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Episode 279: Welcome to the Machine (Taylor's Version) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-03-27 13:17:55
Edited:
2023-03-27 15:15:37
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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Content

We snap our 78s over our knees and examine some of the industry-shattering changes that music has undergone in the recent past: how we make it, listen to it, think about it, own it, and pay for it — and who gets the money.

Thanks to Sean Agnew from Union Transfer, Noah Kohll from Color Green, John Dwyer from Oh Sees, Geoff Rickley from Thursday, Jess Williamson, Timmy Hefner, and Zola Jesus.

(MOBY is not mentioned in this episode we just had to put a guy as the picture and he is funny looking)

Files

Comments

Jack

1

caseman

I worked in the music industry for five years. Very excited for this one, it's a shady place.

ZeeBee

Remember when FSU kicked the shit out of Moby on the street in Boston? That was cool in retrospect.

Jack Caldwell

i never wanted to like moby but heat (1995)? southland tales (2006)? would not have been the same without our bald vegan king

E M

SF Sorrow isn't a double LP :)

Buster Malino

Brace, what was the detailed book about recorded music you said you read

Francis Mahlie

I have an intellectual disability and have never tried David F Wallace. Shouldn't I even try?

NYCM&AHole

To quote Steel Panther: “I never did it for the money I  only did it to get laid But I can't buy shots for the ladies If there's no way to get paid Now I can't make money on my good looks Can't make it on applause So I sell nose beers to the kiddos And thumb my own nose at the laws”

NYCM&AHole

True geniuses “Couldn't make no money as a singer Didn't  seem to get too far So  I sell pot brownies and Vicodin From the back seat of my car Movin' back to Chicago Gonna  rest my achin' head Spotify  took my last 2 cents And the butter for my bread Gene  Simmons said it Rock and roll is dead”

owen

Did you rework the intro? Synths sound brighter

TrueAnonPod

Boston beat down nearly took my friends eye at Gilman

ZeeBee

The FBI raided a show I went to because they thought Social Circkle was an FSU band (lol)

NYCM&AHole

Oh man love the Metallica hate. Thanks :)

TrueAnonPod

Correct—my mind slots it as one cause my uncle gave me the SF Sorrow/Parachute value pack double LP from 75

Regina

i work in the industry (independently) and it is a hellscape so thank you for having this conversation <3

Tan Tan

Today’s ADHD ridden youth can only listen to grindcore. You go past 20 seconds per song and you have completely lost us.

Michael S. Judge

I've worked at least a little in the music business, books & publishing, and film/TV production, and I would unironically say that the best way to understand them is to consider them variously-scaled versions of the Pentagon, including all the civilian casualties

PrinceVocalFry

Damn, Brace knows Geoff from Thursday. That rocks. Speaking of analog music experiences, I saw them at warped tour around 2001 with a friend who was a huge Thursday fan. My friend ended up meeting and hanging out with Geoff for a bit. A couple weeks later, he got a package in the mail. It was a 12×10 signed photograph of them with a note. So cool. Also, Brace, how do you listen to punk your whole life and not prefer the live show? That's crazy

owen

I forgot I set the treble higher on my system…real geriatric hours

Mark Owen

albums are albums since 78s (multiple discs in a binder-style thing)

E M

wait also how tf do y'all not know who angel olsen is

Michael S. Judge

Didn't one of those guys have a signature guitar pedal called The Pussy Melter

NYCM&AHole

And the butthole burner!

Jaime Christley

Brace is always fronting that he doesn't know pop culture stuff. Lyin ass

CAMERON JAYMES

As someone who currently works in the music business… I’m very excited to see where this one goes….

carl

correction, Kill em All to And Justice...--all stellar. but they totally suck, yes. like the Simpsons, there's far more bad than good at this point.

demisays

liz see you in santa clara on july 29🫡

Lucy

Mann hive rise

Dan Z

Ty Brace for indirectly shouting out Shelter

carl

also, Union Transfer isn't indie, it'd owned by Bowery Presents or co-owned

Jaime Christley

Buddy I pictured you listening to this episode like a dog during 4th of July fireworks

Lucy

Also very interesting the micro trend of popular bands (as a tween I experienced this with one direction) releasing multiple versions of the same records with different singles sold at different retailers

Lucy

Forcing you to buy more than one CD even thought 99% of the songs were the same

Drew

THERES NO BANDS ANYMORE. BRING BACK BANDS!!!!!!!!!

