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Is Armor Class Broken?!(Extended) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-04-21 16:28:30
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

PDM analyzes why the Armor Classes in B/X and OSE are too high. 

Files

Previews only

Armor Class is Broken!.mp4

Comments

Bagel-Man

Was just discussing the topic of AC with my group yesterday. Excited to watch this, keep up the great work PDM!

RUNEHAMMER

I don't think its a too-high too low thing... the to-hit roll as a whole should be tossed

David Lake

More HP for the boss and less for the minions. Brilliant idea. I think players like to feel like their character made some contribution or difference, especially in combat.

Arkhein
>>106858099

In favorite of what? Defense rolls? Jenga? Arm rassling at the table? :)

Andrew

I actually don't agree with this overall direction. It seems like whether or not you hit is being reduced to flipping a coin or rolling a d4 1-2 you miss---3-4 you hit.. I suppose you could go that route for the sake of speed, but for me that looses something in the immersion. It makes the equipment and armor someone wears just a mere fashion statement rather than a practical decision with a practical impact on the game. So I'm much more in the "make armor count for something" camp. When you watch someone fighting in full plate harness, you realize just how hard they would be to kill on a battlefield. Not impossible, but definitely not easy. And I've found if you include armor as a part of your combat descriptions, your players will feel just as engaged, and they will feel confident in their armor--like they made a good decision when equipping their characters. "The goblin strikes but his spear is turned by your shield" "The orc swings his morning star, and though it doesn't penetrate your mail, all of your breath leaves you as it crashes into your ribs for three points of bruising damage." There's a personal taste aspect to this--do you like watching a good defensive game of football, where the final score is 10-3? As opposed to where the final score is 53-37?

Jay

PDM, a great video on a subject few discuss. I really enjoyed your insight on this and would have loved to be a fly on the wall at Scotty’s Horror adventure. Lucky you! So anyway, here’s my thoughts on the subject: - Scotty did a fantastic job introducing the Luck Dice mechanic with were fun and players could see and use at the table. I really like this mechanic as it is a lot of fun. However, as you stated previously, every additional step you add increases the crunch and slows things down even if it only slows it down a little bit. - Scotty really improved game mechanics by creating EZD6. The EZD6 mechanics remove all the variations of Target Numbers on a D20 while also minimizing much of the math from static bonuses or penalties aside from the really cook Karma Points. Yeah, I’m a big fan of EZD6 and it’s DYI system. He encourages Rabble Rousers (GM’s/DM’s) to home brew EZD6 and tailor it to you and your group. - One of the issues I have with the D20 is that it is a pass/fail mechanic coupled with a damage roll that is independent of the to-hit roll. What I mean is, if you need a 16+ to-hit (25%) and you roll an 18 your strike doesn’t do anymore damage than if you rolled a 16 and it shouldn’t because, again, this is a pass/fail mechanic with no variation in probability between numbers rolled on the die. All equal to 5% probability. Also, why critical hits and critical failures are 100% arbitrary. No greater chance in rolling exactly a 5 or exactly a 20. The damage roll being completely separate is what matters and shows the degree of success in a hit. Games that allow 2 or more dice show variation in achieving any particular number give results meaning. Greater results equal greater strikes as lesser results may yield poorer results. As this is a bell curve, a “great” swordsman can expect to perform more often as “great” with less swing in the results as the pull toward the average. This is often the case in EZD6 when rolling 2 or more dice or any other game that uses multiple dice in determining results. In my opinion, the best of these games use only a few dice (no more than say 4 or 5) in determining results. However, the D20 to-hit roll is both very swingy and does not demonstrate any additional degree of success correlating to the completely independent and separate damage roll. I see this as a slot machine mechanic rather than a mechanic that shows competency on the part of the character. I can clearly see why Mel of Agrimoore found the combat mechanics to be slow and frustrating. - Lowering a foe’s HP is a good idea yet I prefer strikes as it is less dice rolls and the math is simpler for younger players. - To be sure, I still play D20 systems too but can also find them a bit frustrating. Thank goodness for DM Scotty’s luck mechanic and use of Strikes over HP. Just my two cents for what that’s worth. Happy gaming everyone!

