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16. The Fall of the Goth Empire (Patreon)

Published:
2024-01-23 16:04:27
Imported:
2026-06
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Downloads

  • Episode 16.mp3

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Content

0:00 Either-or game (Tarkovsky, Alien, Persona...)
14:55 A discussion on religion
46:10 The new alternative scene/the costumes of goth/how hip-hop has changed over the years
1:11:55 The need for vulgarity in art, the damage when it is empty/Peter Sotos
1:26:32 SHOUT OUT/Showing our appreciation for all of you/The kinship we share with our viewers that helps us grow
1:38:33 A quick conversation on Hitler and the understanding of evil

Note from Luiza: Pardon me for completely butchering Käthe Kollwitz's name pronunciation and origin. -_-" She is German, not Polish. Here are some of her amazing work. She works in charcoal, printmaking, graphite, painting, and sculpture and deals with longing, war, and motherhood themes. She is currently an obsession of mine. I hope you enjoy :) 


Files

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Comments

Rebecca Orton

I also love love love nymphomaniac. So nice to hear two people that rate it so, because I haven’t encountered many people who do. It was actually your video ‘Lars von trier - deconstructing cinema’ that first brought my attention to you guys in 2018. After watching that video I didn’t (and still haven’t) watch another video essay about film on any other channel. I hadn’t gotten into video essays much anyway and when I saw your video I realised that was because nobody else had a SINGLE CLUE what they were talking about. But with you guys I’ve always learnt so much and been able to engage critically with what you put out there. I also have fond memories of binging all your Patreoncasts and Deep Dives during the 2020-2021 winter while keeping warm in my car on my lunch break from the Covid-19 testing site by the Bristol Airport runway. Reclined in the passenger seat with my egg mayo sandwich rations provided by Deloitte, engine on, heater blasting, watching through the fogged windscreen at the odd plane taking off to a destination probably far lovelier than Bristol, and listening to you guys discuss the dream sequence in Stalker or the psychological fragmentation in Perfect Blue. The highlight of my day, truly! Well… you guys and David Lynch’s weather report….. 🌚 My life has changed a lot since then though - thank god - but you guys remain a fruitful and educational break from the day to day. Cheers for being you, you lovely weirdos x

Esteban Rodriguez

For me, an artist that I cannot stand because of how his films feel like it's trying to be provocative with no deeper conversation is Matthew Barney. The Cremaster Cycle definitely has that vulgarity in the subject matter. But to me, it is such an empty series that has little to say due to how it spends more time showing off with its visuals and grotesque imagery than thinking of any point to say with its aesthetics other than the basic shouting of "genitals!" and the mutilation of the body. Let alone the fact that any message has already been a little diluted once it becomes clear that your films are only going to be shown at these expensive museums and copies that are hundreds of thousands of dollars and then the only way to watch is through pirating. His whole career just feels so incredibly insincere. These works irk me because I think I always strive to be more mature the more I make art and these come off as completely immature and show little growth. Also thanks for the shout out!

Esteban Rodriguez
>>127756534

I am also such a massive von Trier fan to this day (My personal favorite from him is still 'Antichrist'.) but for some reason, Nymphomaniac never really clicked for me. I think that was because I thought, especially compared with his other films, it felt more juvenile in its execution with its themes coupled with its radical filmmaking style that felt more flash than substance. However, these are thoughts from years ago and I am more than willing to rewatch it. Part 1 even when I first watched had a lot that I did genuinely like. Interesting first video to watch from them. For me, it was when I was very into Kubrick and found their "Cinematic Experience" video in 2018 that made me a fan. Ah the good old Criswell days.

Sophia Lambton

It took you long enough to come out as ailurophiles! Will we ever get to see your felines? I had absolutely no idea some of the world's inimitable masterpieces had been classed as "Slow Cinema". Oh, wow. Isn't that just film critics' excuse for being lazy-minded? I so agree that alt culture has been subverted by mall culture. I have never been into metal, goth or hip-hop culture but my feeling is most of these artists have sold out to the mainstream. It was very interesting for me to hear of "bling" hip-hop, not knowing anything about the genre whatsoever. I feel like most indie films and music still embrace vulgarity and the "taboo" (in air quotes) to seem cool, which is hilarious because it's very 90s.