Tan Tan

meghan trainor belongs in a work camp why do we keep letting her get away with writing these songs

NYCM&AHole

I still pay for albums, whether digital or otherwise. I refuse to go stream.

Drew

god this episode is my shit. this has been a trip to witness as a smaller artist over the last 15 years. many young artists now just make music in isolation and pray they make it onto an official spotify playlist. I got 700,000 plays on a song from the algorithm but not many of those listens became fans, they moved onto the next "vibe". It's ripping the community and heart from a living organism and just hoping the skeleton/nervous system can sustain itself.

Drew

let's all make songs that DONT have a hook or NEVER start as praxis

NYCM&AHole

Another steel panther lyric is applicable. There’s always a steel Panther lyric.

Jon Juan Travis Hallowell

My buddy in India told me that ISKoN specifically is a cult. When I told him that straightedge hardcore kids got into it in the 90s so you see hare krishna punks he thought it was the funniest thing.

Jaime Christley

much as I'm loathe to plug some shitass company, if you do stream music (pointing at myself) and you want to have the have the highest amount of $ per play go to the artist, get Tidal. before you say anything I know! I know! corny. but in the interest of harm reduction, short of systemic change, Tidal pays artists $0.013/stream. Apple music, right at $.01 per stream, and YouTube music just a hair less than that. The other services - Pandora, Spotify, etc, an oceanic dropoff. Also, Tidal offers tons of its library as lossless, or, if not lossless (they call it Master), significantly higher quality than Spotify. I believe Apple and Amazon also claim this, but I'm not 100% sure - just that Tidal isn't the only service claiming to actually give a shit about lossy v lossless, unlike you know who. Oh and Tidal pays out $1.50 to whichever artist you listened to the most during a calendar month. (Before you big ear brains start gunning for me, let me let myself off the hook by saying (a) I am just some dumb shitheel living in a cheap house looking at a maple tree and smiling at my dog and (b) I've got tinnitus that exempts me from being any kind of audio purist. Ok world peace go easy with yourself bye)

Oliver Crane

Thank you I was about to do some deboonking. I checked out their album from like 2015, sounded alright!

Oliver Crane

Oh damn Brainbombs are on tour? I can’t wait to tell them how much their lyrics have guided my life.

Yup

Angel Olsen is the fourth Olsen twin. Don't erase Elizabeth, dammit

Ryan Fox

Trueanon Speak Now( Taylors version) listening party??

Javier

Going to Tower and putting on the headphones, SF '01, love yall

Char Kelly

Purchasing concert tickets via ActBlue…what a concept

slacc_attacc

When Liz said that predictive algorithms "present you with a version of yourself to consume" I thought that was really interesting. Does anyone have recommendations for books or essays on that topic?

Jaime Christley

I'm not sure but after listening to this episode, my Amazon home page and my Gmail promotions tab will probably be where I look for recommendations.

Adam DeBoer

The 2 genres now are country and not country

justdave

Hahahahahhuhuh!

Alaina Nuvola

The internet ruined thrifting too.

Oliver Crane

I’ve been listening to Andrew Hickey’s history of rock music and it’s interesting to hear parallels with the modes of production in the late 50s/early 60s, where everyone would race to cash in on the latest trend and suck every bit of juice out of the Twist or “work with me Annie” or whatever, and groups like The Beach Boys had to produce endless content (something like 11 albums in 3 years)

Oliver Crane

Related - Chubby Checker’s psych-rock album? Still not streaming! The people need to hear “Stoned in the Bathroom”!

Kamran Husain

lol i had a gbv pandora playlist on at work this year and i had to sprint over when “tractor rape train” started

Amanda

Had to look up Cuban cows

will michel

as a musician: “oh well, guess i’ll just kill myself”

Caleb Beck

get Mike IX Williams to guest on Trueanon challenge. Eyehategod rules

Swamp Kingdom

My interest in Brace as a man spiked in the early minutes of this episode when he revealed himself as an EYEHATEGOD Guy, only to return to normal when he disclosed that he is also one of the dreaded Record Guys

jsobrie

Counterpoint sometimes you are depressed and want to listen to a bunch of sad songs in a row but that’s what Jason Molina is for

E M

also you can merge it with a plex server which has fuckin changed my life becuase contrary to what Liz claimed, a whole lot of music is *not* available on streaming platforms

Eon Gattignolo

my kid works on playlists the way we used to work on mix tapes. I do miss live shows and think as a way to feel yourself as part of a group, they are threatening to the ongoing project to make us all more isolated and self centered.

