rent America are responsible for the most absurd performance I saw of this era. They took awhile to set up, then they literally played a blast beat for like two seconds, and then they were all on the floor crying and rolling and crawling around. No more music was played. Also, the singer made a speech about refusing to use a microphone because it was elitist and placed him above the crowd before they played, so for the two seconds they played he was just yelling into the air. They were just lying on the floor crying for awhile, and then one of them started yelling “the worms…the worms..oh my god…the worms” and made this teary eyed speech about how because of the human race putting concrete and asphalt all over the earth when it rains the worms come out and can’t find their way back to the earth and die in the sun on the concrete. At this point, people just started laughing and the rest of the set was spent by Rent America yelling at the crowd for not taking them seriously and about how it took so much guts to show that emotion in front of a crowd.”

tursi

lol i forgot about that aussie body builder guy

Bert

Listen to me very closely you IDIOT! This post was stupid! Elon Musk's robot penis is going to force me to suck it for eternity for knowing about it and it's all your fault!

Chas Padunski

I’m having trouble trying to square the way these types of people combine a commitment to “rationality” with pretty obvious escapism and fantasism. Like why care so much about being “reasonable” when your whole thing is multiverse mysticism crossed with pop culture?

B

thanks to brace for putting me onto thin lizzy

manbob

Was waiting for that Rock me Amadeus drop

Mountain Dew Or Crab Juice

Roko: "Hey, can I copy your homework? The Bible: "Sure, just don't make it obvious."

pulled a muscle yearning

Listening from Alaska, can confirm, it's pretty cold. But it's not that bad, I got my slope coat on today. At least it's not on fire here

D. Elwood

my life for Aiur lol, but seriously Korean Pro Starcraft goes well with that episode y'all did on KPOP abuse from a couple years ago, some really rough stuff came out of the Broodwar scene

jrab

THANK YOU I knew the worm thing reminded me of a notorious 90s hc incident lol

Jacob Makes

these people need to be locked up

jrab

Jerome’s Dream originally didn’t use a mic either

Salex

I got the ADHD/‘tism combo. Can confirm, they have the vibe. Stimulants all over the place. Obviously they took a really, really dark hyper-focused turn here.

jrab

Been fighting the urge to check in on someone I haven’t talked to in a couple years just because she’s a vegan trans anarchist transhumanist 😳 last I knew she was a hare krsna not a rationalist though

jrab

And the ultrasound machine?? Unspecified “surgical equipment”. Night vision goggles. What the fuck were they doing

jrab

Sounds optimized

jrab

Slavoj Zyzzek

jrab

Consider why you would feel the need to actually title your movement “Rational.” Methinks they doth protest too much (or: question already answered by T-shirt, in the parlance of our times)

Gabe

My life for Aiur

Mountain Dew Or Crab Juice

Good performance art can never truly be appreciated because it requires you to really fucking annoy people in its delivery.

NYCM&AHole

These people are insufferable. Can’t they just go in a submarine to visit the titanic?

NYCM&AHole

ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKKEKEKEE

Major Pisano

Pop psychology is an info hazard.

NYCM&AHole

Mental tech shit = insufferable level increases geometrically. All these fucking people.

gav

It’s a crime that only patreon subs get to hear the masterful yung chomsky episode recaps

tapwaterskeptic

Or whateva the Hare Krishnas do, no disrespect

drewb

#egg #🥚

Elliot Smith

"Sorry I really hit the but hard"

PT

🥚

Sam

Steven Universe and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

550mg

awesome editing for the intro hung chomsky

Amonkus

Another example of mentally unwell people finding other mentally unwell people on the internet and creating a positive reinforcement loop of insane beliefs leading to real-world consequences. People with views so far outside the Overton window should not be allowed to find community.

Samwell Ganges

"This place is like Minecraft... Minefield, uh... Minesweeper"

Matthew Scott Aaron

The disagreement on numbering hierarchies in pyramids is one of my absolute favorites, always cracks me up.

buttface

Please shut the hell up with the Pyramid argument every episode 🙏

Alex

Crazy Inland Empire pull from Yung Chomsky there

K H

Steven Universe is a children's show that has vaguely LGBTQ elements. There are gem based alien women and they can fuse together to form a more powerful being. I can't remember if the aliens ever actually kiss. It isn't very good in my opinion and I can see why people that get freaked out by chain email logic would also be dumb enough to find it appealing. It has a very simple art style and story beat that won't overwhelm a certain type of individual. Many are still overwhelmed by it.

NYCM&AHole

Also - no thin lizzy drop for jailbreak? Seriously, YC? This must’ve been really fucking taxing if that slipped by.

NYCM&AHole

Poop psychology. A shitty way to think.

Jonathan Fischer

When this series started I literally thought it was about Zyzz, that bodybuilder guy who died like 10 years ago. Guess it’s not. Lol

LB

Amonkus

Yung Chomsky was definitely itching to make a reference to Zyzz but knew Liz and Brace would have no idea wtf he was talking about

NYCM&AHole

I swear by the time this is over I’m gonna have to compensate for learning about these shitheads who ruined San Francisco by watching San Francisco get nuked in the Terminator Genisys intro, on repeat.

Filip Buljan

Okay but what are Liz’s thoughts on the Luka/AD trade?

gav

What’s the name/number of the plurals episode?

varis leek

I feel like I can hear yc breathe

caleb haynes

As a Caleb some of this was pretty hard to listen to

professional loaf of bread

Damn I thought it was a cult based around gymgod Zyzz, we’re all gonna make it bros

Brent

Reminds me of an argument I once fell into over which side is the “front” of the grocery cart. It. Doesn’t. Matter.

Kelley

As someone who lives around the corner from Media and Chester Heights, I can confirm it is one of the, let’s say, “ritzier” areas of Delco. Not super wealthy but def above some of the lesser suburbs (I’m looking at you, Ridley)

Skip

Look up Iain Mcgilchrist for some left brain/right brain stuff. I think it's realer than talked about here. Not necessarily the characterization of left/right presented by the Zizians, but there are real differences.

Steven

It’s like a modern Final Fantasy VII House

Richard Cochnar

How did this stupid-ass Reddit thought experiment have a real world Lovecraft effect on some dipshit? What a dumb world.

Brent

It’s critical that we settle this once and for all.

Doug Cartel

Man how did I follow basically the same path and still come out the other end relatively normal compared to this guy Starcraft, internet forums, hard sci fi novels etc

Sam Bondurant

No Luke emergency pod?? Liz slipping on her ringer application

Wyatt Barnes

Damn my health anxiety lookin pretty normcore compared to these basilisk pilled loonies

Collieflower

This is the weirdest fucking story you’ve done.

——

I have no idea what they’re talking about. I’m not saying I don’t understand the people they’re discussing, I have no idea what they’re even saying. I don’t know if I missed some major context or some part of the introduction or what

Omar Hashem

Can we get 10 more parts of this

Blank

Liz invoking right to remain silent does not trigger cops having to get a search warrant—the issue is not consenting to entry/search (in the absence of conditions that would justify a warrantless search). Likewise cops having a search warrant doesn’t change your right to remain silent. Side note was happy to hear Brace’s reference to felony murder :)

Ryan

seeing 2:36 runtime and nodding vigorously

Seeking Treatment

[0] episodes since Brace and Liz argue about pyramid numeric hierarchy

Nic Bodiford

Liz’s dork-screaming “No. NO!” 💀💀💀

Brendan Kneeland

All of this blog language sounds like me twisting my brain to “convince” myself I wasn’t gay in middle school. Puberty + mild smarts/autism = awww sad Puberty + mild smarts/autism + billions of dollars/inherited money and god complex = whatever this is

Cody S

Pontypool your own mind from computer exposure

NYCM&AHole

Hashtag rezyzzstance

Pink&TealCore

VAMPIRE THE MASQUERADE MENTIONED

Nicholas

This whole saga reminds me so much of the Fredrick Knudsen video about the Final Fantasy House

Gallo Altanero

I worked for the Daily Cal at Berkeley for years and had to do a story on a “cuddle puddle” oh, god the smell. My colleague and I and photographer still have ptsd from this. I was smashed between a guy who went by “squidward” (I believe a character from futurama) and my co-writer got “Sahara” (they separated her and I) and you would lay in a line. And the closing thing I quoted from “squidward” was, “a boner is mother natures thumbs up.” I have to find that article. My editor hated me so I know she made me go to this on purpose.

O

I’ve been spending the past two and a half hours wondering if someone I knew from trans anarchist discords circa 2016-2019 was going to pop up in this story. Luckily none have but this story has been so crazy to me because I’m so familiar with these types of people.

