Home
Creators
Search Recent Random
Posts
Search DMs Popular Hash Lookup Tags Random
Importer
Import FAQ
Register Favorites Keys Review DMs Logout
Community
Telegram ThePornDude
Home Creators Posts Import Register Favorites Logout

Design Diary: Death & Critical Hits (Patreon)

Published:
2020-12-26 19:31:51
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:
haven't archived this post yet. have a subscription? use the importer!

Videos

Content

How I designed my critical hit charts, my influences, and discussion on how other RPGs handle the subject. 

Files

Previews only

Design Diary Death & Dying

This is "Design Diary Death & Dying" by DungeonCraft on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

Comments

Jesse Davenport

Great chart and great topic. I really enjoyed this video! As a millennial, I find it frustrating that so many people and products out there continue to operate under the idea that we want to be coddled. Absolutely no one I know in my age group wants a participation trophy, they just keep getting shoved on us regardless. I think DungeonCraft, OSR stuff, Mork Borg, DCCrpg, or even the success of video games like Darkest Dungeon or Dark Souls (and its iterations) clearly shows that there is a desire out there for something different. I'd love to see a video about this topic go up on YouTube, and as a millennial at least speaking for the people I play games with, no one wants to be coddled or be been seen as wanting to be coddled. We have a 5e game going on at this moment, and we we're always joking about how lame it is that by the book there is almost no way to die. We often quote Boris from Goldeneye, "I am INVINCIBLE!"

MoldvayINC.

Very insightful. CS Lewis writes about the participation trophy mindset in Screwtape Proposes a Toast. The "You're no better than Me" mindset.

robert fransgaard

Absolutely love this. Hope it makes it to YouTube in some shape

Old Man Zed

I think a youtube video on the importance of danger, death and mortality would be really well received. It is hard to know whether the 5E invincibility issue is a good reflection of what players actually want or whether it is the result of folks following the rules to that end result. Do new players prefer this, or are we accidently training them to accept it as the norm?

Old Man Zed

Mechanically - is the reduction to a Stat a -1 to the ability score (3-18) or a -1 to the modifier (-5 to +4)? It seems to me that a modifier penalty would be much more memorable, as a Stat penalty would only effect the modifier half of the time (losing a point off of an odd score doesn't impact the modifier). Upping the ability score penalty to -2 would allow the score and modifier to remain mathematically consistent.

Steven

Question : Why not just roll a d4, keep the number a secret; announce that player 1 is now bleeding out and let what happens Happen? If they survive they do so with long term or permanent injuries. " Mork just took an axe through his leg. Blood and bone sprayed over your faces. He's not looking good." They try to make their way over to him, only to be engaged by the enemy. Round ends. Next round. " You get to Mork only to find he is dead in a large pool of blood." DM had rolled a 1 on the d4. Simple and easy. Death, you never know when its coming.

Ryan Szesny

A few comments here: The latest version of icrpg has a d4 for rolling for dying, so that was an issue with them too, apparently. Even so, done a mega dungeon and a campaign in it and I had no problem putting the fear of goblins into them; you could roll a 1 and not every character is capable of healing. Every character can stabilize, but not heal... very important distinction in play because it takes 2 party members out for the round and if they are still fighting, that can turn bad fast. I am always amused when people say 5e is not lethal. It has a lot of tools for the dm to make the game they want. Even with rules as written, it can be a dangerous... the thing with 5e is it is based on attrition. 6 encounters a day is the recommended number if they get to a boss monster at full health and all their spell slots, they should be able to curve stomp them because of how the system works. Death saves in 5e do make it safer for a character, but why are baddies ignoring downed characters? They got downed by a villian, why would he not try to take them hostage for the party to surrender, kill them to ensure the number on the battlefield field actually reduces (this is a world with magic healing that is common), and take their stuff if they got good loot? Want to make a player freak out, have their unconcous body be drug away by a monster into the bushes in the middle of a fight.

