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Episode 210: War In Ukraine (Patreon)

Published:
2022-02-27 00:20:02
Edited:
2024-10-11 00:17:07
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Loose episode on Ukraine/Russia war, possibilities and realities of the conflict, assessing why we got it wrong, and what might happen next.

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Comments

Peacock Jive

US is fucking owning this war like holy shit. A former enemy killing itself fighting a current enemy. The American elite are winning epic style.

Lulu

As a European I really hate Liz's take on this. Sorry. Love her but this is a terrible take.

Mao Zedong Superstar

Came back to this years later and I feel the exact same way. Super reactionary and completely out of her depth on this topic.

Josh

My perspective on this may be a little interesting. I started paying attention to politics a few months after all of this happened, and I have heard countless takes since then about how the left got it wrong. So I’ve known for years that many people on the left fucked up this prediction, but I’ve only recently started listening to TrueAnon. I’ve listened from the beginning, and I actually understand way more about why the left’s take was wrong. Very clearly, it is Russiagate. I’d forgotten about that for the most part, but TrueAnon touched a lot on that on previous episodes. Because of that, at this point in time, I think the left saw Russia similar to China in that western media openly lies about them as propaganda. If the New York Times told me today that China is going to invade Taiwan, I wouldn’t even take it seriously enough to try to refute it. The left took (and still takes) the beating on this, but it’s another fucking Chicken Little moment. Of course western media was right when one out of a hundred of their propagandad, warmongering projects actually works.

hater

FIRST

hater

FINALLY

Conner

Слава Україні

Sparrow

Oppose USA first and Russia second in this. Solidarity with the working people of all countries. Theirs is the blood that is spilled, and frivolously.

Svid

I wish we lived in a socialist country where everyone got a chance to be the first comment on their favorite pod!! 😭😭😭

BruceInAdelaide

This war was launched in 2014 by the US, and their assets, NATO and the UkroNAZIS etc. The Nazi/Bandera militias were integrated into the Ukrainian army. Genocidal pogroms against the Russian speaking majority were carried out. 8000 people in the 90% ethnic Russian Donets and Luhansk regions were killed, largely by shelling.

Sparrow

No war but class war

ChuckleberryFinn

propa to liz to swerving into nuclear war concern trolling shes really got her finger on the pulse

BruceInAdelaide

We are looking at NATO as splintering and failing. Post The monumental defeat in Afghanistan, We are seeing cascading and tumbling serial imperial collapses. The recent smack up of the $3billion dollar not quite "stealth" enough Sea Wolf Class, USS Connecticut, causing it to surface and leave Chinese controlled waters, is symptomatic of the military industrial complex being so corrupt that its products are dysfunctional and over priced, like the F35. This is what imperial collapse looks like.

TrueAnonPod

I don’t think it will, I think this will probably shore up NATO

BruceInAdelaide

Politically it will force NATO to scream and whine, but no one can rely on them to back their rhetoric. They are no longer the global Uni Power. They are in global retreat. This will be tangible in how anti imperial forces in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Venezuela, Nicaragua, China, DPRK and many, many others will interpret NATO's impotence.

K

Fossil fuels are the reason industrialized economies have food. Tractors and combines rely on them. And they fuel the Haber process of fertilizer production. Ukraine is literally the breadbasket of Europe in the sense that many Europeans would starve without alternatives should the energy/fertilizer/wheat exports be stopped completely.

meandmypalz

Whatever drugs you've been taking must be nuts!

Michał Smoleń

“Denazification” of Ukraine means killing current president and then prosecuting anyone they don’t like from nazis to liberals to trade unionists, installing regime like Belarus. But in general, that episode is just so sad. It’s hard to overstate how completely out of touch you sound from the perspective of central Eastern European leftists. The same people that fight against local right wing governments, are physically assaulted by local nazi organizations, have absolutely clear perspective of what’s going on in Ukraine - poor corrupt country being brutally reconquered by global nuclear power. But you would never ask or hear us. Brace at least has some humanistic instincts, like basic empathy, much better takes, doesn’t push further hard predictions, maybe because he had been abroad, maybe he understands his limits, while Liz is totally poisoned by US-centrism, overconfident, totally denies any agency by Eastern European non-Russian people.

Dan Greene

It's a huge gift to NATO, instantly restoring their credibility and relevance

jules

ah, taking the chinese line

Lauren Cabral

20:00 uhhhhh no it's not. name one fucking way in which the U.S. is "10 years behind" Russia.

kenton

oh heyy

Carson H

Just started listening, but Liz's pointed refusal (so far) to reflect on the implications of having badly misjudged this historical conjuncture is kind of incredible. You were dead wrong just admit it lol. It's not some kind of moral failing.

Michał Smoleń

Ukrainians, of course. Polish. Baltics. You could also find someone from Belarus or Russia. And you can ask them questions like: “are Ukrainians commonly nazis?” or “what is left, right wing and far right reception of this conflict in your countries” (spoiler: for example in Poland only far right supports Putin talking point that are repeated by Liz and others) or “if you know US atrocities, how can you accept NATO membership” (spoiler: because weak countries seek alliances with distant superpowers when the feel threatened by superpowers in their region). In general: you should ask Palestinians about Palestine. You should ask Iraqis about War in Iraq. And you should ask Ukrainians about war in Ukraine, and you could ask Polish left about navigating multipolar world.

Evan Scott

I've heard Liz say this a couple times I think and I'm really not sure where it comes from. Russian SAM capabilities are the best in the world and their jets and helicopters are good but Russian infantry seems to be pretty pathetically equipped compared to American soldiers. I don't think I've seen a single optical sight on a Russian AK in Ukraine, even for better equipped soldiers with AK12s and modern Ratnik stuff, and absolutely no IR/ night vision gear, both of which have been really standard for US infantry for at least like 10 years and in tandem give like a generational advantage

SF

nah she's right, you can admit you called something wrong without having to publicly self-flagellate about it.

D

At 19:45 what does Liz mean when she says the Russian military tech is 10 years ahead of the Americans? That's a weird, broad statement. What does it mean to even say one military is "behind" another? Night vision? Radar? Space lasers? Liz has beat this drum a lot in the last year and I would like to see an episode that digs into it beyond "F-35 LOL" because military superiority is far more than one diseased cost-center. NATO is evil, this war is insane, the US has abdicated it's duty to ameliorate an escalation it's responsible for, we need to dismantle the military industrial complex, etc etc. I believe all these things, but I'm not smoking whatever Liz is smoking on that point.

Carson H

I'm not asking for self-flagellation, I'm suggesting self-reflection in the interests of clarity. If you get something majorly wrong in your capacity as a political commentator, you should try to take stock of what you misjudged, which will almost certainly have broader implications for your outlook as a political commentator. Like I said, it's not a moral failing. Even so, cope cometh before the fall into contrarian crankery.

Carson H

And look, now she's talking nonsense about how Russian military tech is a "decade ahead" of America's. Liz stop! We love you.

Evan Scott

Russian infantry, at least what's been deployed so far and I don't know if one should assume that what's been held back is equipped and trained like the Russian special forces units in Syria, seems barely better equipped than the civilians in Kiev they're handing out 60 year old AKMs to.

Len

Liz on that RT pundit trajectory

Carson H

Stunned at the level of cope on display here. Are we really supposed to believe that the Russian military's underperformance is Putin playing 5D chess? You sound like an actual crazy person. Please take a break from the internet.

Vaushisped

We are now in the age of multipolarity as Infrared would say

D

What do you mean "implications"? I don't agree with her on a lot of points on this matter, but I don't think there is really any material consequences to either of our opinions, nor yours. So I'm not sure what you mean.

John McElroy

The best voices on this subject are: 1. Dr John Mearsheimer 2. Scott Ritter (on Dan Cohen’s podcast) 3. Aaron Mate/Max Blumenthal 4. Abby Martin w/ Brian Becker -Empire Files 5. Caitlin Johnstone substack 6. Naked Capitalisms coverage 7. Mark Ames & War Nerds Good luck all - there is so much propaganda out there but if you use Michael Parenti’s quote here, you’ll figure it out “US foreign policy amounts to the use of fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be savings democracy from communism.” Applying this - We have a US backed coup installing and supporting neo nazi bandera-ite leadership to preserve (US unipolarity) while claiming they are bringing democracy (weapons) to Ukraine (a failed state for 70 years) from the big bad ruskies. And the US has been playing this tune for 85 years (see the Dulles brothers). American imperialism laid bare for all to see, not really giving a fuck about the people of Ukraine (but using them to sell weapons to, to bully the EU out of the Russian sphere, and to mire the ruskies into another quagmire). Sick stuff

meandmypalz

The tech is not. They spent a lot of money on limited production of fancy kit but have not or cannot afford to equip the majority of their forces. It's why you see none of their "cutting edge" equipment being deployed. I've seen T72A's and T72Av's being deployed from the units of the Eastern military districts. They are from the late 1970s early 1980s.

BruceInAdelaide

John McElroy has cited excellent sources!

Evan Scott

I think a major take away from this, why no one saw it coming and why it doesn't seem to make sense now, is that Putin is potentially way less savvy and competent than he has been in the past and is potentially facing internal erosion of support, necessitating in his mind this massive invasion as a sort of hail mary. I guess the foreign policy establishment has been pushing kind of a similar line but it also just seems to fit the facts better at this point

meandmypalz

Russian medium range air defense has a great record of shooting down civilian airliners.

Evan Scott

Also the Russian military made up of 19 year old conscripts with no training or morale fighting a war they don't want to might just not be effective

Evan Scott

Mark in the RWN invasion update noted that this seems to be a much different Putin than the one he remembers

Bulldyke

Y’all sound like idiots especially Liz.

Carson H

I don't pretend to be an expert on any of this stuff so I won't say much, but presumably if you've misjudged Putin's game plan, priorities, mindset, etc., then you've misjudged how Russia's political authorities are willing to act. If you've misjudged that, then presumably you've also misjudged the broader trajectory of political authority, alliances, etc. throughout Europe and indeed much of the world. The failure to reflect on these things will lead to an ever more distorted perception of reality over time. Everyone makes mistakes but reflective people make the most of them.

Seth Aronovich

@meandmypalz pissrael will never be a country

Seth Aronovich

lol if you're a braindead american with shit eyesight i guess

Seth Aronovich

lol underestimating the perfidy of the filthy genocidal zionist Zelensky is not any sort of failing

Seth Aronovich

lol they literally stopped because the filthy zionist zelensky lied about wanting to negotiate. Putin is guilty- of being too trusting of genocidal zionists

meandmypalz

give nukes to iran I ain't dying for jerusalem. you have conflated my anti putin stance with something I have never supported. typical tankie.

Carson H

Log off you fuckin weirdo.

SF

Thanks for the episode guys. Liz mentioned that Varoufakis is perhaps the only western politician arguing for a ceasefire and diplomacy. I'm fairly sure we can add Jeremy Corbyn to that list. He is now being demonized even more than ever in the UK before because he's been highly critical of NATO's role in this (though of course he has been highly critical of Putin also) and is calling for peaceful resolution. Sadly like Varoufakis he is of course powerless, and his successor as Labour leader Keir Starmer is a psychotic right-wing Blairite who just the other week penned an ode to NATO in the Guardian that is genuinely one of the most terrifying British political documents of my lifetime.

John McElroy

You have to know the history here. Putin went in because of the nuclear threat stated by Zelensky 2 days ago and because of Donbas region (Donetsk and Luhansk regions) murders of Ukrainians in the east by Nazi identifying (Azon Corps) nationalists. There is no strategic benefit for Putin to stay beyond sorting out those two problems in their back yard. Furthermore, the US has known for 14 years that Russia will not allow a NATO country on their border - they already accepted/swallowed in 2008 NATO inclusion of several Eastern European countries like Poland, Romania etc - but Georgia and Ukraine they could not swallow - they’ve made it clear and have held off for 8 years - patience that the US would not have had - and then they watch Russiagate, Blinken and Nuland, along with 2014 color revolution - and they see the US will not change. And ordinary non-Nazi Ukrainians will be the ones to suffer - so Putin is reacting to the West’s encroachment in ways that do not remind his people of others who had trusted the west too much (Yeltsin, Gorbachev, and Stalin)

Andy

THANK GOD I know what white Californians think about Russia/Ukraine

John McElroy

Again, Dr John Mearsheimer is the best resource - YouTube.com/watch?v=Nbj1AR_aAcE

Alan

Wow didn't know Liz was such a Putin simp

Evan Scott

I think poorly trained russian conscripts would probably benefit the most from not relying on iron sights, actually. I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that conscription/high school round 2 produces crack shots

Andy

Wow Liz with “people shouldn’t be surprised” that Putin “enforced his red line.” What the actual fuck girl? Get a grip!

Andy

“This could end right now if the United States stepped in to negotiate a cease fire.” How about, this could end right now if Russia stopped invading Ukraine?

meandmypalz

They've got this weird system where they have contract soldiers, but they also still conscript. Right now the results of that seem pretty crappy. Also I think the stuff they've been handing out in Kyiv is a little more recent, I've seen some AK74M that look pretty new. They also look like they have Bulgarian furniture on them, maybe they're from Arsenal Bulgaria. That seems odd since Ukraine has a large arms industry. Maybe they were sent recently.

Michał Smoleń

Nuclear threat by Ukraine, LOL. Russia is having it nuclear arsenal pointed at Europe at all times. Zelensky said - and he was right - that Ukraine a couple of regimes ago agreed to give up nuclear weapons and now is getting fucked. And that is true that countries with nukes just are not invaded. But Ukraine has no nuclear weapons, no way to get them, even eastern NATO states don’t have them and are not working to get them. That absolutely preposterous accusation.

John McElroy

Alan, any honest assessment of what is happening here does not involve looking at individuals or individual personalities - this war is a US construct meant to mire Russia in another Afghanistan (brought about by covert US forces which now are overt in our state department). We want to sell our weapons, we want Germany and our Allies to be detach from Russian LNG and we want to put pressure on Russia while we simultaneously battle the China-Russia multipolar world order - no one is a simp here

meandmypalz

It would make sense, since I've also seen photos of single use anti tank rounds also produced in Bulgaria. Fun!

SwagMasta420

You're right, it's hilarious that people are trying to clown on Russia for "old equipment", you know, the "old equipment" that has put Russian troops knocking at the gates to Kiev in under 72 hours. Why would Russia use all their new and expensive shit when their restraint and use of older systems has proven to be 100% effective? It's an insane level of copium from people who probably put the Ukraine flag in their twitter display yesterday and don't know a goddamn thing.

Todd

I’m with Brace - utterly confused by this.

Andy

Lol “us and eu happy to let Ukrainian people die” because what??? They won’t insert themselves into the middle of the conflict between Russia/Ukraine? Which is somehow their responsibility because allowing for the expansion of nato justifies the invasion of a country/murder of civilians. Sure sure sure. Only 6 min in and I have gagged like 20 times. Y’all carrying .

John S

There's some serious Reston, VA energy in these comments.

SwagMasta420

Conscripts in the Russian military cannot be sent to the front unless they sign a contract. These troops are all contracts or volunteers. Find some other reason to pretend the Russians aren't effective, lmao

Michał Smoleń

Brace is taking it much better, he considers the fact that he not only had wrong facts, but also didn’t understand how different actors (esp. Putin) think. Liz - nothing of sorts.

John McElroy

Hey douche rocket 🚀- Zelensky threatened the Russians 2 days with a nuclear attack (100 miles from Moscow) - probably with the permission and encouragement of the US - if you know the slightest amount about Russian history - which it appears you do not (except from the Mighty Wurlitzer of the US Media) , you’d know that we have broken about 3 or 4 set in stone agreements with Russia - dating as far back as to when they were the USSR. Proud American like George Kennan or Dean Acheson - red white and blue cold warriors advised against reneging on the US promises not to push NATO to Russia’s borders. Now if Russia set up shop in Mexico City - we’d have a shitshow tantrum over the Monroe Doctrine - so put a sock in it and quit being that stupid American who thinks they know “things” but refuses to read the most basic parts about this conflict

Evan Scott

I don't think at all that Putin went in because of a 'nuclear threat' (I think brace pretty succinctly clarified that), but yes, I understand the Russian justifications for wanting the current Ukrainian regime out etc. etc. but this reeks of a desperate move made to shore up support, showing himself to be a decisive and effective leader and still valuable, etc. but it seems that the capabilities of the Russian military were over-estimated (not unlike in Georgia in 2008 which all things considered went pretty poorly despite being able to win by sheer mass), which is now undoubtedly humiliating a lot of very powerful people in the Russian military and delegitimizing Putin in Russia, among people who matter most dangerously, and perhaps also the world, as this seems pretty against Xi/China's outlook of promoting stability. Just from a strategic viewpoint and not getting into what's justified this just seems like Putin really overplayed his hand (though it was probably the only chance he had left anyway) and is going to end up with him out of power

Evan Scott

alright well they're currently sucking at invading ukraine whatever the reason is. i don't really buy liz's line on a hyper-effective russian military being hobbled by restraint, there's no historical precedent for the regular Russian or late Soviet armies being particularly competent since afghanistan, special forces and chechens notwithstanding. The failure of the VVS to decapitate Ukrainian air capabilities in the first days should be a pretty clear indication of that.

John McElroy

Evan - your understanding of this seems to be shaped by the media in the last two weeks - and it also seems almost precisely aligned with US talking points - so until you have an actual thought of your own or even some modest understanding of Russian history here - I’ll just assume you fall into the same brain dead US media propaganda blob as so many have ever since the Dulles Brothers

meandmypalz

why havent russian units in the east and south managed to get to kyiv yet? vatnik cope. No suppressed AF, not suppressed AD. Ukrainian's still have a fair amount of freedom of movement while the Russian's have long and vulnerable lines of communication. I also don't know how impressed I should be that there are any russian army units near kyiv, they drove in from shithole belarus.

Andy

Stop behaving as if these two nations aren’t parts of two halves of the same imperialist coin. It’s the same corporations, it’s the same banks, it’s the same interwoven power systems and schemes. The issue isn’t that they’re wrong, it’s the pass that is consistently given to Russian behavior in service of the vitriol to “western” actions. That vitriol is totally merited, but it’s not strengthened by emboldening anyone and everyone working to dismantle it, and Putin’s invasion of Ukraine should be a wake up call for that.

John McElroy

Meandmypalz is clearly a troll - not offering much information but wanting to sell a point of view rather than referring to an honest account of history

meandmypalz

I've offered plenty of information. I'm sorry it has shaken you up.

Evan Scott

They're mostly handing out AK74s that are holdovers from the Soviet period, AFAIK they have no domestic manufacturing capability on that front, maybe they bought some more from the Russians when Russia standardized to the 74M starting in the late 90s. That furniture is standard soviet production that started in the 80s, not all polyamide 74s are Ms and the Bulgarian stuff is just contract produced Soviet designs on Soviet equipment, which is why Bulgarian rifles are prized second only to domestic Soviet production in the US

John McElroy

Yeah I’ve seen it, more like Operation Mockingbird 2.0 rather “information”. Try your Hearsheimer and maybe you’ll begin to understand this conflict - certainty, and projecting onto Russia Cold War motives in the guise of US empire is not credible.

Andy

I would also add that it’s the nonchalance with which this podcast has consistently handled victims of war, prejudice/violence against minorities, how many times the white left has been willing to sell out the vulnerable in service of disruption. It’s so below the caliber of the work that gets done on this podcast, which is often some of the best. But when it’s bad it’s really fucking bad. Sorry not sorry.

meandmypalz

I've got a few Bulgarians myself so thats why I noticed. They're very nice rifles.

