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FLEX DICE (Extended) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-05-22 01:00:47
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

How Flex Dice (aka DM Scotty's Luck Dice/Deathbringer Dice can replace virtually every D&D feat. If you have trouble viewing this content, try a different OS or device.

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Previews only

FLEX DICE

Comments

Bagel-Man

Excited to watch PDM

shawn rader

Very cool idea, should speed up b combat.

William Smith

I love that joke, but I am sure the internet have something to say about it.

GM James

I'm a HUGE fan of the luck dice/flex dice mechanic. I've been running a Shadowdark campaign, and I've modified my game to use the Flex Dice and Group Initiative systems from Deathbringer, and it's made a great game even better. Yet another great video!

James M Spahn

This is a great video, but I'd argue a +1 bonus is only inconsequential mathematically speaking. What it does is implicitly encourage players to lean into the expected tropes of their class (or whatever). It's a subtle element of game design that offers a minor "reward" for playing to type.

Bill Carroll

For MacDeath, I re themed them as "Henchmen dice." Throw your Henchmen under the bus to get a bonus!

DJ Wilson

Wow! Love those dice on the thumbnail! Where do you get those??? Sweet!

Agile Monk

Awesome as always good sir.

A Name Apart

Could you use the d20 to hit die to adjust average PLAYER damage? If the player has to roll a 12 to hit and they roll a 16+ then their average damage is maybe +2

Steven

I love the idea of being able to have PC's try amazing things that out of their skill range. It reminds me of my last year of Football. We lost both our Quarterbacks and our Kicker convinced the coach he can play QB. We gave him our best Bardic Inspiration. He got behind center, hiked the ball and didn't wake up till 5 minutes later. Down by 2pts, No QB, No Kicker, a Field goal wins it for us. Our coach hyped up our punter to be the hero. He trotted out on the field, lined up his kick and the ball was hiked. He kicked the ball into the back of our center. But hey, we gave players a chance at a position they had no skill at. I think there are reasons each class and race has strengths and weakness skill wise. That's what separates and makes them unique.