AfroCommie

this gonna be like the utah series huh

John Swan

Disorganized rationality. It is painfully schizoaffective in its presentation.

Gallo Altanero

Why did the editor hate me, beyond the pranks on her, might also be I accepted gifts from people I was writing stories about. I was like a 19 year old college student. Marlboro put her over the edge lol. Also went a little gonzo and put myself in the stories. And the Oakland Tribune did not like me cause I was like 20 years younger than them at least and while on the crimes beat turns out little old me got criminals to open up more. Ehh. We will call it even.

projotce

My head hurts. I showed part one to my boyfriend so I could relisten and will be doing so with this one too, but my head hurts

Ian Mc

Were all gonna make it brahs

Brady Allard

a spiritual tug to you good sir!

Gallo Altanero

Lol, we all kind of blacked out during it. And definitely later that night over cheap booze once freed from writing. Was front page though. Of a college paper. But we had pull given the Berkeley mayor had goons steal all our papers for our pick and got caught.

LPO Crane Jefferson

This cult kind of reminds me of the Love Has Won cult. Different ideologies but the sort of being around eachother too much with their weird theories and behaviors doing too many drugs. Frying their brains and doing weird medical procedures on eachother.

Ernest Ambrus

I came for the eggs, I stayed for the cult.

Zachary Engberg

jsyk that's every single cult if you introduce drugs (it fails) - the secret of the mormons is they keep that shit AWAY!

Nathan Bebo

degen liveaboards. a sail boat that doesn't sail. wonder if they had enough sense to get the waste pumped out.

boop

wow i took a picture of Caleb 2 years ago, anyone who has visited the Maverick's surf beach has certainly seen it

Toshio42

"Mm." -Young Chomsky

Tone Bug

I need to hear more this is going to haunt me

To w

Trueanon endorses the nonfiction case study “Dark Dungeons” by noted Philosopher Jack Chick ?

dam

perhaps you aren't 👀

Stew

You didn’t do all the racism parts

Kelby

You guys went so deep on this. I've also been sleepless rolling over what they could've been doing. They might've been buying property as they said but the gear they had with them during the shootout and some of the other details like the cell phones wrapped in foil makes me think something else was cooking.

syd

An hour in and this feels a lot more like the Final Fantasy House than the Manson Family

alex

had to listen to the first part 3 times and will have to do the same for this one but i am committed love you guys

Eric Jacobsen

Peter Principle is from the late seventies. the idea is that people get promoted up corporate structures to their exact point of incompetency Peter is a good junior salesperson. he gets promoted to senior, then department manager, then district manager. eventually he makes VP but he sucks at it. but nobody fires upper brass (or even demotes basically anyone except under extraordinary circ.) because they can blame shit on their underlings.

Eric Jacobsen

any parent who squawks about cartoons making their kids trans is probably talking about SU my impression is that it’s pretty okay, like if you took only the extremely soy moments of Adventure Time and cut everything else. meaningful to people who need that

Gilmartin Fitzpatrick

Unrelated, but re: furries and otherkin - some furries do identify fully as their species, though the word "otherkin" has mostly fallen out of favor in the community - most people use "therian" (short for "therianthropy", which is like lycanthropy but more generally for any non-human animal) to describe themselves. As far as I know most therians have not gone on multi state murder sprees but ya never know

Blank

Is that 0 on the top or bottom?

w

52:30 - DID from loneliness / poor socialization trauma is so on point.. - a psychotherapist

w

Also I’m sure at least one or two of these ppl have autism and adhd but probably not all of them. Gotta have a few personality disorders sprinkled in 😍

lio

Tacoma is actually in Pierce County🫤

jsobrie

Less discord more dischord records

K H

Pretty much exactly.

Graham Isom

My family friends were the ones who built the Taj Mahal boat! And they still maintain it for the owners

Sara ford

Does anyone remember what episode Young Chomsky referenced? He said the episode number. I am committed to another listen through if needed but thought I’d check here first.

Louis Wilkins

Ever been so rational that you didn’t notice your 80 year old landlord was packing a gat and failed to factor it into your murder/dismemberment plan?

Graham Isom

He says his grandpa built it in the 1970s and he says someone is currently renting it.

Noah Hutchinson

Shout out from Alaska, everything you said about it is true.

NDowl

Is there any connection to between this person‘s name and the mythic “Ziz” (old testament/Jewish)

Henry

190-something. "Network"

Pranjal Dwivedi

Brace has been a godsend for butchering South Indian names (Ramaswamy, Sriram Krishnan, Venkatesh Rao). Also this is just another example of a disembodied populace who are marginalised and grasp for something concrete, but tech and its ideology are similarly disembodied and an unfortunate good match for kids in West Coast cities

i shyr

Any association with Steven Universe = jail

C

I studied math in college and randomly took a decision science class and to me it was like the least rigorous and most nonsensical pseudo application of mathematics concepts I’d ever seen, for what ever that’s worth. Also, very easy.

Sara ford

Thank you! My brain was stuck on 193

HATERSLAYER420

might be one of my favorite episodes

Kaleb

Same

tapwaterskeptic

“Where did they get a katana” - gong owner Brace Belden.

Christopher Price

mention tiers and the break down into an abbot and Costello routine. if it makes anyone feel any better there's a 2000 year long running argument about whether Jesus referred to himself as the capstone or the cornerstone.

NYCM&AHole

From boss amplifiers

nadia

5 minutes in already an inland empire soundbite let’s gooo

Zachary Engberg

They made the Manson connection but I’m sorry this is 100% just an offshoot of Scientology. Calling ideas “tech,” the obsession with sex and rape, the hacking of the brain, the fucking fleet of boats - these guys are just super autistic Scientologists

Zachary Engberg

The Basilisk is just Xenu bro THEYRE JUST WORST SCIENTOLOGISTS this is crazy

Hugo

Wtf happened in this episode haha

Butternut Squash

invader zim “isn’t steven universe but might as well be” ??? STAY OUT OF BUSINESS YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT

Hugo

Get Matt McCusker on to talk hemi syncing 🧠

Kamran Husain

what’s the naomi thing all about?

Jane Allred

God, so much of this gives me flashbacks to my early transition days. The internet is so foundational in just figuring out what the fuck to do, and these pockets of militant self-infantalizing tech anarchists are inevitable, and it breaks my heart how many people can get wrapped up in it. I had no idea how deep it could go. To any early transitioners out there, I beg you, for the love of Steven Universe, be weary of the overly online anarchists.

K

Re:27mins in - as a narcoleptic I can confirm it IS very bad for you to have too much rem sleep…that’s literally what narcolepsy is 😭

Alexandria

Never enough stimulants on a boat

Elizabeth Santorella

It must vary. I did an economics PhD and did not take decision theory because it was known as a very difficult class that only hardcore math people enjoy — but yes, not very useful. Incidentally, I don’t think academic decision theory looks favorably on the variant that people on LessWrong pulled out of their asses.

MCL

We need a deep dive on Chick Tracts

Marcus

does anyone have a link to the Basilisk post with the StarCraft cinematic at the end

Marcus

wait what

MCL

As a Scientologist I agree

Nathan Lake

If you need gumshoes on the ground in northern Vermont we are ready and waiting (also sorry it was so cold that one time you came this far north)

Marcus

yeah these episodes are probably the most amount of times I've had to rewind a podcast

jrab

Can’t believe you didn’t talk about “unihemispheric sleep” (one of the craziest reported zizian practices; isn’t this Gwen’s “sleep tech”?). I was really hoping you &/or scientist friend would have thoughts on whether it’s even real and how much it was really practiced. Speaking of hemispheres, I think someone said that “most people” are single-good in Z philosophy; this is NOT true - most people are non-good, “flesh-eating monsters.” (I think in Z jargon “good” technically is defined as something like being able to empathize with all sentient life equally?) Being single-good is already very rare (I recall reading a quantitative estimate of like one in a thousand or a million or something) and basically only Ziz is double-good (ultra ultra rare). Hemispheres are each, independently, good, neutral or evil (not “bad”), much like they have independent gender identities... also wondered if you’d come across any references to Julian Jaynes’ “The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind”; seems like a new age precursor of “hemisphere theory”. I also can’t help but think how rationalism as a whole is very influenced by utilitarianism which talks about how what’s good is maximizing utility which basically means states of pain or pleasure that ultimately exist as measurable, concrete physical situations in the brain. So along with all the stuff you talk about in Network, they have a science nerd rationale for thinking of themselves like “I am the meat computer that is my brain, I am jack’s two hemispheres, etc” I think I’ve seen statements on one or more zizian blogs to the effect that “I am not a person”

jrab

Thank you, I was also wondering, why doesn’t the episode call out more that these people very often and openly say they are anarchists? I realize they’re in many ways outside the anarchist mainstream (like national anarchists or ancaps) but it’s kind of a continually renewing L for the whole concept that it can go with almost anything

jrab

Leverage

jrab

“A fucking samurai sword…like in an anime”

jrab

YES. It comes via a webcomic called Worm. Ziz is a name of a character known more generally as Simurgh (another name from ancient West Asian literature), an apocalyptic goddess who can control peoples minds and make them dangerous to each other yes this is seriously what it’s from

Clean Shirt Piggie

As a devoted Lizian, it is my duty to clarify that Tacoma is not in King County.