Mickey Soltys

No Diddley kicks ass. Check out Johnny Guitar Watson if you haven’t.

NYCM&AHole

I wonder how they’d take to cannibal corpse or cattle mutilation

Eric Anderson

As a skate video/THPS guy, I just wanna say thank you.

Jason Weiser

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Natalie

as someone who spent an embarrassing amount of money on taylor swift tickets for my sister i'm excited to hear this one....and Fab Socialism on youtube has a video i really enjoyed on this topic called "Decommodify Music...The Conclusion No One Wants To Come To"

The Dee's Knees

The classical music part was interesting, I started listening to it bc Spotify made it like accessible and overview-able for the first time, maybe that's not just me. Also Spotify is not that many blocks from my uni, there's so many people who don't finish their comp sci degrees bc they get a well-paid start-up culture job there along the way. Probably a sign of the 0% interest times, I wonder what's gonna happen to them now :(

The Dee's Knees

(also the founder went to same uni and they try to ~claim~ him by giving him an innovator award but he left after two months 🙄)

C

bosstones rule

TrueAnonPod

Well she probably doesn’t know who we are so we’re even

TrueAnonPod

Someone told me a guy from shelter likes the show

Jake

You guys should talk to Bob Lefsetz in a followup to this one. He has some interesting takes on the state of the industry

Dan Z

Shelter invented rap rock

E M

a friend tour manages for her, let me see if I can get a response

Oliver Crane

“Die You Fuck” - we’ve all been there I think

Alek

Brace I am deeply offended at the LuLu slander

Mitch

Brace better been talkin shkreli with Geoff Rickley.

Krista Sion

I used to be kind of jealous of people I know who had “made it” (or some approximation of that) in my scene but knowing all this and especially everything that has happened in the past few years concerning live music I think I’m just content to put out music with my friends that a couple hundred nerds like. Also that part with Brace like, huffing to imitate a druid ritual freaked out my dog quite a bit.

ch

I work for a major label and it's insane how much of the industry is centered around reissues and legacy labels to get merch/ streaming money from artists of the past and rewriting their histories.

punkademic

Liz Pelly would’ve been a great guest on this episode. She’s written the smartest stuff I’ve read about Spotify and the issues raised here.

Evan Scott

For some reason it was funny to me that you guys knew phoebe Bridgers but not angel olsen

Be Boop

Was recently listening to This Machine Kills, like the good Luddite I am, and they were talking about music recommendations. Good listen and led me to buy a book by guest Nick Seaver called “Computing Taste”. Is it related? I’m not sure.

John

no you aren't

sarah

sometimes I’m like “oh great punk rocker brace belden would never love me im a taylor swift listener…” but today i learned NOT TRUE. even gals like me have a shot. hear that ladies??? we don’t need a pixies tattoo to get with our dream music man.

Toddy Todd

Damn y’all talked to John Dwyer I’m jealous

Brian Rad

Swifty Gumshoes rise up!

boop

how does brace know that grindr ~doesn't~ have a search bar 🤔

Be Boop

There is an academic type book called “Computing Taste: Algorithms and the Makers of Music Recommendation” by Nick Seavers. Still to read it but the author was on the podcast This Machine Kills.

Thomas Meade

Considering Brace went on the podcast “Turned Out A Punk” hosted by the singer of the HC punk band Fucked Up, I’m surprised Brace didn’t talk about how fucked up had their album streamed on Spotify by cutting up songs in ~30 second bits to take advantage of the algorithm and pay structure.

Julian Drummond

For any classical music heads I highly recommend “Composing Capital” by Marianna Ritchey

Sneakaboard

Looooong shot BUT does anyone remember what recent episode Brace talked about the bar/laundromat in San Francisco called Brainwash? He mentioned my buddy Tom and I want to show Tom.