MrGunn

Thanks PDM, I appreciate you for sharing your insights. Here is what I think, as usual you bring our community some interesting things to think about. In this case, I am concerned where you may be headed. Lately you have done an outstanding job of deconstructing game mechanics to their essential elements, arguing for simplicity. However, in this case I believe you have gone bit too far. Certainly, protagonists need to protag, but seriously, do you send a plumber to do your taxes or an accountant to fix your leaking pipes? Some things are just not possible no matter how many DeathBringer (DB) dice you have. At 00:50, you describe how you are trying evoke the tropes of specific genre of literature e.g. Conan and the Gray Mouser. This statement underpins the rest of your argument, but I don't think it is articulated well enough. The implication is your audience wants to play that type of game too, not every one does. I think it would be better if it clearly describes the mechanic as an approach to streamlining game play, so as to allow more focus on narrative. At 01:40 you seem to brush off asking; 'Is it on your character sheet?' I don't understand this criticism, there are many many times that someone has forgotten something critical needed to achieve something. Logistics is an entire science devoted to ensuring everything needed is available when needed. For example, how many times have you had to fix something around your house, gone to the hardware store, returned, gotten halfway through the job and realized you needed some specialty tool, adhesive, fastener, part or what not required to finish the job, because either you failed to plan the work properly or some unforeseen circumstance arose. You go on to state, 'I would never forget my light source when cave diving', tell me you never forgot to bring your wallet to said same hardware store and had to turn around and retrieve it, how is the air pressure in you spare tire. If only Richard had had a horse, he would still be king? I like Five Torches Deep's approach to this, where the player rolls against their Intelligence to determine if they thought to bring what was reasonably needed within their class boundaries or if they thought to bring extras. Without some sort of inventory system, why even have a list, just use Fate's roll a die system to see if you have an item under your magic hat, like the wizard on the DnD animated TV series. At 01:50 you opine that character sheets put 'blinders' on the players creativity. I can see it now; I cast fireball! But you are playing a fighter not a wizard, it says, fighter, on your character sheet. I know, but I don't want to be limited by my character sheet! Don't game rules by their nature put limitations on player choice? To follow on, you don't put the weak wizard on point, you put the strong fighter out front. Referring back to a prior example, do you send a plumber to do your taxes or an accountant to fix your leaking pipes, no you send the best suited character to do the task. It is not a lack of creativity, it is common sense. The game was specifically designed to have players use character's with differing classes to succeed. Regarding 02:17, Game Master's are not raconteurs or story tellers. First and foremost Game Masters are impartial arbiters of the game's rules, their main function is to provide rulings on player requests and situations not specifically detailed in the rules (which is why I prefer the Old School Renaissance (OSR) approach over that of DnD 5e or Pathfinder 2e and agree with you, the more and specific rules a game has, the slower the game). A Game Master's second function is that of reporter tasked with vividly describing the game's milieu and current situation. Wanting to create a narrative is fine, but I feel you are dangerously close to turning a game into a poetry slam, an episode of the Moth Radio Hour or worse, a book reading. Step away from the precipice, protagonists protrag and do what they need to do when they need to do it because they have an author, player character don't have an author. Protagonists get things like plot armor because the author decides their destiny; player's fates are in the hands of the dice gods. One reason Game of Thrones was so refreshing, is the show killed off legions of high profile and beloved character's. It was exciting b/c you did not know if your favorite character would lack a chair when the music stopped at the end of that week's episode. I don't expect GMs to tell a story, I expect them to set the stage and make fair rulings on my character's decisions within the framework of the game's rules. Players create the narrative, the GM sets the stage. I think you are saying this, but I don't think the video is clear enough. As to feats and skills in DnD, I hate them! First off skills have no place in a class based game and feats are just class abilities that give any player a class ability their class does not have access to, diluting the purpose of having a class in the first place. A class by its nature is an archetype and as you describe at 05:45, a loose descriptor of the boundaries of what a character is capable of, a fighter does fighter things, a wizard casts spells, etc. Skill based games attempt to specifically prescribe a character's capabilities, often times using a background or profession (kinda like a class, hmmm) to define a character's competency in specific areas. Modern and Sci-Fi games are very difficult to pull off and less popular because the more advanced a society becomes, the more and specialized jobs it has, even within professions there can be a wide array of sub-specializations e.g. engineering or medicine, hence the more complex a game's rules need to be. No, I do not think Deathbringer's joke lands well (mostly because I like it ;). I would come up with something different, I am thinking a Chuck Norris joke, but with DB, e.g. DB is so bad ass he is his own luck dice, always scoring maximum damage, (terrible I know). Regarding the bonus material, good sir, you are technically incorrect, the worst kind of incorrect. The dice you refer to at 08:38 are not 'Fate' dice, that is Evil Hat propaganda, they are more properly known has FUDGE dice. Now, are players ready for static weapon damage using FUDGE dice, hmm, I don't know. I am really on the fence on this one, rolling dice is fun, getting that high number feels great, but math is annoying. As an aside, I might change the mechanic to be minus does minimum weapon damage, blank does average damage, and plus does maximum damage. Now a point of clarification, do Deathbringer dice allow you to shift the FUDGE die one or two increments to improve a minus to blank or a blank to a plus to for maximum damage? Does one roll a DB die and add the value to your overall average damage total? For example, I am a fighter, I rolled a blank FUDGE die, my long sword does 5 points of damage + 2 for my strength bonus, for seven points of damage. Now, do I roll a DB die and add the number to my damage total or do I shift the FUDGE die roll to a plus for maximum damage, how is this supposed to work? Chuck Thorin made this point better than I: "As far as static damage+Fudge dice. Seems like just substituting one die roll for another." Now we are on the subject, why don't we just replace DB dice with FUDGE dice? I mean a minus could be +1 ,a blank +3, and a plus +6, easy-peazy? Your approach is an interesting one, needs noodling and play testing, can't wait for a follow up report on how the experiment went. In conclusion, I think this video's script needs a bit more refinement and clarification. I am certain some of my critiques are based on a misinterpretation or mischaracterization of your points, which is why I think a bit more clarification is needed. Overall a very interesting topic for discussion. Glad to hear you are on the mend, thanks again for the insights you provide.

MrGunn
>>109033414

@Bill Carroll The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round. LOL

samurguybri

First, thanks for introducing me to DM Scotty’s Luck dice a while back. I bout it from his site and added it to our 5TD game and it simply shines. I like the idea if using average damage for monsters, but I think the players like rolling dice. You mention this before, rolling dice is fun! The adding and all that does slow things down, so I think a discussion needs to be had to see what the players would like better. Thanks for the food for thought.

Patryk Antos

Instead of using +/- Dice, You can get bonus damage if you roll high enough on the Attack roll. You beat the AC by 5, double damage, you beat it by 10 - triple damage. Natural 20 is always triple. Don't know the math on this but it should be even faster. Especially if you have three AC values. Great video as always PDM!

A Name Apart
>>109037983

Thinking more about the math: maybe increase their damage by 5% for each point above the to hit roll. So if you need 12 to hit and the average damage is 10 and you roll an 18 you do 3 extra damage

William
>>109044124

I've had a very similar idea with my home game. On a success, you do 1 damage. Your weapon has a bonus (+1, +2 or +3 based on size) then you get +1 per 5 that you beat the DC. I think eliminating the damage roll speeds the game up so much. I was watching an actual play of the Game of Thrones system. It uses a similar approach to you. (it's a d6 system) The total of your dice makes a number. If you beat the opponent's threshold you do your damage. If you beat double the threshold you deal double damage etc. I think you're onto something here

Daniel Defazio
>>109033414

I'm working on "Slaughterous Maximus"--a prequel to Titus Andronicus--and I'm considering a similar mechanic.