Michał Smoleń

In general it’s comical to see Brace saying just basic cautious things in the good direction and then be immediately bullied by Liz into accepting some contrarian galaxy brain takes that mix decent materialistic analysis with the stupidest RT talking points that are believed only by European far right and anglophone left

TheRhinehart86

Definitely your guys' dumbest take yet. Kudos for acknowledging you were wrong, but trying to run defence for Putin now is just BS. Imperialism is bad whoever does it, did it occur to you that the reason all those countries clamoured to get into NATO was because Russia has for centuries occupied them and even committed genocide on them? Like seriously guys, I knew you were going the wrong way as soon as you had Aaron Mate on, a guy who is widely known to basically be a mouthpiece of the Russian state, but whenever anyone points that out it's all "oh Russia Russia Russia, go back to Langley".

meandmypalz

they lied. they simply lied and sent conscripts in. why carry water for a criminal regime?

meandmypalz

it's really unfortunate. I love the work theyve done on other topics but this is clearly beyond them. I don't know why they'd hold onto these absolutely scuffed views in regards to this topic.

John McElroy

It’s not just RT Michael. Academics, weapons inspectors, foreign relations experts plus US historians - but if you want to delude yourself (using the same tropes used by the NYT, WashPo, Time, Newsweek, CNN or MSNBC than be my guest. But then you miss out on the entire history of post USSR Russia, American destruction of the Russian economy, the Clinton-Yeltsin years and then the entire rise of Putin emanating from the massive fuckups by Harvard economists and US businessmen in the early 1990s all the way to expanding NATO in 1999 and 2008 to the Russiagate cover story because Hillary Clinton was a horrible candidate and could not take responsibility for fucking up this country at home (Losing to Trump) and abroad (Honduras, Clinton foundation graft)- it’s a shitshow but we never stop blaming Russia for our own failings (like the need for NATO

TangiePower

I think Liz over estimates the Russian military a bit and I more agree with Brace’s overall skepticism of their capabilities. No doubt they have a bunch of heavy weapons they can yet unleash. But if they develop back end logistical problems, or they get quagmired here, they’re gonna be in huge trouble no matter how much shit they can blow up.

Andy

It’s because they think their audience is too stupid to hate multiple styles of governance simultaneously

Entropizzazz

The amount of cope is hilarious. Props to Brace for being open minded and saying “yeah I misjudged the situation”. Liz is just utterly out to lunch here.

Entropizzazz

Also… it’s fine to be wrong! Shitloads of people were! But you’d think making a monumental error like this would at least give you pause and say “huh maybe my other assumptions here don’t add up”.

BryceSprungstein

I thought Putin looked fat in speech about the war. This is not the man who was going to shirtlessly beat back the west

Entropizzazz

“People shouldn’t be surprised even though I obviously was seeing as I’ve spent the last few weeks laughing at the possibility this could happen.” I mean have some self respect Liz, geez.

Andy

Ok had to stop. It’s really remarkable how much Liz sounds like Samantha Power in this ep, wrapping all of this in that neoliberal preemptive preventative warfare bullshit. It’s totally cool if you guys aren’t anti-war, that’s a real position. But literally one of the first rules of being anti-war is being anti-war.

Entropizzazz

The EU is a net exporter of food. Ukraine makes up about 4.9% of their imports.

mat 1

Wait is this a vatnik podcast lol I mean seriously America bad =/= Russia good

Entropizzazz

Russia has no agency. They are poor innocent retards entirely manipulated into literally invading another country and can never be held responsible for anything. To deny this is to be a Langley stooge and NATO shill who hates Palestine.

Michał Smoleń

Meandmypalz - At the end of the day, those are just two American podcasters holding typical American far left view of international relations. Nothing shocking, just sad, perhaps sitting in the heart of empire does something like that to one’s head, especially if you have contrarian character

meandmypalz

its especially funny/depressing because there are guys who went to syria to fight with the kurds fighting with the Ukrainians right now. Brace stand up for your boys!

Gordon Schmidt

I can't believe Joe Biden made Russia invade Ukraine. First they force every former Eastern Bloc nation into NATO against their will, then they use Nazis to overthrow heroic oligarch Yanukovych, now this. Thank god someone has stepped in to sort these people out- and he's not afraid to hit Ukrainian targets hiding behind civilians, no matter how many kindergartens have to burn

TPD

TFW Liz thinks Russia is ok starting wars because they are scared of NATO. Putin apologism on the left needs to die. Such a bad take.

caroline

guys i think we just lost liz to her psyop arc

NYCM&AHole

Embrace the nuclear fireball, Liz

AKorgar

I do love the twitter kiddies who picked up words like "vatnik" and "tankie" from reading reddit posts and then like to throw them around while huffing and puffing like an overly dramatic teen to avoid having to make any kind of material analysis

Titivilis

It's the sort of thing where I kind of wonder whether Putin's doctor didn't tell him a month ago that it's actually a tumor, not a third testicle, and Putin just wants to stick it in the West's eye before he peaces out.

AKorgar

You know, anyone who's been in the left for long enough will know that there are guys in Ukraine whom we could talk to who you would call fake leftists, and who would call YOU fake leftists in turn, so simply claiming to be the Lorax who speaks for Ukraine is not actually enough in and of itself.

AKorgar

The idea that people who are directly enmeshed in a situation won't necessarily have their own biased take on a thing is just stupid. Lived experience is not as valuable as verifiable information, and if you can't find verifiable information, it's preferable to simply say you don't know.

Brendan

It's astonishing, she got like everything wrong in this episode.

meandmypalz

what material analysis have you made of this schizo posting? You have to go back.

AKorgar

You're expecting them to do the reading brother lol

Jack & Maria

Really weird to hear Brace repeatedly roll over here in response to Liz’s incredibly idiotic takes

BryceSprungstein

"who is widely known to basically be a mouthpiece of the Russian state" This is a wild exggeration, if not just outright lie.

Arthur Bray-Simons

Here's the 🔥 take: Putin knowingly provoked the US into sanction over-reach to precipitate a Michael Hudson style De-Dollarization. He's a Bin Laden-ist and Kiev is his WTC.

Andrew Moll

I ain’t reading all that

NigelBOpinion

Solid episode, I'm very grateful to you both for discussing this issue intelligently and humanely. Thanks especially to Liz for her clarity and moral seriousness. Fuck the haters.

J P 3

Varoufakis noted a couple years ago that we are probably going to in a crisis period that lasts for about 50 years, which sounds about right, provided we avoid a nuclear war. I'm not so sure right now, however, that simply saying that Ukraine will be out of NATO is going to be sufficient for Putin. He clearly spent years planning this action -- probably going back to 2014. He's committed to an absolutely insane course which appears to involve installing a puppet regime and taking about two-thirds of the country a kind of indemnity.

J P 3

Mearsheimer's U of Chicago talk from 2015 is great context, however, even he didn't entertain the possibility that Putin would go for this kind of a military invasion (because doing so would be so incredibly reckless).

csbrennan31

Yeah I found Liz to be a bit obnoxious in this episode and Brace much more honest and reasonable. It's not about self-flagellation its just about intellectual honesty. She ended the last episode basically laughing at the idea and mocking people for believing Putin would do exactly what he's doing right now, and then she disingenuously starts this episode by framing that as her "not wanting to believe" this would happen and refusing to take ownership over what she actually said. This is a major platform you kind of have a responsibility to be honest and examine what led you to the wrong conclusion, not be revisionist about what you said in an earlier episode.

Seth Aronovich

America is the most evil empire that has ever existed. Humanity will not rest until we have conclusively solved the American problem.

Seth Aronovich

Noone cares about your insane pro-Russian genocide takes, zionist.

Seth Aronovich

You are subhuman, NATO dog. Why don't you just admit you love to drink the blood of Palestinian babies?

Seth Aronovich

Scott Ritter is always worth listening to. The NATO shills will continue to oppose him, because they are beasts without souls.

TPD

Not sure if you’re trolling, but this kind of exaggerated anti-American fanaticism is why the left is so ineffectual.

Seth Aronovich

Cry more, neolib. Humans will piss on your grave.

Seth Aronovich

@meandmypalz Noone cares about your barks, dog. Bark all you like about 'Snake Island', or the 'Ghost' from DCS, or 'civilian casualties', humanity will deal with you. Palestine will be free from the Jordan to the sea.

AKorgar

Show some fucking respect, if you think Liz is wrong, say so, don't stoop to calling the woman on the pod an idiot

Jack & Maria

didnt expect idpol in these comments

Seth Aronovich

lol you should say Puthitler has one ball next! SO FIERECE

AKorgar

Buddy there are a lot of reasons why the left is ineffectual, it's not just your pet reasons

TPD

This is one of many reasons.

AKorgar

As far as Putin apologism, it's not fucking Putin apologism to recognize that actions have consequences and the US had every reason to know that making these inroads into Ukraine like they did in the Obama years would have consequences, this is not new shit, this is Balance of Power politics, people have understood how this works since the 19th century. The US deliberately sought out a conflict with Russia. Russia is responding like most regional powers who want to maintain local hegemony would. We want accountability with NATO, we don't want any more warmongering. That doesn't mean we sympathize with Putin, ffs

AKorgar

To be honest I don't see how you're going to complain about anti-American fanaticism when the US is still the sole remaining superpower, and how it's committed so many atrocities during the War On Terror and has so far completely gotten away with it. Like, if you think it's Putin apologism to say that poking Russia in the eye will make Russia mad, then what is it to act like the US is a normal country and not the dominant world empire of this era of human history, to which all anti-imperialists must be opposed?

AKorgar

Aronovich is a weirdo and I really don't like how he referred to Zelensky as a "zionist" but he's not wholly wrong either

AKorgar

Well it's also our Liz, so shut the fuck up.

AKorgar

It amazes me how much you guys love to characterize this other point of view as being "Russia good" as if we're fans of the invasion, like you complain about there not being nuance and then reduce us to cartoon binaries I take the controversial point of view that humans being killed is bad, but I also take the position that NATO contributed to this state of affairs - contributed, not solely caused but contributed - and I want people to remember that because it's the only way we're going to have any chance of holding the US and NATO responsible for yet another war of choice.

AKorgar

@Entropizzazz They're not robots but it's also entirely fucking predictable for a country who is trying to establish itself as a global power to react this way, nobody acts surprised when the US destroys a Central American democracy to protect fruit profits, why would they be surprised when putting a pro-US government in Ukraine would piss Russia off. @Seth Aronovich For God's sake, don't call people subhumans and stop being weird

AKorgar

Maybe Mate is bad I don't know but I don't like hearing the fucking Rachel Maddow bullshit getting thrown around for sure

Michał Smoleń

Russia is not fighting the US. It’s fighting Ukraine. US tankies sure like demanding the US to be destroyed and then in turns out by the US they mean some poor Slavs

AKorgar

@meandmypalz There are also guys who went to Syria to fight for the Kurds in Donbas, like this war is a mess

AKorgar

@meandmypalz Idk he's weird he keeps forcing Palestine into the subject, probably best to ignore him

mat 1

AKorgar. Ya it's a binary. Invading bad. Not invading good. Cry about nato all you want. Russia is invading a country this time not Nato. Not trying to excuse the past 20 to 150 years of American foreign policy but our retarded leaders didn't order tanks across the Ukrainian border. Your retarded leaders did.

AKorgar

Ukraine is clearly a proxy for the US here and if you're not willing to admit that then I feel extremely comfortable with ignoring you. But again as I said, I take the bizarro position that humans being killed is bad, Ukrainians are humans, therefore Ukrainians getting killed is bad. If you want to write me off as a "tankie" like every other brainrotten lib on the internet, then I could just assume you are some kind of Banderist? Or better yet, let's not do either of those things.

csbrennan31

It's correct to be staunchly opposed to NATO and Western imperialism and any intervention on their part, but it blows my mind and is extremely disappointing that so many people who call themselves socialists or communists now make it the sole focus of their politics to support other capitalist countries/imperialist powers that are weaker but whose strength is growing relative to the declining US empire, in favor of a so-called "multipolar world order" where all the poles are capitalists and imperialists. Where do you see this vision ending up? It will never mean liberation for the working class and oppressed people of the world, but there is a good chance it could lead to nuclear annihilation.

AKorgar

First of all, knock it off with the r-slur, what are you, 14 years old? Secondly, they're not my fucking leaders you knob, I was born in Illinois. But the basic fact is this: Saying that the invasion is solely the responsibility of Russia is just pure goldfish brain, like purely lacking the ability to recognize that events are rooted in prior events from more than two weeks ago. It's the exact same mentality that has people saying shit like, "Well if Palestinians don't want to get bombed, they shouldn't launch rockets"

csbrennan31

This is not proletarian internationalism, this is just anti-Western contrarianism masquerading as a real ideology. You should not be supporting right-wing leaders in Russia, China or anywhere else just because they happen to not be allied with the right-wing leaders in the United States.

TPD

First of all, that was in response to Seth’s unhinged comment. Second, it’s possible to consider the cause and effect of US interventions abroad AND see this for what it is, Russian antagonism and an attack on the Ukrainian people. Diminishing the latter's importance is defacto apologism/whataboutism, and you crying about phantom libs makes it even more idiotic.

Grimmu

bottom 10 episode. too much sighing.

mat 1

Lol first of all "r slur" ?? what the fuck. No wonder the left is non existent with the actual working class in america. Shut the fuck up. Secondly ya duh actions have consequences. So if Jews and communists hadn't risen up in 1918 and the allies hadn't fucked the Germans at Versailles then Nazis wouldn't have reason to invade Poland France? If there wasnt geopolitical advantages to curb stomping Saddam in 03 US wouldn't have invaded. Guess that was cool bc there was reasons that happened. What are you 24?

AKorgar

@csbrennan31 It's called revolutionary defeatism, bro. American workers must oppose American imperialism, Russian workers must oppose Russian imperialism. Together we will end all empires. I don't know why you think we're supporting Putin just because we keep pointing out that NATO helped make this mess.

AKorgar

Also, what's this shit about "right-wing leaders" in China? The government is a Marxist-Leninist state headed by the Communist Party. I've yet to see anyone ever give me a convincing explanation as to why the Chinese Communist Party would keep pretending to be communists when they're actually right-wing capitalists. Like, do they do it in order to keep the Chinese people from overthrowing them? Because that to me suggests that you think the Chinese people are too stupid to know what communism is despite China being one of the last remaining countries that still teaches Marxism in school. Do the Chinese people know the party isn't really communist? Then why do they maintain the deception? It's fucking ridiculous. Maybe you think Deng Xiaoping Thought is garbage - I sympathize with that perspective, even if I don't completely agree with it. But to call them right-wing? Insane.

AKorgar

It is Russian antagonism, yes, and I oppose this invasion because frankly it's bad for everyone, including the Russian people. You know what I heard today? Good friend of mine is married to a woman who is actually FROM the Donbas region, she was speaking to an acquiantance of hers who lives in a village currently occupied by Russian troops. The Russian soldiers were going door to door begging for WATER. They were mad about the war and grumbling that they wanted to go home. This whole thing is a clusterfuck and I'm mad at everyone who contributed to it happening. So cram your whataboutism. I honestly cannot tell you how sick I am at seeing supposed lefties throw that word out every time I try to paint a broader context for things as if seeing the trees for the forest is some dishonest tactic to win a stupid argument

AKorgar

Forget I said anything. You got too many brain worms to bother with.

mat 1

Lol cute. Word up.

Entropizzazz

That’s just it though, people clearly WERE surprised, including the hosts of this podcast. Yeah obviously there are incentives, there are always incentives, but people and especially huge nation states aren’t amoebas that can’t make choices but just do stimulus response. US Imperialism and NATO have done a lot of messed up shit, but that doesn’t excuse another country for invading somewhere.

AKorgar

Also - don't fucking lie, jackass. I scolded him for calling Liz an idiot. There's no reason for that, when you can just say you disagree. That kind of shit is wrecking behavior.

Carson H

Buddy, you need a break from the internet. Take a deep breath, read what you just wrote, and ask yourself why you wrote it.

Bleepblopp

Putin accurately describes America’s flaws and hypocrisy so it is easy to feel like it’s not our place to criticize his issues with NATO. but he is also a corrupt POS that was more than happy to uphold the oligarchy so long as he had the kill switch. And the idea that Russia can compete militarily with the US is laughable. Go back and watch the horror of Shock and Awe.. we controlled airspace in a few hours. Russia has basically given up after 3 days? And that’s not a brag, American military capability is the most horrific and powerful force in history. I tend to agree that America as an entity is garbage. No healthcare, crumbling infrastructure, etc. but that’s because the government spends our tax money on military advancement. Also LMAO at the idea of Russia ‘holding back’ I mean they’re facing financial collapse and you think they haven’t been trying their best? This is a weak take. Just because NATO is stupid doesn’t mean Russia is underestimated. Damn I should have listened to the end before I typed this cuz man, the idea that we should have sympathy with Putin for feeling provoked by NATO? I mean i say he can fucking deal with it. Until he dismantles the oligarchy or lifts his nation out of poverty or proves to otherwise be trying to improve conditions for Russia then why should we care what he thinks of NATO encroachment? Imperialism is imperialism. If he was trying to find peaceful resolution he would have found it. He wants to reclaim Former russian assets. He was going to try to take Ukraine at one point or another. His provocation just proved that something like NATO is necessary! He just gave them their most purpose in decades.

AKorgar

"I said he used to be a piece of shit. He's not anymore. I'm not anymore. Glass House. White Ferrari. Live for New Year's Eve. Sloppy steaks at Truffoni's. Big rare cut of meat with water dumped all over it, water splashing around the table, makes the night SO MUCH more fun. After the club go to Truffoni's for sloppy steaks. They'd say; 'no sloppy steaks' but they can't stop you from ordering a steak and a glass of water, before you knew it we were dumping that water on those steaks! The waiters were coming to try and snatch em up, we had to eat as fast as we could! Ohhh, I miss those nights. I was a piece of shit though."

Chase H

Interesting stuff in here, but the take that the Russian military is "10 years more advanced" than the US military is just not based in reality.

AKorgar

Most people were surprised that they went as far as this invasion, yes. I mean, it's honestly a bad move. See this is the thing though, people keep saying to me, yeah sure NATO has done a lot of bad shit but that doesn't excuse the invasion. But I don't know where I ever said the invasion was okay, or excusable? It's not, and I think it's a bad thing for everyone, including Russia. But the US was definitely making moves to insinuate itself into the Euromaidan government, it definitely turned Ukraine into a proxy state. They helped make this mess. It's important we recognize this because NATO is going to keep doing shit like this, just like they have for the last several decades, and it's going to keep sparking conflicts, so if we actually want to be anti-war, and be really serious about it, we need to understand what it is that sets these conflicts in motion. We have to understand, these are competing imperialisms. The US turned Ukraine into a proxy and it didn't give a shit what it would mean for Ukraine. And right now, Congress is talking about funding a long-term insurgency which is just going to turn Ukraine into the next Afghanistan. They're going to do that to Ukraine, just to bloody Putin's nose. Putin is an asshole, but that's fucked up.

Bleepblopp

Have fun eating your relatives next winter.

Titivilis

Hey, I have nothing but sympathy for real and hypothetical victims of testicular cancer.

Vincent Utah

First the weird Jimmy Dore stanning of the trucker convoy and now this shit. Never mind that Alex Jones and the rest of the far right have been singing praises to Putin all week.

Titivilis

I do think that it would be interesting for anyone to try to separate the US state from global capital, but it's difficult to see how that might be accomplished through any political means.

Carson H

The further I listen... God this sucks. Liz, what's leading you down this path? Don't let ego cloud your judgment here. I've really appreciated the times that you've talked about the nightmarish psycho-sphere of the social media age. Take your own advice and step back a minute. Don't let a fear of getting "owned" or whatever prevent you from recognizing that we were pretty much all taken by surprise here, just like you were. Maybe Putin really is a right-wing imperialist dictator leading working-class Russians against their interests and their will to die over nothing, and maybe most Ukrainians are just doing what anyone with a spine would do in the same situation. NATO is evil but it's not the devil. Don't take your eye off the ball.