Sophia Lambton

P.S. I accidentally pressed Enter too soon. I was going to say that Lewis has my empathy for "Lewis Bond does taxes on his own" week. I tried but failed to watch "Kids", and I had no idea it featured in "The Cinema of Transgression". I find this amusing. As film students, have you ever come across an institution or a publication (academic or otherwise) that analyses cinema aesthetically and intellectually as opposed to by contemporary trends? I hear incessantly of alternative news sources, alternative media (like YouTube or Twitch), but I've yet to come across alternative academia or criticism free of ideological criteria (for any ideology). As a (half-)native Russian speaker I was unable to read Dostoyevsky or Tolstoy in Russian (only Chekhov), but I will happily help Luiza practise! :) Meanwhile I need to learn German and have tried before but haven't managed. And I demand more Q&As. :)

Jason

Nick cave has been instrumental in helping me discover who I am as an artist. He helped me simply acknowledge and accept that which speaks to me otherwise I will shoehorn symbols or meanings I feel nothing for, or hate, for poor reasons . My 8 year old daughter has been a Nick Cave fan since she was 4 btw. Keeping it in the family

Esteban Rodriguez

So I just listened back to that discussion on religion segment again while I was listening to Shen Khar Venakhi. It made me really think about all the art that has that divine essence because it really does move me emotionally. Here’s a few that do that for me: - The Gregorian chant, Shen Khar Venakhi - Tarkovsky’s 'Mirror' - Parajanov’s 'Color of Pomegranates' - Malick’s 'Tree of Life' - Da Vinci’s The Last Supper - Wyeth’s 'Passing of Robin Hood' - Bach’s Air on the G String - Very much most of what the choir VOCES8 performs. Their voices to me are the most transcendental I’ve ever heard.

cinemacartography
>>127757481

I have felt the same about Barney for a number of years now. The moment I saw Cremaster 3 (the first work of his I encountered), I knew exactly what it was; an artist trying desperately hard to be an icon of the contemporary art scene. He creates work so insular to the community he tries so hard to provoke, yet is so out of touch he cannot glimpse at the fact that his work is in an echo chamber. Ever since then I've encountered work of his and without even knowing he was behind it felt the same thing. - Lewis

cinemacartography
>>127773638

Part of me wants to make the cats the face of everything we do, I'll be sure to post more of them here. (One is uncomfortably sprawled across me hands as I type this, the other is staring at me from across the room, eyes filled with envy). In regards to reliable publications, Sight and Sound was reliable until unfortunately, their newest poll revealed that they had been swallowed by modern re-evaluations and a 'more inclusive' space for art. Suggesting that of all films to represent cinema, it should be Jeanne Dielman. This is just going to make people more distant from the art of cinema and care less about it when they see how anti-film the purveyors of the art form are. Luiza recently discovered a place called 'Image' who also have their top 100 films. It may be worth a look throughout their site also. https://imagejournal.org/top-100-films/ But beyond that, I think we are pretty good. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Q&As will be coming soon. - Lewis