Marcus

yeah this is making me feel very sane

jrab

Also, the Biblical Ziz is mentioned only twice in Psalms as apparently unidentified creature. It is aggadah (rabbinic lore) that Ziz is a gigantic bird like how Leviathan is for seq creatures and Behemoth for land animals. At the feast of the Messiah, the pious will feast on the flesh of these giant creatures as a recompense for all the non-kosher meats they didn’t eat in life. Again yes seriously

Marcus

Episode 191: Network

Simon Maraya

I believe YC said it's 191 - Network

jrab

Ugh sorry one more dumb thing tech anarchists living on boats in the bay reminds me of that spooky mfer moxie who made signal. And of grimes and her bf’s diy houseboat falling apart in the Mississippi around the same time hahahah

Stinkamus

Fucm yea more of this ✅🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰

C

Huh, weird. I’d be shocked if an economics person wouldn’t be able to grasp it. There’s some I guess semi-advanced mathematics concept they deploy like limits, but not anywhere with the level of specificity or rigor you’d expect in modern mathematics.

jazzybaboon

🚨 FACT CHECK: Tacoma is in Pierce County

w

Lmao caught

Cristian Perez

One day we’ll get to the bottom of this pyramid problem #egg

Colin Helpio

Most normal "Sex on Tuesday" column

NDowl

Ya this was the one I was thinking of! It’s just some random concept knockin around in the grey matter since childhood religious schooling… though we obviously didn’t get into all the niceties you lay out haha

Nick

Needed to pack a ZYN to make through this one

Travis T.

YC your dark forest drop with the conventional vs nuclear propulsion WAS NOT IN VAIN.

Shiv

oh we doing 🚨 FACT CHECK:? In case someone else w sleep disorders hasn’t weighed in, it’s Deep sleep > light sleep > REM. REM is light on a ‘brain waves similar to waking ones’ level. But is the one where your brain should paralyze you so you don’t act out your dreams. Liz’s point is I’m sure correct - hacking to an all-REM result would be BAD. Deep sleep is critical for bodily repair. 🧠 💫 🌈

Shiv

pls tell your family friends i also love it #boat

Q Goatman

on behalf of theythem otherkins we disavow zyzzians

August Gardener

Wild that a comp-sci dork who graduated from the same state uni group, only 400 miles north of me, four years later, turned other comp-sci dorks into paranoid shooters. What a world eh?

Michael S. Judge

I doubt these people know it, but the idea of calling everything "tech," particularly "the notion to have a certain thought," comes directly from Scientology – it was part of the general "this is science, not a cult" façade, but it was also L. Ron Hubbard's workaround for the fact that you can't copyright general ideas, so his exact spoken or written iterations of those ideas became TECH, and a shitload of Scientology whisteblower persecution is legally premised upon "theft" and "illegal distribution" of THE TECH, i.e., telling other people what Scientology is

Michael S. Judge

and the Church of Scientology has a pretty good legal record – more, I think, in harassing people out of bringing lawsuits than actually WINNING lawsuits – via the strategy of telling potential plaintiffs that if they so much as mention anything but the most basic introductory part of Scientology, they're actually committing GRAND LARCENY and BLACK-MARKET COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT ... of THE TECH.

Noah

Yall should do an episode about the Luka trade/ Miriam adelson, some interesting stuff about gambling and moving the team to Vegas. These episodes were great freaky as hell

NYCM&AHole

I’m not here to play rhythm guitar - fuck discord

Goodie

Their lack of moral compass, or active sabotaging of it, bodes poorly for the rule of law in mitigating the network state. Common Law at its root is "everyone agrees this thing bad because it feels bad/makes others feel bad/makes society bad." If their whole thing is rationalizing those feelings away...I'm glad I bailed on law school.

Christopher Price

ok, I'm remembering something from Tumblr a long time ago where Grimes had to defend herself of not being a strict vegan because she didn't want to annoy her grandparents. now I'm wondering if the people harassing her about it were rationalists.

Michael S. Judge

but a tugboat should be named something like Ralph or Gus or Toots or Shanghai Rose

Ligma

I had to take a break after hearing the name "fluttershy" and then "Darth Sidius"

Kyle Palmer

The Protoss religion is Psiontology.

Hasufel

Liz! You have to do an episode about the Luka trade. There's so much there! Miriam Adelson! Vegas move and gambling! TV deals! Lebron and Pelinka! (i hope you heard my tip), the trade story is prime TrueAnon!

Michael S. Judge

This is a real question, given the number of people involved, the pseudonyms, the pronoun-tracking over time – is Alexander Leatham also one of the other names here, and if so, what is up with that face? That looks like bootleg cosmetic surgery or something?

Inge Teloo

uniquely 2020s usa kinda thing going on here

Tammy

That shit w the 80yr old man getting skewered w a sword and then blasting those fucking dorks all the way to “hogwarts graduation” is like a scene from Riki-Oh or a Shaws Bros movie… my mind is so blown trying to imagine it.

Katana King

I had to see it. There wasn't much left. But when I was there it was strange. I suddenly had this feeling that everything was connected. It's like I could see the whole thing, one long chain of events that stretched all the way back before Tumblr. I felt like I could see everything that happened, and everything that is going to happen. It was like a perfect pattern, laid out in front of me. And I realised we're all part of it, and all trapped by it.

Joshua Cook

Whole of part 1 I thought they were talking about Zyzz.

.

Not familiar with the lord of the rings situation but sounds very similar to the snapewives

Gaz

Nice Chomsky chime in

Areti

Brace’s “but but but but” returns 🥰

elizabethonline

I’ve recently joined several liberal substack chats and I’m in there sharing infohazards that honestly defy imagination. Not even political stuff either

Hardcore Virgin

“This cult is an insane postmodern paganism routed through American mass media, paperback plastic IP, and turbocharged by this vulgar Capitalist / Utilitarian millenarian tech world-building ethos” Liz really works the index of the culture. Hot fire.

Brent

I have family in Media, PA. Definitely some concentration of wealth in that area.

Iskynsn

Why’s moxie spooky? Genuine question.

Michael S. Judge

I cannot stop thinking about how depressing and lame and broken and dumb this is, how these oversized children think in Universal Protocols for Optimizing Goodness but also think "I am Super Mario, I must understand ethical arbitrage for becoming Tanooki Suit Mario," how "rationalism" just keeps fucking getting worse, wherever it takes root, across the goddamn world, for 400 years, how it could be possible for an even semi-functional human being not to have a serious thought until they're like 24 and then conclude that they're going to Purge the Mainframe and Destroy All Vulcans by both going and not going to grad school, and how fuckin' scary it is to think of all the kids who are directionless and suggestible, in a pretty normal post-adolescent way that CAN be driven into outright schizophrenia, but who are now incentivized along every possible economic and social vector to live in the orbit of the million-trillion-dollars'-worth of "incubators" and "institutes" that not only encourage but mandate incipient schizophrenia as a corollary of ... some vapid horseshit that always comes down to asset bubbles, always did, always will, hier steht Es, Es kann nicht Anders, and most of all, how much Ziz looks like the spawn of Reverend Tuttle from the first TRUE DETECTIVE

AbeLinkin

This two part series broke my brain. Time to become a rationalist

Turlough Kelly

Hitting a gong and announcing "that was the gong" is not very Rational or Optimised to me. #infohazard

JV

incredible work from yc on the cop voice

Kristopher Kolish

A Tugboat Named Caleb is just 2020s A Streetcar Named Desire.