Vincent Utah

Calm down AK. She’s never going to be your mommy.

Vincent Utah

I think she’s been listening to Jimmy Dore. There’s a rift happening right now and it’s sad to watch.

Jessica S

I don’t have a problem saying it’s not really my responsibility to criticize other country’s leaders b/c 1) not criticizing is not the same as praising, I’m not going to play the stupid game of silence is violence and 2) if I have a responsibility it would be to criticize my own country’s complicity.

Jessica S

I’m going to be that person and ask if anyone has book recommendations on NATO. It would seem that it’s basically a MLM scam for the defense industry, but I’d really love to read about its history, etc, that hasn’t been filtered through the lens of the US and it’s like-minded cadres.

Carson H

You can already tell from the unprecedented viciousness of "debate" in these comments that opinion over Russia/Ukraine, specifically, will divide our stupid little bullshit world of "internet leftism" in a massive way. Hard to tell if that's a bad thing.

Vincent Utah

Seeing how many lefties are willing to side with the far right just for the sake of “fuck the Democrats/Neolibs/Libs/whatever,” my guess is it’s not so great. Y’all are literally forgetting who’s wanted to wipe you from the earth since day 1.

Vincent Utah

He’s getting old. Part of me thinks he’s pulling the “fuck it! let’s be legends!” card because he knows death is around the corner. God knows he’s scared shitless of getting Covid right now.

Entropizzazz

There’s been no hesitation to heap (often deserved) shit on all sorts of world leaders on this podcast. Suddenly it’s “not their place” to say anything right when they just so happen to have been massively wrong about the very guy this is about? Convenient.

AKorgar

Look, dude, how long have you been a leftist? Because if your idea of the left is floating around guys like Jimmy Dore and that whole Youtube vloggersphere, like Young Turks and Majority Report, you're probably not THAT left. None of this shit is that bizarre or crazy if you're familiar with radical Marxist anti-imperialism from the Black Panther era on up, if you're not familiar with the political lines of actual communist parties like Workers World Party or the PSL. More and more what I feel like is happening here is you got a body of TA listeners who are radicalized but still more or less liberals, you know, "progressives" and then you got people who are actually communists. Maybe I'm off base, maybe you are a communist. But I really don't get what is so extreme about what any of us are saying, maybe you could explicitly point it out for the sake of mutual understanding.

AKorgar

Gross 4chan culture shit, call me a white knight next

Yup

I liked it

DanielDragon

Amazing episode!! Not sure why people have their panties in a bunch from what Liz said.

JV

liz coming off little more realistic on the military analysis and then brace pulling the vet card was p funny

Melissa Ede Cooper

Thanks for posting this episode, there’s too many people who seem convinced they know exactly what is going on either way but seem to also be struggling to find the ‘right’ position or the best take. Respect to you both for honestly sharing a conversation between you with your audience.

Bleepblopp

I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. I felt the same in regards to being skeptical of American intelligence. Like okay they were not lying for once, do I look bad for not believing them? I tend to think that it’s more telling of how much they’ve deceived us historically. But it’s a pretty cold take to think Putin actually means anything about his reasons for invading even if some..NATO encroachment namely..seem legit. He doesn’t care about his people any more than ours care about us (American here). So liz suggesting that we should feel any sympathy for him or admiration for “showing restraint” while innocent Ukrainians and tricked conscripted impoverished Russians are dying is disappointing.

Bleepblopp

Moral seriousness? Such as suggesting that Putin has any more integrity than the CIA? The former head of the KGB who killed the oligarchs so HIS oligarchs of choice could strip Russia for parts while he became the richest one of them all? I don’t take the idea that Putin has righteous motives seriously. He has put Russia in a precarious situation and ultimately had to do this gamble to maintain an illusion that he has significant global influence. It has already backfired and they likely won’t recover the losses for decades or more. I have sympathy for the Russian people which have been humiliated and disparaged in recent history, but much of it was done by Putin himself.

James Scullin II

War breaks out and Brace and Liz are predominantly concerned for how their takes are being received by leftists on Twitter. They both seem startled they got it wrong on Putin invading but who is expecting the TrueAnon pod to be predicting geopolitical events anyway?! Liz is stubborn af on this would be a great RT anchor, not daring to speculate Putin's motives unless he says so himself or she reads it from an official Russian source?! You can tell Brace is sus on her takes too. Love TrueAnon but these guys cannot take themselves too seriously or have to at least acknowledge their anti-US imperialist lens blurs another actor in front of their eyes literally invading another country to colonise it under racial grounds

K Barlas

Hey Brace and Liz, have you guys seen the 2019 Rand corp report "extending Russia: competing from advantageous ground"? It provides pretty shocking answers to some questions you had early in this ep. Ben Norton mentioned it in his excellent video about Kazakhstan, it plots out strategies that have been insane predictions for a lot of world events since 2019 (azeri-armo war, Belarus color rev.) And a lot of info about Ukraine strategy, Gas strategy etc. This current crisis is basically plotted out step by step

Petter Nybråten

I'm a recent subscriber, first time I check these patreon comments. Refreshing to read your (Michal) posts and see them be among the most supported. I'm norwegian, and despite our pol discourse/system suffering from some of the same ills as anywhere else, it's often striking how Americans sound the same regardless of what they stand for. Both Liz and Brace regularly embody a tone I associate with brash citizens of western countries, an attitude towards debate that I for lack of a better word find imperial. It's part of a culture of academia and media that's harshly meritocratic, and it seems a consequence is the absence of truly open questioning of one's own beliefs. Imo nothing imbues credibility like accountability, but somehow everyone from MTG to Liz are convinced there is no reckoning without loss of stature.

Kait Jensen

Fuck NATO but also fuck Putin invading Ukraine, I straight up can’t believe that Liz buys into Putin’s stated reasons for invasion without any criticism. Putin bootlicker is a BAD look.

John McElroy

There are people who are more than superficially reactive or ideologically goose-stepped aligned on this subject. It is up to each of us to search out opinions that do not jibe with our world view so we may move beyond the 85 year meme of the Big Bad Russias - because if that is all we see - then they are doomed to fulfill it as prophecy. And if you thought neo-Nazis on your doorsteps were a problem at your home, or if think pissing off two world powers with nuclear abilities and aptitudes are dangerous(China-Russia), then you can find Dr John Mearsheimers work on YouTube and begin to really understand the history that led to this. Don’t be stupid Americans thinking they have a right to ignorance without checking out the details - we’ve already proven how damaging it is with weapons of mass destruction, Syria, Libya, Iran Contra, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, Afghanistan, color revolutions, coups, and assassinations. There are fundamental patterns of behavior here and until people understand and read about them - we are doomed to repeat mistake after mistake and think we are better than we really are - like fighting a two front war WW3 against nuclear armed and pissed off countries. For many here, get your head out of CNN, MSNBC, NYT or WashPo and find scholars and historians who actually know something about both countries beyond Blinken/Nuland DNC/RNC talking points)

grant brown

Combat veteran listens politely while lady who’s watched every RT video explains ummm actually let me tell you how war works lmao

John McElroy

Anyone here want to actually debate substance or content versus blithely just bloviating?

SF

Jeremy Corbyn has been highly critical of NATO (as well as Putin) so the right wing of the Labour party are putting out briefings that are very clearly trying to incite violence against him. Yesterday another left-wing Labour MP Zarah Sultana received a death threat calling her "Putin's whore" because of her criticisms of NATO, and none of the Labour right or the centrist media have even acknowledged it.

George P

NATO's Secret Armies is incredible, about halfway through and there's some mindblowing shit

Michael Coutts

Anyone waving a finger telling people they got it wrong, you're missing the point. Everyone got it wrong. MSNBC was interviewing Ukrainians on the ground outside of a shelter. They openly said,"No one here thought this was going to happen. No one." The only people yelling about this was the US.

rtlsnk

Surprising number of true anon patreon subscribers saying “nato was right” in the comments. Lol

Arid

I like the episode, but can't help but wonder if the US's role in the conflict has been overstated? If anything this situation exposes how actually, the US doesn't run the world, and a conflict can emerge that the US doesn't control or have a handle on, and ultimately can't do much about without openly declaring war on Russia

rtlsnk

Tho lol at liz breathlessly crying about potential swift sanctions being an “an act of war” then admitting that its only natural that russia will suffer “blowback” for doing a full on military invasion.

Of course

No one got it wrong. No one wanted to admit what was possible. Russia said Ukraine can't join NATO, the US wants to push NATO to Russia's borders. Liberals think that meritocracy means we all have to voice hope that SOMEONE must have sense to pull back, but everyone knows in their gut that all the "right people" benefit from this.

rutjake

ctfu at the “World Destruction” needle drop, yc the goat as ever

Karl Fjellstrom

Liz, it's really too bad, you lost the plot on this one.

rtlsnk

Really her bit about not being one of the people concerned with having the right take is textbook projection.

Of course

How doesn't the US benefit from this? Either way, (1) Russia did nothing + Ukraine joined NATO + US $800b military budget and sanctions continued ... or (2) Russia did a limited strike, most of Ukraine joined NATO, Nordstream 2 killed, US gas exports go up, and US $800b military budget and sanctions continued... or (3) Russia swallows most or all of Ukraine, NATO expands elsewhere and is fortified, world further polarized, a lucrative civil war and insurgency in Ukraine, China's belt-and-road initiative destabilized, all popular dissent in US and Europe squashed (or better yet, relegated to Trump and Tucker), $900b military budget and cutting off Russian natural gas (look at the LinkedIn page of Amos Hochstein, Biden's energy security chief... add that to the Hunter Biden family panic over Nordstream 2). It's all win-win-win for American leaders. If the US wanted peace and stability, they would have led a post-Cold War non-NATO security settlement at SOME point over the last 30 years instead of scuttling nearly every nuclear nonproliferation treaty, sanctions galore, launching endless "wars of choice," insane demonization of Moscow, and running up NATO to Russia's borders. Even the NYTimes-brained comments here, completely accept the zero-sum social darwinistic racket.

Of course

Liz seemed genuinely distressed as to where all this could go. Because she's normal. I try not to confuse TrueAnon/Chapo/RadioWarNerd jokey cynicism about deceitful US liberal moralizing with indifference to human suffering.

Of course

I wish I was surprised. I'm old enough to remember when reformist social democrats in the 80s and 90s turned tail and said, "Reagan was correct! Let's follow Clinton!" ... The snarky crowd can't use Trump's funny contrarianism as a foil anymore, and there isn't an organized US/European left to stick with the "End NATO" and "slash military spending" demand, so the sneering liberal interlopers on parade here will go back to CNN and the NYTimes.

Of course

What other reasons for invasion does Putin have except (1) preventing Ukraine from joining NATO, (2) squashing anti-Russia military and paramilitary activity ("denazification"), and (3) demanding that the US accept that Russia has legitimate security needs? Putin and Lavrov said all this, many times... and the natsec libs and neocons understood this. You can (1) disagree with Russia's aims or (2) think Russia's invasion is counterproductive to its stated aims (Brace's position), or (3) accept Russia's aims AND its actions to achieve them as tragically predictable or even necessary to counter overwhelming US hegemony (Liz's position).

Kait Jensen

Stephen Jones, the fact that you presume to know how these fuckin ghoulish imperialist leaders think just goes to show that you know nothing about anything. You listen to podcasts and sit online and your brain is rotten enough to really believe that “it can only be Brace’s way or Liz’s way” lmao. They don’t know shit for sure and neither do you and neither do I but at least I have the brain power to imagine 100 more reasons for invasion than the ones laid out by some fuckin pundits or the Russian media. Like uhhhh Putin wants Ukraine’s resources, or any million other reasons for a power hungry dictator like all of these fools who start wars that benefit no one but themselves and their rich homies.

Foster

I came here to cancel my subscription but reading this comment gave me hope.

Of course

I don't know the inside of anyone's head. I've had some dealings with politicians, including people you know. I've read books. But yes, even then, I can't read minds. But I can figure out what their options are and assign some likelihoods, some probabilities. We don't have an organized left in the US, but if we did, one of our first goals would be to curtail US hegemony - which includes Ukraine's admission into NATO. Vladimir Putin took a tragic, brutal route to doing this, and his action was consistent with his aims as stated for at least 15 years, and these act may escalate horribly or otherwise backfire on him. But what, then, are WE doing to staunch the dominant hegemonic imperialism (which is - hint - not Russian or Chinese). No I don't have a great answer to that. I think Corbyn has one of the better takes, but Keir Starmer, the UK civil service, and the BBC + Guardian will cut him down again. Maybe even criminalize his opinion.

Of course

The best part of it are the people who say, "I love TrueAnon but I have to side with the military alliance that spends over a trillion bucks a year while people are homeless and sick, is run by vampiric pedos, AND just destroyed Libya. What's gotten into Brace and Liz?! Can't they see Putin acted unilaterally and is the evilest wiliest monster ever?!"

Graham Hoese

JESUS WHY ARE THERE SO MANY COMMENTS? any ways you guys hear about the crazy Russia shit???

Of course

Well, Ghislaine is convicted and Epstein is "dead," so the kids were looking for the grown-up exit ramp and found it in their love for NATO and the New York Times. I saw the same thing 30 years ago when all the reformist socdems (and quite a few lefties) took a cue from the collapsed USSR and triumphant "neo"liberalism and declared Reagan a prophet and Clinton the wave of the future.

Vincent Utah

Something tells me you frequent that site quite often.

Of course

Re "Liz didn't apologize"... this reminds me of another fan-favorite gal Amber A'Lee Frost who declared that you should never, ever offer a public apology. You're just setting yourself up to be dragged and ruined. Nobody who would demand an apology for an OPINION or PREDICTION is worth acknowledging. Of course, the NYTimes-heads don't want an apology for a prediction, they want Liz to apologize for prioritizing her anti-NATO stance over joining the wall-to-wall state media chorus in criticizing Putin and Russia. And while she is genuinely dismayed by events and possible outcomes, I'm glad Liz is not apologizing.

orc

Everyone's a leftist until there's war lol

Carson H

No one is asking her to "apologize." We're criticizing her for her refusal to consider the implications of having badly misjudged this conjuncture like much of the "online left." Some of the stuff she says in this episode is deranged, and that derangement apparently stems from a failure to self-reflect or show any humility in the face historical events.

csbrennan31

I don't know what everyone in China thinks about their government, the Chinese people are obviously not a monolith. I do know there are plenty of people who oppose the Chinese government from the left, and it's beyond obvious that the CCP is not communist and also makes total sense why they would continue to be communist in name only. Actually, while I wish they would go more into it so people know where they stand, I am pretty sure Brace and Liz do not think the Chinese government is communist because they have alluded to that being a silly point of view in the past. And I'm not an expert on China but yes I think it is a right wing government in terms of allowing capitalists to destroy their housing, education and healthcare markets and make those basic necessities completely unaffordable for many people in China, as well as opposing democratic rights, cracking down on labor organizers and left-wing activists, treatment of ethnic minorities, and also rhetorical appeals to masculinity, attacks on LGBT people, etc. But the bottom line is it is a privileged bureaucracy that has facilitated capitalist restoration in China and that should be enough to call it right-wing.

csbrennan31

I AM advocating for revolutionary defeatism but that requires an honest accounting for the role of the governments of other countries like Russia and China as also being capitalist and imperialist powers even if in the US and NATO are currently the aggressors and still in a dominant position which I agree with. Two different governments can be opposed to each other and both be bad, and what I hear from a lot of the so-called "Marxist-Leninist" crowd (who I think are unfortunately bastardizing that term by misapplying the theory of Marx and Lenin and replacing it with that of Stalin, who represents a major break with that tradition, or Deng Xiaoping, who is even worse), is not advocating for revolutionary defeatism and in fact not advocating for socialism or communism but instead nationalistic support of other capitalist governments because they are opposed to the US, which while I think it comes from a good place of opposition to the imperialism of the US and NATO is ultimately a dead end.

Doug Weldin

What’s the word for a weeb but for Russia? Russoboo? Vodkaboo? Liz laps up kremlin propaganda like a granny in rural Iowa laps up Fox News.

Vincent Utah

Yes, keep gatekeeping the left AK. You’re reminding me why we haven’t done jackshit in the past 30 years.

Colin Clark

Apologizing for defying consensusphere pieties is different from acknowledging that your analysis was wrong. It seems the same because the grotesque consensusphere is gonna play it the same but one is weak and the other is honest.

Of course

I can't believe that everyone who disagrees with Brace and Liz is on the flight logs. Like a perfect circle Venn diagram. Genuinely shocking. Thank you for reading my totally in-good-faith characterization of others.

csbrennan31

"American workers must oppose American imperialism, Russian workers must oppose Russian imperialism. Together we will end all empires. " This part I agree with. The only solution to war is an international anti-war movement bringing together the working class of Russia, Ukraine, Western Europe, the US, and yes, also China, to oppose their oppressive capitalist leaders and all imperialist acts of war.

J.P. McD.

lol this is an entertainment podcast, stop being dumb stupid babies

Carson H

The stuff at the end about online brain rot is truly surreal. I mean, I just finished listening to an hour-long recording of two Twitter addicts talking all sorts of nonsense about a situation which, up until a few days ago, they themselves had completely misjudged. Their smugness about "dirtbag leftist Bernie bros" online is breathtaking. Are you fucking kidding me? You're describing yourselves you dinguses. Take your own advice and log off for a few days. You're embarrassing yourselves here.

Bobby Volcano

Pretty sure the right take, is always the one with double-digit hearts in the patreon comments so this has been a very fruitful exercise

J.P. McD.

This is an entertainment podcast, same as any MSNBC or Fox News show. It does not matter if they have “the right takes” or apologize for being wrong, and it does not matter if *you* have done your research and have the exactly correct opinion (or bravely say “I don’t know”). You are irrelevant (and so are they) in this conflict, so either ignore it or indulge in the doom at your pleasure. Don’t delude yourself into thinking your “paying attention” matters here.

csbrennan31

You are right, NATO helped make the mess and I'd even say they played the leading role in making the mess. But I'm glad you said these are competing imperialisms because that's exactly it, when we say that we need to understand what it is that sets these conflicts in motion a lot of people are saying the answer to that is simply "NATO" or "Western imperialism", when the real answer is that it is capitalism, because capitalism requires constant growth and these means that imperialism is baked into its very logic, so as long as the governments of these competing powers are accepting the logic of capitalism they will inevitably come into conflict with people at some point. The US could say that Ukraine will never be allowed into NATO and that might allow for a ceasefire but it wouldn't change the underlying economic logic that led to this situation. I have seen some people claiming that because it's the US that dominates the global financial system, what Russia is doing can't be called imperialism, and that misses the point that the Russian government accepts the logic of capitalism and so they accept the logic of imperialism. If we want to be anti-war we can't just be anti-Russia or anti-NATO, we have to be anti-capitalist and honestly grapple with what that means because as long as there is capitalism there will be imperialism and war and there are no quick fixes without addressing the underlying economic logic.

Of course

Ok, it's all coming together. When the podcast primarily concerned itself with the morally uncomplicated world of pedo-hunting, all was good. But now, where you have to prioritize and make fine distinctions between grubby violent political actors in situations of vastly higher stakes, where - as Brace said - you can't believe any of the "facts" - well, you're gonna upset some people. What I see here is a lot of "I didn't sign up for anti-NATO smears or blowback equivocations! Stick with attacking the pedos, it's morally comfy."