Major bit me

People now act very abashed or embarrassed when you ask them what kind of music they listen to, who they listen to, I’ve noticed this and I do it to. Pretty sure it wasn’t always like that but idk

Peter Reale

look, I love the pod but... you played Thalia Hall in Chicago a Ticketmaster venue. There is a super insidious thing going on right now with "independent" venues signing ticketmaster deals and using one of ticketmaster's subsidiaries such as Ticketweb to seem less shitty. I could go on about the crimes of the owner of Thalia (once tried to force his bartenders to remove asbestos for minimum wage without telling them it was asbestos to save what turned out to be $600) but the main one is this. 16 on Center (parent of company of Thalia) is part of an organization called CIVL (Chicago Independent Venue League) that was founded to combat the construction of a Live Nation venue in Chicago as part of the "Lincoln Yards" development. This organization was successful and had the city of chicago block the building of a venue as part of the project. 16 On Center then went on to build a 3000 capacity music complex immediately next door to the Lincoln Yards development, then sign a Ticketmaster deal which is estimated to be 7 figures. People in chicago are reluctant to criticize them because their other properties such as The Empty Bottle are the "cool" venues in town, and people ignore the fact that they are Ticketmaster because they sell tickets as "Ticketweb."

Peter Reale

there is a Shellac song called "Boycott" about the owner of 16 on Center if you are interested

Ben Calegari

gotta shout out my new union local comrades at Bandcamp (the only good online music service)

Brian Rad

Haven't lived in Chicago, but why would the group that owns Thalia use ticketmaster if they oppose the livenation venue, they are the same company. I believe what you're saying, but there has to be a reason they use them instead of axs. I went through the seven hour nightmare of getting Taylor Swift tickets and afterword did some research on why she didn't just start her own ticket vendor and it turns out, because of some obscure antitrust law Reagan overturned, live nation and ticketmaster were allowed to merge and now they own the whole stack, so they own the venue, therefore if you want to play a venue they own, you have to sell through them. But they don't own Thalia, so idk why they'd choose them as a vendor. In addition to this, they have exclusivity deals with basically every Arena in the US, so when an artist as big as Swift wants to play in those arenas, they have no choice but to use TM as their vendor. They could do a whole episode on that alone.

Alex

Todd Rundgren was ultimately right. In the 90s he thought the mood of music was the way to go before streaming. Theres a YouTube video of him doing promo for his mood based music. he wanted all artist to create music like this

Mauve_Avenger

Idk there are obviously some real things going on re: the new dynamics of big streaming platform playlists / songwriting for Tik Tok, etc but I think this narrative is confusing a disgust with new digital music industry exploitation (on top of labels) and unsustainable techie bullshit generally with ultimately normal / benign music consumption habits. People have been curating playlists ever since they were able, and humans have always tried to sync music to their mood / used it to inspire a new feeling. Sure, people can rent a personality from a predictive algorithm, but is that so different from the market-driven Top 40 etc? There's plenty to be interested in and concerned about here, but imo not with these sorts of listening habits

Buried Ledes

Another fucked part of Spotify and other streaming services’ algorithmically-generated content and playlists is that labels and PR firms can pay third parties or these streaming companies themselves for favorable playlist placement. This results in artists on smaller, independent labels or without PR agents going to bat for them getting largely ignored by these algorithms.

K H

I'm sick of the flippin Flippening. It's TRUE! All the shit is fake now. 90% of my effort when buying anything including basic services goes into not getting scammed. Also 25% margin, pretty good. Many large scale businesses have single digit margins. Maybe this is how Declining rate of profits look like. A flippening.

Alek

👹

Michael Ouderkirk

I really can't believe they're using Webcrawler for the backend of these algorithms. Google search really is useless these days, huh?

low_art

You don't have to use any streaming services. I don't. Just don't use them. Is your life much improved by being subjected to a bunch of algorithmically created playlists? I doubt it. A good alternative (not available to everyone everywhere, maybe not particularly "convenient" but certainly more involving and more enjoyable, at least for me) is to listen to good freeform college radio. You'll hear plenty of new music and old, hear things that you'd never find on your own, and at some stations it's very easy to talk with the djs (via text or over the phone) about what they're playing. You get to hear selections that have been made by real people who have done it out of a love of music and a need to share it with other people. Then go to your local library, a record store, or to Bandcamp and buy an actual recording that you will own and can enjoy on your own terms. Looking at my music collection I've probably bought a dozen albums so far this year, all discovered via radio.