Michael S. Judge

Far as I can tell, Suri Dao is the only known name for that person (even if not the legal one), and the person I presume to be spelled Somulence L'Agencia is legally Alexander Jeffrey Leatham, the alarming-faced person in the 3rd picture down this article, whose prison record also includes a slate of other charges that don't seem related to killing Lind, including false imprisonment and "willful cruelty to a child" https://openvallejo.org/2025/01/28/man-accused-of-killing-witness-in-vallejo-could-face-death-penalty-da-says/

Lilian

Alexander is somnilence l’agencia 😭😭😭

Reece Coren

praying Brace got a second away from this Sunday night to see Kanye parade Biana Censori around the Grammys naked

kitty pavlova

i don't have a ton of empathy for these people but i can see how you can end up here. these "rationalist" types are all over atheist forums and stuff promoting their shit, and these places are usually frequented by a lot of annoying people but also a lot of kids (myself included back in the day) breaking with religious parents/communities with pretty much no offline social outlet. instead of coping with anything or moving on these rationalist types basically offer you a replacement religion. so you get people alienated from their offline world, drawn into a weird online community, and you mix being trans and/or abrasively mentally ill as another layer of social alienation you end up with fringe insane person shit because there is nowhere else to go but a freaky discord with the other freakiest people. mix startup culture/silicon valley (already a hitlerian death cult) and you get this

Jessica

not to backseat armchair psych your armchair psych eval of these people but this seems to be more of an OCD thing than autistic thing. the autism can influence it but someone who isnt austistic can form obessions and compulsions whenever. they might have hyperempathy from autism tho

Corey

The rationalists just want to be the Mentat computer people from Dune! Or even Spock from star trek or whatever Fear is illogical. We have to eliminate fear "because fear is the mind killer." Sci Fi drove these people crazy

Dick Waglin

I sometimes think of the world we might have if the Matrix was never created. I know sci-fi has existed for a long time but for some reason I feel that movie really stimulated these quasi-intellectuals.

Michael S. Judge

Respectfully, as someone with terrible OCD, I don't think that's the problem here, and I'm pretty sure hyperempathy is not a factor

Jessica

i was referring to the part about stepping on bugs in a field

Michael S. Judge

I think the right term is "she," and she's the one who got shot and didn't die, so maybe the face is "I just my shit rattled to the point of being shot" face

Henry

It depicts a world where being good at computer makes you akin to a god so it's not that surprising

Michael S. Judge

I'm not happy to be making this connection, but "Audere" is the infinitive form of the Latin verb "to dare," and it may be extending these assholes far too much credit to assume they picked it up from once-epidemic pseud proto-meme "Sapere Aude," the motto of Immanuel Kant, "Dare to Know." (Kant died at 79, allegedly a virgin.)

HackerBoiTellEm

Holy fucking shit. There's gonna be some Tiger King style doc series about this one day. This is fucking Wild

Si

[I'm 2 hours in and I haven't heard "Leverage" yet and I think this can help to understand this whole shitshow a bit better.] [Edit]: (Content Warning Information Hazard !!1!) Leverage is another crazy rabbit hole to go down, when researching this EA/Rationalist/AGI/MIRI/CFAR "insanity cluster", iI've spent some time on this during the last two days but I currently do not have the motivation and time to dive even deeper into this mess/craziness, so here you go: Leverage 1.0 was a project/research/ecosystem/social-experiment/psychological-experiment/cult run by Geoff Anders. To me it feels a lot like an MK Ultra inspired project and their goal was to find a way to produce many Elon Musks ("who is the most effective person in the world") and this would be the first step to safe the world or human kind or whatever. (*puke*) I feel that this precursor can better explain some of the craziness that is/was going on with EA/AI/MIRI/CFAR/Zizians/ect. Here some information sources: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/qYbqX3jX4JnTtHA5f/leverage-research-reviewing-the-basic-facts https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/kAgeY6nmpC6pzMbpM/to-what-extent-is-paradigm-academy-a-front-organization-for https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/XPwEptSSFRCnfHqFk/zoe-curzi-s-experience-with-leverage-research https://cathleensdiscoveries.com/livinglifewell/in-defense-of-attempting-hard-things#a91efc209146450ab2fc9a46f7d4d353 And another rabit hole opens up: If I understood this right, then this part of the story here sheds some more light on the sex abuse/assault issues the Zizians have been protesting (it seems that Brent had abusive interactions with Somni): https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sJEcNgqnSL2n35QWR/the-impossible-problem-of-due-process https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/9hacld/the_ballad_of_brent_dill/ https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/XPwEptSSFRCnfHqFk/zoe-curzi-s-experience-with-leverage-research#comment-dGqgrFSr9nkSo8Fus (I don't have the time to dig through all of this to make more specific claims, but it sheds some light on how stupid people can act that think they are super intelligent (based on IQ they are probably right, but..). This community seems to be pretty open/vulnerable for predators that exploit age gap relationships and power gap relationships.)

Michael Xin

Only God knows why capitalism seems to naturally recreate some version of Calvinism every century or so. Beyond the unfortunate Zizians, the EA people have effectively recreated a rationale for their disgusting, irrational drive for accumulation, much like John Calvin did during the birth of Capitalism.

K H

Why would you slander Invader Zim like that? Otherkin Zim enjoyers haven't killed anyone except maybe small animals through neglect.

buttface

Could have gone my entire life without knowing any of this and nothing would have been different

Jason Edmiston

Thank you, YC, for disavowing the use of Force Choke and Force Lightning. I'm glad we can be grown-ups about this.

K H

I have to doubt their IQ is high. They are just in an environment that is biased towards jobs and hobbies associated with being intelligent and their parents must have been moving heaven and earth to allow them to make it as far as they did.

Delivan

my heart weeps for these militant vegan trans women who never found punk music and got into dork shit instead :/

K H

They're just stupid. They're stupid and in a cult. Jains in India don't even breathe without a filter or walk on grass. I don't think they're all autistic, just religious, many possibilities why.

Robert Karchnyak

Honestly, people like this will grab at anything that appears to give their lives meaning. Hell if all they had to read was Shakespeare they’d develop a personality cult around Rosencrantz & Guildenstern. Growing up in the 90s I knew a fair share people who were precursors to this kind of mentality. They were computer-obsessed New Atheists with a love of Vampire the Masquerade. One of them yelled at me because I mispronounced Cthulhu.

Pug_luvr

I'm sorry, an hour into this, and do they ever address where the money for all this came from? Ziz is unemployed but bought a houseboat!?

Jessica

Im not absolving them of anything. Strict following of religious dogma can also be from OCD. This cult formed because of someone's development of an Obsession (the basilisk) and following through with Compulsions. These compulsions include making other people have this same Obsession and giving them the Compulsions. Knowing someone has an obsession with something and in a loop of compulsions that feed that obession is step one for breaking someone out of it. OCD is an aquired condition that can happen to anyone, though some are predisposed to it because of life experiences or biological factors.

K H

Nothing is before tumblr

Evan

None of these words are in the Bible

T

I do think of these children and young adults, for lack of a better way to think of them, as people who were left behind by todays world. the support that exists for neurodivergent or even potentially high/ low functioning individuals is virtually non existent, and the internet is full of people wanting to take advantage for whatever their pyramid scheme, insane ideology, or whatever else happens to be. we don’t have to look further than the kanye issue to see how these systems exist to exploit the ill. ziz seems like an exceptionally unwell individual who is searching for meaning and morality, and likely feeling outside of and alien to our culture, and the formal society writ large has failed them or written them off. instead they found meaning in these internet subcultures that appeal to and are made up of individuals like them, and they lead to these schizophrenic rabbit holes that are rewarding the behavior or entrenching it further

Chris R

I’m a little jealous of the wild shit these people got goin on.

Si

I think that you hit the nail on the head with that Kant connection.

HackerBoiTellEm

lol Brace saying "sex community" again 😂

Joseph Maurer

I'm pretty sure Brace and Liz missed Yung Chomsky's Zhang Beihai/Dark Forest throwaway line 2 hours in. I wanted you to know that someone appreciated it, Mr. Chomsky

bob

These kids were clearly *very* socially maladjusted and alienated. Seems like American society is generally heading down the path of being even more alienated, with tech/internet subcultures and media fetishism filling in the gap for growing numbers of people. It’s very hard to see so many people spiraling into deeper and deeper mental health holes, facilitated by tech that was originally billed as “bringing us together” in more and deeper ways.

