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This is the Worst D&D Youtube Scandal--or is it? (Extended) (Patreon)

Published:
2024-07-24 19:02:53
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

I react to Dungeon & Discourse's latest video and give my manifesto on paid reviews, advertisements, and ethics. Airs Friday on YT.

Files

Previews only

Youtube

Comments

Jim Havoc

Am I really the first!? Keep up the great work!

Jay
>>144555812

Just beat me to it. Nice job! Think this has become a game on here. :)

Frederic Schmitt

Looking forward to watch this video later. Although I don’t like D&Discourse tbh 😅

Scott

So the takeaway here is we need a new kickstarter? $500k and we get a video of the Professor and Seth wrestling in spaghetti sauce?

Steven Sweet

I've never seriously wished I was going to GenCon until I saw that "Hack" lineup of guests. Man, I wish I could be there for that!

Justin Watson

Whoever you are, your electronic device almost certainly has components that were sourced out of communist China where a human rights violation is like hello. Globalism has many pitfalls.

Jay

PDM, videos such as this are what reinforce my support for your channel. You provide a good sound reminder or gut check to many, including myself, as to why one should not be so quick to provide harsh criticism on what may seemingly be immoral business practices or personal criticism of others. It’s been a while, yet I was taught a long time ago in the Armed Forces to praise in public and chastise in private. That goes for what might be considered harsh yet constructive criticism as well. It’s important for us to remember we are not without flaws and most of us have had to compromise from time to time on matters we did not agree with. Never-the-less, I try to keep my criticisms of such things as game advice or mechanics as positive or constructive as possible all while offering suggestions and ideas to correct what may not be desired. Another common military trait is to not bitch about an issue if you’re not at least going to suggest a reasonable solution or step up to offer help in resolving the matter. Positive attitudes such as the one you present in this video can become infectious and drive home a more positive form of discourse and I hope it does. Yes, I do agree it is imperative that we have some Dungeon Tubers who provide news regarding scandals and questionable business practices. An informed public can make better educated decisions in the products and services they choose to use. I also agree there should be full disclosure for YouTubers to reveal if they are paid or sponsoring those businesses. Dungeons and Discourse is a good channel and I enjoy listening from time to time. As a personal choice, I do my best to avoid spending money on companies that hate the likes of me or those like me. That being stated, most of the news there doesn’t really affect me as a consumer and don’t see a need to support boycotts. Yet, I do think Dungeons and Discourse as well as other channels do a good job of opening a few eyes as to what is happening behind the scenes. As for the Dungeon Tubers who cover D&D2024, someone will definitely cover it and get paid. Might as well do just that if you enjoy most of what that game has to offer. The viewers will make purchasing decisions based on the merits of that Tubers presentation coupled with the criticisms of other channels or at least I hope they get their information from more than one source. After all, not everyone out there is completely ignorant, and I trust many people will choose to make informed decisions. The uniformed will learn from what they perceive as mistakes. So, if those in the comments section who only offer hate filled or abusive comments rather than useful information or constructive criticism may wish to ask themselves exactly what they are hoping to achieve. I realize I need to keep myself in check on this and I’m certain others will as well. I am only human. Admittedly, I have been listening to some of the Dungeon Tubers covering the D&D 2024 material for the simple reason that there may be some good ideas or mechanics somewhere in there worth borrowing even though it is unlikely that I will be buying WoTC products. Remember, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Perhaps there will be some feats or skills not covered by the other games I play which might be easily adapted. Anyway, hope you’re taking good care of yourself out there while away. There are some of us on here who will likely still be watching your channel for several more years to come and we need a return on our investment. Looking forward to the next live stream with Tom. I have so many ideas and questions buzzing around in my head. Godspeed and safe travels to you and yours.