Ron F.

Deathbringer has no chill! That coming from this casual Pistons fan.

Masterhit
>>106858099

Cairn (an Into the Odd / Knave hack) just has you roll damage and subtract armor (usually 1 or 2). Low hit protection and fast combats.

Masterhit

When people were hinting about this 'gamer retreat' I was almost jealous enough to create a time machine, go back a few years, start a Youtube channel, and gain some cred just so I could attend :) Of these things, the Youtube channel would have been the toughest (just edging out the creation of a functional time machine) because I am too self-critical to put myself out there. Sound like an amazing place to have been.

Masterhit
>>106862505

I think the problem with that analogy is that a defensive struggle takes (roughly) just as long as a high-scoring game. Here the combat taking hours is the topic, not necessarily the narrative. I guess if you reduced all the HP down (simulating a low-scoring game) rather than reducing misses/AC (high-scoring game) it would achieve the time reduction as well.

Andrew
>>106862505

You know---ever since I ditched initiative and went with simultaneous attacks based on weapon reach instead, almost all of my combats are less than thirty minutes now--if a combat takes an hour it's because it's big with lots of moving parts and movement to it, so there's always something for the party to be acting upon or reacting to. This is with six players. Missiles--magic wands or other items with stored spells, melee combat, cast spells or spells read off scrolls, end of round missiles--next round. It just goes fast. Armor Class doesn't hold it up, and in fact, if you have different creatures with different armor classes, what often happens is that you wind up with a battle that has even more movement as flanks get crushed, there are strong points and areas the party can exploit, or morale breaks, and it turns into a route and a battle of pursuit. So it helps create variety in combat.

SJBehindtheScreen

Professor DM. A walking TPK on both sides of the screen.

Frank Matthews

Agreed that its better to lower AC and add more HP just to make sure the players stay invested and feel like they’re making progress. Not in every case of course, but if it makes sense that the chances of hitting the monster or NPC would be easy to average… just buff the HP and let them slice away. Of course, as you previously taught… adding other environmental challenges or critical storytelling moments that come to a head during the combat helps ramp up the tension more than just “uhhh I shoot the dragon with my crossbow”.

MrGunn

Geez DB if you were going to pick on a Michigan pro sports team, why the Pistons and not the Lions? Did you miss the point spread on the last game? If you are going put down a team, the Lions truly stink, they have the dubious honor of once losing every regular season game and have never won a Superbowl, by contrast, while this season the Pistons are down 17-65, the Pistons have won 3 NBA championships.

MrGunn
>>106862505

@Andrew I like the the idea of simultaneous combat, where can I learn more about this mechanic and how to implement it?

Jay
>>106884685

Hi Frank, I tend to agree with your position on the matter. What I mean is, if the AC is high, it would make sense to lower the HP so when a “Hero” makes a strike against it, it is meaningful and doesn’t drag out combat. Yet, as you suggest, if you lower the AC and while raising the HP to what the GM and group feel is reasonable number, hits happen more frequently while only having a marginal impact on the foe or character. That would give the feeling of at least making progress toward defeating a foe. Since HP are an abstract concept and lowering them has absolutely no negative affects on a characters or foes spell casting or combat performance, loosing a few of the increased HP total will make players feel their characters are making progress toward defeating the foe. In this case, HP are what PDM has past referred to as a timer. They could represent non-lethal wounds such as bumps and bruises or perhaps even a level of fatigue. Just brainstorming here but here is one alternative just off the top of my head: Lower the to-hit target numbers of AC yet let the GM attach a particular amount of HP to the armor and add that to the character/monster HP total only while it is worn. That way someone in say full plate might be hit more often yet the armors HP represents the damage being reduced. This type of damage reduction eliminates any need for subtracting damage from dice rolls. The way I heard it, someone in full plate will still feel the blunt force trauma of a mace, maul, or Warhammer perhaps doing non-lethal damage even if it doesn’t actually penetrate the steel or the wearer taking real physical damage. The abstract nature of adding HP to armor and then to character HP totals while it is worn could easily represent that. Yet I haven’t fully thought that out or tested it. On the surface it seems feasible but what do you think?