Jeremy hatrington

For somebody who claims to have never seen any movies Brace sure drops a lot of obscure movie references…

Michael Ouderkirk

Calling bullshit on Unknown Pleasures being Liz's first CD. C'mon, we all know it was All-4-One or Blessid Union of Souls or Sugar Ray.

Broadway Joe

I like classical music. If I’m reading or writing sometimes I like to have music on, but anything with lyrics is too distracting. I’m a stay at home dad and my daughter loves music. It’s easier to talk to her if I’m playing something that’s a little chill and has no words. Also, I do listen to the podcast with her and she loves the theme song. She stops what she’s doing and starts dancing every time.

J.L. Vaughn

y'all have seriously and grossly mutilated the history of recorded sound. yours truly, an aggrieved audiovisual archivist

Pantry Raiderz

I love live music, I think it's decreasing in popularity bc it's too expensive bc of resales,, even for smaller acts

babo

DEEZER LMAO

Connor Dickinson

Need more pretentious and contrarian music opinions in me life

Natalie

and spotify tries to say they have no Ads with premium

Colin S

Did YC speed up voices to make the full track closer to 1:30? Fast banter over here

j

hey true anon do you want to come over later and listen to my double LPs? i’ve got some good ones

kiki

a version of ourselves that we can consume woah liz is a genius

Colin Andrews

Even country as a genre can be divided into country and not country.

Sean

it’s not any better in the indie world. Seattle’s entire cultural industry is still stuck in 1991 because the only way to keep the lights on is to reissue grunge records and sell shit to gen Xers instead of promoting new music.

CJ

Such a bummer how good that song is

Jesse

Shoutout Surf Curse

porridgeluvr69

liz, angel olsen’s good, i recommend

lolwuthappend

I call 🧢 that Liz has never heard of Angel Olsen

Cam Smith

As a person who works in the touring industry with rock bands, this episode was great to listen to. The margins are always slimming, and everything to sustain touring is getting more expensive. Fuck the algorithm. Make art for yourself. Go to a show and buy a shirt if u wanna help an artist you like

Cam Smith

Would also love a part 2 !

Peter Reale

They were more concerned with the competition than with the ethics of the thing. They blocked live nation building a 3000 cap space so they could build their own. Also how ticketing deals work is that the venues get huge signing bonuses based on the estimated amount of fees ticketmaster can make off of the property for the term of the contract, not many ticketing companies (especially post covid) can afford to pay the level of bonuses Ticketmaster will pay. Another thing missed in this episode is that Spotify is currently trying to break into the ticketing industry by offering presale tickets directly through their platform, which is extremely distopic.

owen

Visit everynoise (at once) if the Spotify alg keeps giving you the same shit over and over again. It’s a link cloud of all 6,000 or whatever subgenres on the service. It’s pretty insane

K H

I'm anti vibe and anti music. For once I'm not part of the problem. Also, Pornhub: BEAST MODE

Oliver Crane

I think there are also cases of Spotify generating its own music to put on these focus/ambient playlists

Arid

Honestly I still find music from like Bandcamp and who bands themselves talk about on Twitter. I feel like my music discovery is just the 20 bands in Minneapolis with the same drummer. I don't have spotify and buy albums via bandcamp for people I've seen play in basements

Madison Perry

The stuff Liz says around the 1hr 7min mark makes me feel really sad. I don’t want to just use music as a constant background or in this functionalist way, but like, I work alone and it’s lonely in silence.

Madison Perry

I hate being the ideal user for streaming

Treppy

get yung chomsky a mic you dorks

Isaac

Rentiers have taken control of the point of production, if you will…

Isaac

This episode made me think about my first-ever music download, a WAV file of Danzig’s ‘Mother’ that took 14 hours to download from a local BBS in 1992.

Timothy

Thought y’all should know that Hozier is currently on both “wanderlust” and “Beast Mode.” A man for all vibes.

Dean Watson

Ok like what’s for dinner came out so long ago I can’t even date the Motherfucker; king khan is not a ticktok band that’s ridiculous brace

Dean Watson

Good episode otherwise but do your homework if you coming at those fools

Jessica S

Hands down one of the best episodes you guys have done.