MrGunn
>>109041799

@Brian Oldfield I have similar feelings around dice rolling.

Joshua Owens

Excellent video as always. Also, we normal people find your sense of humor delightfully funny and harmless. Unfortunately however, it seems we are the minority of the internet now.

Jim Havoc

Hey Professor DM. I like the missing model joke and thought it was funny. So you should probably lose it. I think Hankerin' Fernale / Runehammer uses static weapon damage and I've been toying with the idea. I think it adds clarity, but maybe I'm addressing a problem that isn't really there. Keep up the great work!

Chuck Thorin

Great video. Keep the joke. Anyways, my players love the Deathbringer Dice and they've been having a blast and they've saved party a couple of times too. And to expand on Deathbringer Dice. I took an idea from one of Art of Genre's modules of using a similar mechanic for enemy spell casters. Instead of tracking spell slots and a spell list, the bad guy has a pool of d6's that refresh every round and they are used to simulate whatever magic effect may be needed. As far as static damage+Fudge dice. Seems like just substituting one die roll for another. The good thing about Deathbringer is that players will be only one maybe two dice for damage usually. They aren't checking for bonuses for class powers, feats, or other stuff and then rolling a handful of dice. I understand that it works out mathematically to speed up the game but it takes out that emotional rollercoaster for the players when they minimum or maximum damage. And depending on the situation when an opponent gets down to 1 or 2 HP, I've had them drop, flee, or surrender.

MrGunn

FYI RPGPundit just published an interesting video about D&D game design.

MrGunn
>>109055411

@Jim Havoc " I like the missing model joke and thought it was funny. So you should probably lose it." I actually laughed at this, you described my feelings exactly! :D I edited my post and paraphrased your comment.

MrGunn
>>109057010

@Chuck Thorin I liked your post! Here's what I think (shout out to PDM ;), "Instead of tracking spell slots and a spell list, the bad guy has a pool of d6's that refresh every round and they are used to simulate whatever magic effect may be needed" I thought this was inerestingg, seems similar to EZD6's system. Some expansion on this topic would be appreciated e.g. does the pool contract as the baddie take damage :) I like your points here: "As far as static damage+Fudge dice. Seems like just substituting one die roll for another." "I understand that it works out mathematically to speed up the game but it takes out that emotional rollercoaster for the players when they minimum or maximum damage" Yeah, I kind of agreed, and I said so in my response, though not as eloquently :), so I edited my post and cited you. Another great point, "And depending on the situation when an opponent gets down to 1 or 2 HP, I've had them drop, flee, or surrender." Overall great reply Chuck Thorin.

SJBehindtheScreen

I agree with others that players like, even prefer, rolling dice. But I know that my table would certainly try it, and you could always add an option/variant later in the rules that stated "if you don't like static, roll dX (similar to effort in ICRPG)

MrGunn
>>109041659

Tiny edits for clarity, see Chuck Thorin's post, he says some things more succinctly than I, which is why I quoted him. I also paraphrased Jim Havoc's post, "I like the missing model joke and thought it was funny. So you should probably lose it." too true Jim!

Patryk Antos
>>109044124

This is a modification of something I use in our game which uses dice pool. You deal more damage depending on the degree of success. I don't double or triple the damage but use a damage matrix. Each degree of success has its coresponding damage code. Helps with making different weapons feel different.

Jay
>>109037983

@ A Name Apart, a great idea. As it turns out Dungeon Coach has videos outlining his new game and it does eliminate damage rolls and bases damage on how well the hit roll was. I don't want my players doing math so I go with Strikes and dice pools taking the highest roll. EZD6, L5R, and similar games with some home brew. Combat moves much faster and immersion is less likely to break. Even simple math will break immersion especially for younger players.

Chuck Thorin
>>109057010

No the pool doesn't contract as the baddie takes damage. A tough opponent might only have 3 or 4 dice. Easy blast the party for damage. Summon creatures, Mitigate damage (like DB Dice). Impose Penalties. Whatever fits the theme of the bad guy and the situation. Whether targets get a Save or not depends on what you do. Just like a lot of the Deathbringer philosophy, you need familiarity with existing spells and do something fair during the encounter.