Andrew
>>106862505

Replacing initiative experiment: New Combat Order of attacks. No initiative dice are rolled. Once combat is joined, combat goes in this order. Combatants with similar weapons or attacks go at the same time. 1. Initial missile attacks: bows and crossbows, then thrown weapons such as spears, hand axes, daggers, etc. 2. Magic: Wands, staves, rods, rings and other items with stored spells go first, then cast spells, and finally spells read off scrolls are declared. 3. Melee & middle missile attacks: Weapons with the longest reach will go first—This order will repeat for character with multiple attacks unless circumstances dictate otherwise—for instance the party is in a very tight press and long weapons are too unwieldy. • Pole weapons that are 8+ ft. (pikes excluded for obvious reasons) • Long weapons: Two handed swords, great axes (Dane axes), pole axes, 6’ spears, quarter staff, etc. • Medium weapons: Bastard swords, long swords, maces, any one-handed weapon between three and four feet long. • Short weapons: Short swords, clubs, daggers, iron spikes, • rocks, fists, claws, bites, etc. 4. Cast magic: Cast spells and spells cast from scrolls take effect. 5. End of round missile fire: bows and crossbows, then thrown weapons such as spears, hand axes, daggers, etc.

Andrew
>>106862505

Just resolve each order as they come up--initial missiles, stored spells, melee, who ever has reach going first, cast magic, end of round missiles--I get though this so much faster even than D6 group initiative, which has certain logical problems that don't happen here. My inspiration for this was PDM's video on getting rid of initiative, and from a guy named George Silver, who was a 16th century fencing master from Scotland (Yes, I'm something of a HEMA nerd too.) One of the things he talked about is how the time of the hand is faster than time of the foot, and what he was talking about was closing distance. I put the idea to my group and we tried it as an experiment and we've never looked back.

Graham Kane

Professor DM: making sure PC death is a threat even when he’s a player himself!

MrGunn
>>106884685

@Jay. HarnMaster has the problem of heavy armor yielding no damage until someone gets lucky. HM has no hit points or hits, it uses a fatigue and graphic injury model where hits do real physical damage lowering stats and abilities and adding to fatigue until the opponent is too injured / fatigued to continue, lots of bookkeeping but the combat mechanics are sound enough, falls into the simulationist model of TTRPGs.

MrGunn
>>106862505

Obviously real life combat is fast and deadly. The interesting thing is PC parties are small 4-6 consisting of amateurs who have no training in unit tactics or close order drill. Obviously five guys with spears and shields in close order will be better off defensively especially at a choke point, than five spread out guys. Maintaining a cohesive front in the face of an opponent is critical, a well trained and equipped unit, with good leadership can defeat many more opponents, Alexander crushed his opponents outnumbered sometimes five to one. The Romans often faced superior numbers and prevailed.

MrGunn
>>106858099

Hankerin ya stinker ;), you can’t just half pull a lanyard like that and just let go, Where’s the Kaboom, the Earth shattering Kaboom!?

Andrew
>>106862505

Exactly, and that feel is part of what I try to achieve in my games. Depending on the situations, the knight in our party will be upfront, the landskenecht mercenary will be attacking over his shoulder with her glaive guisarme. I love and organize combats to encourage real tactics in combat with a good dose of cinematic flourish. And if you try this experiment with your group let me know how it goes.