MrGunn

Dear Profressor: I hope you are well. You have opened up a can of worms which I am now going to eat. Yes, I have a serious beef with YouTuberatti behavior in general, no matter how hard one tries, one cannot be unbiased when receiving free stuff or payment to do a product preview, review, promotion, or take advertising monies. It is simple ethics, impropriety or the appearance of impropriety is the issue here. YouTube was originally about providing folks with a platform to share themselves and their hobbies. Since it was acquired by Google, YouTube has become mainly an advertising platform, and many creators have become extensions of the marketing departments for the brands they are promoting. Regardless of motives or whether they stated they are getting paid or not, the following folks are are now shills for WotC: Dungeon Dudes d4 D&D Deep Dive Pixel Circus Pointy Hat Monarch Factory Dungeon Dad Ginny Di Jonathan Perez Galvan Pack Tactics Good Time Society We already know folks like Ginny Di and other Youtuberatti have been on the take for a long time. It has been suggested that YouTubers close to you Professor are suspect, Seth Skorkowski and Ben Milton have both been accused for selling reviews. Even you professor moved from a non-monetized YouTube channel to one of paid advertising. I told you then, I did not agree with you but I respected that you were very up front about it. If folks want to adhere to full ethical and moral standards and be taken seriously, those persons and organizations need to have a written code of conduct, be fully transparent about how much money they make from YouTube and other sources and who they receiving the money from. If you review something, then you have to pay for it yourself, no more freebies, you cannot take advertising money from an entity then review their product and you cannot have a personal affiliation. Further, while you may say nothing bad about a fellow creative, there is no reason to embrace them either, no more reviews for Ben Milton's Knave or the Merry Mushmen's free products and no promotions for folks who do not have clearly defined ethical standards. Lastly, all deviations from the standard need to be clearly called out. About now some folks are saying to themselves; "MrGunn is an idiot, what does he know! These YouTubers are just trying to make an honest buck." However, that is the issue: is the buck honest? If you don't tell me you are getting paid to promote a product and if all of these folks are being paid to preview the product for money and accepting advertising dollars, how can we trust their opinions or later reviews: the short answer is; we can't. It is why Consumer Reports reviews are believable and they have beaten numerous complainants who have taken them to court; CR does not take money from the folks they are reviewing and rigorously back up their testing. I don't agree with you about 'being crapped on' there is a difference between an ad hominem attack and being legitimately criticized, called out, and called to task in the comments. If you don't want gadflies telling you your baby is not beautiful, don't hold your baby up in public like they are the Lion King. Indeed many times we are part of the same hypocrisy, the TV comedy, "The Good Place", addresses this well. However, most of us don't have a voice and are not getting paid to publicly promote our opinion, so I challenge you on that. If I have a following, promote a stock, start a buying frenzy, pumping up the price then sell it and it shortly goes down substantially but I don't warn my followers, it is called pump and dump scam and is illegal. In closing, Youtuberatti taking money for these 'previews' is unethical, and if they take money and don't clearly state so upfront, it makes future opinions ethically suspect. Best regards, MrGunn PS Tell us more about why DB was banned from GenCon and what happened at the Dungeon Dudes party? PPS A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization, or have been paid to do so. If you disclose your relationship, then you are an honest advertiser.

MrGunn
>>144557688

@Fredric Schmitt Yeah she often goes too far, her video on this topic made light of the Highway of Death from the Iraq war, at best it was in poor taste.

MrGunn
>>144565294

@Jay I hope you are well. I do not agree a 'positive attitude' is a requirement for a vigorous debate. Being respectful and avoiding ad hominem attacks, I agree with, but one should argue when righteous anger calls for it. No body got to ride in the front of the bus or sit at a lunch counter by having a positive attitude. Further, I do not agree with you about your interpretation that all praise is public and all criticism is private. The saying applies to individuals being addressed by those of higher rank and in the context of personal feedback. It does not apply to organizations, policies or opinions of those public figures. When you go out in public as on social media and you give your opinion you must expect criticism. ;) I also disagree with, "to not bitch about an issue if you’re not at least going to suggest a reasonable solution or step up to offer help in resolving the matter." Outside of a work or combat situation this does not really apply. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the right to voice it. Just because I grouse about something, does not mean I automatically have to step up or offer an alternative. Not everyone has the time, gumption, responsibility or resources or ability to do something or provide an alternative. I vigorously disagree with your statement: "As for the Dungeon Tubers who cover D&D2024, someone will definitely cover it and get paid. Might as well do just that if you enjoy most of what that game has to offer."..."at least I hope they get their information from more than one source. After all, not everyone out there is completely ignorant, and I trust many people will choose to make informed decisions." That is the crux of the problem, one cannot make an informed decision if the folks you are relying on to give to give you honest opinions have been bought and don't tell you are they are shills and who bought them. When every loud voice in the room is the only thing you can hear, and the quiet voices are ignored you get an unnecessary middle-east wars and 300,000 civilian and military dead. In closing, I also agree with both you and the Professor, criticism should generally be respectful avoid ad hominem attacks, and at the end of the day, reasonable people should be able to put aside their differences, agree to disagree, and be able to still get along, be friends and perhaps break bread together. Best Regards, MrGunn

Saltheart

As for Being As for "Not Being the Coolest DM to your own people" -- Mark 6:4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” ---- this is a Timeless Rule apparently. :-) Great Vid... Thanks for Sharing!