Masterhit

The damage dice idea is something I'd definitely ask my players about. We have played Cairn, which eschews hit rolls - which I think is even more controversial than normalizing damage rolls. Cairn also uses hit protection instead of hit points - which I personally like because the idea of HP being anything resembling life force seems a bit wrong to me, especially if you can just operate perfectly well at 1 hit point (same as full). The only little thing that jumps out at me is the possibility of hits being glancing or critical, but I think that can be covered with luck/fate/fudge/etc. type systems. There is certainly some excitement in a huge roll. But if you have a veritable wad of 'resource dice' to apply to a vital roll, that is pretty damned exciting to me. I am a pretty avid tabletop gamer, especially skirmish and miniatures games, and rolling an absurd handful of dice is just flat-out fun sometimes when you get that perfect setup with your glass cannon supported by your leaders or terrain or whatever the case may be. I come from mostly BX and AD&D, which we played absolutely incorrectly as kids, we had a BLAST though! It's all about your audience. Now we play various systems and we have fun and eat snacks and talk about life... it's all good. As to the joke, it's also largely about knowing your audience. I think it's ridiculous to worry about pearl-clutchers and nannies, but in the same breath, you are building a business. It may seem, looking back, that such things were exploitative, but that takes away the agency of those involved. Retconning their decisions as to how to earn a living as if they were exploited. It's certainly unnecessary but on brand with Death Bringer and his era of fantasy art/etc.

jnlsn family

Keep the joke! It was refreshing.

Jay

PDM, I enjoy the new ideas you present and that you are receptive to constructive feedback. That stated, here are my thoughts and some of my own aspirations when it comes to this subject. 1 – Eliminate as many steps as possible in game mechanics to not break immersion. 2 – Eliminate as much mathematics as possible to not break Immersion. 3 - Keep all the numbers involved small and quick to calculate. 4 – Only roll dice when necessary or consequences are likely. 5 – Always rulings over rules CHALLENGES - Game mechanics. - There seems to be a bit more math here than I would like such as calculating average damage by each Monster Type, Character Class, Attributes, Weapon Types, Fudge Dice and/or Deathbringer Dice. POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS – 1 - Eliminate some of the math by implementing strikes rather than using average damage. They achieve very similar results without all the average damage and modifier calculations. 2 – Use Advantage / Disadvantage using the D20’s with multiple dice as needed. A fighter with navigation skills (TRAINING + 1D20), on a good sailing ship (GREAT EQUIPMENT + 1D20), with a highly experienced crew (SKILLED ASSISTANCE + 1D20) might roll a total of 4D20 and take the highest roll when navigating a heavy storm at sea whatever TN the DM decides. No math just takes the highest roll. Each Advantage or Disadvantage cancels one of the other. 3 – Combat – A roll of 20 equals two Strikes and another roll the D20. A roll above the same TN on the second roll grants a 3rd Strike. If a 20 is rolled again that would mean 4 strikes and another roll. So the process continues. 4 – Some skills used under favorable conditions may not need any dice roll. Such as a Ranger tracking prey or a thief picking a type of lock, he has experience with. It’s just a matter of time, not dice rolls. Especially if it advances the story. Use advantage/disadvantage above for times it might be interesting or necessary. 5 – Deathbringer Dice – Are a pool of D20’s for Re-Rolls. I don’t really have the time I used to have to put into this but hope some of this makes sense. Anyway, I enjoy your thoughts and it keeps me inspired to come up with ideas on my own even if they aren’t really flushed out yet. Happy gaming Everyone!

Jay
>>109057010

Was the dice pool part of the FAST system Art of the Genre made? I've still got some reading to do on that one. Really like this idea.

Firstspear

Great as always. I'm fully bought into the 'narrative' style of play - I had my fill of min max sessions and players. As far as set damage for weapons/PCs - I agree, but then again, I always liked that about WFRP (which has lower wounds etc.). Your proposed mechanic flattens out the avg curve and speeds play. If you want to add more chances to create 'heroic' outcomes, you could create exploding (reroll on max roll) dice on the Deathbringer dice, but that may make them too powerful. It depends on your theme for the game/campaign.

Chuck Thorin
>>109057010

No. It was one of their adventure modules. If memory serves correct they used for an enemy shaman.

Jay
>>109041659

Insightful as always MrGunn. Your post seems to raise so many other questions and is good food for thought. The main one coming to mind is the DM a story teller (Railroad Conductor) or are we playing a Sandbox (Player Driven Story). Reminds me of the Dungeon Craft video "The Third Secret Every DM Needs to Know" which essentially is be like water "Bruce Lee Quote". The DM should adapt to player decisions. In my opinion that means the game is player driven and may avoid the carefully planned outline of events the DM had prepared. Doh!

Jay
>>109057010

Cool and thanks for the info. I'm going to see if I can find it. I like the idea and might be able to adapt it to my game.