Zach

bot buy-up / scalp machine thing happened recent when Unwound played the Regency. They ended up canceling their third SF date. too many ghost seats. the network for live music needs to be rebuilt bottom up IMO

Sacha Jane Bruyn

fyi they do expect painters to put out paintings every month lol

jacob

yuhhhh eyehategod

Doc Adna

this is cool

Doc Adna

radio.garden is an interesting one as well, has radio stations from all around the world. have discovered many interesting things on there.

TrueAnonPod

I’m not comin at those guys, it’s just really funny that KK&BBQ got a second wind via tiktok

low_art

Sounds cool, I always listen to the local to me stations here in Boston MA, 88.1 WMBR which is the the MIT station, and to a lesser extent 90.3 WZBC, which is (I believe) the Boston College station. I'm sure there are a lot of great stations out there (WTJU out of Charlottesville VA is another) but those two stations alone provide me with a lot to seek out later, really more than I can keep up with.

AK

UT ❤️❤️

Nat Dolitsky

Took solace in this episode as an Aspiring Young Musician. Great work as always 🫶

Colin S

My dumbass clicked the playback speed up to 1.25x. Excellent episode to listen thinking assuming it was a bit

Hannah Walczak

John Dwyer knows the algorithm is evil

Zack Voase

I like this episode but what about the radio? I feel like you didn’t talk much about the massive force that radio play is/was on the industry. It’s song-based (not whole albums), it’s more ‘forced’ on you than the Spotify algorithm due to the monopoly of the airwaves, and musicians have literally, for decades, been making ‘radio edits’ of their songs.

Zack Voase

There’s interesting things about the radio broadcast format too, like the fact that you and everyone tuned in are listening to the same thing at the same time. And that synchronicity, immediacy, broadcast yet niche-ness is also something that’s present in live-streamed DJ sets now (which are somewhat more popular in dance music but still exist for other genres). The way we decorate our lives with music is so varied and interesting, and the algorithm is but a thread in the tapestry.

Sean Kirkpatrick

This was a really interesting episode. I haven't thought before about how streaming is serving you moods rather than musical artists, nor did I know about the 42 analytical algorithms. Crazy. I have a feeling that human futures trading is the ultimate outcome of mood prediction. This episode could easily be expanded into a series. This article about the Hipgnosis Song Management Fund gets in the detail of where capital investment is going and where it is expected to be returned (consolidation of the 3 majors and Spotify/ eliminating the risk of investing in new artists). Highly recommended: https://thebaffler.com/outbursts/the-masters-own-you-woodall Also, (I know...no ethical consumption) but you don't have to use Spotify if you don't want to consume music in this manner. Support artists and labels directly on Bandcamp (Support the Bandcamp Union!). Buy physical media if you dig that kind of thing.

Mugiwara

I think they just did away with the "most listened artist this month extra payout" thing this month, no? Nominally because it kept too much money out of smaller artists hands i think, idk

Angel

yup

Colin Andrews

Just wanted to say that Baerd who just got put up on a bunch of Spotify playlists is a friend of mine from Berklee and it was pretty surreal to hear you guys read off his name. He makes great music! You should give him a try!

surrander 2000

Writing this on 1st listen @ ~1:20:__ . Wondering if we are going to hear about v i n y l , & how that sorts out...... aw

surrander 2000

......you guys really, r e a l l y , R E A L L Y need to interview Prof. Zuboff

Jaron Lenz

The Ruby Yacht welcomes all weary travelers, come my friends, lay your troubles at the door and let the musical stylings of R.A.P. Ferreira and the Ruby Yacht set you free!

Malin Kulseth

Hello. Former spotify playlist editor here. The goal of the mood playlists is to keep users on the platform for as long as possible. You should look into their “shift to audio” too, presented as “supporting all creators”, when it’s really about keeping users on the platform longer while also not having to pay royalties for the content.

Michael S. Judge

Mine was ELECTRIC LADYLAND but the second was a compilation of songs I heard during professional wrestling

Carleen Michele

Related to the art changing based on the form: maybe anecdotal, but I feel like a lot of new albums have 1-2min “intro tracks” that are basically just filler. I wonder if that’s in any way driven by the 30 seconds of listening is worth one listen thing.

Lars

Such a good ep

H

Was there a follow up episode to this?

Katherine Crone

Taylor’s birthday is dec 13, not oct 13