Bryan Stephens

If people are given special access or payments, the cannot be considered objective. It is a dual relationship. Dual relationships create the impression of bias. Paid reviews are fine. The dual relationship should be disclosed up front, even if it is "I got this copy for free."

Jeff Jones

I'm calling dibs on the parmesan cheese concession for the spaghetti sauce match.

Jay
>>144565294

@MrGunn, as always, I appreciate your comments and heart felt, enthusiastic opinions. However, please know that I’m not a keyboard warrior. I’m a genuine fighter and have significant experience in conflict management sometimes involving, high value assets and life/death situations. That being stated, I find your statement to be mostly correct in your first paragraph with the caveat depending upon the totality of circumstances involved. However, disagreements should rarely if ever lead to immediate attacks whether verbally, electronically, fiery yet somewhat peaceful protests, rock hurling or other forms of escalation. For those of us who have dealt with conflict either diplomatic, social unrest, or violence, I find resolution is best handled at the lowest level of that ladder when feasible. I refer to this practice as disciplined restraint, preferably as peaceful and polite discussion. I must respectfully disagree and as a positive attitude can, in some cases, set a less hostile tone. It’s good to remember that “Approach typically denotes response.” Regarding paragraph 2 above and the matter of praise in public and criticism is private. Fact is you certainly do not have to agree with me. This practice has been used for generations even outside of the Armed Forces to include many of those agencies I have worked directly with such as municipal law enforcement, CIA, FBI, NSA, CID, NCIS, foreign agencies and so on. In my experience, including many of my colleagues, this practice certainly does work for just about any organization. For example, if choosing to aggressively chastise a subordinate publicly in front of their peers. The ramifications could lead to those subjected to it or witnessing it finding you unapproachable, embarrassed, less trustworthy, and perhaps even an adversary rather than ally. Jaded subordinates might look to throw you under the bus when the first opportunity presents itself. By-the-way, I’m getting the vibe of seething anger from your text here. Perhaps I’m mistaken. You tell me or perhaps others reading this may be getting that vibe as well. Anyway, I assure you that if so, it is unnecessary and perhaps you should have simply ignored my post if you disagreed with it. Yet since you didn’t, I will do my best to further extrapolate my opinion in hopes of better understanding and achieving some common ground. Yep, it’s just an opinion even though I profess it’s based on years of experience, it’s still just an opinion never-the-less and should be regarded as no better. So, no one needs to agree, and anger isn’t helpful in a simple discussion. In fact, it does drop the IQ quite a bit. Another rule of thumb or free advice, never address an issue while angry, especially important ones. Of course, this isn’t really important, but you know what I mean. Anyway, the discourse on Dungeon Craft is typically polite and enjoyable yet you refer to giving an opinion in public. Well, I doubt many would have the courage to say to my face what they will on-line even though I’m more likely to dismiss any baseless criticism regardless. So, you say criticism is expected on the internet, so it seems you are evidently correct. The online world is full of numerous pathetic and miserable people who enjoy making others just as miserable all while hiding their cowardly faces behind anonymous monikers and talking smack. Then there are those who want to bolster good ideas and have meaningful discussions. I fall into the latter camp. Just know that I generally enjoy your posts yet haven’t much interest in angry clashes over innocuous opinions. I just happen to have some time at the moment and hope this clears some things up with no hard feelings. Regarding the statement, “to not bitch about an issue if you’re not at least going to suggest a reasonable solution or step up to offer help in resolving the matter." This is certainly not limited to military work or combat. My point is simply that it is far more helpful to a predicament to attempt to offer a solution or suggestion even if it’s not perfect than just pointing out the obvious. The negativity from complaining can also become infectious in others and only makes things worse. Furthermore, it is unrealistic to expect others to resolve most dilemmas outside of yourself. The lesson is self-reliance. If you disagree, that’s fine. It simply works in my experience. As I read your post above, I swear I can actually feel the anger and hostility in your statements beginning with “As for the Dungeon Tubers who cover D&D2024, someone will definitely cover it and get paid. Might as well do just that if you enjoy most of what that game has to offer." So my question to you is …. Why Sooo Serious…I’m not sure if there was a miscommunication somewhere. The fact is we are in agreement on this matter and believe I stated that they should provide full disclosure of sponsorship. I believe we have reached some common ground in this matter. I would find it bewildering to see how this would have been a disagreement when I thought we were saying close to the same thing. Lastly, as for making informed decisions, I can see where you are coming from here and understand your concern. Nonetheless, we really haven’t much choice but to have faith that people will do their own research and come to the best conclusion that works for them. I don’t think the public is mostly ignorant here. Also concur, the internet is a messy and often vicious place, yet I choose not to propagate or participate in that type of rhetoric unless all lesser means have failed or can not be reasonably employed. In closing, I’m not 100% convinced that you truly believe your own closing statement based on all your previous comments but that’s just my opinion. What do you think? Leave your comments down below….Kidding. I don’t want to comment any further. Let’s put this to rest. Have a good one my friend. Best wishes as always