Graham Kane

I'm really torn between Deathbringer Dice and Scotty's Luck Dice. They are both such fun mechanics. In my Deathbringer campaign the players love the DB dice. A couple of the players are experienced in 5E and love how flexible they are compared to feats. However I think Luck Dice are excellent for younger players as it takes the sting out of bad rolls and can stave off "tantrums" at the table. I'd also keep the joke BTW!

Jay

PDM, one last comment. I believe the person on Fakebook has a point regarding monsters doing average damage while player characters do not. My understanding of dice probabilities in accordance with the Khan Academy and the AI on my web browser both lead me to believe there may be a discrepancy or perhaps misunderstanding regarding damage from Individual dice rolls and the way they create an average. You stated, “The more you roll the dice, the more you get the average”. This is in itself true as dice rolls tend to pull toward the average the more they are rolled. However, in TTRPG’s it would be more accurately stated “The average dice result is the sum of all results divided by the number of rolls.” Since it is unlikely, we would make more than a few rolls for damage against a single opponent, a clear average on any given round would be difficult to predict and less likely to be half the full damage. Therefore, results will vary for the players while the monsters are always doing average damage consistently. So, it isn’t unreasonable to assume that if players are only rolling for damage a few times during combat it is also possible they could be doing worse than the monsters. Rolling a specific number of dice all at once creates a clear bell curve and provides distinct variation in probability for the average and each standard deviation yet individual die rolls with variation in the number of times the die is rolled will create even greater variance in the average. So, if a goblin is doing 5 damage each hit, and players are rolling poorly on damage rolls the goblin may wipe out a character in only 3 rolls where a player might need 5 or 6 rolls. The goblin will not do less than the average, yet the character might. So, an average damage for both monster and character would make a more stable system in my opinion and why I prefer strikes to mathematical calculations and modifiers if any of this makes sense.

MrGunn
>>109071228

@Will Morgan Interesting you mention Cairn, I just downloaded it this weekend, I think someone from this weekend's Dungeon Masterpiece Live Stream with Baron De Rop mentioned it to me in reference to the Glog magic system. Was that you who mentioned Cairn to me, I cannot remember? Either way Cairn looks really cool. BTW do you know what effect Fatigue has on game play, I cannot figure that part out, I would be very grateful if someone explained it to me.

MrGunn
>>109072192

@Jay Great missive! Although, to paraphrase Edna from the Incredibles: No SKILLS! Class abilities only. I will re-read this when my brain starts functioning again and provide more insights.

MrGunn

@Jay Now this, this is how you make an argument!!!! Well articulated points Jay, loved this response, I did not want to tackle this, I am not a maths person. I am glad you handled it, and did such a fine job.

Tuska

I always use D6s to replace feat/skills. Flat damage is also a thing at our table. The FATE dice add on you mentioned is something I will start using. As for the joke. I loved it. Keep things light and fun.

Jay
>>109085895

Thanks. Not sure if I did a good job capturing what I mean't to say. I bit distracted today. Putting a bit more thought into it I suppose the DM could leave it up to the player each round. Do you want to gamble on a damage roll or take the average. Maybe I should flush out my thoughts a bit more as I seem to post on here more as a sounding board these days. Never-the-less, thanks for the kind words and have a great day.

Masterhit
>>109071228

We haven't played a lot of sessions, but the gist from what I recall is that conditions like fatigue take up inventory slots. Essentially you only can carry a very limited number of things, so filling item slots can really impede you. The same goes for spells in Cairn, you have to have a spellbook for each spell, and they take up item slots. Therefore you may not want to carry superfluous items, weapons, or wear bulky armor etc. I believe this system is refined further in Mausritter, which I haven't played but do own. Mausritter, Cairn, and a handful of other stripped-down systems are built off of Into the Odd and Knave. I intend to adopt some of the ideas from Mausritter, Knave, Cairn, EZD6, Deathbringer, DCC, 5e Harcore Mode into our home rules for the various things we try and see what sticks for us. I generally find vanilla 5e to be somewhat underwhelming when you stick to the base rules and don't use optional or homebrewed rules. I still have fun because we make the game fun because of our natures, but the game occasionally reminds me of rough edges I'd like to sand down (or smooth edges I'd like to scuff up lol).

MrGunn
>>109085895

@Jay Sameses, distracted, we had lay offs and I got a new boss. Still employed, but don't like where things are headed.

Jay
>>109085895

Ouch. Hang in there bud. Things are getting crazy in clown world.

Jay
>>109086098

@ Tuska, I also like the idea of flat damage only with a possibility of doing more on a critical or exploding die depending on the game I'm playing. That being stated, I'm curious. What do you use for flat damage? The average or something else? I enjoy new perspectives.

bynw

As a long time gamer of many RPGs. Including Fudge which Fate is an offshoot of btw. I am well familiar with Fudge/Fate dice. As for static damage. I'm all for it. Combat is one of the things in most RPGs that slow it down all the time. There are a number of games out there that already use static damage. Some created by previous WoTC designers (Cypher System by Monte Cook.)