Zane

“I wouldn’t worry about.” – Liz Wittgenstein Franczak

bob

Also - this type of shit seems to me to flow from the absence of Marxism and any kind of widespread class politics in America. Almost every answer to the questions and issues these kids (and god knows how many others) struggled with, “why are conditions declining,” “why do I feel so lonely and alienated,” “why is there so much social & economic stratification,” etc - these questions are answered firmly by Marxism and remedied with class struggle. We don’t have these things, thus the insanity spiral will continue into new and even more bizarre directions!

jrab

Other than the fact that he made signal? With NED/CIA funding? I’m pretty sure there’s a TA episode that talks about it

jrab

I keep thinking this too. Decision theory = OCD + autism. “What if we could mathematically and logically prove how to make every right decision so that the world is saved and not damned?!” Like chill tf out

EaZy E

Stephen Universe: it's a kids show on CN. Stephen is like a demigod or something, idk, he has special powers from a crystal in him. There are other crystal people with special powers and they fight bad guys. Sometimes Stephen's just doing kid stuff. But I think the other place is like a parallel universe or something. His dad is like Homer Simpson, but he's a middle aged flip-flops and sweatpants guy that has a mullet but it's bald on top. If you mixed Homer and the Comic Book Guy in the machine from the Fly and made him live in an RV.

Julian Gricksch

Sometimes I wish Liz and Brace would explain these philosophical theories like Rationalism and Decision Theory more accurately or precisely. As a philosophy teacher I do agree that they are completely wrong (dialectical materialism is the way), but I feel like the didn't accurately define either in this or in the previous episode. Ad in how Rationalism views sense perception as inferior to, or impossible as a source of knowledge unlike rational thought. Or how decision theory is about expressing people's needs in terms of preferences which can be given numerical values which rational agents will always strive to maximize. Obviously neoliberal bullshit, but sometimes being charitable from the outset is more interesting I feel

Michael S. Judge

It really worries me to think of the way that terribly aimless unsocialized people, and not even people anywhere near as extreme as these, could become a pretext for legal persecution of groups with which they share 1 common background element, especially trans people and people trying to live with serious mental illness. There's gonna be some "TRANS THRILL KILL KULT" press around this, if there isn't already, and some "LOONY LEFT: NOT ALL MEAT IS MURDER!" shit too (they must be left-wing, you see, because they started in California, they're tangentially connected to College Bullshit, and they're mostly not cis). I can't speak to the trans part, just that I know it is a fucking terrible time for trans people, but I live in low-level constant fear of what my medical status as a demonstrably crazy person could mean in a legal system that's going to be seeing a LOT of serious mental illness and isn't about to get any less sadistic – or "budget-conscious," let's say, especially with prison slave labor as the only growing sector of American manufacturing. It doesn't seem implausible to me that, e.g., getting arrested at a protest may soon lead to some kind of horrifying mandatory psych hold in the name of "public safety," and once you've got the crazies in the system, every social, political, and economic incentive in the United States says "Keep them there and turn a profit." Basically, as things inevitably get worse, everything I know about America suggests that America is gonna put a lot more people in fuckin' prison, and since there will always be enough brain-damaged adult children to fill out a couple crossover categories with people who are under direct attack (trans people, immigrants, Palestine supporters, environmentalists) or people who are frankly just annoying to have around (me and anybody else trying to live whatever version of "life" their wounded brains permit them), I'm real worried about the basic structural implement of the mandatory minimum oozing out and fully transforming from a *sentencing* mandate to an a priori mandate for entire categories of person – which, of course, it's already designed to be, and which it explicitly *would've* been if Biden and the Clintons had thought they could get away with it in 1994.

Michael S. Judge

I really kind of wish I hadn't been qualified to catch it

Roger Peet

This kind of thinking underpins much of how the Portland Anarchists see the world; lots of Star Wars and extrasocial mob justice based on the principle of being Peter Pan

Michael S. Judge

I do think THE MATRIX was specifically insanity-inducing, though, in that it's not just RPG shit or mythos shit or furry shit, it specifically posits YOU as the righteous flaw in an evil system that YOU will take down by being too good at evading the system's "traps," which in this context means "it's illegal to kill people" or "don't have a fully-equipped corpse-dissolving vat in a box truck which you don't even rent, much less own, but which you have nonetheless padlocked, over the mild protests of an 80-year-old man whom you inexplicably had to murder twice"

WHJ

He also defeats fascism by getting people to hug each other.

Reece Coren

I laughed so hard when Brace said dragon kin I had to rewind it three times and I’m still laughing

AI gore

Skibidi ohio ziz

Johan Gambolputty

Someone pls make a Don’t Tread On Me style flag with “don’t get your little basilisk inside me.”

John Waaben

A lot of the existential fear coming from the Ziz cult seems like sublimated climate anxiety, instead of dreading the cosmological demon god Petroleum and its colonization of humanity- it’s fear of a god created by human technology.

Cale

I do not give a fuck about any of this

Matt Jolo

Fuck there are MORE of them out there???

Matt Jolo

That's a very rationalist response.

nick b

Liz I'll show you how to play starcraft

Cale

I loled. Ok infohazard is a good bit to come out of this

Mike

this entire episode series is an infohazard and I'm afraid of the fact that other people are getting to hear about all of this

Sam

Its a solid childrens show with a Naruto-esque protagonist and a bunch of pro-lgbt subplots that were written more thoughtful than just “love wins”. If someone watched SU when they were 15, right now they could be 25-27- which is why I kinda can get why people would be confused at why grown ass adults still think fondly of the show; nostalgia is a big factor in what people consume!

Sam

I am geniunely stressed out about the possibility of this being made an example to make non binary and trans peoples’ lives worst…

Bobby Lawn

this story already took 5 hours to tell

James

REM is the shallowest least important kind of sleep

Free Lobotomy

The recap at the beginning was so perfect I loved it. Hopefully we will get more like it in the future

Brandon

how tf do you spell somulence

Robert Karchnyak

By the way does this count as an info hazard? There’s a disturbing murder case from 1995 that involved a Vampire obsessed killer named Caleb Fairley. He killed a mother & daughter in a children’s clothing store in suburban Philadelphia. They did bring up the whole Vampire culture of the 90s, talk about the name Caleb & end up in suburban Philly.

江戸 ねビル

One of the best two part series yet. This is absolutely insane. And really gives a good portrayal of the results of this kind of insane internet discord praxis.

Conor

Hey Zoul Zizter - Trans

Khemith

Rationalism is the end point of Protestantism the Western ideology of the "Omnipotence of the mind" and the general project of liberalism. People here make fun of it but we as liberal subjects generally believe in all the basic premises of rationalism. We see the future as technology replacing humanity as humans replaced god previously. Some people freak out ( California) or some just accept the destruction. (Sidenote: Brace says "normal people" alot but it's kinda false. Liberal subjects are not "normal people" but a schizo normalized into capitalism)

Khemith

Info hazard: I just lost my religion.

Hardcore Virgin

This is basically Crime and Punishment. Radkolnikov was kinda a rationalist dweeb.

Khemith

If you haven't noticed they will blame earthquakes and wildfires on trans. Its the new MAGA trick for staying in their bubble of spectacle and avoid reality.

Khemith

LOL climate anxiety is really just sublimated reaction to capitalism and the loss of god. Its' real but just look at climate people acting very millenialist.

Khemith

Its just liberalism on steroids. It's not some alien philosophy that came out of nowhere.

Khemith

Stephen Universe was also one of the best 2v2 partners in Multiversus (RIP that game)

Khemith

When you cannot defeat capitalism, you merge with it.

Khemith

Rich college people have some great sex.

Khemith

I agree with much of what you said but "normal people" "socialized people" are not the good guys here. The socialized liberal subject enables genocide, exploitation, etc If this is about just trying to help neurodivergent people, then it's a waste of time without looking at what the masses of "normal" people do. Trying to make neurodivergents like the snarky normal person who just watches Ted Lasso and has normal people sex is laughable.

Khemith

Calvinism is people in their heads and seeking god in their heads.

Khemith

Well said. They are cogs who fit well in their niche in capitalism.

Khemith

Calling something "quasi intellectual" just pretends that the college intellectualism is actually the real deal.

Khemith

Kanye bringing OFs to the Grammys to remind everyone that most art is just sex work.

Khemith

Calling them "oversized children" is attempt to make oneself seem like an adult when you're just as helpless in capitalism as they are. They are simply having more fun, while you soberly watch Democracy Now! and pretend to know more. What is the Zizzian murders compared to the middle class of America approving genocide in Gaza?

Khemith

She's just describing every American then. Zizzian are just the image of America shown back at us. Every Trueanon podcast is filtered through the exact same things.

Khemith

Homosexuality is one of the CIA's (and really all intelligence agencies) favorite ways to blackmail people. Tumblr must have been a goldmine.

Khemith

"lack of moral compass" compared to what? the normal American?

