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New Video Coming Saturday/Sunday. The topic is... (Patreon)

Published:
2022-12-07 21:45:28
Imported:
2026-06

Content

Hi DungeonCrafters! I usually post videos on Friday but this weekend will see a slight delay. The topic will be my reaction to Ben Milton of Questing Beast's video about the 5E DM shortage. if you haven't seen it, here you go:

Questing Beast: 5E Has a DM Crisis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr5gtvvkTe4&t=308s

If you want to opine, do so below. I may use some of the comments in the video. I already taped a demo version, but it's not good enough for YouTube. So I am taping it again Saturday. 

Thanks for your patience.

--PDM





Comments

Michael Shea

He's spot on about survivorship bias. I'll mention that WOTC definitely used to have brand awareness consultants who surveyed people who weren't on the inside of D&D already. They did this for 3rd and 4th I know. I don't know if they did it for 5th or One D&D but I know they know what it is and how to use it. One thing to consider is that just because they're focusing their surveys on enthusiasts doesn't mean what they're making *won't* be good for new players. Only testing that specifically tells you that. It's always dangerous to tell stories after you have the data (called HARKing in scientific circles – Hypothesizing After the Results are Known). In other words, just because WOTC's doing this doesn't mean it's going to be bad or only focused on enthusiasts or whatever. If we wanted to prove that, we'd have to build another hypothesis and come up with another test. Honestly, I think there's a lot of D&D panic and doomsday saying these days. The YouTube algorithm loves it but there's not really any evidence to say things are as grim as I hear from these videos (not just picking on Ben's video here). Here's my prediction! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Oh shit. I just realized I'm writing about a totally different video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GNiU08w4cM But you should watch that one too. I think the QB video is definitely telling a story to make sense of data but I think it has a big flaw – the 5e rules have been around for 8 years and the hobby *exploded* during that time. A lack of DMs has been a problem for literally 50 years. I don't think its different now.

GM James

Generally speaking, my issue with 5e and the reason why I believe there is a DM shortage is the same -- lack of support. 5e, in broad strokes, is a fantastic *framework* to build around, but playing it strictly according to hoyle often leads to an experience that is lacking. As a result, 5e DMs are generally expected to improvise, make up mechanics on the fly or by putting in significant work ahead of time, and patch the system holes that may emerge on their own (spelljammer?). However, the DMG (and Tasha's, Xanathar's, etc) don't really offer any advice or direction on how to do that. There aren't any examples on how to create adventures, how to plot, how to prep, etc, meaning that a first time DM simply isn't going to have what they need to run the game effectively. The result is TERRIFYING for them, making them never want to DM again. Personally, I find DMing (or GMing, if we're gonna use non-trademarked terms), to be one of the most gratifying experiences in my life. I LOVE it. My play group, for YEARS asked me if I wanted to play instead, and I much, much prefer DMing. But I've also honed my reflexes for it over 20 years of play. Fifth Edition has too few DMs because most people expect being the DM to mean being a referee for the game, while 5e's design and implementation means that you have to be a writer, game designer, literary specialist, scheduler, and therapist at the same time. And that's a LOT of work that no wants to do, especially without any support or compensation.

Ernesto

IMO One DnD so far has only made the DM job harder by adding more complexity to 1st level characters, aka "mandatory" lvl1 feats. also, most of the things so far could perfectly be added in a Tasha's style book

Brad and Aidan

It's always been intimidating being a DM, especially if there's the risk that your players know the rules better than you. My solution with the group I played with in my youth was to be a player for DND but only be the GM for a different game like Top Secret or WEG's Star Wars. That way I couldn't be challenged on the rules because I had introduced my friends to them. As an adult, I run a 5e game for a group of high schoolers because I've become comfortable with winging it a lot. I don't actually have the 5e DMG and use a mix of 1e and YouTube to get by. But if I were closer in age to my players, I'd probably be more intimidated if I didn't know the rules. I think QB is right that a dungeon crawl requires less effort than a grand sweeping campaign, but that is group based rather than system based. You can do grand sweeping in whatever edition if your players want it and the DM is up to it.