Carson H

Thanks for the great advice, comrade! While I'm at it, thanks also for sharing your brilliant insights about how what *appears* to be major underperformance on the part of Russia's military is *actually* part of Putin's genius plan to overthrow the Great Satan, NATO. It had seemed to me that the Russian invasion force was demoralized and that all of this would simply shore up support for NATO and plunge the Russian economy into massive depression, but now I can see that freedom from the yoke of Western imperialism is right around the corner. Have a great day!

J.P. McD.

There are certainly things that matter or would “make a difference”. You (or a podcast) having the right opinion on a war is not one of them.

Erin

If you comment on Patreon you're retarded 💖

Calvin Smale

Finally, the correct opinions for me to have are collated

J.P. McD.

It's funny too how people like you think "it doesn't matter if a podcast, or you, have the correct opinions on social media about international events" means "I am a nihilist who thinks nothing matters". Shows that your entire interaction with the world is through online posting, and so of course you need to believe it matters. If you actually want to do something useful, the answer as always is unionize your workplace, and then work on some kind of international solidarity organizing through there.

Em Zora

I dont think Ukraines nazi problem may be as big as some say, but what you just said is wrong. Is the USA not racist because we had a black president? Come on.

Carson H

I’m active in my union and have served for years as a steward, but thanks anyway for the advice, pal. I agree that fighting online over who has the “right take” is pseudo-politics, but let’s not pretend that we listen to podcasts like this purely for the sake of entertainment. We are all in our ways trying to make sense of the world in a particular historical moment. What galls me about this episode is that the hosts—and Liz in particular—are engaging in bad faith about something important. Even if none of us here can directly effect the course of events, how we make sense of this situation will have major implications for the decade ahead, including when it comes to “real” political activity.

Seth Aronovich

lol you seem really mad that Putin had the stones to stand up against your Azov buddies

Seth Aronovich

Anyone opposing Russia's peacekeeping operation in the comments is one of the guys who signed up to the podcast to make sure that _his_ entry in the Black Book didn't get mentioned.

J.P. McD.

How "we" the TrueAnon Patreon commenters "make sense of this situation" is absolutely not going to have major implications for the decade ahead. Genuinely glad you owned me about your union though.

Jerry

Hi

Carson H

So what's your point then dude? That the interpretation of historical events has no meaning whatsoever? Obviously I'm not suggesting that "we, the TrueAnon subscriber community" are some incipient political subject. We are all people experiencing history, though, and yes, I do insist that how we (i.e., people) make sense of situations is significant to some degree. By all means, though, keep hiding behind cynicism.

syd

hey what does everyone think? should I read the comments?!

BryceSprungstein

SO do you have your plane ticket and your gun yet? Otherwise, shut the fuck up

Bobby Volcano

Noticed Derek Davison is being chased by haters in the comments on his Ukraine content wherever he goes. Am Prestige patreon comments obviously but also even live on YouTube chat when he went on MR. Trying to imagine this being a job.

TrueAnonPod

No you add more grains of salt if you don’t believe something to make it saltier and thus easier to eat (?)

TrueAnonPod

I would argue that NATO in fact is the devil. Even putting aside the entire course of its history and present disposition to the world (including most recently the destruction of Libya), several people I know were killed by NATO troops on the border with Turkey.

Carson H

The point of my distinction between NATO’s being “evil” as opposed to “the devil” is to underline how, although it represents the apogee of Western imperialism, it is not some kind of supernatural entity. Once you’ve assented to thinking about the current historical moment as a Manichean struggle between West and East, you’ve stepped outside the realm of materialism and the next thing to go is the primacy of class struggle. I know that many here will disagree, but I think that this campist mentality is entirely at odds with any Marxist perspective. As evidence, I would point to the virtual absence of class analysis from this episode in particular. Love your guys’ work, but I really do think you whiffed this one. Not the end of the world, by any means. Feel better soon.

meandmypalz

I forgot that Liz mentioned scott ritter. Attempted child diddler. Man she is really out to lunch on this.

Jack

These are the first sensible opinions I’ve heard since the war started

olivia

Please do a part 2 this was super interesting

Nick

Hoping we get a mea culpable

Nick

Oh there we go

rtlsnk

I mean if we are doing guilt by association here….. what do you prefer? Imperialist? Fascist? I can call you nazi too considering how many are in the russian armed forces. Let me know which you prefer.

John Swan

Alright let’s take a look at the episode and comments and see who has the biggest armchair.

Alec

Yikes these comments..Reminds me of the way the “Western left” dealt w the Syrian civil war. We’re so easily divided it’s pathetic. Brace and Liz were 100% correct on their understanding of the events leading up to this, and to be fair the motherfuckers who said Russia was going to invade were pushing Havana Syndrome like right before this. Grow up

Sam Ray

This is the perfect low information conflict.

Zachary Sloan

Brace's "Discord of the soul" comment is great and a good way of describing something I've noticed. Many "leftists" basically structure all their thoughts and beliefs with regard to "how they will be perceived by liberals online." It's just an eternal Twitter argument. I have no patience for it anymore.

John McElroy

Some of the people in this thread (having a go at Liz here) are surely getting paid to shape opinion - you can see individual criticisms being levied and see very little substance other than an adjective that sounds catchy and repetition. They must get paid by the post

Kompromatic

You’ve owned yourself you fool!

J.P. McD.

I'm "cynical" about *online posting and podcasting affecting positive change*, I'm not cynical. My point is if you're crying for Liz to be "held accountable" and you think it matters, you're a baby. Argue by all means and indulge in the news and speculation if that's what gets you off, but don't delude yourself into thinking it's anything more than that.

Evan Scott

Yes it's true I'm being payed $12,500 per comment by the state department to say "maybe putin miscalculated". I am now a very rich man

Evan Scott

The state department and CIA know that there is no better investment than paying fake leftists to salt the comments of episodes of the podcast TrueAnon on Patreon, a subscriber only service

dopamean

I'm gonna need a source on liz's claim that the Russian military is 10 years ahead of the US military. It sounds like a completely ridiculous statement but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

da spiffy pranksta

“america could end this war in a second but they won’t because they want to throw ukraine to the grist” wassup???

Adam

very disappointed as a day one listener, you guys suck now. bye

DanielDragon

Damn, that’s bleak. Genuinely curious, what do you think motivated this shift you described 30 years ago

HATERSLAYER420

"cope cope cope" shut the fuck up lmao this isn't twitter no one is impressed by your presumed intellectual superiority. so many people have made genuinely interesting points and then immediately put their foot in their mouth. stop posting cringe it ruins your credibility my opinion on the matter is: idk enough about the region's history, i'm still learning. it kinda ends there. but as always it's fuck NATO and fuck Putin. NATO is imperialist strongarm bullshit and Putin is a reckless and nationalistic machismo bitch. multiple things can be true at once, it doesn't have to be one or the other. i side more with brace's outlook (in general and on this topic) and i feel awful for anyone living through an invasion. remember that this is just a podcast and our beloved hosts are fallible. i understand and agree with some of the criticism, i sympathize with the frustration behind it, but people in the comments would benefit from 1. calming down 2. being less self righteous 3. chill with the corny infighting and buzzwords, all it does is obscure. but what do i know? i too am cringe :^)

Alec

you worst dog of worst neighborhood

Carson H

I’m not asking for anyone to be “held accountable” and you know very well that you’re misconstruing the rest of my argument: I never implied that posting “affects positive change.” Enjoy being above it all, man.

Evan Scott

Nobody knows what the fuck is going on everyone just needs to calm the fuck down

da spiffy pranksta

"no one should be surprised Putin enforced his red line" aren't you surprised tho???? you laughed at the idea of it happening???

Evan Scott

It's funny considering how many times in the past I've been accused of being an Assadist/Putinist but I guess a lot of people can relate

John McElroy

Evan is the Kevin Bacon 🥓 character in animal house - 😂😂😂 calm down, everything is under control haha

J.P. McD.

I’m not above it, I’m commenting on a Patreon post (because it entertains me to be mad at libs and leftists who think proper social media behavior is important). You definitely do think you’re affecting positive change; you want Liz to think differently which in turn will make the audience think differently which in turn you imagine will change the world.

Karen-Ethel

A follow up on the very recent financial developments regarding SWIFT and Central Bank?Besides the 15% of Russian reserves in China - Russian now has access to only 240 billion. Estimates are the cost of Russian operations in Ukraine are 20 billion daily. Two week war? Also, I think it is important to note that Russian exports like wheat and the resulting food shortages that we will see could destabilize regions beyond Europe. “Little fires everywhere.”

John McElroy

Btw I was not referring to you as a paid troll. More like Meandmypalz

Brad

I live in the Ukrainian Village neighborhood in Chicago. Lots of red and black flags this week. It’s pretty discouraging the amount of right wing nationalists that are waving them around.

John S

Carson Humungousdiaper

Evan Scott

To be frank I'm ready to be completely wrong just like I was when I was when I was convinced like everyone else that the idea of invasion was just NATO Saber rattling

Max Joyner

This is just the flipside of libs who think everyone is a paid Russian shill lol

Tanya Finder

Refreshing to hear a lot of my thoughts voiced in this episode and it’s been kind of stomach churning to see half the supposed left turning into weird goose stepping liberals simping for NATO, the other half absolutely panicking to try and find the woke take on this, and both of them immediately accusing anyone with a critical take on NATOs role of being a Russian propagandist. It’s sad to see people scrambling for the “right” take on what the fuck is going on. The world is actually complex. Yes US politicians are absolutely dripping to renew tensions with an imagined Soviet Union, yes energy and resources are a big part of this, and yes Putin has his own intentions with Ukraine and their resources. There is not one thing at play here and I think it’s unsettling to realize that nobody is really driving here. We don’t want to believe that. But for sure the shitty take is to buy into nationalism and the western hypocrisy of only giving a shit about war when state violence is directed towards white people, or to claim you know what the fuck is going on when in all likelihood the ruling class doesn’t fully know what the fuck is going on. The only certainty is that war is a fucking racket and we should have solidarity with all victims of state violence, whether it’s in Ukraine, Gaza, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, or any of the other countries where people have been/are being terrorized and murdered for resources and war games. Goddamn

Tanya Finder

i def thought this was just hopeful warbaiting by the Biden admin (still do tbh) but I also did not think Russia intended to do anything about it. Fuckin wild.

Tanya Finder

The only truly solid take on any of this, always

John McElroy

Looks like Chris Hedges is going on Katie Halpers podcast tonight - worth a listen

Tanya Finder

Been really gross to see anyone with more nuance than “Putin is Hitler” painted as a Russian propagandist or a tankie, or anyone who points out that NATO is also an imperialist warmongering institution accused of being pro Russian. Liz’s take is so mild, people really resort to their liberal roots when shit hits the fan

Gallo Altanero

Brace did you meet those guys who left YPG to fight in Donbass against Russian speaking people? I am still friends with a few and very confused.

Evan Scott

I don't think anyone is a paid shill everyone is just trying to deal with a very confusing and dynamic situation

Turtle Bugg

Aaron Mate was a clear sign that things were going bad. I really enjoyed this podcast n it's work on Epstein connections are still A+, no1 better. But this is pretty disappointing

dopamean

Oh shit dj turtle bugg in the true anon comments. Totally agree with you.

K Barlas

They were fine with all the spider network episodes, but this is where people draw the line? Incredible

K Barlas

Google Rand corporation extending Russia report. The US literally planned out this whole thing in 2019

K Barlas

If you think this war is happening because of racial grounds, I'm sorry but you're wrong. If Putin was doing this because of weird beliefs about Ukrainian peoe really being Russians and needing to be folded into the motherland or whatever, why do it now? It's so clearly about NATO, the anti-russia military alliance. Just because Putin says it, doesn't make it automatically false, they've been clear about NATO for decades

K Barlas

Hey, no one here likes Putin you moron, it's bad because the Russian PEOPLE are going to suffer for this alongside Ukrainians. And Russia is holding back, because they don't want the bad press of obliterating Ukrainian civilians, something Americans clearly didn't give a shit about in Iraq because they had the world more or less on their side (more than Putin does)

K Barlas

Where in the constantly saying peace talks need to happen because the longer the war goes on the worse everything gets, did you get the impression that this wasn't anti-war?

meandmypalz

yeah dude I totally get paid to bully you online

Internet jones

Yeah right isn’t it cause salt kills bacteria and the more questionable the meat the more spice it requires?

Internet jones

Keir would be a pretty horrifying figure if it wasn’t 100% certain that he will lose so many times he will age out of the party chair

Greg Howie

Can Brace just say what he means. The endless caveats are making the podcast shit

Andy

@cb94 enthonationalism from someone who claims to know better? Lawlz totally

Manny di Presso

Yea I’m pretty sure US spent like 750b in fiscal 2021 and Russia was under 65b sooo

Scott Laugenour

Why the blanket disparagement of Green parties in Europe? Just some cheap shot? Or perhaps Brace can offer specific takes on where he disagrees with them.

mexicanhalloween .

wow, didn't realize how many liberals were paying you guys, great job, keep it up

Katie

As a Russian now living in NA with family in both Ukraine and Russia - and no not a rich oligarch at all , the opposite actually - just wanted to say thank you for the empathy Brace. I was hesitant to listen to this episode because in general people in America have been really callous about this whole thing, basically foaming at the mouth for a war and as much blood spilled and casualties as possible... but I felt the solidarity.

Carson H

All right, you caught me. I'm interested in changing people's minds. It's "cringe," I know—but there you have it.

Lcfitz

Usually love true anon but I had to come check the comments to see if others felt how I did. Putin is a war criminal, no? Why do I feel that this episode was making excuses for what he is doing now. They also did not seem to discuss the deeper historical/cultural reasons Russia wants Ukraine back (just nato word vomit incessantly). Will do some research on Aaron mate too as I felt this way after that episode too. Disappointed.

Lionel Boyd Johnson

What's the range of debate in Norway? That is to say, what's the average "mainstream" reaction to events in Ukraine, and what's the general contrarian position? And what's your opinion as a Norwegian TrueAnon listener? Genuinely curious, please share!

Lionel Boyd Johnson

Totally agree, that's just baseless ad hominem attacks with a side order of Hilary simping. Mate might have opinions, but he puts in the work and he's calling it like he sees it.

Katie

All I know is that this is a region with a lot of history and a lot of intergenerational trauma amongst the people... we are just regular people. And in America you all are just regular people (well maybe not Brace and Liz since they are media folks i guess) and yet I think your governments will be equally hurting you over this by letting you cope with inflation, another forever war, etc. You have to wonder whose life is going to really meaningfully improve from any of this.

Lionel Boyd Johnson

Brace literally volunteered to go fight with the Kurds and saw action. Where did you ever get the idea that they are anti-war? They're anti-imperialist wars, but anti- war? Wrong show!

Lionel Boyd Johnson

Speak on it Brace! But don't run off all the libs, they've got all the money. Although I think this dude just blew his wad on 5 cent big brain neo-lib professor words, so maybe you can just boot him now! Inshallah...

Lionel Boyd Johnson

"MLM scam for the defense industry" You are brilliant, that's the hottest of hot takes and hilarious!

Andy

@lionel being anti-war is not the same as pacifism and I think the argument for engaging with the Kurds is much stronger than the argument for engaging with Russian aggression. Behaving as if Putin’s actions aren’t just the coin flip of the same imperialist power struggle that dominates world instability is just pretty dumb shit.

Lionel Boyd Johnson

Wow, just downloaded the report, and just reading the table of contents is eye popping. Thanks for the solid recommendation, but this is freaking chilling.

Andy

Do another Britney episode WTF!!!

Lionel Boyd Johnson

And tons of mainstream US officials (including the foul ghoul Kissinger) agree with all these points. This part isn't open for debate, these are simple documented historical facts. Putin may be fudging his immediate casus belli, but his political goals are very clear.

Lionel Boyd Johnson

I think someone should just drop the mic and shut down the comments after this one. Bravo.

Bill Noneya

god damn we are fucked, well gg yall

DarylBarenziah

Yo I know y’all hate this. But even like ten fuckin minute Ukraine updates would be incredible. Not to bully but y’all have done it before. Reddit is bad. This is a journalism moment and I low key get the vibe y’all feel the same way. The misinfo is driving me insane on the web.

Carson H

That’s right Lionel, you tell daddy to come take the bad man away! Also, the only people who’ve “got all the money” here are the filthy rich podcasters you look to for guidance.

Lionel Boyd Johnson

I think it's more sad if you're doing it in your free time...

B Jones

lol yeah it's almost like she doesn't know wtf she's talking about

Null_null

I think the greatest mistake of the previous episode was Ames’ sort of estimation of Ukrainian nationalism. This idea that they were squishy on Eastern vs. Western loyalties or just this idea of everyday Ukrainians going wherever the economically prosperous winds blow. I think Brace did a good job of rendering that dubious data meaningless. Even if it were true before, this mass invasion changed the math entirely. Liz offered great analysis and context. And I think did the important work of putting “economic sanctions” into context in terms of how they’d be perceived by Russia. I think Liz went a little hard on her perceived haters. I don’t think people sharing the memes are necessarily neocons. But if you’re in the comments saying the US should escalate sanctions to the extent they’d destroy Russia’s economy and force a larger military response, you are 100% a neocon.

Drawhp _Heavy

Holy fuck this was disturbing...

James Scullin II

You’re right. Russia has a lot to be aggrieved about given NATO encroachment and being treated like a Bond villian for decades. Still no reason for Liz to get all Putin-pilled just bc it puts her in an awkward position with people on Twitter. Also Russian state media has been making the case for the area of ‘Novorossia’ since 2014 and very much based on Russian race

Natalie

am i just super high or does this episode kinda feel like a low key troll 😈

Bobo Bunsen

RW nationalists waving anarchist flags or nazi flags?

K Barlas

Check out the content man it gets way creepier. They literally consider "instigating a color revolution in Belarus", like they use the term, it's incredible

Natalie

Liz i loved you in The Americans 😜

cstenzy

@Bobo if it's a Ukrainian rally, the flags are almost certainly UPA

Ash

Yeah this is a dream outcome for NATO. Some of its member states (France and Germany in particular) weren't sufficiently invested in the project anymore. Now the whole alliance is galvanised for the new cold war and NATO has an event it can use to justify its existence for the next couple of decades at least.

BruceInAdelaide

NATO after being defeated in Afghanistan is in disarray. NATO has only been galavanised to issue press releases. NATO will not act like a military pact and fight. NATO had to flee from farmers and goat herders. If they cannot defeat some of the poorest and most backward farmers in the underdeveloped world, what chance do they have against a near peer nation as Russia? This represents a further descent into collapse.

BruceInAdelaide

NATO after being defeated in Afghanistan is in disarray. NATO has only been galavanised to issue press releases. NATO will not act like a military pact and fight. NATO had to flee from farmers and goat herders. If they cannot defeat some of the poorest and most backward farmers in the underdeveloped world, what chance do they have against a near peer nation as Russia? This represents a further descent into collapse.

Bobo Bunsen

oh ok. sounds like they hate the russians invading

John McElroy

This would be a great time for Liz and Brace primer on SWIFT - the western financial clearing system and how it might be used to deploy sanctions against Russia - China and Russia have been working on a substitute but it does not appear ready and someone like Stephanie Kelton might help us make sense of we go from a unipolar world order in finance (where the dollar is the world’s reserve currency) to a competing system where that no longer is the case. Naked capitalism (Yves Smith) is doing interesting work in this area

John McElroy

Or even better Michael Hudson would rock! He just wrote this morning on How America just defeated the Germans for third time this century / very provocative stuff

Isaiah C

looking forward to azov finally being crushed

Yngve Skogstad

Painting with a broad brush, (the are some mostly positive examples on a county/regional level at least in France and Norway) but Green parties in Europe have over the last decades become thoroughly neoliberal in terms of economic and social policy. To the degree they try to appear social democratic (in countries where such a distinction even exists), when push comes to shove, this is not prioritized. Their voter base consist of a very narrow segment of younger, highly educated urban dwellers who identify with liberalism and Europeanism. A mix of either well-meaning people misguided by their class-position or lack of political education, and the most narcissistic scolds you can find. Their worst aspect imo are their foreign policy stances, where they enthusiastically support all the institutions that uphold Western hegemony, and among the most ardent neocons out there, which has been particularily evident during the past week.