MrGunn

PDM, I see what you are saying about the mechanics of AC and HP from a GM’s perspective, knowing the balance is very helpful and aids the GM to focus on rules less and move the game and story along. However PDM, I do kinda agree with Andrew above, if you start simplifying a game too much you squeeze the flavor out and reduce things to the flip of a coin or worse just telling each other stories, from there it just a short drop into the world of poetry slams and NPR’s the Moth; where is the fulcrum to balance between random variability and preordination? Jay also makes some good points in favor of the bell curve rather than the linear pass fail approach of the d20. An interesting video for sure and I love your skimming off the dross of modifiers and rules to get to the precious game mechanic at the heart of a system and how that knowledge will make you a better GM. Perhaps some more videos about basic game mechanics and the differences in approaches with pros and cons will be forthcoming. Wishing you and yours the very best.

James Rubio

They don't call him Deathbringer for nothing.

Jay
>>106884685

Thanks. That seems interesting and I may check it out.

RUNEHAMMER
>>106858099

thenn brace yourself for CROWN AND SKULL... but yeh cairn and odd are current favs to solve this

Jay
>>106862505

MrGunn. The unit tactics you describe using spears and shield is called the Phalanx. The movie “300” depicts that very well in the Hot Gates choke point. A fun movie in my opinion. Yet, I feel that in RPG type games these types of tactics are lost or rarely used especially by novice players. Yet, wargaming seems to often use many such tactics. The only place I’ve seen this used in an RPG is the recently released EZD6 Book of Quests. One of the adventures has enemy soldiers forming a Phalanx of spears and shields to fight off the Brazen (Player Characters). I was surprised to see it used but the rules are simple enough and seem pretty cool. I think it would be fun if medieval military tactics could be used by the players more frequently. With regards to plate armor, according to some YouTube Channels, once the technique of hardening steel through heat treating and quenching was developed, soldiers in full plate were very difficult to kill. Most weapons were unable to penetrate the steel yet if they did, they usually were stuck in the armor. According to many of these historical type videos, soldiers in full plate were usually defeated by knocking them off their feet and daggers or other types of blades thrust between the vulnerable spots. Aside from this, blunt force trauma applied to plate armor, even if it doesn’t penetrate, could stun, knock over, or wear down an individual wearing it. Enemy soldiers tacking someone in full plate or wearing them down to the point of exhaustion could also be deadly. Anyway, interesting discussion and it has me thinking.

Daniel Defazio
>>106869095

I was going to go with the Knicks--my hometown team. But they are performing uncharacteristically well this season. I hope you don't take it personally, Ron. Deathbringer insults me all the time!

Jay
>>106858099

Thanks for the tip on Cairn and Into the Odd. I just checked out some reviews on them out and wow! I've never seen game mechanics like that. Some really innovative stuff. Definitely going to pick up a copy and play test them.

Andrew
>>106862505

That video was a real eye opener for me--I can't recommend it enough. The only thing I really added to it was deciding the order of attack by weapon reach.

Andrew
>>106862505

The biggest problem with plate armor isn't weight, but exhaustion and over heating. Most likely, knights and men-at-arms in full plate harness probably used some sort of buddy system in battle, where they would rotate out. That said, fatigue doesn't set in for several minutes, so if your combat rounds are 6 seconds, it's a non factor in most game combats.

MrGunn
>>106869095

@ DungeonCraft I would think Mrs. PDM and your ‘ungrateful’ 😉children had the primary responsibility of keeping your ego in check, strikes me DB is just piling the on 🤣🤣🤣

MrGunn
>>106862505

h@Andrew Yep Tunic, britches, gambeson, chain coat, plates, coif, helm, great helm, greaves, gauntlets, hobnail boots… getting ready for battle took time and assistance, then there’s all that standing around waiting to fight, must have been brutal in the summer and you better have gone potty before you suited up, no pit stops in that outfit.

jnlsn family

If your combat is taking too long that is a DM problem. If you can't understand a 2 step game mechanic, you should be playing a simpler game.