Mark Blair

I recently came back to D&D having skipped 2-4th editions. I am currently running a 5e game. To me, 5e focus on complete rule coverage leads to cluttered and DM hostile materials. Adventure books from WotC are built to be read, not DMed. They are too much to manage at the table. After a couple years if standard D&D, my games are just OSR materials ported to 5e by just winging it. Much more OSE + PDM than 5e. 5e is too much work for everyone, even as a player. I feel it is more about inventing a cool OP character, and not about adventure and risk. Everyone wants to be a hero at 1st level, so we have feats and powers and complications that make it harder to prep and play.

Chuck Thorin

A lot too unpack here but I'll try to be brief. There's a lot of assumptions that's been built for new players. Everybody is The Chosen One. Being almost a super hero from the start. Balanced encounters. The DM is going to make my story great and also be my therapist. I did do some searching just to a general vibe. I see a lot of "Looking for DM" and I feel not so much "Looking for Group". The keystone in any group is the synergy between everyone at the table not just that one player and The DM. I also feel there's huge divisions in the greater RPG community. I still see silly things like some complaining about someone liking the wrong game or playing it wrong or just having the wrong view on anything. I think a lot of people just don't want to reach out to strangers or invite them to their table. It might not be worth the hassle.

Chris Baker

WOTC has clearly focused on the players, not GMs. And it makes sense in the short term--there are five to six players at a table versus one DM, so you want to sell books to players. All those character options get players excited, but pressure the DM to keep up with all those additions.

C. E. Housenick

I was thinking about RPGs in general - isn't there a natural imbalance between number of players and number of DMs? I watched the video, and by definition for a typical gaming group, you need one DM and four players, meaning DMs should be 20% of the D&D ecosystem. It would be wonderful if that percentage was higher, but I'm not sure that it is yet at crisis levels. I think that if the ratio of DMs to players were like 20:1 (20 players to every dungeon master), then there would be a crisis.

Brent Tomlonovic

I think the rise of the live play has an effect on the desire to DM. Many people don't realize how much goes into a live play behind the scenes. The well produced ones have whole teams making props and minis and things for the game. This creates an unreal expectation that is intimidating to people who may be coming from D&D through those channels.

Brent Tomlonovic

Also, I agree that the D&D 5e rules set often feels more like a framework on the DM side. The rules provide lots of player focused content to entice the player base, but outside of monsters, leaves a lot of DM content up to the DM. I like this because I have been a DM for almost 40 years so I can just wing it. But for a new DM, this can be a big ask.

Brent Tomlonovic

Something I have noticed as a person who organizes game nights at a store, it is way easier to attract new DMs if the table is also new players. New DMs tend to be more intimidated when running for people they fell know the rules better than them. Some experienced players are not always as patient with a new DM. Even if they don't say anything directly, just quietly switching tables next week can really shake a new DM's confidence. I also reimburse my DMs so that helps me with recruiting, but many new DMs are still very intimidated by the thought of running a game.

MrGunn
>>97128508

Yes, you are speaking about Baron de Ropp's video. Which is very good too. Good points over all, the speculation about 1D&D gloom and doom certainly drives clicks.

MrGunn

I saw this video and I commented on it. I also viewed Baron de Ropp's video along similar lines. I paraphrased my comments from both videos below: What does 1D&D need the most? It needs the designers to get out of their own way. Instead of refining the basic rules to address shortcomings and creating a highly flexible core system that allows DMs the option to control the level of complexity and layer on additional rules and features as desired and give players an easier starting point, 1D&D's designers appear headed towards interweaving a whole series of new mechanics, species, special abilities, and classes into the core rules and increasing PC power levels to satisfy players lust for 'winning'. How is a new player, let alone DM, supposed to follow, let alone learn all the new classes, species, spells and navigate the power creep if the basic core mechanics are not crystal clear and easy to learn? The bandaid solution will of course be yet another D&D basic set, which is not needed, 1D&D just needs clear, concise, and core rules, and a vastly improved DM's guide. D&D 5e is complicated enough and is already a very strange mix of classes, skills, and feats; it cannot decide what it wants to be. Is it a class based system; are feats just generic class features; why does it even have skills if there are classes and feats; why the panoply of furry races err species that are all better than humans? Do I like 5e, to an extent, it is definitely a return to basics in many ways and codified some great modern mechanics, e.g. advantage / disadvantage. It also got me excited about TTRPGs again after 20 years. However, it is very high fantasy and lacks a clean basic core that allows for easy adjustments to power levels. Finally, D&D still contains some of the basic design flaws of the original AD&D and 2nd and 3rd Editions had. For myself, do I want to run a 5e game? No, I am an OSR fan, I want to DM a less convoluted game, a more streamlined game like ICRPG, 5 Torches Deep, EZD6, Knave, Deathbringer or more likely a home brew OSR variant. More rulings fewer rules, more Grim more Dark, less math, and keep it simple stupid.