Old Man Zed
>>50269377

That's a great point! One of my biggest grumps is when a character falls in combat and the enemies just ignore them completely while they lay their unconscious. A hungry beast should tear of a chunk to eat, and an intelligent creature should "check their work" (as it were) to keep the odds in their favor. I am sure that if my players thought the enemy was making death saving throws and could hop back up at any moment then there would be an onslaught of precautionary beheadings of downed opponents...

Newton
>>50264424

I also recommend the "secret" death approaches mechanic. It adds tension to the game.

Ryan Szesny
>>50269377

Yep, I admit that there are an adjustment to the system, not everything matches from previous editions. 5e does not like the big dang boss fight.

MSN2012

I think part of this is about timing and pacing. If the players can stop and rest frequently, a lot of the lethality is toned down. If the party has to keep moving, those spell slots and potions are exhausted and things get bleaker. I’ve noticed this a bit playing Adventurer’s League modules where the pacing is meant to be more pressured. A character who makes all their death saves is stable, but they still need to be healed if they’re going to continue. If the next wave of enemies is coming, things can get sketchy fast. The slow healing option in the DMG makes things more pressured, also. As noted above, it also requires that enemies be run intelligently. Does a creature with multi attack turn their attention to another target when the first target drops? Or does the creature follow through with the second attack because they’re already mentally committed? Same with humanoids, really. In six seconds you can attack, evaluate effect, adjust aim, and attack again? Realistically, you’re two attacks are likely to go to the same target whether the first hit drops them or not. A realistic approach to morale is also warranted. Why do all these creatures and humanoid enemies fight to the death? Why do so few turn and run when things turn against them? An old school morale check is in order. That won’t fix the lethality issues, but it would present a more realistic battlefield. There isn’t really a mechanic for disability, loss of limb, etc. but I don’t remember a lot of that being formalized in B/X, BECMI, or 1e either. It’s a nice flavor and realism touch. I’ve thought about having players roll for each stat if they get knocked unconscious and lowering the stat if they fail. Like, roll over your stat or lose a point. The more you’ve got, the more you’ve got to lose. You could go the other way and have them roll under the stat for more frequent effects.

Daniel Defazio
>>50264424

Will cogitate on this. I guess I was thinking "allow the player to roll the d20--that way THEY are responsible for their death instead of the DM."

Steven
>>50264424

Allowing the player to rollI takes away the whole Idea of surprise. The same way as the Death Saving Throw does. Everyone knows how many rolls the PC has before they die. "SECRET DEATH" ( Thanks Newton for name ) adds tension and panic.

Daniel Defazio
>>50236987

Jesse: here's your chance to shape the episode I am taping this week. When you say, "I'd love to see a video about this topic go up on YouTube"--what do you mean? Is the topic death? Millennials who don't want to be coddled? Is 5E is too soft? Also, can I quote you?

Jesse Davenport
>>50236987

Wow, thanks for the opportunity! Absolutely feel free to quote me (or paraphrase if necessary, I trust your judgement). I was primarily referring to the topic of death and dying in RPG's, but you happen to mention millennials and I thought it was an appropriate tertiary topic since millennials and gen Z kids are a major contributor to D&D sales and design now. I just wanted to toss my millenial hat in the ring and say “Hey, some of us at least don’t want to be coddled.” All the topics in the video you posted were great and I’d suggest using them in one form or another. I think the points you made about playing a game where there isn’t a chance of losing really drives home the idea. I don’t necessarily think 5e is “too soft” but its design intent seems to be to tell a story. With characters so heavily woven into the “game plot” with backstories and whatnot, it seems to want to keep them alive more than it wants them to risk death. Not that it’s inherently wrong, just an observation. Lastly, while I obviously don’t speak for a generation, I do find in my life that I’m always trying to outrun this spectre (I prefer the Bond spelling) of the “snowflake” and it’s nice to upend that opinion when appropriate. Thanks PDM!