samurguybri
>>144576426

I heard the same story from a venerated Tibetan Lama. He was laughing about it. He said when he went home, he was mostly just someone’s brother or son. No one wanted to hear what he had to say about the Dharma!

samurguybri
>>144568073

I agree with most of your points but the original stance of the YouTube folks are not as reviews but as fans. The person who reviews restaurants for the NYT has to be held to different standards than I am as a (theoretical) YouTube fan of OSR style games. I can gush or be hyped by all kinds of titles with no regard to my objectivity. I do not claim to be unbiased or fair. In fact I’m the opposite; a fan. I want free stuff to see if I like it. If I like it more beacuse it’s free, cool. You are not watching me because I’m a reporter, but because you like what I like. If I like this, you may as well due to the fact my work/pov resonates with you. The world of media is very weird now and we are in a non-traditional transitional time. Roles and the very media presented to us is very novel. The folks are not really reviewers, but “sharers”. Not even quite promoters on purpose, but enthusiasts. What you outline are fantastic guidelines for a reviewer, but not a YouTuber, who is not primarily a reviewer.

Daniel Defazio
>>144568073

Much respect, Mr. Gunn. You pose tough questions and have a strong ethical code. I admire that. All of us in the YT space receive games for free, same way Siskel & Ebert saw movies for free. But whereas Gene Siskel said "Spacehunter 3D" was crap, I simply don't review the things I don't like. I get free stuff from Merry Mushmen, but I LOVE their stuff. Always have. Knock! is FANTASTIC. FYI, I was sent the PDF of Shadowdark and Knave 2, but I bought my books like everyone else. As far as saying people are "shills"--I don't care for that term. But they're being paid to advertise. As long as they're up front about it, that's cool as far as I'm concerned.

Daniel Defazio
>>144576426

Lol. I have frequently used that quote, but didn't want to comp[are myself to Christ. But I know what he means.

Justin Watson
>>144559460

In addition to being a bummer morally, it's also why I encourage younger people to understand how to use things like paper maps both in terms of road atlases and map-and-compass boyscout style. Having GPS in your pocket is dependent upon a constellation of countries having trade with each other, not all of whom are stable and not all of whom are friendly. China decides to grab Taiwan, good bye this entire generation of tablets, smart phones, and PCs among other tech.

MrGunn
>>144568073

@Samurguybri Thank you for responding. Your comment was very insightful, I really appreciated your perspective, it made me pause and think. I agree most YouTubers are just fans. However, I think what I am looking for is integrity, being a fan making videos is all good until you start getting paid for it, then the thorny ethical issues start. Timothy 6:9-11: But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil...

MrGunn
>>144568073

@DungeonCraft Thanks for taking the time to respond. I love the Merry Mushmen stuff too, you actually turned me on to it, so thanks for that. We will have to disagree about the use of the term shill, if you are paid to advertise or promote a product and don't disclose, you fit the definition of a shill. Otherwise, I agree with you that at a minimum folks receiving remuneration either in monies or kind need to fully disclose those relationships to avoid being called a shill.