Elsie Hupp

Yes, both NATO and the USSR lost to Afghan villagers, and Russia seems intent on doing the same thing in Ukraine. (Yes, there are allegedly Ukrainian villagers blocking tanks.) By all accounts, regardless of the merits of a Russian intervention, Russia clearly overestimated the extent to which Ukraine would merely roll over if actually invaded. Perhaps Ukraine learned a different lesson from WWII than France did.

Elsie Hupp

Mostly replying to AKorgar here: while clearly NATO is giving Ukraine both weapons and intelligence, by all accounts they have done so without actually entering Ukraine. One could more broadly describe the NATO response to Putin’s demands in the run-up to the invasion as ostentatiously putting their hands in their pockets and whistling: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotSoInnocentWhistle Yes, NATO has very publicly done plenty of awful things in the past. But in this particular instance it seems like NATO went out of their way to very publicly do nothing.

Elsie Hupp

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this, but if Russia’s concern is Ukrainian Nazis in Russia’s backyard, then they would have done better to invade Canada than Ukraine, given that Canada absorbed most of the postwar Banderaites, and Ukraine spent the remainder of the 20th century thoroughly denazifying its society. Oh, wait, Russia didn’t invade Canada because Canada is a NATO member state and therefore a de facto nuclear power? It’s almost like Russia is just bullying a weaker country rather than going up against the real source of the problems it describes!

BruceInAdelaide

The most interesting "unintended consequence" of cutting off Russia from the SWIFT is the possibility of fewer and fewer transactions being done in the US dollar, could lead to the US dollar collapsing in value, as it ceases to be the world currency. That would make it damn hard for the world's greatest debtor nation, the US, to pay for the still growing volume of goods it no longer makes, but now imports from China, now the workshop of the world. Closer economic links with China may be doing Russia a very great favour.

Elsie Hupp

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this, but if Russia’s concern is Ukrainian Nazis in Russia’s backyard, then they would have done better to invade Canada than Ukraine, given that Canada absorbed most of the postwar Banderaites, and Ukraine spent the remainder of the 20th century thoroughly denazifying its society. Oh, wait, Russia didn’t invade Canada because Canada is a NATO member state and therefore a de facto nuclear power? It’s almost like Russia is just bullying a weaker country rather than going up against the real source of the problems it describes!

Ash

Those must be some great drugs you have down there in Adelaide. NATO thrives on cold war and frankly couldn't give a shit what happens to Ukrainians. If anything, turning the whole country into a proxy battlefield = profit. They aren't in disarray, they're in the fucking money.

Ash

His job isn't to win anyway. He's just a glorified strike breaker whose brief is to purge the left from labour.

Don Workman

You mentioned it a couple times yeah

Don Workman

So sad. 2 see the supporter turn on Liz. It’s like this new movie I have seen…”Don’t look up”It’s about doctor who knows the earth is about to blow up or something. One is Leo Decaprio and one is Jennifer Lawrence. Like Brace and Liz. And suprise suprise. Nobody listen to her either even president. I think woman can do anything….NOW ENOUGH B.S. CRAP and fighting…let’s foccus on what’s good in life AKA wind in ur hair on the hoghway as I call it.

Elsie Hupp

Yes, the Western stopped clock was right this time. No telling about the Russian or Chinese stopped clocks, though… (It boggles my mind that anyone would see RT or CCTV as less partisan than Radio Martí. Yes, Radio Martí, not Radio Free Europe. Xinhua is probably a better comparison to Radio Free Europe in that it actually makes the effort to be boring, though, granted, the CCTV anchors on the TV at my laundromat all have that distinctively flat “NPR voice” despite not speaking in English.)

Elsie Hupp

I’ve mentioned other things in comment responses here, but this is the only place I’ve mentioned Canadian Banderaites. Perhaps everyone you disagree with looks the same to you?

Elsie Hupp

Honestly Liz struggled to articulate herself this time around. Like, yes, NATO bad, but she failed to specify what, exactly she meant by “NATO provocation” or “Putin’s red line” specifically within the context of February 24th, 2022. NATO has done plenty of bad things, but they put on a big show of doing not much of anything*** in the month leading up to the invasion. ***Obviously NATO has been giving Ukraine weapons and real-time intelligence, but as far as I know they’ve done so without Russia accusing them of actually sending any NATO troops into Ukraine.

Elsie Hupp

As far as I can tell this comment got eaten by Patreon, so I’m posting it again: I’m sure we can all agree that NATO is at least largely a tool of US imperialism, but it would be helpful if Liz claiming that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was in response to “NATO provocation” were to specify what, precisely, she is claiming precipitated it. It would also be helpful if she could articulate “Putin’s red line” in terms of active NATO actions***, as opposed to merely doing nothing in the face of Putin’s demands. I say “precipitated” very specifically because precipitation is what tips the scale, leading to an ongoing reaction, rather than the accumulation leading up to it. Precipitation is a physical state change (with or without a chemical reaction); atmospheric precipitation, for example, is when humidity turns into rain (or snow or hail). So, specifically, did NATO do that made it rain? As far as I am aware, there is very little evidence NATO has done anything directly within Ukraine during and after this outbreak of war. Yes, NATO has provided weaponry and intelligence, but by all accounts they have done so without actually entering Ukraine. Instead, NATO has made a great show of ignoring both Russia’s and Ukraine’s entreaties both before and during the invasion. Putin seemingly expected NATO to retaliate for the buildup itself, and NATO instead put its hands in its pockets, avoided eye contact and began whistling a song. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotSoInnocentWhistle As far as Putin’s demands were concerned, it’s my understanding that he wanted NATO to roll back its last twenty years of accessions, which… is not something that any one NATO member state can actually do. If you look at the text of the NATO treaty, countries can only voluntarily withdraw from NATO, which is indeed kind of the point. (What would happen if, despite the institutional barriers, war broke out between two NATO states is entirely unclear.) https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty Regarding “Putin’s red line”, the previously ongoing skirmishes between the Ukrainian government and the Donbas separatists clearly do not count, as if that were truly a red line, it was crossed the better part of a decade ago. Never mind that these skirmishes have never directly involved NATO; by any conventional definition, a “red line” must be an actually new development, not a continuation of the status quo. So please, please tell me, what was this highly specific NATO provocation was, and also tell me what “Putin’s red line” was, both of these in terms of NATO *actually doing* something rather than in terms of NATO *not doing* what Putin demanded of them. *** Are you really making me use a phrase as tortured as “active actions”? Having to reduplicate the word “active” really goes to show the extent to which pro-Russian rhetoric seems to depend on destroying linguistic meaning.

Elsie Hupp

Before you trounce me for “turning on Liz”: in large part I agree with her assessment. (Everything more specific she has to say about the Western media establishment, for example, is spot on.) What I’m criticizing here is her inability to avoid vague, hackneyed talking points in the heat of the moment in this particular instance.

Sifl

The most important thing right now is to get everyone to stop fighting and to open up real diplomacy to resolve this crisis. Every major conflict of the post-cold war period could have been averted had there have been a serious commitment to a diplomatic resolution early in the conflict. This conflict may actually be the easiest to resolve as the benefits of lasting peace far outweigh a protracted conflict. That being said, there have been a lot of really bad takes on this conflict coming from the left that seem to be manufactured in order to stay consistent with previous (and justified) positions on Russiagate. Russia has as much to fear from NATO on its borders as the US had to fear from Sadam's no-existent WMDs. NATO and the West are no threat to Russia's internal security because Russia has nuclear weapons and would use them if there was ever a NATO incursion across Russian borders. This is about oil. Russia is heavily dependent on its oil economy and has seen its economy suffer significantly due to Saudi pumping in 2015 to break the US fracing industry and more recently when Saudis kept up production early in the pandemic, sending oil prices negative. Russia very much wants to end Saudi control of OPEC so it can keep oil prices high. This is why Russia supports Assad in Syria and Iran. Russia is free to intervene in support of Assad because of the nuclear stalemate with the West. And here is the point that most everyone has missed about Ukraine. The real reason Russia does not want NATO in Ukraine is that it would allow the West the opportunity to establish a boost phase missile defense system that could effectively eliminate the threat of a Russian nuclear attack. Russia correctly sees this as a first strike weapon because it would allow the US and nuclear NATO powers the opportunity to hit Russia with a nuclear attack while at the same time preventing a counter attack. Russia knows that if the US and NATO were able to place missile defense systems in Ukraine, Russia would no longer be able to do what it is doing in Syria and anywhere else in the Middle East where Russia wants to assert itself to try to break the Saudi hold over OPEC. Of course, the US and NATO do not want this military superiority so it can pressure the Saudi's to end the war in Yemen. The US wants this so that it can control the Middle East and go after Assad and Iran (and possibly even the UAE) to cement the Saudi's control over OPEC, which would effectively mean that the US and its allies control the Middle East. Russia sees the current situation of oil prices being subject to Saudi manipulation in an unending battle with US fracing production as an existential threat. The Russian economy almost crashed in 2015 and has yet to recover from oil prices crashing at the outset of the pandemic. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has been in the works for years. Russia has been moving its foreign reserves away from assets that can be captured through sanctions. There have been regular military exercises with Belarus to prepare for the invasion. I think what convinced Putin that this was the time he had to move was actually the near revolution in Kazakhstan in January. Kazakhstan has been suffering from the same ills as Russia. An economy battered by oil price shocks and growing inequality that is leaving many in economic disarray while a select few get very rich off of corruption and oil. Putin fears that if he is not able to get control over OPEC and keep oil prices stable (and as high as possible), he will face a popular revolt in Russia. The Russian people have been willing to look the other way as Putin has positioned himself as a dictator for life because Putin saved the country from the collapse under Yeltsin and up until 2015 had presided over very solid economic growth. Since 2015, Russia's economy has seen little growth and is still reeling from the pandemic. Putin is a student of Russian history and knows that the one thing Russians know how to do is revolution. Finally, NATO expansion is not one dimensional. While the US goal is to use NATO expansion to retain global hegemony via missile defense systems as noted above, there are definitely NATO members who genuinely fear Russia. People in Lithuania remember the Soviet incursion in 1991 very well and sought NATO membership in order to be free of Russian interference. Many of the newer NATO members share a history of Soviet invasion and know that without NATO's umbrella, their governments serve at the pleasure of Putin. Of course, NATO membership is really all these countries need. They do not need US bases or massive military budgets and certainly do not need to be a staging area for a missile defense system. So, in the end, this crisis is really about what most every crisis and conflict in the post-cold war era has been about. US attempts at perfecting hegemony versus Russian attempts to have its own sphere of influence in the Middle East and other regions to counter the US.

Don Workman

I liked your puppet show better than these types of comments

Elsie Hupp

Quick thing: your comment would be easier to read if you went back in and added paragraph breaks.

Don Workman

Elsie u r 2 caught up in political arrangements. In my area I can show u a good time aka let ur hair down a little bit. I spend my days fishen and playing the best music around….taken a hog ride in the sunset would do u GOOD!! U know who 2 call.

John Sanley

Nebraskan ag worker here; regarding grain - RUS and UKR provide 30% of global wheat and corn exports so it’s going to make commodity prices increase and US grain belt is entering a long term drought trend.

Elsie Hupp

My take on the US being the muscle behind NATO is that the ideal thing here would be an actually muscular Non-Aligned Movement. In a somewhat slightly different capacity, it’s worth mentioning that the role of the US (and France and UK) as it applies to the newer members of NATO is to provide a nuclear deterrent “umbrella” for the NATO members that themselves do not have nuclear weapons. Because of this, an unusual realist alternative I thought of is that there could be a parallel treaty organization explicitly for non-nuclear states who are not in a position to join NATO. If, say, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Romania were all in a non-nuclear mutual-defense act with Ukraine, while Ukraine itself was not part of NATO, a Russian invasion of Ukraine would trigger those non-nuclear NATO states intervening on Ukraine’s behalf, and if Russia engaged with those states on their own territory, that, in turn, would trigger a NATO intervention. The main advantages with this scenario would be that Ukraine could itself stay non-nuclear and could avoid direct a military alliance with the US that could threaten Russia’s nuclear deterrent. The main disadvantages would be that it may be difficult to keep such an alliance from creating conflicts of interest with the North Atlantic Treaty, but aside from that the actual text of the North Atlantic Treaty is pretty banal and doesn’t explicitly explicitly rule out anything along these lines: https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty

Elsie Hupp

Specifically with regard to Assad: Syria under Assad was already in a military alliance with Russia even before the outbreak of the Syrian Civil War—Syria hosting the Soviet naval base at Tartus starting in 1971 and the two countries signing a bilateral military treaty in 1980, with Syria recognizing Russia as the successor signatory in 1992—so the US would have had a hard time going after Assad directly, with or without the Syrian Civil War. (Note: while, yes, the US, France, and the UK did bomb targets they claimed were necessary to Syria’s chemical weapons program in 2018, these three countries have for the most part mutually avoided direct confrontation with Syria or Russia in the war against Daesh, and, indeed, Russia loudly complained about the 2018 airstrikes but otherwise did fuck-all.)

John McElroy

You are operating under the idea the US wants peace. They have long term goals here being achieved BECAUSE of this conflict they’ve created. 1. Mire Russia in another Afghanistan 2. Promote the need for NATO (weapons) 3. Send a message to Germany - trade 4. Start the unipolar world order counterrevolution before it’s too late They could give 2 fucks about EU, Ukrainians or the historic and agreed upon boundaries surrounding Russia’s vessel states - this is what they want - not peace Or it would have happened already - Russia waited 8 years before deciding they could wait no longer with Zelensky’s threat of nuclear attack and Azov running rampant in the Donbas

Elsie Hupp

“Zelensky’s threat of nuclear attack and Azov running rampant in the Donbas” Ummmm… clarification needed? Anyway, by all accounts Andriy Biletsky strongly opposes Ukrainian membership in NATO or the EU, though for (((coughs))) all the wrong reasons.

Elsie Hupp

My understanding is that the Russian military’s *toys* may be “10 years more advanced”, but their logistics make this entirely a moot point. Like apparently Russia isn’t even able to provide adequate food and water to its troops in the Donbas, as evidenced by these troops allegedly begging civilians for provisions.

Elsie Hupp

John—it’s laughable to consider Putin any more principled than any Western political leader. The main difference is that Putin is unable to keep from becoming a major character in his own story, which really speaks to Russia’s propaganda failures.

Elsie Hupp

What’s worse she doesn’t even bother to elaborate what said “red line” actually entailed. Even if she may be correct in some regards, she really did a bad job presenting a coherent point of view in this episode.

Elsie Hupp

DP—if you legitimately want to flirt with me, you can look me up on Instagram. (Or, if you don’t use Instagram, look me up on the TrueAnon Discord, though Instagram is preferable.)

nick tolliday

you know what, you’re right. vlad putin is a nice guy (who i would have a beer with) and i’m sick of seeing his character impugned!

Elsie Hupp

K Barlas—while I’d hesitate to say that any of the TrueAnon hosts like Putin, the same is clearly not true of everyone in this comment thread.

Elsie Hupp

John—kindly cite the actual text of Zelensky’s speech where he threatened to nuke Moscow. There seems to be contention over the implications of what he said, but you have yet to substantiate your claims with any primary sources.

Elsie Hupp

I found this episode rather depressing due to the fact that Liz has at least usually done significant research and prepared a coherent narrative, but here she has repeatedly fallen back on trite, meaningless platitudes. I’ve repeatedly commented this, but she does not actually seem to define “NATO provocation” or “Putin’s red line” in the specific context of the military buildup shifting to outright invasion. Everything she cites is old news. With regard to the balance between Liz and Brace, while I usually see Brace as embodying a sort of “younger brother sidekick” type in the Socratic dialogue, in this case it would have been better to hear from him, given that he has firsthand experience with war and she does not.

Elsie Hupp

Petter—as an American, I would say that our society values being opinionated for the sake of being opinionated, and this is especially true for American men. As I’ve gotten older I’ve discovered that life is much easier if one does not try to have an opinion on everything. For example, we can criticize Liz for her incoherent rhetoric without saying that everything she brings up is necessarily wrong. In general I would say her big-picture geopolitics are fairly okay, but she has struggled to respond to specific recent events without bringing up otherwise valid non-sequiturs.

Elsie Hupp

I’m not sure you’ve heard the expression “if you owe the bank $100,000, that’s your problem, but if you owe the bank $100,000,000, that’s the bank’s problem” but the US owes China $1,000,000,000,000 (ie a million million), so US sovereign debt is very, very much China’s problem.

ssj

Get their ass Liz!!!

John McElroy

Elsie, the NYT ran a Feb 20th story about Ukraine’s regret of giving up their nuclear capabilities - Zelensky (it’s under a paywall) claims they don’t have that weapon but received security guarantees to abandon enriching uranium - so that’s a joint - US-Ukraine statement allowing Zelensky to discuss nuclear weapons technology two days before the conflict on the 22nd And if you watch Putin’s speech, which I did you’ll see he references this capacity of Ukraine as only limited by enriched uranium - of which allies of Ukraine possess - and then Putin plainly says in his speech to the world that he is most concerned with eliminating Ukraine’s ability to threaten or execute a nuclear attack - this speaks to Russia’s decision to invade - the why now question - the timing and encouragement of this topic of conversation was known by US foreign policy figures to trigger Putin enough to invade - this is pretty clear of you followed this at the time. And now, we have Putin making it explicit that they are concerned and on high alert for nuclear warfare - this validates what Zelensky has been saying Furthermore, all of this could go away if Ukraine agreed to not be a NATO pawn and they ratify the Minsk accords that were agreed upon, as Zelensky was sold as a peace candidate but the fear is he may be worried that the Azov corps might come after him or worse the US state department if he settles with Russia for a ceasefire

Elsie Hupp

Basically all of the Russians I follow on social media have publicly disavowed the invasion, and lest anyone say “oh but Anglophone Russians are not to be trusted” half of these posts were exclusively in Russian (and literally none of them specifically named Putin).

Elsie Hupp

Drop the link here, and I’ll figure out the paywall. You still haven’t actually provided primary textual evidence to substantiate your earlier claim that Zelensky threatened to nuke Russia. (No, Putin’s speech is not primary textual evidence with regard to Zelensky’s speech. If you found a way to watch Putin’s speech I’m sure you can just as easily find an English transcript of Zelensky’s speech or run the original Ukrainian transcript through Google translate.)

John McElroy

There’s only one NYT Feb 20 article on Zelensky talking about nuclear weapons - maybe Thomas can find it (Edited:) - I cannot think of more relevant source than directly from the man himself - Putin speech sourcing and content -

Elsie Hupp

For someone so critical of the news you have done remarkably little to cite reliable primary sources to substantiate your own opinions. You do know that Patreon lets you put links in comments, right?

Elsie Hupp

John—please reply in thread here. If you tap your original comment, you should see a little “reply” (curly counterclockwise arrow) button that will let you post your response in place. This will make it easier for everyone to follow what you are saying. Anyway, in your out-of-thread response you mention an NYT link, and you mention watching Putin’s speech. Drop the NYT link here, and I’ll figure out the paywall. Putin’s speech, however, is not primary textual evidence with regard to Zelensky’s speech. If you found a way to watch Putin’s speech I’m sure you can just as easily find an English transcript of Zelensky’s speech or run the original Ukrainian transcript through Google translate. Again, I am asking you to provide primary textual evidence to substantiate your earlier claim that Zelensky threatened to nuke Russia. That is, please provide a direct quote of Zelensky, along with a link and a timestamp for the video where the quote can be verified.