MrGunn
>>97128790

Hmmm... interesting views. I am curious, you stated: "As a result, 5e DMs are generally expected to improvise, make up mechanics on the fly or by putting in significant work ahead of time, and patch the system holes that may emerge on their own." Isn't that any GMs job, rulings when the rules are unclear? Personally I would argue just the opposite, instead of giving GMs the skills necessary to make rulings, 5e has been trying to codify every possible outcome, isn't that why Tasha's [correction Xhanthar's] has six pages for tools?

MrGunn
>>97132777

One solution to your rules knowledge problem is explain your lack of familiarity with the rules and appoint one of your players as the rules lawyer, the lawyer can help you make decisions. Also do as PDM does, no looking up rules during play. Finally, for it is the first commandment: DM thou art god of thy world, players shall worship no other DMs at thy table, the DMs rulings are final.

MrGunn
>>97133130

Sameses on skipping 2 - 4, I did have a brief flirtations with d20 / 3.5. Agree with you on Much more OSE + PDM than 5e.

MrGunn
>>97140585

Yes, but there can be no D&D w/o a DM. We call those other games cards or board games.

GM James
>>97128790

Sorry, my computer decided to eat the reply I was trying to write. And then I'm an idiot and I don't remember how the patreon commenting interface works. Anyway. Yeah, it's absolutely the job of the GM to improvise in the absence of clear rules. The issue that I have, and that I think I probably didn't do a super great job of writing out, is that 5e doesn't provide the resources that a newbie DM needs to develop the skills to play in the rulings not rules style. The DMG doesn't actually teach you how to DM. So overall, 5e wants to have it both ways -- they simultaneously want to say "look at all the codified options and crunch we have" while also saying "rulings not rules! The DM can make up anything!" As far as the tool proficiencies are concerned, that's actually in Xanathars (I just had to go check, it's been a while since I've flipped through either book). But I suppose that that's emblematic of the problem. 5e supplement books like to provide *some* mechanics. But not *all* the mechanics, not even all the mechanics that a DM *needs*. My big issue with that one is Spelljammer -- a MAJOR component of what people were interested in was functionally omitted, leaving it for the DMs to figure out on their own, which is not something that a NEW dungeon master should have to deal with. The 5e game mechanics are *relatively* complex, and it becomes pretty easy to completely unbalance them if you're not a little careful, or if you don't know what you're doing. Is it the end of the world, cosmically speaking? No. But from the perspective of a NEW dm, it can be extremely frustrating and difficult. So if you're a new DM, going into a game armed with multiple books (assuming you got the minimum number of books you'd need to start out as a DM, you'd have bought 4 books, the 3 core plus an adventure), you're naturally going to make the assumption that everything you need to know is in those books. And you're going to become frustrated when it isn't. When the combat doesn't run smoothly, when your players go off the rails and you DON'T KNOW how to handle it, because no one has taught you how. It's a skill and reflex that gets built over time. But it also tends to weed out people from DMing. If you start with a rules light game like Deathbringer, you're gonna know going in that the mechanics don't have all the answers. The game itself tells you that you need to learn how to make a narrative, build plots and arcs, and create drama. But 5e sells the idea that if you buy an adventure book it has all that for you, even though they absolutely don't. So I continue to contend that 5e doesn't provide the resources for new DMs to learn the craft. It's spotty at best with what rules it wants to provide for you and what it expects you to make up on your own, and offers little to no help in teaching the new DM the myriad skills they'll need to succeed. So I firmly believe that 5e's "DM shortage" is their own fault. Now that all said, I DO like 5e. Like I said, it's a great framework, and it's the game that the majority of my friends play. But I'm absolutely gonna be hacking it and offering other options to them, because I prefer a different style of fantasy.