Brent Norton

This is why I love this channel. So How did a Rat ogre die to a dead fish. Deathbringer dice. The players pooled all their deathbringer dice together and rolled a Yahtzee and did 36 points of damage in one blow. Rat ogre opened the door to the room of pools and with a great roar announced his presence. The players won initiative. The thief grabbed a dead fish from the pool and threw it at the rat ogre and hit it after that all the players pushed in all of their Deathbringer Dice. Had to describe when the rat ogre was closing his mouth the fish slipped through it’s teeth and logged in it’s throat. Death by fish. Epic and funny.

Lee Caddick

Loved the video, I'd advise against the joke if you want the younger generation to identify with you, it felt like it belongs in the past to me. I keep trying to streamline my games because the type of combat you describe is what I want - fast, punchy, stay on your toes - my players are so resistant to it though, I think I need to just accept that they like rolling dice and doing maths as a component of being an epic hero.

Jay
>>109072192

Right. I hear ya. You don't want a list on skills. This works for any play style. What I mean is if the player with a Fighter says he grew up in a sailing or fishing port the GM could just say he has Sailing/Navigation experience rather than write it down. Then just give him advantage to rolls for having it and additional advantage for a good crew, good ship, ect. No need for tracking long lists or stats. Yet I'm always open to suggestions that might offer a better solution.

jnlsn family
>>109071540

Nice, common ground! Maybe if I see you at a con we can have a Yuenling together Jay.

jnlsn family
>>109118600

That would have to be one heckuva big fish to choke a rat ogre. How big was it anyway?

jnlsn family
>>109121787

I don't know Lee, since '21 I've been running an all boys group age 11-15 every Sunday for three hours, even on holidays. After three hundred plus hours I have learned that generation Alpha loves the thrill of being inappropriate. They have had politics foisted on them and their reaction is a sophisticated mockery of people who hold views that restrict freedom of speech. They all loved the joke.