Louise

I got some crazy ass theories and am not "well-adjusted" but I don't like watching TV and I don't like playing D&D so I'm hoping I won't end up like this. Also, like, being a rationalist (as I recall from being laughed at by a grad student in philosophy) has nothing to do with reality. Maybe someone else mentioned that in the comments but there's over 300 comments as of my writing this comment.

Synney

how on earth did you read through ziz’s blog. that thing is a NIGHTMARE

Louise

Oh good I was wondering if someone would mention that Rationalism is like by definition disconnected from reality and not just in a these people are clearly insane kind of way. Being rational does not get enough of a bad rap.

Synney

reading ziz’s blog and i just got to the sentence “I had to ask my parents to pay rent for me again.” so there’s your answer lol

alex

The Caleb is currently rotting away on full view in the middle of Pilar point harbor in Half moon bay. It will likely be there for the next 70+ years till it disintegrates…

Lars

To certain sense, yes. But in Crime and Punishment, it is really obscured what system of thought is the true one and which one is the one he makes up to justify his actions. Maybe none of them are true and his crimes were a series of spur of the moment decisions. I think rationalism is a bit different in the sense that there is a much larger goal being chased

Lars

It’s really not though. All they have to say is that nb and trans people are in murder cults and like half of the population will have another reason to fear the woke left who is actually Evil and wanting to harm to hard working middle class Americans

snapplepeachtea

its very sad to imagine an old man trying to be perhaps the only nice landlord in existence by offering a space for people to do woodworking or something for $200 a month and then getting his throat slit by murderous freaks for it.

jrab

Godspeed, gumshoe; proceed with caution

jrab

Omg Rationalist Fleet = Sea Org

Domvan

Shoutout inland empire drop

jrab

Omg I was just thinking of how they say leverage over and over in Battlefield Earth and then I remembered that Leverage Research is the name of another Rationalist cult that got obsessed with demons and were basically worshipping their leader

Comrade Cat

You LOST me with that intro. I had to pause and take a moment to GO BACK over everything from the last episode. Then I hit THE BUTTON to start again.

sister love

info hazard 😭😭😭😭

A Loon

I don't think Venkat (Venkatesh Rao/Ribbonfarm) deserves to be mixed up in this mess. He's a funny and insightful old-school blogger (for a lib) who is also pretty self-deprecating and the opposite of a cult leader type. The Gervais Theory is a useful way to look at office politics and make sense of corporate communication. Though, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense unless you've seen The Office and work in an office for a large organization. Don't blame the White Album for the Manson Family.

elizabethonline

Really reminds me of the special type of mental hell that even mainstream Christianity, closely followed, puts you through. Trying to optimize every single thought and action must be paralyzing in much the same way as evaluating everything through a moral/Biblical lens

Laur Connor

hi friends. long time first time. surprised not to hear the phrase "schizotypal personality disorder" in this series. especially with all the magical & grandiose thinking and the disordered relationships. this is the pd that I don't hear people bring up very much. I'm only through 3 out of the 5 hours so maybe it's coming. but if you don't know about it, it's a fun one. not the same as schizophrenia. ok have fun kids & make good choices. love you xo

Nite Life Jesse

I saw Mental Tech and Rocco’s Basilisk open for The Black Dahlia Murder back in 2007 at the Showcase in Corona

Tranche Devereaux

Hahah - you must be new here. You havent met the gender donkey or heard about the “Gay Guy” shirt from election 2024? On the plus side, in this ep I felt Brace and Liz were actually more sensitive/respectful to the queer community than in the past. Maybe cuz this story involves some of the most disavowable offshoots of the GLBT community (sorry, otherkin and therian jump the shark).

Megan

feels like the brain sides thing is also vaguely adapted from/adjacent to DBT’s wise mind? with good being the analytical side, and bad being the emotional side?

Comrade Cat

Reminds me a lot of the stuff I used to see on forums for The Matrix and Deus Ex back in the early 2000s. The ability of the internet to bring together the biggest freaks possible transcends time and space.

Si

Another interesting experience/report (this time an experience with CFAR) that references the Ziz fallout/protest at CFRA: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/MnFqyPLqbiKL8nSR7/my-experience-at-and-around-miri-and-cfar-inspired-by-zoe Here a Business Insider article from 2015 talking to the the author of the above report (from when she was about to finish college and deciding against a job at Google for joining MIRI): https://www.businessinsider.com/life-at-stanford-in-2015-2015-4 ..these are clearly very "intelligent" (high IQ) people (math overachievers) with a main character syndrome, getting swept up in the AGI craze (and believing in it). This leads to a world view where they feel that only they can see the world clearly and they see themselves as smarter/better than us normies. (She luckily much more reasonable/sane/normal than the Zizians though.) For these "Rationalists" capitalism isn't the problem but the solution (infinite growth through tech and AI).

Hart

This has confused me more than Utah. I have to listen again.

Hardcore Virgin

Yes yes of course. I mean really just sort of like a philosophical murder. And the true idea in all his books at least his intention, is Christianity

Nash-to-mouth

(Hits “⬆️” button and then takes a big, self-satisfying whiff of own fart)

Lauren P

ok so this is insane

Lauren P

çaumulience

David Bond

The pyramid thing 😆😆

Si

Hahaha (relived laughter), Max went down exactly the same rabbit holes shortly before I did - check out his very insightful write up: https://maxread.substack.com/p/the-zizians-and-the-rationalist-death As a "farewell" one more of these crazy stories from the realm of MIRI and Leverage/Paradigm ..and this great Reddit comment: "I guess I didn't realize all of these people were in their 30s, from all their writing and opinions I'd assumed they were all like 19 year old college dropouts instead of people with neverland syndrome actively preying on teens" https://medium.com/@itai.ilyich/if-i-cant-have-me-no-one-can-kathleen-rebecca-forth-born-april-11-1980-31c49ed15121 https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/8sp5sz/followup_to_my_thread_on_kathy_forth_abuse_and/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210217064559/https://twitter.com/RuffleJax/status/1009625312844550146 https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/8sjxm9/serious_twitter_thread_by_someone_detailing_their/

Poppers

Maybe this is dumb, not sure, but doesn’t it seem like the stupid Basilisk thing is just a psychological shorthand for the concept of “the Other?” Like for the fact that a huge part of life’s contingency is the existence of other people and that we have to try to navigate that without ever truly being able to know what anyone else is thinking/how they will react to the things we do. And maybe it just breaks the brains of certain people who already struggle with that concept because of…the way their brains work (not trying to be mean, I swear)

Carp

Hate to out myself like this but given the crowd I'm almost certain calling stuff tech would be short for technique, not technology. It's slang used in online gaming for certain strategies, usually kind of non-standard gameplay you'll use to get a leg up in specific situations.

Liam

"Jailbreaking" as conceived here sounds eerily similar to the mindfucking process described by David Felton when discussing Manson and Mel Lyman.

Salex

Definitely not dumb or mean, I think that’s a great observation. Like many other Autistic people I have experienced this kinda of detachment from other people vibe, and I genuinely wondered if I were a sociopath as a younger person. Good way to know you’re not a sociopath is when you have empathy and pity for sociopaths. Anyway, I know I need to interact and trust others, but I’m still Autistic, and genuinely terrified by how unpredictable people can be. Combine that with a really intense insular culture and environment, and add in this rationalist world view and politics… I’m personally grateful I’m surrounded by good people to keep me level

Big Dylan

For the first quarter of this whole thing I was confused and thought zizz was zyzz, a popular figure from the aughts and teens on the /fit/ board of 4chan. He was like a proto weightlifting influencer but on 4chan, I think he ended oding on pre workout or something. I was so confused trying to figure out how that guy somehow influenced a modern crazy people movement

Gallo Altanero

Found the article, “Suz Strasburger—the cuddle Queen” runs it. And Reid Mihalko. I was getting paid 7 dollars an article I didn’t look into these people—the byline which the editor is only allowed to create not the writers “At ‘Cuddle Parties’ Pajama-Clad Revelers Gather to Rest, Relax and Rub—With Permission, Of Course. Gonna go prank this editor again I think she is at the Washington Post. This is the website: https://cuddleparty.com I only have the paper copy but we had to always get student opinions and some girl said, “it sounds kind of pathetic to me.” I forgot the icebreaker was you had crawl around a Moo like a cow and then jump into a pile. I am gonna need a therapist.