hyperballadbrad

Wow , you really think humans can only be more moral on the condition of the possibility of a god's existence? Maybe I heard you wrong, or it was a casual comment..... BUT... Interesting... I advocate humanism. Goodness, kindness, understanding, enquiry, education and care can come from within, but only if we can champion it and share it. I don't believe in anything supernatural.... a god, the soul., an afterlife, fairies, father Christmas.... but I do love the idea of magic - that strange, inexplicable, fuzzy feeling in my tummy. Magic in nature, in joy, in love, in kindness, in the wonder of the universe, in hope that springs despite all odds.... and, of course, through art. Is that a version of faith I have, and what you refer to? I think it might be. Even if I can rationalise my own ideas that I do not believe in anything supernatural, I do have a connection to things that I am tackily coining 'magic'? (trying by best not to add assumption to or project what I think you believe or are saying here) I wonder if people who believe that humans are less moral without a god are concerned less about individuals and their actions (or what they are possible of, good or bad) bur rather something societal, something larger, and out of our control (seemingly).....conditions we might feel trapped by and influence our purpose and existence.... norms, values., our governments, our religious leaders and institutions, consumerism, social media, fear, prejudices, hate. Forms of social control and conformity maybe. I truly believe if we advocate humans to be the authors of their lives with roots in reason, education, understanding and care, (all of which can exist imo without a supernatural being) that the world could be a better place. Many people are so removed from any sense of purpose or autonomy, they don't think this is possible or even desirable..... the UK and US, ever increasingly, are consumed by consumerism, greed and fear. No amount of kindness and understanding can tackle that surely? And where is a god to people who don't believe in anything at all - starting with themselves - and what use can it be? It surely can only start with an action - someone stopping still, thinking differently, tackling fear, challenging hate...... human life is about action, exploration and hope and, for me, that is rooted in the natural. It's where I place my values, anyway, ever since I was a child, but I am finally being able to be proud of that and channel them o action..... and I do my best to champion and encourage them in others, especially in the last 8 or 9 months, where I have overcome my own abject despair and disconnection...... I have now found rich, warm, loving connection, and that is rooted in the natural. And it's beautiful. EDIT: By pure chance (or design? lol) I watched The Enigma of Kasper Hauser for the very first time at the Home cinema in Manchester. It curiously fits in really well with the above - it really affected me quite deeply, stirring a lot of questions and feelings that mean a lot to me. The images are near burned into my memory. (really had it to bring this diatribe back to the art) Ha! Thanks, as always, for getting the creative juices flowing :-) and thank you for helping me find a language.... the desire for the transcendental..... and what I look for/aspire to in art. Something I have never been able to articulate or understand until recently, but has always existed. ------------------------------------------------ GOTH - remember when the townies used to shout 'GOFF' at anyone that wasn't wearing a tracksuit with rockport boots or was vaguely alternative looking? lol.... I find it hard to discuss any kind of artist that creates a song that is 1min long... ie tiktok curated media. Like Lewis said - I would probably feel like I would end up killing myself/others if I was a kid now having to navigate Tiktok or Tiktok style youth culture offerings. It's my opinion, I guess, that there is no value that platform or form of media that I see or care to explore. Anyway, let's take a moment to remember Sophie Lancaster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster ------------------------------------------------ Please ban me for how obnoxiously long this comment is >_>

GR

Hot take: psychopaths are the true honest atheists i.e. without a metaphysical hierarchy of values what remain are pleasure, pain and power. Jonathan Pageau and Alex O'Connor had a good discussion recently on art and the transcendental

James Herbert

Listening to you guys briefly talk about Andre Bazin and remembering a comment Lewis made a while back about only asking for film books one Christmas, I wondered if maybe you two both have, or could come up with, a list of 10 or more books each, which you feel would greatly benefit someone wanting to learn more about cinema and filmmaking? Also, perhaps this could be a recurring thing every now and then, and you could also do a list of novels and lists of other non fiction books on different topics? Or perhaps it could just be one book you recommend every week? Something along these lines would be hugely appreciated, as I am really trying to develop my knowledge of cinema at the moment but also don't want to limit myself to only one thing, and feel that you both surely have a wealth of guidance that could be given in this matter that is far better than the majority of sources out there. Many thanks for putting a smile on my face each and every week - James Herbert.

Sophia Lambton
>>127804715

Hey Brad, I relate to what you say about belief. I am a fatalist myself, and I think all artists and art-loving creatures must believe in some higher power, even if they don't think it benign. Maybe that's the only way we can continue to believe great art will be created. Take care, Sophia

Tyler Craig

The Tarkovsky quote of “Art as a prayer” hit me like a ton of bricks. One of the most profound statements I’ve heard in a long time. As I think about that statement, the more true it becomes. Art as a reverential act of worship towards a transcendent divine being that imbued us with the innate desire and ability to create truly is a beautiful reality. The Christian idea of Imago Dei (being made in the image of God) perfectly captures this in a way that not only gives us purpose and meaning in our existence but provides us with the joy and satisfaction as we labor and produce things that transcend our present reality to the heavens.