Jay
>>106973102

Jnlns family – You state - “If your combat is taking too long that is a DM problem.” This eliminates the possibility of literally anything else that could slow the game down and seems to be an oversimplification that disregards and delegitimizes the concerns of Mel of Agrimoore, PDM, and everyone providing constructive discussions in the feed. Then you further state – “If you can't understand a 2-step game mechanic, you should be playing a simpler game.” As if this doesn’t completely insult the intelligence of everyone as well. This is ironic really as I don’t see how anyone could find this as being a smart move. Furthermore, I’ve seen some of your other comments on here and you were right to delete them before others could respond as I doubt many would have appreciated them. FYI, disagreement is always fine, yet nobody likes an angry troll who provides condescending feedback or insults everyone else for having an opinion. PDM has expressed his dislike of hateful comments, many of the other subscribers have as well to include my friends at Patreon. Maybe that type of discourse is the norm on Twitter and other sites, but it is discouraged here. “How to Win Friends & Influence People” by Dale Carnegie was recommended by Baron De Ropp and it’s a good read.

Frank Matthews
>>106884685

To me it is the difference between having your players hit less but do more relative damage, versus having your players hit more but do less relative damage. Both can work depending on the particular monster or NPC the player characters are facing. Final battle with a villain who can teleport and cause the player characters to miss? High AC and low HP. Owlbear attack while PC’s are traveling through the forest? Lower AC higher HP. When HP and AC are both really high, which can be valid for some monsters (say, a flying dragon) it can make a combat move really slowly… but may be appropriate for higher level characters with some special items or weapons to aid them in combat with these monsters. Again, all my opinions. Not saying how anyone should run their game :)

MrGunn
>>106973102

@Jay Nerve struck, YOWZA.... LOL :). I agree jnsln family's post is a bit provocative, and I don't agree with his assertion. PDM and other's are correct, even when both players and DM know the rules well: more crunch = a slower game, it is a simple formula. However, there are those who prefer a more complex game, Checkers to Chess, Stratego to Advanced Squad Leader, I suspect jnsln family is one of those who prefers a crunchier game, each to their own.

Jay
>>106973102

MrGunn, thank you for your comments and as usual I must agree. Everyone has their own preference and should play their games however they choose. I've always been a proponent of that. For me, it's simply a balance of getting the game mechanics out of the way quickly to continue the narrative yet not at the expense of verisimilitude or immersion. Never-the-less, I'm always open to new ideas and game mechanics that can do that or are just plane fun such as the Jenga Tower used in Dread. Whatever best entertains the group. I typically respect the ideas brought forth by others even if I don't care for their methods and you will not likely catch me insulting them for having an opinion. However, make no mistake, that I will stand up for myself if I feel included in an insult painted with a broad-brush. In my opinion, the vast majority on here are intelligent people who can express themselves very well and do a good job contributing to the discussion at hand which has value. Nobody needs to be talked down to as if they are stupid. I believe this is all I need to say about that.

Scott P

One of the things I like about warhammer (the Warcry skirmish game at least) is that you always have a 33% chance to hit. On a d6, a 5 always hits and a 6 always crits. Depending on the difference between relative attack and defense strengths,The hit threshold gets better-- a hit is a 4 (same attack/defense ratings) or on a 3 (attack greater).

jnlsn family
>>106973102

For your information, I am not trying to insult anyone. Unless I am mistaken I can think and say what I want. Can you not understand this? Keeping it civil is a good idea. You seem like you spend too much time on the internet. Or maybe you're just having a bad day. Unless I am mistaken, you should get some sun. Really simple things like that can have a drastic impact on your mood. So give it a try! Even if you do it once you can see a change. Let's agree to disagree moving forward. Friends?

Rhett Burgess

Love this channel and love PDM BUT I completely disagree with him on this topic.

Flash Gorgon

Proff DM is on the right track but I think he's missing the boat. In melee, everyone automatically hits. That's just the way it is. What's difficult however, is defense! Instead of rolling to hit, you should only be rolling to defend.