MrGunn
>>97144549

Yes, players want you to DM like Mat Mercer but can't play like Laura Bailey or Sam Riegel.

Jay
>>97147558

Well stated sir. I agree on each and every point made. I would also like to add that I do not wish to re-learn the rules or the headache battling with new software just to play a game my group already enjoys. As for my group, we prefer a game with personal interaction in the same room. There is something lost over an internet connection that can’t be replaced. The dice, the people, the minis and terrain if used and perhaps many other details I’m not thinking of at the moment. In the wake of COVID it’s nice to be around real people we know or new ones we are getting to know. I’m sure One D&D will be great for some, but I do see some psychological element of personal interaction that might be lacking with One D&D. Social isolation can cause serious issues. Having led a small unit of well-trained armed forces personnel for periods of 9 to 12 months at a time in remote isolation, I can certainly vouch for this. People can develop Social Anhedonia coupled with a lack of empathy for others. Not to go too far off track here but I am reminded of the many children who were masked and not able to see facial expression or isolated outside of school during the lockdowns. Yet I digress. The world has enough issues without turning people into robots or developing dissociative disorders. Even I am guilty of spending too much time looking at a screen. Just my two cents.

MrGunn
>>97147558

Insightful as always Jay. I had not thought about the developmental consequences of wearing masks, interesting. I too would much rather play in person, than over a screen. I work in IT, so you can imagine all screens all the time. You had me going to the DSM V to look up Social Anhedonia, thanks for that, I love learning new things. Again thanks for reading my post and your kind words.

MrGunn
>>97128790

Fantastic follow up post James, much clearer, many of my views are in alignment with yours. Thank you for the correction, I had forgotten the tools were in Xanthar's. Totally agree with you on 5e or really most versions of D&D not giving enough good tools to new GMs, the DMG should have been Sly Flourish's The Return of the Lazy Dungeon Master, DMs don't need charts for treasure and artifacts, they need advice and step by step guides. I would disagree slightly in the area of the rules, I feel the core mechanics are not called out or modular enough in the PHB to really learn the core game. There should really be a core section of clear concise rules, with details on how to add complexity. LOL, I too have had many Patreon and Youtube comments get lost due to an errant click or tab refresh, I now compose many of them in Notepad then final edit on screen. Thanks for your response.

MrGunn
>>97138659

Yes, but there can be no D&D w/o a DM. We call those other games cards or board games.

Chris Baker
>>97138659

Agreed, it's why I said makes sense in the short term. In the long term, they will have a problem.

Graham Kane
>>97147558

That's an excellent point and one that, I dare say< is lost on WOTC. We've spent a couple of years with restricted social interaction. Finally, in person games are becoming more desirable, so WOTC are pushing an online environment for the game. When you think about it like that it somewhat beggers belief.,

Graham Kane

Suffice to say Ben's video is excellent as is Baron De Ropp's. RPG's in general seem to have a small community where I am (Dublin, Ireland). but the DM shortage is still apparent. My LFGS could'nt get an Adventurer's League off the ground due to lack of DM's. I was asked but to be honest I'm put of running 5E because of many of the points MrGunn and Brent Tomlonovic mentioned. The game needs to be simplified, I can't put it any plainer than that. Starter sets work well but the game quickly becomes impenetrable for inexperienced players. I have two home games right now. One is using my own mashup of Deathbringer, ICRPG and BECMI. The other is straight up Deathbringer. In the Deathbringer game I have three players with 5E experience, one of them has DM'd. I was expecting pushback on the simplicity of DB but it was quite the opposite, they find the game refreshingly simple and love the open, cinematic style of play. I'm sure if 1DnD "dumbed down" the game there would be complaints from the vocal minority but ultimately I think it would be good for the game.

Daniel Defazio
>>97186155

Hi Graham. I forget you're from Ireland. I will visit Ireland in July 2024. We must meet, have a pint, and roll the d20. Mark it on your calendar.