Elsie Hupp

So what you’re saying is that you’re unwilling to cite Zelensky with regard to his own word, and instead you’re only willing to cite Putin’s response? Yes, I’m being pedantic. I’m being pedantic because you are repeatedly making unsubstantiated claims and then getting defensive rather than substantiating them.

John McElroy

What I’m saying is "______ " (edited) - and if you don’t believe I’m acting in good faith, then move on, but I'm pretty sure I am not the only one who believe this.

Elsie Hupp

“Oh shut the fuck up - I cannot think of a more relevant source than directly from the man himself - speech sourcing and content is too easy for you so fuck all the way off” So what you’re saying is that you’re unwilling to cite Zelensky with regard to his own words, and instead you’re only willing to cite Putin’s response? Yes, I’m being pedantic. I’m being pedantic because you are repeatedly making unsubstantiated claims and then getting defensive rather than substantiating them. As you said, “speech sourcing and content is too easy” so maybe you could actually do it yourself rather than demanding other people do your legwork for you?

John McElroy

The NYT article and the Putin speech are what I’m using - it’s clear, your position is not holding the US to account for obvious propaganda but you are willing to needle strangers on the internet for stronger associations/verification in perpetuity.

Elsie Hupp

meandmypalz—John is clearly unwilling to substantiate his claims—despite whining about everyone else for more or less the same reason—so I would hardly consider him a good-faith interlocutor. Of course, John’s rhetorical laziness needn’t reflect on Putin, but if John wants to defend Putin’s casus belli he’s doing a remarkably shit job of it.

Andy

I've been told by Ukrainian and Russian friends that the English-language reporting on Zelensky's Uranium comments is misleading and misses quite a bit of nuance that's fairly obvious in the native tongue. I speak neither language and can't personally confirm this.

John McElroy

Andy’s back - “told by friends” be careful Elsie will asking for their names, numbers and address to source that claim in a few minutes - oh wait that is the pro-western narrative - no she won’t On a heavier note, I hope they all safe and sound

Andy

It's really remarkable how willing people are to suggest that Ukraine's responsibility is to uphold former agreements, i.e. Minsk, even while those commitments are being actively violated, i.e. invasion. The anti-war stance isn't so much to absolve anyone of their responsibilities, it's to denounce the death of civilians and assess culpability for their danger.

Elsie Hupp

You’re adorable when you’re cornered. Willingness to source *one’s own claims* is really table stakes. Clearly if you are unwilling to do so, you should stop bluffing (and you’re doing a really bad job bluffing, at that). This isn’t to say that you shouldn’t have any opinions, period. This is to say that you shouldn’t complain about other people “bloviating” when you’re doing the exact same thing yourself. Bloviating doesn’t make you wrong. It just makes you a useless asshole.

Elsie Hupp

Yes, I should hold the US government to account *here and now* because Uncle Sam himself is yelling at me in the Patreon comments. No, your response here is not an obvious deflection from your own arrogance. Your response here is not a tu-quoque non-sequitur that has nothing to do with the merits of your beliefs and everything to do with how little it appears you actually care about them.

meandmypalz

john has been seething up this entire time. fucking pathetic.

Elsie Hupp

I already said this to someone else, but if you really want to flirt with me, you can find me on Instagram. 😘

John S

holy moly

John McElroy

Since the Western media (the Dulles brothers) has been in the pocket of US defense, and business interests, the ACTUAL words of our adversary matter - especially around the threat of nuclear weapons. Thus I think your claim that Putin’s speech doesn’t count as a source is complete horseshit and something worthy of being asked if you are apart of the mighty Wurlitzer yourself - https://thealtworld.com/andrew_korybko/russias-shock-awe-campaign-in-ukraine-aims-to-resolve-the-european-missile-crisis

Elsie Hupp

I definitely agree that cutting Russia off from SWIFT would be counterproductive, if only because the ordinary Russians it would most immediately penalize are the ones who make their living from foreign companies. (The specific example I’m thinking of here is YouTube Adsense revenue. If Anglophone Russian YouTubers get cut off from their paychecks, you can be sure they will very loudly complain about it.)

Elsie Hupp

So I guess you don’t like Brace’s Maoist-Third-Worldist perspective, then? In all fairness to Michał, mixing solid materialist analysis with absolute galaxy-brain takes is exactly what Radio Martí—oops, I mean Russia Today—does best.

Some Guy

Tbh haven't even listened to the episode, the real show is in the comments

Elsie Hupp

Again with the deflection! Listing a bunch of names isn’t the same thing as substantiating your claims. I don’t care who you follow on Twitter. “The ACTUAL words of our adversary matter”—now, assuming you’re referring to Zelensky here, it would be nice if could be bothered to provide those ACTUAL words. And, again, Putin’s speech is not a *primary* source with regard to Zelensky’s speech, and regardless of whether you agree with Putin, he clearly has a conflict of interest. With regard to directly quoting Zelensky, Putin is a *secondary* source. (Putin is however, obviously a primary source on *himself*.) Again, link us a video of Zelensky or an unedited transcript of Zelensky as a primary source. To reiterate: I don’t even think you’re behaving like this out of any desire to push an a priori conclusion. Rather, I think you’re behaving like these because you’re a just a pathetically stubborn jackass, and in so being you are probably Putin’s worst defender here.

John McElroy

I didn’t say cutting off Russia from swift was counterproductive. SWIFT as related to US/China-Russia strategy is the issue

John McElroy

Well Elsie, I wasn’t sure if you’d be on my dissertation committee or not on this thread and APA I normally use for citations is down at moment - but if you like we know our intelligence officials are reading our emails, posts, communications - maybe you could FOIA the CIA and see what that brings sweetie.

Elsie Hupp

One hopes there has got to be somebody better for the task of overthrowing the Great Satan than V. feckin’ Putin.

John McElroy

Gopher and Elsie, could you be any more pro-western biased? Weapons of Mass Destruction Syria, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Yemen Congo, Indonesia, Vietnam, Korea, Dirty Wars in Latin America Murders, Assassinations, Coups, Sanctions Hiroshima + Nagasaki Russiagate, Breaking Russia’s economy with Harvard PhDs, reneging on arms and post-WW2 pacts - and breaking countries all over the Middle East and Asia for sport. Before anyone here has a go with Putin and Russia - you should first be examining how YOUR government behaves before buying into US propaganda - it’s not like living in the US has been all that great considering 1. Removal Habeus Corpus 2. The Patriot Act 3. Collecting all of our data to use against us 4. Policing - George Floyd, Ahmed Arbury 5. Inflation between 5-7 percent 6. Failure of public health system pandemic 7. ZIRP fin policies - pushing equities 8. Pres circus that is Clinton-Trump-Biden So I’m asking you - when you got real evidence of short, long and medium term fuckery since 1944 in our country, why is it so easy for you to point the finger that the problem exists “over there”? Those who have most power, also have the most responsibility - and you guys think Blinken, Nuland and the prefabbed Bushies like Kagan, Frum from the 9/11 era are on the side of peace? How dumb can you be?

John McElroy

What? This has nothing to do with Brace or his perspective, which he is more than entitled to. This has to do with US lacing the dog food of political opinion with propaganda and so many are more than willing to lap it up as the most profound meal they’ve ever eaten. It’s pathetic

Elsie Hupp

Wait, so which people in the Ukrainian government are the Banderaites, again? Because if we look at the political parties involved, the ruling coalition are all bland CDU types, and the National Corps have precisely zero out of 450 seats in the Verkhovna Rada (along with 23 out of 158,399—or 0.015%—in local government). Yes, I’m sure there are plenty of neonazis in Ukraine, but it’s entirely unclear if they have even the level of support that neonazis have in Germany, France, or the UK. I would be more concerned about Marine Le Pen or Alternative für Deutschland or even Josh Hawley than I would be about neonazi influence in Ukrainian electoral politics. We in the West really do outperform in that regard.

John McElroy

No I said debate - not sell one version of a dominant perspective being peddled by the MSM using pedantry and tangents.

Elsie Hupp

The fact that “tankie” was originally a Trotskyist epithet for Stalinists aside, it should be worth mentioning when someone supports literally rolling in the tanks that maybe they’re at least somewhat on the nose? Like… even if you support Russia’s intervention in Ukraine, it’s hard to deny that they’re literally rolling in the tanks, ya know?

Kompromatic

Damn John weren’t you the one who commented asking if anyone wanted to have an actual debate/discussion? Someone gives you a reasonable response and your first reaction is to disparage them. Fuck off bro

Elsie Hupp

I have yet to see anyone plausibly suggest that there are more Ukrainian Nazis in Ukraine than in Canada or that Ukraine has anywhere near as influential a neonazi political movement as France or Germany does. (Or, you know, Russia: remember Dugin?) There are neonazis everywhere. The fact that a given country has neonazis does not in and of itself mean that the country next door (which also has neonazis) should intervene to throw them out. Rather, the second country should only intervene if the first country’s neonazis actually hold a meaningful amount of power and pose a threat to the second country. In the meantime it is much more effective to provide safe haven for refugees than to risk killing civilians. Again: neonazis are bad. What’s unclear is whether Ukraine’s neonazis are causing remotely as much trouble as neonazis elsewhere, to an extent that would justify a neighboring country (with its own neonazis!) invading. Most of the time invasions just make things worse.

John McElroy

No no no - why assume I’m talking about Zelensky as the adversary - definitely not. You have to actually see and hear what Putin says for himself is the point - you get so much wrong why would I spend more time engaging you, if every time I post you draw the absolute opposite conclusion For example - it is difficult to explain the last 85 years of US foreign policy in a text. My behavior is definitely one of a stubborn jackass because my background is in history, finance and the neoliberal turn - so when people appear demonstrably certain using social media lingo as a cudgel about sourcing - it’s enraging. And I’m not here for Putin - I’m here to get Putin right - not as a character in US themed foreign policy but someone who is just one person in a Russian country who has decided it’s over to deal with Americans, he’d rather the Chinese - kind of a fucking important thing to get right - and we know the New York Times track record on this kind of info

Elsie Hupp

Thanks. (I was being a bit lazy myself.) I just finished reading the transcript, and the relevant bit seems to be this: — Ukraine is doing everything possible to reach progress in discussions and political issues. In the TCG, in the Minsk process, we’ve put forward proposals – draft laws, but everything is blocked – no one talks about them. Ukraine demands to unblock the negotiation process immediately. But this does not mean that the search for peace is limited to it alone. We are ready to look for the key to the end of the war in all possible formats and platforms: Paris, Berlin, Minsk. Istanbul, Geneva, Brussels, New York, Beijing – I don’t care where in the world to negotiate peace in Ukraine. It does not matter if four countries, seven or a hundred participate, the main thing is that Ukraine and Russia are among them. What is really important is the understanding that peace is needed not only by us, the world needs peace in Ukraine. Peace and restoration of territorial integrity within internationally recognized borders. This is the only way. And I hope no one thinks of Ukraine as a convenient and eternal buffer zone between the West and Russia. This will never happen. Nobody will allow that. Otherwise – who’s next? Will NATO countries have to defend each other? I want to believe that the North Atlantic Treaty and Article 5 will be more effective than the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine has received security guarantees for abandoning the world’s third nuclear capability. We don’t have that weapon. We also have no security. We also do not have part of the territory of our state that is larger in area than Switzerland, the Netherlands or Belgium. And most importantly – we don’t have millions of our citizens. We don’t have all this. Therefore, we have something. The right to demand a shift from a policy of appeasement to ensuring security and peace guarantees. Since 2014, Ukraine has tried three times to convene consultations with the guarantor states of the Budapest Memorandum. Three times without success. Today Ukraine will do it for the fourth time. I, as President, will do this for the first time. But both Ukraine and I are doing this for the last time. I am initiating consultations in the framework of the Budapest Memorandum. The Minister of Foreign Affairs was commissioned to convene them. If they do not happen again or their results do not guarantee security for our country, Ukraine will have every right to believe that the Budapest Memorandum is not working and all the package decisions of 1994 are in doubt. — That’s the only part that references nuclear weapons, and all it asks is for the signatories of the Budapest Memorandum—who, to be clear, include Russia!—to come together in order to resolve the conflict. Regarding the Budapest Memorandum: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances — Anyway, now I’m really starting to wonder how Putin’s speech paraphrased this!

John McElroy

Thanks Paul for the speech - no Zelensky does not threaten nuclear weapon attack on Russia overtly (so I retract the definitiveness of my statement) but it appears people at the conference where he spoke believe he did threaten the possibility of acquiring nuclear weapons. see this - https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/596243-russia-response-was-needed-to-threat-of-ukraine-acquiring-nuclear He does say that they gave up nuclear weapons in return for NATO protection - which is a clear signal for Putin (what does protection really mean?) and a little bit later in the speech he says two important things 1. “I hope no one thinks of Ukraine as a convenient, eternal buffer state between the west and Russia. That will never happen; nobody will allow that. 2. “We don’t have weapon (nuclear) and we also do not have the security.” Combining this with Putin Feb 22nd speech where he delineates the history and reasons for invasion (denazification and removing structural/threats of nuclear attack) - it is not difficult to see the threat here. Zelensky is saying listen - we are never going back to being a buffer country - ever and we are here on your border - we are either gonna use our guarantees of security given to us or we should have never given away our nuclear capability - Is Putin wrong to see this as a threat? Remember, NATO has encroached upon its borders twice before 1999 and 2008. And after the events in Donbas and the Maidan plus the US back coup in 2014 - the Russians have been more patient than the US would be… so Putin knows he’s going to have to fight for Ukraine to go back to vessel state - or even break Ukraine - so that it never is a NATO country (DeFacto or real) It must be said additionally that this Ukraine position on not going back to pre-2014 status. or buffer state geopolitical role is choice that has been made not just in Ukraine but by US policy makers who are clearly pushing for this war

Elsie Hupp

I’m glad to see you discovered how to reply in thread for once! It’s not my job to make your conclusions intelligible. If you’re going to bloviate with muddled platitudes, you probably shouldn’t be posting at all. And as far as my grasp of US foreign history goes: again with the pathetically transparent deflection! My understanding of history or lack thereof has nothing to do with whether or not you are a good-faith participant in this conversation. You make a claim, and then you kill several trees refusing to substantiate it. If you want people here to take you seriously, you should be willing to make an argument in the first place. Clearly you would rather play the ego-wounded buffoon.

Elsie Hupp

I wasn’t talking to you, John. Be a good boy and wait your turn. As much as it may shock you to learn, it’s possible for someone to have conversations with more than one person at once. With regard to anecdotal evidence, though, I defy you to show how my response to Katie constitutes argumentation in the first place. No? It’s just an anecdote in response to another anecdote, without any further conclusions? How could that be?!?

Elsie Hupp

John—at this point you’re barely above word salad. I suggest you get some fresh air.

John McElroy

Elsie, you have tried to muddy the source of idea, which did not alter the meaning. Putin clearly believes there to be a nuclear threat at his border, and if you cannot read Zelensky's speech and read between the lines of his regret in giving away the nuclear program and not having the security he wants (all the while be the US boy in Ukraine), then any amount of sourcing is never going to be enough. Good luck with your life.

Elsie Hupp

John—I entirely fail to see how “you should be examining how YOUR government behaves” is in any way contradictory to “it’s laughable to consider Putin any more principled than any Western political leader”. The more flattering interpretation here is that you misunderstood the extent to which I agree with you. The less flattering interpretation is that you didn’t actually read what I wrote.

Elsie Hupp

John: “What? This has nothing to do with Brace or his perspective, which he is more than entitled to.” Despite your attempts to obfuscate the thread of conversation, you are clearly responding to this comment by Michał: “In general it's comical to see Brace saying just basic cautious things in the good direction and then be immediately bullied by Liz into accepting some contrarian galaxy brain takes that mix decent materialistic analysis with the stupidest RT talking points that are believed only by European far right and anglophone left.”

Elsie Hupp

John—I think you should look up the definition of the word “encroached”. This word does not mean what you think it means.

John McElroy

That’s all you got? Seriously - after 4 hours of haranguing me, not reading what is written, impugning me with comments like “deflecting” or “bad faith” and 35 posts in response to my comments about Ukraine this is all you have to say? Oh my goodness, this was a complete and utter waste of time - have a nice life - seriously

Elsie Hupp

(Patreon keeps eating my response, and anyway I had to step away from this comment thread because of a pre-scheduled video call.)

Elsie Hupp

Though in all fairness, thank you for continuing to engage with me. I was probably too hasty responding with, yes, a snarky one-liner. Sorry for that.

Elsie Hupp

Here's hoping this smaller chunk doesn't get eaten by Patreon: To answer your question, yes, Putin is wrong to portray Zelensky's speech in and of itself as a threat. As you yourself have seen from the full context, Zelensky repeatedly affirms that he is seeking a diplomatic solution, and he repeatedly frames Ukrainian military defiance in terms of *not* having NATO’s nuclear deterrent.

John McElroy

Yeah, no problem - you pegged me as arrogant and stubborn (and I can own that) - Not my best self or my best day, but sometimes the determination to keep trying prevails or at least in my own mind. Have a good one, Elsie - but no one elsie but you. In other news, American Exception podcast (@Aaron_Good_) asks the question: "Is any mainstream US outlet reporting on the nuclear blackmail aspect of NATO expansion? It seems that--like the inconvenient fact of the Nazi coup that birthed the current Ukraine regime--this element is being erased from the narrative by US propagandists, aka, the US media."

Elsie Hupp

However, you sort of kind of seem to be saying that Russia is justified in invading a sovereign country for the purpose of preventing it from signing one or more mutual defense treaties. Like, sure, we can debate the merits of those treaties—and nearly everyone here agrees that NATO is bad—but how does a sovereign country signing them have anything to do with the legitimacy of Russia’s intervention? Never mind that both treaties are still almost entirely hypothetical at this point!

Elsie Hupp

Regarding the 2014 coup: even if we accept that the coup was illegitimate, Ukraine has had two nation-wide elections since then, neither of which anyone seems to be meaningfully disputing. Yes, Crimea and the separatist-held parts of the Donbas did not participate in these elections, but this was entirely on account of Russia (and its separatist allies) blocking participation. Regardless of what you may think of the coup/revolution/whatever, it's really hard to pin the problems of those events onto Zelensky's administration.

Elsie Hupp

As a fellow arrogant, stubborn jackass, thank you again for canceling most of my other plans for me today! 😅 (FWIW I think we can also thank Paul Hays for actually going and looking up the actual text of Zelensky's speech.)

John McElroy

Agreed, Paul Hays deserves credit here - all it takes is one positive interaction to turn the tide! Let's hope we can serve as a model for Ukraine (not to be too flippant equating a mild internet argument with a possible world war - but the point remains repair is both necessary and possible.

Elsie Hupp

Personally I'm okay if you are? The nice thing about Patreon comment threads is that unlike on Twitter or Facebook they have all things considered an extremely small audience, and they aren't in any way search-indexed. (And I don't know if you knew this, but it's actually impossible for either of the two of us to block each other on Patreon: for better or worse, you can only block people on Patreon if you're a "creator" account. Don't ask me how I know this, lol.) If you need anything else, you can reach out to me privately... somehow. I'm on the TrueAnon Patreon Discord, if that's easy for you. Otherwise you can send me a Discord friend request at @elsiehupp#8700 (since Discord only lets you DM people people with whom you are Discord friends or share a server) or join the WTYP Discord and find me there: https://discord.com/invite/WE6Hk5a (Yes, I have other means of contact, but Discord is the easiest to put out there.)