A. Karl

Yr wrong it wasn’t Mental Tech it was Info Hazard that opened that show

Alexander

For all you non gamers out there, League of Legends was modeled after the genre defining DotA classic which is a mod of Warcraft

Sean

same

Instantdumbass

Zizz sounds a little too close to Lizz and I’m investigating

eduard karpoev

He had an unknown heart condition. Abusing preworkout & if I remember right roids ended up killing him at like 22 or 23 years old

eduard karpoev

People think Rokko is gonna torture them forever, but aren't religious what so ever and don't believe in hell which is also that. Ig I understand a techbro thinking they're smarter then god or whatever, but like idk I'd be in more fear over a thing that has had 2 millennia of staying power over whether the GPUs are gonna be evil lol

taejo-pom

Yall stay watching the Adam Curtis doc All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace? Seems relevant af to this episode also I love Liz and brace

sappho.io

as a plural person i disavow these schitzo cultists

Queer and Pleasant Banger

Rokko is a dumb thought experiment because of the assumption that some all powerful AI god would be angry at you so much to torture you forever. Why? What would it care? I hate this it's so stupid even considering it at all. It only makes sense if you're really immature think the more intelligent you are makes you more and more of an asshole like your favorite epic smart guy character like Rick & Morty or whatever. These people are scared of AI cos they know they're probably the only people that could absolutely be replaced by shitty LLMs

Queer and Pleasant Banger

Everything from these people is just reinventing existing things- but worse. Bitcoin, it's like a bank- but worse. Ancap is just government but worse. And now theyre making religions and cults but worse and lame, they're just so fucking corny still.

Selecao9

Just saying, I would force choke somebody :)

Darren Kennedy

So they spent the pandemic naked with gasmasks in a container?

Joseph Boyle

Does anyone else find the Zizians to be a goofy update of the Cthulhu cultists in Lovecraft stories?

fortunatefeller

Does anyone know the episode # yung Chomsky mentioned about tiktok? I can't find where he mentions it and its driving me insane

Mikey

191

Food

Wait how do you turn off Siri

Marco Polo

I went on less wrong and it seems to be a fanfiction site for people who think they should be in Mensa?

Khemith

Mensa is fan fiction.

Khemith

No, they are an update to the American liberal subject.

Joseph Boyle

This is what Brace and Liz get for running a self-described liberal podcast now

Khemith

It's the religious need we all have. They are like the Calvinists; got stuck in their own heads and devised a wrathful god. The leftists who see the online mob as the wrathful god, evidenced in the hashtag movements. I'm scared of AI, but I don't grant it deific status.

Fiddypea

Brace's audible distaste when talking about my little pony and how he just pushes past it in an attempt to be professional made me lose it

buttface

True crime podcast

Timothy Dugan

They mentioned a guy named bill blank a few times in regards to the PA murder. I live outside Philly and went to school with a bill blank. Does anyone have the source that mentions that guys name in it ?

the empty suit

laying Info Hazards all over the battlefield during the Info Wars

Mr. Seymour

"One is dealing all the time with the most inarticulate people that I, in any case, have ever encountered, and I don’t hesitate to say the most inarticulate group of people we are ever likely to encounter, I or anybody else, for a very long time, at least in this century... Inarticulate and illiterate in a very particular and difficult to describe away, unlettered in the language (which may sound a little florid but there’s no other way that I can think of to say it,) totally unlettered in the language of the heart, totally distrustful of whatever cannot be touched, panic-stricken at the very first hint of pain -- a people determined to believe that they can make suffering obsolete, who don’t understand yet a very physiological fact: that the pain which signals a toothache is a pain which saves your life." -James Baldwin

I am become reply guy

The top of the pyramid is the smallest, most elite part, candy and ice cream etc. The base is healthy stuff you should eat all the time like bread and pasta.

darjan

But seriously what were they doing with that stretcher.?

Ryan

Sorry if I missed something but.. how come none of these fucking dorks who claim to be obsessed with saving the human race seem to care at all about climate change? Or is that all part of the /acc part?? Doesn’t it seem like they’ve been conveniently ignoring their best chance to be altruistic or effective in helping to ensure the long-term survival of the human race?

Anomalie

Excuse me, Invader Zim is VERY real lmao, but seriously, back when I was on tumblr, like a decade ago? a mutual of mine was always dunking on those less wrong dorks, and it's crazy to see what that shit turned into now, damn, the internet really does cause insanity

kitty pavlova

so i was able to speak to someone around the ziz circle (via anarchist veganism or something) who dm'd me mad because i made a joke about them getting owned by an 80 year old. it was pretty much what i expected, i turned them threatening me into them divulging their life story in like 3 messages.

kitty pavlova

they weren't personally involved with anyone but were in circles with audere. seemed very young and kinda stupid and impressionable. i think these people probably convince a lot of dumb teenagers on discord. mostly they seemed both nihilistic and idealistic if that makes any sense. they argued shooting a landlord and a bp officer were more praxis than most people do in their life (lol). some choice quotes are "i'm states away doing larps" and "im a sixth grade dropout and mentally retarded"

kitty pavlova

can't overstate that i can't get this person to shut up about their philosophy after trying to end the conversation several times once i realized they didn't know anything not mentioned here

Arben

probably somebody has said this but 417 comments is a lot. "Audere" is Latin for "to dare", like, as in "audacious". Absolutely insane

Degrassi Knoll

Don't want to sound prude...I'll try almost anything once; but I have to set boundaries. NO BOAT STUFF

Degrassi Knoll

Stick your finger into your headphone jack without warning

Leonora Calzogna

i fear that you may be proven right but i do not like it. also im afraid that now that i know of this future prison planet if i do not do everything in my power to build it then when it is complete i will be sentenced to it for eternity...ack!

Leonora Calzogna

Bringing my expertise as a trans women expert/scholar/lover: this is unfortunately a base archetype (taken to an extreme tangent) of our kind; too much computer, too little self-reflection, and to my chagrin very visible and vocal...many just losers (like the subjects of these episodes seem to be) but some "successful" in our society too... Whether it is felt or known by one it is very difficult and taxing to be one of our kind and it is extraordinarily difficult to come out of the blender (ie pre- and mid-transition) without any mental struggles at all - even the rare few that "make it" and are able to blend in with their target gender will have baggage, and many are not so lucky to get that far. But we must try, even if that goal is unreachable, and knowing that we will never really be "in" or safe. Any time this topic comes up in an episode I fear that there may be some slip-up or revealing that we are not seen as real and true by the esteemed hosts...so here is my plea to consider continuing to have some patience and understanding moving forward.

Coolsoy

You guys should be proud, one of your best set of episodes to date.

Daniel Chamberlain

Being tortured for all eternity in digital hell for punching my phone when it angers me.

Willmc

Does Brace have an otherkin?

Quinn Redman

One of those TA episodes you need to listen to twice to make sure you get the names of everyone right

Ethan Schulz

I know like 5 or 6 different calebs and I appreciate the extended tangent into whether its appropes for a tug boat name, and absolutely it is

Ethan Schulz

Vis-a-vis force powers: the first thing Luke does in ROTJ is choke the pig guard! He got the ziz mindset.

CC

Alert 🚨 Tacoma is NOT in King Co. It’s one county south (thank god)

GG Allin Dulles

Love these episodes about woke tumblr order of 9 angles

Henry

They do this research bc it's their job. You on the other hand should probably be spending time with friends and family

neopianbazaar

i never ever thought i would hear trueanon talk about my little pony kinnies this is awful

Reece Coren

southeast PA mentioned 🥳

dog heaven

have the zizians considered the other environmental impacts of their high tech lifestyles and overall project? what's the environmental opportunity cost of streaming all those episodes of steven universe? seems like it would impact at least a few ants

Noodlz

Thank you for letting them know the TRUTH

limousineeyelash

I feel horrible to admit this and it's no slander to this queen, but my dumb ass thought it was a young Sigourney Weaver

limousineeyelash

If you play this episode backwards at 1.5 speed Ziz & The Brother Love Band sing the answer to the Roko's Basilisk riddle

sarsar

One half of my brain Liz and one half brace I am plural

Ligma

Disturbing how much these guys remind me of my middle/highschool friend group. Maybe I should check on them....

Peter Annee

Where can I read about this stuff? I tried searching some of the exact phrases and even googling zizian cult Steven universe, StarCraft, etc I couldn’t find anything. Anyone have some good sources?

MLVF

Gotta say that the first ‘Gervais principle’ post - as stupid as it sounds - described my experiences within large corporate hierarchies better than any other framework. Atleast initially, his use of gervais and the office seems to be mostly a “hook” for readers. Though for sure the author went on to way over engineer the basic idea in following writings

lock

Pierce county

Kassie Carlson

Ok fine Liz I took off one accessory before leaving today..