Erwan Kergall

Hello from France. I'd like to make a little contribution to this thread on skills and damage. My favorite house rule : Gambling with advantage (or : "How to push the advantage/disadvantage dice mechanic further than anyone has ever dared before !) TLDR : When performing any ACTIVE check die roll that gets followed by a result dice roll (damage, effect, severity of fumble, …) the player may choose to do one of 2 things : a) roll with disadvantage, and get advantage on the result roll (other options : do double damage or maximum damage); b) roll with advantage, but pay for it by getting disadvantage on the result roll (other options : do half damage or minimal damage). This can come in addition to any advantage or disadvantage the player may already have on that check role. The story : A long time ago, in a land far far away… It was late 80’s early 90’s and me and my high school buddies we played one of the Great Old Ones of French RPGs, "Empire Galactique" (pronounce "ahm-PEER gah-lak-TEEK") which was a very Asimovian hard-SF game and, like most RPGs then, was rather crunchy. The game was quite innovative for its time, having a unified rolling mechanic (roll a number of d6 and attempt to roll under the sum of your characteristic and a skill bonus – abilities ranging from 2 to 12 and skills from +0 to +6 – difficulty measured in number of dice rolled, 1 to 5). Where the game got super crunchy was in the existence of “secondary characteristic” beyond the 6 primary ones (STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIL, CHA) and a myriad of mathematical formulas to calculate the effects of all possible actions based on how the dice had rolled. It was all super-complicated and I never really got how the damage we dealt in combat related to how we rolled beyond “roll as high as you can, but not beyond your characteristic+skill”, and the fact that the more dice we rolled the more damage we dealt. Nevertheless, we had a GM who was a genuine math wiz (his father actually did research in mathematics !) and he made it all run super-fast (he had pre-compiled 5 different result look-up tables, that covered all the possible dice rolls). On the other side, the game had no initiative system beyond “every player tells the GM what they intend to do this turn and then the GM decides in which order actions happen” ! One of the more technical aspects of the system was that it allowed the players to modify the difficulty of a roll depending on the quality of the desired result (want to make somtehing better looking, more durable, to make an attack more precise, to strike faster, to hit harder, to hit vital points ... or on the other hand to make something more on the cheap, less durable, perform an action more vaguely, not caring if a hit is less precise or more random, …) This resulted in more lookup tables for the GM, but for the players it meant just one thing : if your difficulty roll during combat for example was 4d6 (challenging), the GM would ask you “do you roll 3, 4 or 5 dice ?” Rolling 4D would then be the standard option, for those who didn’t want to think too hard about risk and reward. Rolling 3D meant taking the easy route, taking less risk, but knowing if you hit, the damage would be smaller. Rolling 5D meant you were taking more risk of failure in exchange for dealing greater damage if you hit. The game designer had, maybe inadvertently, stumbled on a way to make combat more exciting for players by always giving them a choice : “do you want to play it straight, do you want to go low-risk/low-reward, do you want to go high-risk/high-reward ?”. It had turned rolling the dice into strategic gambling. Not that it was just hedging your dice-rolls. There was always a good way to translate that into something narratively significant : example 1 : GM : “The last killer bot is hovering over you. It rotates on itself to aim its last undamaged blaster towards your craft’s engine. Hitting it is difficulty 3D. How do you roll ?” Player : _“I don’t care for damage, I just want to keep it from making that shot. I shoot to disorient : I roll 2D only !” example 2 : GM : “The creature is humanoid, hairy and huge. It rushes you and wrestles you to the ground.” Player : “I’ve got to knock it out quick ! I try to strike it in the head with my vibro-knuckle.” GM : “You’re under its enormous and strangely smelly weight, it’s going to be hard to get a clean hit : difficulty 4D. Roll 3D, 4D or 5D ?” Player : “I’m DEX 10 and +5 in hand-to-hand combat. I aim for what I guess must be the vital spots in the head, I go for max damage : I roll 5D!” With the distance of time, all that I really remembered of the system in “Empire Galactique” was that choice of simply rolling the dice, or rolling 1 less or 1 more, and the excitement of playing it safe or going for bust in the urgency of combat scenes. (I had to find a digital copy of the 1987 rule-book and look up the system to be able to actually remember how it all worked in order to write all those paragraphs above.) Strangely enough, I’d never really found a way replicate that effect in other systems I played. Until recently… The thing is, I’d never played AD&D in the old days and only this year, with my boys getting interested in D&D, did I look up 5e and how the D20 system works. So there I am, reading the rule about advantage and disadvantage, and I find it a cool idea. Then I subscribe to Dungeoncraft, and there’s this video where PDM encourages us to use cinematic advantage, and to stack up advantages and disadvantages. Good stuff ! And then I get the idea to gambling with advantage in a way that works similarly to how we gambled with difficulty dice in “Empire Galactique”. So here is how it works : When performing any ACTIVE check die roll that gets followed by a result dice roll (damage, effect, severity of fumble, …) the player may choose to do one of 2 things : a) roll with disadvantage, and get advantage on the result roll; b) roll with advantage, but pay for it by getting disadvantage on the result roll. This can come in addition to any advantage or disadvantage the player may already have on that check role. The devil is in the details : - This whole system presupposes that it’s OK in your rules to stack advantages and/or disadvantages; - It’s not only for fighting. It works well with all checks that are followed by an effect roll (ICRPG style); - players might be tempted to roll at a double advantage or double disadvantage. Allow that, but remind them that the effect roll (or damage roll) will then be done at double disadvantage. Also, the probability of critical failures multiplies exponentially when rolling at multiple disadvantage ! - it might look like any sane player would only ever take advantage, and not disadvantage. But they will quickly realize that there is a price to pay : rolling for damage at a disadvantage is a big penalty ! - if your rules work with fixed damage, replace the disadvantage on the damage roll by doing half-average damage (and minimum damage in case the player check-rolled at double advantage); - similarly, you can replace rolling for effect/damage with advantage by doing 1.5x average damage (and maximum damage in case of a double disadvantage check-roll); - a player that already has advantage for an in-game reason (prone opponent, attacking from behind, …) can choose to take a disadvantage for superior damage. Thus the check roll becomes a normal roll, but they get advantage on the damage roll. I call this "Burning your advantage"; - conversely, a player who’s at a disadvantage (player partially blinded, enemy partially covered, …) can compensate by taking advantage in exchange for less damage. The check roll becomes a normal roll and damage is rolled at a disadvantage. I don’t have a fun name for that, but it’s really a form of desperation tactics; - similarly, if another player is helping you perform an action, thereby granting you advantage on the roll, you may choose to Burn your advantage (for extra damage, bigger effect, etc.) - If you use individual initiative in combat, players can choose to take advantage/disadvantage on their initiative roll. Their attack roll then will be done at a disadvantage and the damage roll will be a normal one. This is a good way of simulating "Rushing the opponent". - the reverse of this, taking disadvantage on the initiative roll in exchange for advantage on the attack roll, I call "Waiting for an opening". (BTW, rolling a 1 on your initiative roll should be a critical failure and result in your character not finding any opening and losing their turn to attack.)