John McElroy

I appreciate this, and yeah I am good. Had no idea about the rules of patreon or how its used tbh. I am not on social media at all - for which I am sure your generation would thank mine (stay in your lane old man type thing). I think for now, I think I got some great advice from someone I met today --- who said I needed a fresh breath of air and walk away from the keyboard. And that's what I'll do. Cheers But before I go, here is a little bit of hypocrisy for us Americans to celebrate :) https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1498236545584697345

Elsie Hupp

👁️ Ghislaine Maxwell Trial: Day 60 👁️

malpertuis

I want.a "deboonker" hat, but I dont know how its spelt.

Elsie Hupp

Salt is also good for low blood pressure.

itsjenjen

wow a happy ending

Elsie Hupp

I guess nobody's here for the sickos anymore... tsk tsk tsk

Elsie Hupp

#PosadasDidNothingWrong

Elsie Hupp

Clearly Russia is 10 years ahead of the US in that the US has yet to develop its own Havana Syndrome gun yet. 😉

Elsie Hupp

In Soviet Russia post comment "first" on YOU!

Anna

This was an interesting episode. I'm glad Liz didn't apologize. What did we know? But what are Liz's sources that the Russian tech army is ten years ahead of the US.

Elsie Hupp

If you're curious, here are some examples: Roman Abalin (2022-02-19): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK2mWmuEFBg Roman Abalin (2022-02-24): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oULSBdQb-U Roman Abalin (2022-02-24): https://www.instagram.com/p/CaW7SlbIWKq Antreprener (2022-02-24): https://www.instagram.com/p/CaWu5MPg4ef Nikolai Karpov (2022-02-24): https://www.instagram.com/p/CaW8LHrs1V7 Arseniy Kotov (2022-02-24): https://www.instagram.com/p/CaW9I9pI18I Kirill Shcherbina (2024-02-24): https://www.instagram.com/p/CaWcaD2Li7u Antreprener (2022-02-27): https://www.instagram.com/p/Caetku-Ap01 Piterville Productions (2022-02-27): https://www.instagram.com/p/CaesH-2rC3_ Lana Sator (2022-02-27) https://www.instagram.com/p/Cae8n2sAfaP Siberia Inside (2022-02-27): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn8Era6kt0Q

Bobby Volcano

Cosmologists wonder whether our observable universe is just a local pocket that started expanding within a larger superuniverse, but a lot of people are now saying it actually expanded from the patreon comments of a supertrueanon

Elsie Hupp

What happened before the supertrueanon? Only the Bogdanov brothers can say…

BruceInAdelaide

Thanks Elsie, for being so intelligent, relevant and fact grounded when replying! You will not be surprised if I think that China is in a better position than the US right now? Yes, you are correct, China does not want to collapse the US dollar, or the US's ability to make some at least partial repayments. The thing about Neo Conservative international adventures, is they do not work. They end in quagmire and lead to defeat. The US dollar, let's face it, is no longer mostly "printed", it exists only as an exponentially enlarged digital creation, relies on US armed might to back it. That military power is looking toothless now. Disconnecting Russia from SWIFT, only grows the number of nations already leaving US dollar transactions. Once again Elsie, you are a very interesting person to exchange ideas with!

Elsie Hupp

Regarding Patreon: it’s not just you. Patreon has an extremely janky website, and the Patreon mobile app is almost unusable at times. Discord is basically an IRC clone, and it’s a lot less janky than Patreon, so if you used IRC like twenty-plus years ago, it might be easier for you to figure out! Figuring out how to link up Patreon to Discord for the TrueAnon Discord server might be a bit complicated, but as far as these things go the WTYP Discord server is also full of super nice people. (WTYP is a leftist podcast about engineering disasters, but you don’t have to support them on Patreon or even listen to the podcast in order to interact with their Discord.) Regarding staying in one’s lane: I’m in an odd micro-generation, in that I remember life before the internet, but it sounds like you’re older than I am. I just checked, and apparently I’m two years older than Brace, but Wikipedia doesn’t give the ages of Yung Chomsky and Liz. Regarding fresh air: I should be getting more myself, but I’m recovering from surgery, so I’ve just been a lump on the sofa for much of the past two weeks. (I’m recovering quite well, though.)

BruceInAdelaide

International Law provides for the right of a nation to intervene in another where, that nation is preparing to attack it. It is a bit like the law of self defense for the individual, you do not have to wait until you are hit, if the assault is imminent.

BruceInAdelaide

International Law provides for the right of a nation to intervene in another where, that nation is preparing to attack it. It is a bit like the law of self defense for the individual, you do not have to wait until you are hit, if the assault is imminent.

Elsie Hupp

I went to an industrial dance club in LA called Das Bunker a few times like fifteen years ago: https://dasbunker.org/ (I find industrial music strangely relaxing.)

Elsie Hupp

If anyone is looking for an independent counterpoint to The Grayzone, Bellingcat apparently has a positive reputation, and I haven’t heard anyone seriously call them a CIA front (yet): https://www.bellingcat.com/ Notably, Bellingcat scrupulously documents and aggregates primary source information, and indeed the US military has stated that Bellingcat’s publications make their own PR easier, as they can just cite Bellingcat rather than revealing their own sources. (I can’t speak to the general reliability of The Grayzone, but their reputation seems to lean towards biased editorialization rather than aggregating primary sources. This is not to say that they’re right or wrong in their reporting, just that they have a very different format than Bellingcat does.) Anyway, the deal with Bellingcat is that they provide such a flood of data that they’re very difficult to cast as misinformation.

BruceInAdelaide

Hi Elsie, Bellingcat have been called a CIA op since they started!

Elsie Hupp

Yes, clearly the preemptive-strike doctrine went well for George W. Bush. Anyway, I kind of don’t remember anyone making a case that Ukraine was preparing to attack Russia, aside from RT’s tortured interpretation of Zelensky’s speech on February 19th, which we’ve already discussed here. If you have any substantial allegations to add, please do share them, so that we can get to the bottom of this. (Even if the TrueAnon Patreon comment section can’t broker a lasting peace under the Budapest Memorandum, we can probably at least broker a truce in this particular comment thread.)

John McElroy

Now I know why I’ve been hitting my head against a wall today 😂 Bruce thank you - still Elsie deserved better but it explains a lot

John McElroy

It reminds me of the old Upton Sinclair quote - “how do you get a man to understand something when they are getting paid to not understand it.” - Our entire defense apparatus, state department, military, NATO think tanks , Atlantic Council advisors and intelligence officers in media (Bellingcat - funded by the CIA cutout National Endowment for Democracy - also responsible lying about the OPCW report) is premised on the need for weapons, newer equipment to send to NATO Allie’s or installed leaders to protect against the big bad boogeyman Russians - but little to no mention of how when Russia was at its worst moments in their history - we either did nothing (even had some US companies secretly trading with Nazis during WW2 or we totally wrecked their economy like Augustus Busch III on a fraternity party binge.

Elsie Hupp

Bruce—it looks like you left two copies of your comment, so FYI I left my response on the one I saw first, which was the one you posted out of thread below.

HATERSLAYER420

just did a second listen of this one, instead of reading the 500 (jesus christ) comments you could listen to the last 10 minutes and have them all summed up for you. 54:07 is especially... idk, enlightening? funny? depressing? accurate? all of the above?!?! lol see u guys next week 🥱😴

Elsie Hupp

I think we can all agree that the West is much, much better at propaganda than its adversaries are. Perhaps this is due to the fact that our economy largely revolves around the production of said propaganda, but the weird thing about the West is the extent to which we believe our own lies.

Elsie Hupp

The fascinating thing with Bellingcat’s approach, though, is that they apparently make it quite easy to fact-check their reporting, which, again, makes it much harder to call it FUD. (And if Bellingcat’s reporting is, indeed, FUD, it’s remarkably impressive FUD.)

justdave

In the posting war, we are all casualties

Elsie Hupp

Two things: First, I haven’t actually read Bellingcat, or The Grayzone, and I barely follow the NYT. (The NYT has local restaurant reviews for NYC, and I’ve been to a restaurant like twice in the last two years; what can I say. Metropolitan Diary is reliably cute, though.) Second, if you want to quote me on my actual opinion: The Russian intervention in Ukraine is stupid and bad for everyone involved. The end.

Elsie Hupp

I like telling people that their first mistake was using Twitter in the first place.

Elsie Hupp

So, apropos of nothing, here’s a beautiful painting by an artist in Yekaterinburg named Alfia Tvorit (альфия творит): https://www.instagram.com/p/CaU6NHygMPW If you don’t have an Instagram login, I uploaded it privately to Imgur: https://imgur.com/a/hhypipD Anyway, my level of proficiency in Russian is somewhere around the level of «Я не знаю ету кошку» apologies for my terrible spelling and grammar, lol.

Elsie Hupp

Incidentally one of the few restaurants I’ve been to in the past two years is Veselka, in the East Village: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veselka I wouldn’t mind going back there sometime soon, but it’s a little out of the way for me.

Katie

<3 This is my birth place and the place I am named after thank you for sharing! :)

Elsie Hupp

S14 seems awfully… pleasant. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S14_(Ukrainian_group) Nonetheless, they received 1.6% of the vote in the 2019 elections, so they’re not exactly your Marine Le Pen (33.9% in 2017) or Alternative für Deutschland (12.6% in 2017 and 10.3% in 2021). Granted, the main reason groups like the National Bolshevist Party or The Other Russia don’t have polling results to compare here is that… Russia doesn’t have free elections to begin with.

Katie

I don't understand the meaning of your post. Yes, most russians I know are very anti-Invasion, and pro-Ukraine and they are not doing this in English but in Russian too (some of them don't even speak English). But what is the point of your post?

Katie

I mean, how is it new? Why are Americans so shocked? For as long as I have been conscious every person I know has been anti-Putin. Every election year we've had the same conversation and it has been a running joke that no one anyone knows has voted for him or his party. Maybe a couple of radical politics-headed people, but a far more significant minority than what exists in America for Bush or Biden or Trump or Obama. Mainstream russian media makes fun of his botox for years before Americans started doing it. Every criticism and joke you guys have heard we heard it 5 years prior. So why are all these Russiawatchers so surprised to find out that Russians are not like Americans who mostly supported the Iraq invasion, but in Russia exists a culture of deep government and political distrust?

Katie

Andy yes, the coverage on both sides and the translations have been awful. nearly everything has been perverted to suit the Western media narrative which is to make this as entertaining, black-and-white, unnuanced as possible and get people clicking and commenting. I saw this in the translations of putin's speech and the day-to-day reporting on what the Ukrainian MOD are saying...

Tron Quip

The idea that Russia isn't itself deeply fascist in attitude and organization is ridiculous. Yes there are fascist brigades in Ukraine that need desperately to be eliminated. No, a Russian victory would not reduce the overall amount of fascism in Ukraine, but increase it. Both are shitty, but fascists blowing each other up is no bad thing.

phil

spider network stuff was all abstract & past tense. now that things are happening liberals are following their contractual obligation to become fascists

Don Workman

Like half these comments are from the same 5 people

Daniel

Rumor has it if you closely read all 520 comments and then critically engage with the content of the pod, the true form of God will reveal Herself to you… tread carefully dear reader

John McElroy

Just in - Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said on Tuesday that the "real danger" of Ukraine acquiring nuclear weapons required a response from Moscow, Reuters reports. "Today, the dangers that [Ukrainian President] Zelensky's regime pose for neighboring countries and international security in general have increased substantially after the authorities set up in Kyiv have embarked upon dangerous games related to plans to acquire their own nuclear weapons," Lavrov said while speaking at a disarmament meeting in Geneva, according to the news service. "Ukraine still has Soviet nuclear technologies and the means of delivery of such weapons. We cannot fail to respond to this real danger," Lavrov added. https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/596243-russia-response-was-needed-to-threat-of-ukraine-acquiring-nuclear

John McElroy

Combined with NATO's historic incursion to the east onto Russia's borders - this is was known to be something that would trigger a response from Russia since they voice concerns after the public burning of Russian speaking Ukranians in the Donbas after the Maidan coup in 2014 (a Nuland operation). But we have 14 new members to NATO in this region - and so this war began long before Russia crossed Ukrainian borders ----> Hunter Biden on board of directors of energy companies (85K/month), Russiagate, backing out of arms treaties agreed upon decades ago. Here is a nice little map for readers to see why Russia (might be a bit pissed - and feel threatened). https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/4956/production/_122647781_nato_member_states_10jan_map640-2x-nc.png And when you combine this with the strategic targeting of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline between Germany and Russia, the threats to take Russia and China off of the SWIFT financial clearing system for currency, trade etc., and the fear that the US would have if the world order became multipolar (because then there would be consequences for their past and current actions all over the globe) --- now you start to understand why the NYT, BBC, WashPo, Time, Athletic events, Woke corporate media, and all of the creepy crawlers from the worst parts of the State Department, RNC, DNC and intelligence only spin this world historical event --- in only one way. This is a great example of hypocrisy having Condi Rice talking about war crimes.

Elsie Hupp

And now you’re number 6.

Elsie Hupp

What is “listening” to a “podcast”? I do not know what these words mean.

Elsie Hupp

Ukraine having nuclear weapons is old news. Ukraine was a nuclear state for decades, until it signed the Budapest Memorandum, in which Russia (along with other nuclear states) agreed to: 1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders. 2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. 3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics. 4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used". 5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. 6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments. (Summary taken from Wikipedia. This doesn’t seem like the sort of thing Wikipedia would lie about, but I could look up the full text if you really want me to.) Russia using the Budapest Memorandum as the basis for a military intervention into Ukraine against the wishes of its internationally recognized government is preposterous on the face of it. (By contrast, the recent Russian intervention in Kazakhstan was at the very least at the request of Kazakhstan’s internationally recognized government.) Note that none of this has anything to do with what one might think of Ukraine’s, Kazakhstan’s, or anyone else’s internationally recognized government. I am solely speaking about the moon logic of taking an appeal to the Budapest Memorandum as a threat of rearmament and consequently a casus belli. Really, Lavrov, Putin, dearies, you can do better.

John McElroy

Quoting the NYT, Bellingcat, and Wikipedia when the dominant narrative is Putin the aggressor by 95% of the MSM - and then coming into each of my threads and trying to change the narrative - shows how weak and feeble the US case really is - they have to use vessels like yourself to produce this kind of fiction or it falls flat - since 1997 - NATO (the US’s private army) has expanded eastward into 14 countries not including Belarus or Ukraine - straight out of Brzezinki playbook Yesterdays news indeed. Proof that the US knew their actions would lead to war - US diplomat to Russia and CIA director William S Burns wrote a telex called “Nyet means Nyet” where the Russians draw the line at Belarus and Ukraine - the US has known about Putin’s red line since 2008 (according to leaked cables published by Wikileaks - which makes sense why US establishment want him dead). Anyhow, we pursued this war and picked the exact time when China-Russia are dating (chose the right people in the State department to take this stupid project on and integrate clandestine services to aid the Ukrainian nationalist who we’ve been flooding arms to), while Europe sits back and does very little except pearl clutch, waive red and black flags and buy nazi paraphernalia on google. All the while, little mention of Kazakhstan coup a few months back - this is a US -Russian war and we should just own it

Elsie Hupp

It’s important to recognize that (a) NATO accession is entirely voluntary on the part of the country joining and that (b) NATO deaccession is exclusively voluntary on the part of the country leaving. The Great Satan did not invade invade any of the post-Soviet states that decided to join it. The post-Soviet states that decided to join the Great Satan individually invited it in. You know, like a vampire: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MustBeInvited The Great Satan cannot unilaterally expel any of the post-Soviet states that decided to join it. The post-Soviet states that decided to join the Great Satan must voluntarily individually withdraw in order to leave. This is all in the text of the North Atlantic Treaty itself (well, aside from the “Great Satan” bit, which if we’re being honest is a bit unfair to Satan, but I digress). There’s a big difference between what the North Atlantic Treaty explicitly requires NATO member states to do and what its member states choose to do on top of that. https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty None of this is to say that NATO is a *good thing.* Rather, NATO is just not a very good metonym for postwar capitalist imperial alliances in general, and indeed relatively few of America’s international misadventures have been under NATO’s banner, rather than America’s other capitalist imperial alliances. Again, this doesn’t speak to the merits of the Russian intervention in Ukraine; it just speaks to sloppy rhetoric on the part of Russian public relations.

Elsie Hupp

Katie—if you look me up on Instagram (I’m “Elsie Hupp”)—I can send you links to some of my other favorite Russian artists on there, as well.

John McElroy

We should avoid the fiction here and own our role in this up front, Own the Maidan, Own the coup, own the CIA’s role in destabilizing this region, RAND Corporation did in 2019 - the US military’s research arm - its titled EXTENDING RUSSIA, competing from advantageous ground. rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR3000/RR3063/RAND_RR3063.pdf

Elsie Hupp

Hi John! 👋🏻 I hope you slept well. (I’m getting my fresh air in a bit when I head into Manhattan for two doctors’ appointments.) I haven’t actually quoted the NYT or Bellingcat (I linked the NYT article largely as an annoying joke that Putin should take out Nick Fuentes), and I’ve only quoted Wikipedia with an offer to look up the original source if you distrust their summary, which you haven’t bothered to ask me to do. (Yesterday you refused to look up a primary source yourself, and today you refuse to even ask me to do so for you. Really?) Anyway, do you have any response to the actual substance of what I’ve said? We both know you can do better.

John McElroy

Hey Elsie, wish you well with fresh air and medical issues - my reaction is more that we are consuming two very different types of information sources - but it nothing that we have to argue over about for 4 hours - it’s enough for me to cite the Dr Mearsheimers, Dr Hudson’s, Amaja Baraka’s, Dr Aaron Good, Dr Anthony Monteiro’s, Mark Ames, Matt Taibbi’s, Yves Smith’s, Aaron Mate’s, Max Blumenthals, Caitlin Johnstone’s, Alan McLeod’s, Pepe Escobar’s of the world who are damn good at what is a dying profession than to regurgitate state driven propaganda in corporate media silos. It’s enough to know who my people are - and I’m shocked that how little people know about Russia, beyond what is fed to them in their feeding bowl Good luck and peace

Elsie Hupp

Also by all accounts much of the armament flowing into Ukraine is from Western European arms manufacturers by way of West European governments. The EU is much more of a direct player at the moment than NATO is, the big difference being that the EU excludes the US (and Canada), while NATO does not (NATO being only explicitly limited in scope to North America, Europe and the Atlantic Ocean north of the Tropic of Cancer). Additionally, a number of non-NATO and non-EU states (though most of them US allies) have announced sanctions against Russia: Indonesia, Japan, Monaco, South Korea, and the historically neutral countries Ireland and Switzerland. A much larger number of non-EU, non-NATO countries have verbally condemned Russia without announcing sanctions. Again, this is to say that NATO is a dubious metonym in this particular instance, and even the EU isn’t a great metonym, either.

Elsie Hupp

Personally I’m consuming as little information about the facts on the ground as possible, just enough to come to the conclusion that it doesn’t seem to be going great for either Ukraine or Russia. In general I think it’s appropriate to cite Wikipedia in casual conversation when it comes to easily verifiable (and relatively non-contentious) facts, such as a summary of the text of the Budapest Memorandum or a list of international reactions to the Russian intervention. (For the text of the North Atlantic Treaty I cited a different Wikimedia site, Wikisource, which aggregates primary sources, but even then it’s fairly easy to verify the official text of a major 20th century treaty.) Yes, in the grand scheme of things NATO and the EU are almost certainly not great, especially in their history after the collapse of the Soviet Union. I would just encourage you to be more precise about easily verifiable (or debunkable) facts, as well as secondhand interpretations based on those facts. Like I said earlier, Russia’s PR game is shit, and consequently using them as a source actually probably makes them look worse than the broader history otherwise would. Though, yes, we probably agree on >95% of this; I just find Russian PR deeply annoying, lol. And thank you for your kind words.