Drago Russo

Good morning. This is why I am a "fan" of you and your channel. In the past, many years ago, I interviewed rock bands and people like that and I was never "awe struck" with anyone nor do I consider myself a "fan" of anyone. I think that people are people and I rather be a fan of what they produce as many times I am disappointed with the individual. In your case, what you produce, has been very influential for me and my development as a Game Master (yes with capital letters). But as a Patreon I have been able to look behind the curtain and get to know the man himself who is a husband, father, teacher, etc. You are much more than your content. The positive message and genuine care for others comes out in your videos and I can say that I am a "fan" of you the person as well as your content. On a side note, at Gen Con this year I am running an adventure that I have to cut down to fit in less than three hours of play. So how do I do this? Cut out everything that is Exposition and focus on the Demolition. Thank you sir for all that you do and allowing us to be a part of it all.

Scott Mckay

Personally, I'm in PDM's camp if the dungeon-tuber is open and honest about their dealings who am I to judge can I honestly say If they offered me money to continue making the content I already do I'd refuse? every viewer needs to choose if they are ok with that if not there are plenty of channels that would love the extra viewership. I'll struggle to trust any of the reviews now because it's biased however any general videos sure I may still watch. It does irk me that WotC can afford to do all the advertising but I'm also realistic about the world money talks with a loud microphone.

samurguybri
>>144559460

We cannot be ‘pure’ but we can reduce harm or act in areas we find important and shouldn’t been seen as hypocritical.

Justin Watson
>>144555812

I don’t disagree with you there. But on a scale of concentration camps down to WotC being dicks about whatever, well, both are less than ideal, but WotC’s iniquities barely register.

Graham Kane
>>144568073

I get your points MrGunn but I really disagree with the term shill in this context. The word only applies to those who a deceitful in promoting a product or company, in other words posing as a genuine customer. As long as Youtuber states upfront that they have been given the product to review then the term shill is unfair IMHO.

Graham Kane

Personally I agree that once the creator is upfront about everything then they are not doing anything immoral. As you say many Youtubers have to "make hay while the sun shines"! You're dead right about creators like Discourse and Ronald. Discourse in particular has been on the receiving some dreadful comments, but she's not afraid to call out big companies like Hasbro and GW. It's unfortunate that tearing down other creators has become a spectator sport for a select few Youtubers (who will remain nameless) but that seems to be human nature, unfortunately. And btw, it was an absolute pleasure to meet you and your family and friends in Dublin last month. Really enjoyed our chat and getting to play a game with you was a real thrill! Thank you for your time and generosity and I cant wait to see your video on your experiences in Ireland.

MrGunn
>>144568073

@Graham Kane I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond. I feel your dislike for the term shill, PDM felt the same way. However, based on my understanding of the definition; if you take money to promote a product and don't declare your partisanship, you are a shill. I don't believe I said everyone who accepts advertising monies was a shill, and I agree with you and PDM, that declaring your partisanship is a clear signal of integrity. However, there is always the potential for impropriety and ethics become muddled when money becomes involved. If folks inferred that I meant all YouTubers were shills or that PDM is a shill, that is on me for not being clear enough and is not what I intended. To further clarify, I do support Dungeons & Discourse calling out the named YouTubers, these folks are heavy hitters with a broad audience and deep community penetration, many of whom called out WotC over the OGL scandal but are now taking WotC's money to 'preview' D&D 2024 but are not disclosing the payments they are receiving. My call is for more transparency from YouTubers who have monetized their sites. Take care of yourself and keep those tough comments coming.

Martin Thomas

I guess I don't really love you since I won't be attending GenCon unfortunately, but I checked all the other boxes. Thanks so much for this video! It gave me a lot to think about. Hope you are doing well. Cheers!

Lemonsaurus

I'm curious would you be interested running the Tomb of Gyzengax for your group Professor?

Firstspear

I don't think we can fund $500K spaghetti WrestleMania, but I'd toss in $100 for PDM and Seth to do a spaghetti slap fight in a kiddy pool for us in Patreon. Anyone else?

Filippo Bettoschi

Very wise observations, dear Professor DM. I totally agree with you.

Russell Schiffbauer

I just wanted to say I appreciate your honesty and your passion for our hobbies you are an inspiration,keep them rolling