Ryan Szesny
>>50312013

Yeah, the biggest issue with 5e is that it takes a lot of time to get to the same point you start in other games and it requires so much time for a gm to adjust to it instead of being intuitive.

MoldvayINC.
>>50269377

I believe that Jim Murphy (GamesMetheuslah), at times, ran the monsters against the PCs for early Matt Colville campaigns. This led to extreme lethality, apparently, and gave rise to the quote "The Earth Elemental steps on your head- To make sure you're dead."

Carl Rowe

I am a big fan of a dangerous game. I feel that this leads to a smarter if more cautious game, where suceeding/surviving seems more rewarding. When things are hard, it feels more earned. Not that it should be impossible, or unfair, but definitely difficult. The current edition feels a bit neutered in this respect. The risk/stakes seem low, so sloppy/risky/lazy play is glossed over if not reawrded. I want a game where if your character surives to 6th level, I know you as a player are a baddass, who makes good decisions. not simply a guy with a good "build". This is why I think XP for treasure is better than XP for kills, it rewards players for evading/thinking around encounters instead of going full murder hobo. Personally, I like the hidden death roll. When a player drops, they have d6 rounds to be saved, write the result of the hidden roll down, and show it to the first player to reach them. Aggravated damage taken after dropping drops the character at double the rate. This instils a sense of urgency, and you might engage in some risky behavior to distract that ghoul from snacking on your friend. To me, the game is exciting when it is tense and uncertain. To me, the game is at its best when it is more about smart choices and less about powerful builds.

Mark LeBay

How many character deaths have there been in your 30 yo campaign ?

William Smith

I agree with you completely about THAC0, but man, there is just some kind of amazing flavor bits asking a player to save vs. dragon breath or polymorph.

William Smith
>>50236987

Jesse, my son is Gen Z and he loves Dungeon/Mutant Crawl Classics and the high body count. He also loves the brutality of the WFRP game we are in (and the fact that is character had a broken jaw for 40 days.) I have some Gen X peers that refuse to play in games with a save or die mechanic because they feel like it takes something away from their character. Like, yeah the characters life. ;) I guess what I am saying is that it really is not as simple as sometimes we (the royal we) think it is to nail down generational differences.

William Smith
>>50264338

PDM, I am curious about that thought. You and Hankerin from Runehammer have inspired me to DIY my own vision of D&D. It took me long enough to be comfortable in the deep end and only use the modifier. I'd love to hear your perspective on that.

Daniel Gray Webb

I like the 1d20 though I am not a fan of the drop in mental stats. Something like your character is has a level of exhaustion or something like that for the next month. I don't think brain injuries are entertaining in any way as I work in a neuro critical care unit. I put it up there with people who try to roleplay what they think PTSD is like. I would just say your character is dead at that point. I also dislike the super power players, these days I start players at their backgrounds. Then I use milestones for levels and sometimes they don't get levels they just get feats or other rewards they earn.

Bernabe Costales

I run a lot of GURPS recently and it does have quite robust rules for getting into the danger zone for dying based on max hit point multiples. If you happen to be a tough kind of fighty sort, it is likely you have a trait (called Advantages) that makes you harder to kill and also have higher hit point totals to work with. You also have a chance to succumb and go unconscious before you get into the dying phase, but "fighting until you die" is very in-theme for a heroic game, particularly a swords and sorcery one.

Bernabe Costales

Death and dying technically need not be the only drivers of urgency in a D&D game but compared to older editions, a character takes more time to build. In B/X you could get a character banged out in like 15 minutes with a little bit of dice rolling involved since your characters were mechanically quite simple unless they were a higher level spellcaster. In 3e onwards you had quite a lot of options from level 1, so character creation just took awhile and could take someone out of active play for awhile as well. There's a few other nuanced things that move the graveyard farther away (hit dice scaling, how short and long rests are calculated, among other things) but the core system definitely does not set up characters to die for 5e D&D.