Elsie Hupp

Yes, the RAND Corporation is certainly one of the Great Satan’s more demonic courtiers, and thank you for reposting the link. (I googled it after someone mentioned it yesterday, but I haven’t read it, yet.) Speaking of the RAND Corporation, Putin really seems to be testing the limits of game theory here, don’t you think?

Elsie Hupp

Thus far I’ve only found one major set of rationales*** I consider plausible for the Russian intervention in Ukraine (excluding Russian nationalism and excluding anything related to the Minsk agreements, as, trust me, you really don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of trying to defend the separatist leaders, here). These are adapted from a part of Sifl’s earlier comments, which, rather auspiciously, no one actually bothered to refute. (1) Ukraine could allow NATO to station interceptor missiles in Ukraine that would diminish Russia’s nuclear deterrent against Western Europe. (2) Ukraine could allow NATO to station nuclear weapons in Ukraine, in a manner similar to Turkey, which by virtue of their closer proximity would have first-strike ability against Russia. (3) Ukraine joining NATO would lead to US nuclear hegemony. My responses to these are as follows: (1) Removing the first-stage nuclear deterrent against Western Europe (but not against the US) is only a bad thing if you are Doctor Strangelove. (2)(a) Russia, the US, and the UK could have met in Budapest in 1994 in order to negotiate a way of preventing this from happening. Too bad they didn’t! (2)(b) Why doesn’t Russia just try stationing nukes in Cuba all over again? (2)(c) Are we just going to pretend Russia probably doesn’t already have nuclear submarines off the tip of Long Island? (3)(a) India, Pakistan, and Israel do exist, and while all three of these countries are “friendly” with the United States, none of them have mutual-defense treaties with the US on the level of NATO, and it’s even less plausible that they would sign mutual-defense treaties with each other. (3)(b) China, much? Because none of these rationales quite add up on their own, one can hand-wave and pretend that they somehow add up together, but no one has seriously tried to convince me that they actually do. My take based on these is that Putin made a strategic blunder by intervening in Ukraine in 2014, by virtue of the fact that doing so undermined the Budapest Memorandum, and that nearly a decade on he’s desperate and still a strategic idiot. *** A rationale isn’t a moral judgement; it’s just an explanation that doesn’t entirely insult one’s intelligence.

Elsie Hupp

I don’t think I specifically framed it this way earlier, but I do not consider the neonazis on either side to be a plausible rationale for the Russian intervention so much as idiots solely useful for propaganda.

Jacob Burkhalter

I almost crashed my car when I heard her say that.

HATERSLAYER420

Elsie and John are creating the ONLY Anti-Reply-function podcast fighting the Terminally Online

rtlsnk

Elsie and John should make out.

DH

I didn't think it was possible for a trueanon comment section to be worse than the one where you guys said you weren't gonna vote for Joe Biden but I've been blown away. Huge congrats to all involved

BruceInAdelaide

Check out Chris Hedges, Pullitzer prize winner, 12 years a NYTs foreign correspondent, now in Scheerpost, "Democrats, The More Effective Evil"

HATERSLAYER420

i had such a feeling of deja vu reading these and couldnt place why - i totally forgot how fuckin insane the comments from the election episode(s) were. i wonder how many of them are still around? seems like every other week there's the "this was the last straw, bye" pseudo self-effacing bullshit lol. maybe im repeating the cycle by whining but... comments like that have always reeked of the classic reactionary need to make everything about themselves. like motherfucker just unsubscribe and move on, you don't have to eulogize everything. it doesn't look cool and i don't know who it's for other than themselves. feels narcissistic - maybe that's too strong, maybe their heart is in the right place... maybe lol. idk. sorry for hijacking your comment lol and thanks for accidentally making me feel less crazy by pointing that out!

a clash of purple

Five hundred comments? I'm not reading all that...

Bent Mind

I wanted a follow up on that as well.

Jessica S

Well said. It really is all about the “take”, isn’t it? All of the handwringing over getting the right takes, the moralizing, the owning of those who were wrong, the virtual signaling on hyperdrive - it’s all forms of trying to define what’s “just” so they can be behind it for everyone to see. Of course there is no just war, and any opportunity to cease blood shed should be taken even if you have to concede some ideals. Stopping the violence is the only ideal, and you work from there. Diplomacy has dissolved into a purity test, you can’t concede anything or you’ll look inconsistent or something. That’s only important to those removed from the situation. If I were in a war zone, I think I’d be happy with anything that would stop the bombing and shooting. It’s obscene to see people far removed from that point go on and on about the right way to bring peace. I have two young kids, 11 and 7, and I tell them over and over: there is no path to peace. Peace is the path. I can’t remember who said it, but there’s a quote that says something like the most disingenuous peace is always better than the most just war. People think they are so special because they won’t comprise, but it actually is what makes them such monsters. My 7 year old said “they teach us in school that you should always be kind to others and that’s how you work things out. It doesn’t always work and you don’t always get what you want.” She stopped for a moment and confessed that sounds cheesy but “still, you can’t ever give up on kindness.” It’s sad that we can’t keep it that simple. It really should be that simple.

Elsie Hupp

Oops: https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html Since Google Translate doesn't like the Internet Archive, I had to manually copy and paste and all that, but here goes: 08:00 26.02.2022 The offensive of Russia and the new world View of the center of Kyiv. February 25, 2022 - RIA Novosti, 1920, 02/26/2022 © REUTERS / Valentyn Ogirenko A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era - and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, internal Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system - but this is worth talking about separately a little later. Russia is restoring its unity - the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe in our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a great cost, yes, through the tragic events of a virtual civil war, because now brothers, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies, are still shooting at each other, but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness, gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, then we would not only betray the memory of our ancestors, but would also be cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land. Vladimir Putin has assumed, without a drop of exaggeration, a historic responsibility by deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia - for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the West to put pressure on us, is only the second most important among them. The first would always be the complex of a divided people, the complex of national humiliation - when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then was forced to come to terms with the existence of two states, not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Russia," or to gnash one's teeth helplessly, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine." Returning Ukraine, that is, turning it back to Russia, would be more and more difficult with every decade - recoding, de-Russification of Russians and inciting Ukrainian Little Russians against Russians would gain momentum. And in the event of the consolidation of the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine, its return to Russia would become completely impossible - it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc. Now this problem is gone - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be reorganized, re-established and returned to its natural state of part of the Russian world. Within what boundaries, in what form will the alliance with Russia be consolidated (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russia. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end. And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage - the West sees the return of Russia to its historical borders in Europe. And he is loudly indignant at this, although in the depths of his soul he must admit to himself that it could not be otherwise. Did someone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believe that Moscow would give up Kyiv? That the Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control of European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only thanks to the unification of Germany, which took place according to the good Russian (albeit not very smart) will. To swipe after that also on Russian lands is not even the height of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe in particular, did not have the strength to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. In order not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools. More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it did not work should have been clear twenty years ago. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even the deaf could hear - Russia is returning. Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of the western space to the east. Seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this has not been the case for a long time - the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No amount of Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. There will be losses from the sublimation of confrontation on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation incurs huge costs - and the main ones are not at all economic. Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy - the German project of European integration does not make strategic sense while maintaining the Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. Yes, and it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But Europe needs autonomy for another reason as well — in case the States go into self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving. But the confrontation with Russia, into which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives the Europeans of even the chances of independence - not to mention the fact that in the same way Europe is trying to impose a break with China. If now the Atlanticists are happy that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then in Berlin and Paris they cannot fail to understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new iron curtain on their eastern borders - realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (more precisely, half a millennium) of global leadership is over in any case - but various options for its future are still possible. Because the construction of a new world order - and this is the third dimension of current events - is accelerating, and its contours are more and more clearly visible through the spreading cover of Anglo-Saxon globalization. A multipolar world has finally become a reality - the operation in Ukraine is not capable of rallying anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world sees and understands perfectly well - this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world. China and India, Latin America and Africa, the Islamic world and Southeast Asia - no one believes that the West leads the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not only challenged the West, it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, naturally, together with the West (united or not) - but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

Elsie Hupp

He has yet to slide into my Instagram DMs, so 🤷🏻‍♀️

Elsie Hupp

I always found the “Biden will be worse than Trump” argument more respectable than “waaaaah my bourgeois vanity I’m voting for the Greens”.

Oby Arnold

I’m sorry, every take out of Liz mouth was half bullshit. I think she’s coming from a good place, but buying into Russian Kabuki theater is just as stupid as nato’s. The idea that the us could end this war tomorrow without Ukraine losing sovereignty is absurd. There’s no easy answer here, it’s critical to remain anti war, and this invasion is just more of the same imperialism that NATO countries do everyday. Its the same. The enemy of my enemy is also sometimes a piece of shit. It’s like the dummies can’t hold both without reflexive accusing the other of apologia.

rtlsnk

Lol thus guy thinks ukraine had sovereignty

a clash of purple

stop talking oh my god, all of you either go get a life or kill yourselves (except BruceInAdelaide, he's cool :) )

Peacock Jive

Liz is correct. Didn't know half of the ta audience were mouth breathing liberals.

John McElroy

Agree Bruce is cool but telling strangers to go kill yourselves is a major problem - indifference is how we got here to this point of nuclear powers conflict via Ukrainian proxy. You see, if you do not personally enjoy reading this thread, you can just choose not to - and then not be put out and offer the most ignorant idea of these 550+ posts. How about you just stop reading it first

Tanya Finder

It really comes out when there’s a perceived threat to western hegemony and our comfort

Tanya Finder

Social media really has broken peoples brains. Everyone is so hyper aware of hindsight, everyone feels they have to be an expert, everyone wants to find the one “true” perspective. I see myself so it to a degree. But unfortunately events like these are the culmination of generations of the machinations of imperialism. The US has created such fucking twisted situations in its quest to obliterate communism/socialism off the face of the planet. And the ruling classes are so fucking isolated in their own society, their minds are so fucking distorted, they have no concept of suffering, or environmental destruction, or even what the fuck the end game is, not to mention half of them literally have dementia. For my own sanity I refer back to anarchist theory to remind myself how human beings are meant to live, although it’s generally more depressing. A little Malatesta or Goldman would do a lot of these commenters some good though lol

sandro

I think there's a difference between justification and rationale in this case. Putin's rationale makes sense -- NATO is encircling Russia, he wants to bring glory back to the country, Ukraine has been treated as a de facto NATO member, whatever. But there's not a justification for invading a sovereign country. We're definitely ignoring the rationale for his invasion, but there's no way to justify what he's doing to Kharkiv or Kiev rn.

Katie

Amen Tanya and Peacock Jive...

Natalie

welp looks like we’ve solved it. great work everyone

John McElroy

Captain Steubing wants you to refill the glasses for Isaac ASAP, Gopher.

Don Workman

Yo John just because people don’t want to go back and forth in the podcast comments doesn’t mean they’re indifferent. What you’re doing is dorky as hell but if it brings you peace keep on truckin’ brother.

Elsie Hupp

You’re quoting TeleSUR’s paraphrase of Zelensky rather than quoting Zelensky himself. We’ve been over this. (Yes, I know there were plenty of off-the-record conversations aside from the speech, but TeleSUR doesn’t say that this comes from one of those.) And, of course, while we’re all partial to our friends the Bolivarians, TeleSUR clearly comes to this story with just as much of a bias as anyone else.

Elsie Hupp

Sean, You might dispute the de facto sovereignty of any one country in the EU or NATO, but legally speaking, Russia the UK, and the US all agreed to the following in the Budapest Memorandum (1994): "The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the CSCE Final Act, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine." https://undocs.org/CD/1285 From the CSCE Final Act (signed by Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Cyprus, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Finland, France, the German Democratic Republic, the Federal Republic of Germany, Greece, the Holy See, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United Kingdom, the United States of America and Yugoslavia in 1973): "The participating States will respect each other's sovereign equality and individuality as well as all the rights inherent in and encompassed by its sovereignty, including in particular the right of every State to juridical equality, to territorial integrity and to freedom and political independence." "The participating States regard as inviolable all one another's frontiers as well as the frontiers of all States in Europe and therefore they will refrain now and in the future from assault ing these frontiers. Accordingly, they will also refrain from any demand for, or act of, seizure and usurpation of part or all of the territory of any participating State." "The participating States will refrain from any intervention, direct or indirect, individual or collective, in the internal or external affairs falling within the domestic jurisdiction of another participating State, regardless of their mutual relations." https://www.csce.gov/international-impact/publications/helsinki-final-act Obviously you can point to "color revolutions" and the "Euromaidan" as probable de facto violations of sovereignty, but as we've discussed previously (regarding propaganda) the West at least has the decency of making it difficult to pin down their treachery, which stands in stark contrast to, you know, literally rolling in the tanks. All this is to say that being snarky is not the same thing as being right.

Elsie Hupp

DP—the only reason I've bothered to participate in this thread is that Patreon lacks most of the more toxic aspects of Facebook or Twitter.

Elsie Hupp

I'm not really sure how Liz could be "correct" (or, for that matter, "incorrect") in this episode considering she was mostly in a state of shock and ultimately said very little of substance either way.

Elsie Hupp

If anything this conflict goes to show how much of a disaster modern nation-states are at their very core. (I've given this some thought, and ultimately I think the concept of international borders serves exclusively to moralize certain violence as more justifiable than other violence, regardless of how many innocent civilians get killed.)

Juan Sacchi

These comments are fucking dumpster fire good god…

Elsie Hupp

Since nobody here bothers with primary sources, here's the full text of the Budapest Memorandum (1994). The PDF is available at https://undocs.org/CD/1285 — I had to run optical character recognition and manually tidy the transcription in order to copy it in full here. Please let me know if I missed any errors. The full text of the CSCE Final Act (1973) is available online, but it's substantially longer, so you'll just have to look at it yourself: https://www.csce.gov/international-impact/publications/helsinki-final-act ------ CONFERENCE ON DISARMAMENT CD/1285 21 December 1994 ENGLISH Original: ENGLISH and RUSSIAN LETTER DATED 19 DECEMBER 1994 FROM THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO THE CONFERENCE, THE PERMANENT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND NORTHERN IRELAND TO THE CONFERENCE, THE PERMANENT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION TO THE CONFERENCE AND THE PERMANENT REPRESENTATIVE OF UKRAINE ADDRESSED TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE CONFERENCE TRANSMITTING THE TEXT OF A JOINT DECLARATION OF THE LEADERS OF UKRAINE, RUSSIA, THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AS WELL AS A MEMORANDUM ON SECURITY ASSURANCES IN CONNECTION WITH UKRAINE’S ACCESSION TO THE NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY, SIGNED IN BUDAPEST ON 5 DECEMBER 1994 We have the honour to forward to you the text of a Joint Declaration of the Leaders of Ukraine, Russia, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America, as well as a Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, signed in Budapest on 5 December 1994. Could you please take the appropriate steps to register these documents as official documents of the Conference on Disarmament, and to have them distributed to all member delegations and non-member States participating in the work of the Conference. (Signed) Stephen J. Ledogar Ambassador United States Representative to the Conference on Disarmament (Signed) Sir Michael C.S. Weston Ambassador Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom to the Conference on Disarmament (Signed) Olexander Slipchenko Ambassador Permanent Representative of Ukraine Head of Delegation (Signed) Grigori V. Berdennikov Ambassador Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation to the Conference on Disarmament GE.94-65292 (E) CD/1285 page 2 JOINT DECLARATION OF THE LEADERS OF UKRAINE, RUSSIA, THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND, AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA The leaders of Ukraine, Russia, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America met during the summit meeting of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe. The leaders discussed the evolution of European security architecture. They underscored their determination to support the increasingly strong tendencies toward the formation of security based on political partnership, and to cooperate in the further development of a security system which embraces all the CSCE states. This will involve the evolution - given the new realities - of transatlantic and regional mechanisms of security in a manner that enhances the security and stability of all CSCE states. They are committed to continuing the process of building political, military, ana economic security in an undivided Europe, in which integration, openness for participation, and transparency are characteristic. The leaders confirmed that CSCE commitments in the area of human rights, economics, and security represent the cornerstone of the common European security space, and that they help ensure that countries and peoples in this space are not subjected further to the threat of military force or other undesirable consequences of aggressive nationalism and chauvinism. They noted that the historical changes in the world, including the end of the confrontation between blocs of the “cold war”, create favorable conditions for the further strengthening of security and stability on the European continent and for deep reductions in nuclear forces. In this regard, the leaders discussed the implementation of the Trilateral statement of January 14, 1994. They noted progress in the implementation of this Statement. The leaders also confirmed that an important contribution to the broader process of strengthening security and stability is also made by such agreements as the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe, the Open Skies Treaty, and confidence and security building measures. CD/1285 page 3 MEMORANDUM ON SECURITY ASSURANCES IN CONNECTION WITH UKRAINE'S ACCESSION TO THE NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of America, and Ukraine, Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon state, Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time, Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces, Confirm the following: 1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine. 2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northe Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. 3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind. 4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non- nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used. 5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack CD/1285 page 4 on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state. 6. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of America, and Ukraine will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments. This Memorandum shall enter into force on the date of its signing and shall be registered pusuant to article 102 of the Charter of the United Nations. Done at Budapest on 5 December 1994 in four copies. English, Russian and Ukrainian texts of this Memorandum are equally authentic. FOR THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION FOR UKRAINE FOR THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Elsie Hupp

For context, the above is a press release issued and almost immediately rescinded (but nonetheless archived) by RIA Novosti, a Russian state-owned domestic news agency. Presumably the reason that RIA Novosti rescinded the press release (after publishing it by accident) is that Russia has not, in fact, succeeded in annexing Ukraine. The press release is a useful perspective into how the Russian government intended to present the war domestically, namely as an irredentist annexation. Needless to say, this press release's framing narrative is quite different from the Russian government's Anglophone framing narrative, which has focused around nuclear disarmament. So, yeah, in their own words! I guess what's up next is looking up the full text of Putin's televised speech, so we can actually cite it rather than gesturing vaguely in its direction. *** Yes, you could argue that the Internet Archive is unreliable, but you'd be pulling that argument out of your ass unless you have some substantial (i.e. technically specific) allegations to the contrary.

Elsie Hupp

We've got to keep warm *somehow* what with the impending disruption of oil and natural gas supplies due to the war...

Soda enthusiast

Ukraine in the membrane, ukraine in the brain!

John S

Is there a spam setting which prevents commenters from posting copypasted 2000 word comments over and over again?

John McElroy

India sides with Russia and China (not even overtly) and look what happens on their border (massive bombing attack in Pakistan) - reminds me of the kind of work that was done recently in Kazakhstan by US intelligence https://apple.news/ACHmBl42lQmKszE-nBSy7cg

a clash of purple

There should be a spam setting that just prevents commenters...

Mike Penix

Brace sounds like a Jello 2004 voter

John McElroy

YouTube.com/watch?v=KICzOJmTWJM -Goswami saying what can’t be said on US media at present

twice

lmfao

Floyd Hill

LOL, Bellingcat's funding tells it all, I've known about it being a psyop since 2016.

John McElroy

YouTube has just deleted @TheOliverStone and @lopatonok's critically acclaimed documentary "Ukraine on Fire" on the US-engineered 2014 coup, and much more. Wonder why!

ClownBabee24

People revert to their initial programming in times of crisis, and in the US that is red scare russophobia

Mauve_Avenger

I may be an impotent loser, but I'm not a "write essays in the TrueAnon comment section" type of impotent loser, and for that I am thankful

Yup

Curious if anyone had any thoughts about this episode

Darbi Simmons

This comment section is a war Amirite?!?