Kassie Carlson

This episode was so packed with crazy information I had to rewind it like 7,000 times. Aka we are doomed.

Kassie Carlson

Also Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is the worst, most boring book ever.

Cleopatra

i’m right here :D

Peter Annee

Manic/ psychotic episodes can feel hyper rational, Ziz is somewhere in that meth to Nazi pipeline

J

I miss them calling SBF Sam Jailman Jailed

the empty suit

also still a little unnerved that brace makes these sweeping generalizations about DID/OSDD… idk, maybe read some actual papers on this? most systems who experience structured dissociation have endured repeated traumatic events over the course of their entire life

Alex Fulop

Thank you Yung Chomsky for keeping the facts straight via RTS games - doing the lords work

Christine

as soon as I heard steven universe mentioned I dreaded where this was going… why are we living in the Long 2015 Tumblr

Eli Jennings

The “tech” they use reminds me of Scientology’s “study tech” as a way of controlling their members

Joseph Reyes

Great episode for a Public Defender out of Solano County (Vallejo.) I did want to say that no attorney worth their shit would ever try to investigate if their client actually committed suicide. If it’s true. Great, case done. Not my job to prove that, “I believe this to be true judge, that’s all I got.” I don’t need to do anything.. That’s the prosecution’s job, if they want to proceed and don’t believe me, then investigate. I’m not gonna do that. BUT if it’s not true. I’m DEFINITELY not gonna follow up. I’d be implicating my client in a crime. Point is Sonoma Attorney did exactly what they were supposed to do.

Jack Antithesis

All of the Roko's Basilisk stuff sounds like really classic OCD obsessions. A more classic example would be "I have to have pure thoughts, or god might smite me" and then the sufferer constantly has intrusive thoughts about "sinful" things, murder, violence, sexual taboos, etc. Seems like the same shit "I have to have pure thoughts or this AI god will torture me for eternity in a techno-mind-prison". Seems like the kind of thing that would strongly affect the type of people who are hyper-obsessed with obtaining perfect rational thought. The harder you try to be perfectly rational the more you're gonna grapple with all kinds of "intrusive" thoughts and endless internal arguing.

Jack Antithesis

The part about worrying about killing bugs accidentally, and other obsessions over morality, are also really classic OCD traits. OCD of this type often comes hand in hand with neurodivergence too.

cam

just lost my new job for disseminating infohazards in the break room :/

Henry

He's referring to the ppl on tiktok who talk about having alters etc, if I remember correctly. He's not talking about people diagnosed with DID by professionals

Molly

look on twitter

Virgil918

They remind me of people i knew in college circa early 2000s, so these weirdnesses are not solely tumblr phenomena.

A. Karl

Jeff Walker from Carcass?

saaffie

I havent gone through all the comments but I wonder if any of this stuff is linked to monarch? There are people out there that talk about this - absolutely horrifying- of course Catherine O'Brien, JR Sweet, Daniel Reynolds and so many more. Big, big rabbit hole trueanon that should be explored.

saaffie

I think it's all something even darker

Xavier Zasher

“This cult is like an insane kind of postmodern new paganism routed through American mass media, paperback plastic IP and turbo charged by this sort of vulgar capitalist utilitarian millenarian tech world building ethos…”

Irene

Wait why is the photo Timothy B Schmidt from the band the Eagles

Clifton Whittaker

I feel like so many dark aspects of the internet were birthed from Warcraft 3 battlenet

aquatoll

Tech is just gamerspeak for technique/hobby specific strategies. Like a kick flip would be for skateboarding. They're bragging about doing neurological kick flips with brain processes

Jeremy

Which one is the abdl?

Sonya Bogdanova

Everyone’s a freak, it’s just some are more normal and then there’s this ‘cream of the crop’.

Evan Davies

Shout out the real Zyzz! We're all gonna make it brah!!

Rxk Lenderman

Not relevant but Tacoma is in pierce county not king county

Emily Elizabeth

Victim of one of the classic blunders-- never go in with boat people when tech is on the line.

Matelda

It's okay to have sympathy for murderers on many occasions. It's okay to feel!

Isaac

That would be Brace

Isaac

Oh wait did, you mean which one of the Zizians?

Weed

touch grass

Shiv

four days in? bummer

Shiv

thank you, bc I wanted to save this for posterity

Shiv

have you considered adding a b to your name and becoming a tugboat

Mantis Man

Honestly, being told that I'm not the savior of the world, is the most comforting thing I've ever heard.

The Master

Caleb is a tugboat, Patrick is a buoy, and Cameron is some sort of whale or dolphin

enter_krzysz

The Crystal Gems would never stab with a katana!

enter_krzysz

I will do so from now until eternity, too

enter_krzysz

Thanks so much for sharing <3

enter_krzysz

As if an all-powerful AI would waste ressources on torturing dead people from the past

enter_krzysz

Great 3rd tier (top of the pyramid) episode

enter_krzysz

Solid indeed. The songs slay

enter_krzysz

Maybe more like Data from TNG

enter_krzysz

LIIIEEESS BY HUMAN FLESH BEASTS! Praise the mini-moose

John Mitchell

The Zyzz group murders was the first COINTELPRO MK-ULTRA (ultra) radicalization and mind control program that was completely created and implemented by self-aware AI without human intervention or knowledge. This was the first of many. The machine war has begun.

K H

Don't listen. Abuse your mind with info hazard. Forsake your relationships.

Sam de Waele

Bobby Kotick is to blame for many things

Sam de Waele

He had a heart attack in a Sauna from a genetic heart thing if I remember correctly. I spent far too much time on /fit/, /sp/ and /tv/ growing up.

Sam de Waele

They should get Artosis on the show to talk about blizzard’s terroristic actions regarding skytoss strategies.

Killer Dan

I feel like I’ve met some weird otherkin folks in Washington State since moving here in late 2023 - in the tech community, comically and chronically online, strange names. They all remind me of that one Sonichu person Christine Weston Chandler…

Austin Mort

That’s who I pictured everytime they said the name

dick weiner

as a former maladjusted internet teen who was into otherkin stuff, a lot of it stems from 1. feeling different from your peers in a way that’s hard to describe for a lot of teenagers, and 2. being in very insular online communities that insist that you feel different because your soul is actually a wolf. people that are super into it (like many of the zizians) live in online echo chambers that only confirm these beliefs

Ben Silver

Shoutout Liz for the Garmonbozia reference!

acidtekno

Ohhh so that's why these LLMs keep hallucinating so much. They've been feeding them with that good shit from MK-ULTRA #ExpandYourMind #LSD #Psychonauts

John Mitchell

Like a monkey shot into space, a SpaceMonkey!!!

Neroli O'connor

This is so wild, is Wildbow associated with the rationalists these days?

Martin Kirakosyan

These days, not really, AFAIK. But Worm was highly acclaimed in r/rational sub and had a significant initial boost after Yudkowsky recommended it, as far as i remember.

David Zhou

Minor correction: Michelle Zajko grew up in Media, PA. Her parents lived in Chester Heights when they were murdered. Daniel Blank is from Berkeley, CA. Media is also where COINTENPRO got exposed in 1971.

Hypnosifl

That's definitely the origin of her name, if you search her blog there are numerous references to Worm and the Simurgh, and she wrote some long comments speculating on why Eliezer Yudkowsky didn't seem interested in talking to her at https://sinceriously.blog-mirror.com/punching-evil/#comment-10997 and https://sinceriously.blog-mirror.com/punching-evil/#comment-11000 where in the second one she imagines Yudkowsky saying "well you defined yourself as the simurgh, if that’s whata you’re saying, you’re saying I’d be stupid to talk to you"

Eclectic Beast

Criminal Defense attorney here in Delco, Media is wealthy but Chester Heights isn’t (though borders wealthier areas).

Olivia

We would love an update!

K Barlas

Wrt the brain hemisphere stuff, there is a little bit of truth to it in that there is a degree of specialisation on different sides of the brain in certain areas. Best example I know as a trained speech pathologist is language,mostly localised on the left, proved by location of injuries and resulting effects

Sydney Beal

“There is nothing glorious about a false hero narrative” goes so hard

Jenna Talia

As a merchant mariner gumshoe listening from the middle of the Atlantic, so grateful Brace didn’t wind up tug trash!!!

jrab

Tbh I’m also biased because he’s also just a shitty hipster who was terrible to his gf (my friend at the time), but the fact remains he created one of the greatest honeypots of our times

David Popoola

The lawyer did the job perfectly - they got their client off

Mitt Romney

Man I relate to Zizian's struggle a bit with the basilisk but as someone with OCD.