Lee Caddick
>>109121787

I suppose I was referring to a slightly older 'younger' group XD. My little sister is coming up to 30 now and she would definitely have a problem with it, but then she has lots of friends with pretentious names and would happily get all her coffee from Starbucks whilst being on the phone constantly for 'work' without seeming to accomplish anything at all.

Erwan Kergall
>>109166731

Glad you like it :) I think I'll share it on the Facebook Group, if that's OK with you.

MrGunn
>>109153827

@Erwan Kergall MrGunn approves of very long posts! 😂😎

Gridlock350 Studios

Flat damage is great! I’ve played it in D&D and fell in love with it so much that when my game studio made Realms of Elghrune we made it with flat damage as well. The games go sooooo much faster & there’s more engaging combat

SonOfSofaman

A thoughtful, and thought-provoking, analysis. As always. I never thought about the character sheet as a relic from the war game origins which are simulations in which opponents are pitted against one another. RPGs are more unlike war games than they are alike. I think this fact might be the source of a nagging discontinuity I've long felt about RPGs. Lots to think about, not the least of which is "protagonists protag".

MrGunn
>>109057832

@DungeonCraft Agree to Agree, you don't learn anything new if you only seek reinforcement for your own point of view.

MrGunn
>>109072192

You always great insights; as promised, here are my responses to your ideas: 1 – Eliminate as many steps as possible in game mechanics to not break immersion. --Only so far as tactical nuance and game flavor make the game unrecognizable. 2 – Eliminate as much mathematics as possible to not break Immersion. --Repeating, only so far as tactical nuance and game flavor make the game unrecognizable. 3 - Keep all the numbers involved small and quick to calculate. --Generally agree. 4 – Only roll dice when necessary or consequences are likely. --Agree 5 – Always rulings over rules. --Violent agreement! :D 1 - Eliminate some of the math by implementing strikes rather than using average damage. They achieve very similar results without all the average damage and modifier calculations. --Strikes is a good approach only if you keep tactical flavor by having smaller weapons like, daggers and clubs do a half strike: standard weapons like, broad swords, maces, arrows, short swords do one strike; larger weapons, like bastard swords wielded two handed, two handed swords, windlass crossbows do 1.5 strikes etc. 2 – Use Advantage / Disadvantage using the D20’s with multiple dice as needed. A fighter with navigation skills (TRAINING + 1D20), on a good sailing ship (GREAT EQUIPMENT + 1D20), with a highly experienced crew (SKILLED ASSISTANCE + 1D20) might roll a total of 4D20 and take the highest roll when navigating a heavy storm at sea whatever TN the DM decides. No math just takes the highest roll. Each Advantage or Disadvantage cancels one of the other. --If rolling more than two D20s, why not just replace them with FUDGE dice, less math. Also, I think this system works well if the PCs background is important to game play. 3 – Combat – A roll of 20 equals two Strikes and another roll the D20. A roll above the same TN on the second roll grants a 3rd Strike. If a 20 is rolled again that would mean 4 strikes and another roll. So the process continues. --As my response to number one but a crit nets double or triple strikes. 4 – Some skills used under favorable conditions may not need any dice roll. Such as a Ranger tracking prey or a thief picking a type of lock, he has experience with. It’s just a matter of time, not dice rolls. Especially if it advances the story. Use advantage/disadvantage above for times it might be interesting or necessary. --I thought this was always true, I think there are even rules for this in 5e. No need to roll for secret doors, you just declare you are searching the PCs find it. 5 – Deathbringer Dice – Are a pool of D20’s for Re-Rolls. --Just allow the player the following options, add the DB bonus to the D20, re-roll their D20, or before rolling use a DB die to roll with advantage or overcome a disadvantaged state. I hope my responses were useful.

MrGunn
>>109074186

@DungeonCraft Bread without salt is bland, to quote the Rabbi: "if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out."

Jay
>>109072192

Wow! Quite an interesting response. I'll try to look over it again later. All I can say is ok. I'm not trying to change minds here just give an opinion not so much an argument. So again, go with what works for you and happy gaming.

MrGunn
>>109072192

@Jay Perhaps we are misunderstanding one another. I am not trying to argue per se, I just view our discourse as a robust exchange of ideas. No opinions are wrong, just talking here.

Timothy Leeds

I love this mechanics especially when my sons friends come over to play D&D with us. It goes a lot quicker. It’s a lot more fulfilling and fun for all of us.

Doug Bush

Loved the video and the joke! ;)

Matthew Crismali

Love the video! and I recommend against using the joke.

Darrin

Looking forward to the next edition of Deathbringer. The content of this channel is amazing. Keep up the great work. From a Great British fan.

Tuska
>>109086098

I use values of 2,4,6,8,10,12. Twelve being the max. I have a similar value table for very large/poorly made/exceptional/magic/vehical sized weapons ect. However in most of our games the 2-12 is the norm for most situations.