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Hey everyone, nothing pressing to report, but I realized nothing was stopping me from just letting you know what's got production hung up for the moment, and hell, maybe someone will have some input on it. I seem to just keep stumbling into bad subject after bad subject, at least in terms of nothing being straightforward

Way back in December I was working on a script about backplane-based PCs when I bogged down for... Honestly, reasons I can hardly even remember at this point. Oh right, it's because it turned out the chassis I decided to pull the trigger on and spend 300 bucks for ended up having a bizarre PICMG board inside - one made on a little used and quickly forgotten revision of the standard that incidentally does not fit 99% of the SBCs out there. SBCs are not easy to come by, and I've bought two on eBay that haven't ended up working. I have all of... one, I think, that works in this board, and I've determined that even if I tried buying others, they wouldn't fit either.

My only real option is to desolder and replace one of the PCI slots on the backplane, which is... not appealing, and may destroy the board, leaving me with nothing. It doesn't help that the whole subject is divided into "dully straightforward" and "a big mess of barely-related gadget-anecdotes" that I had not figured out how to turn into a narrative by the time this problem became apparent. So I had to shelve that until I figure it out.

While licking my wounds on that one, I received the 24 frame PCs I wrote about a couple posts back, and decided to pivot to that topic, which was also not easy. First I had to rebuild one of the machines completely because the motherboard was dead; then I had to do a whole bunch of examination and experimentation with the data on the hard drives; then I had to obtain a monitor that supported the weird mode it outputs.

In the middle of this process, I realize that the guy who built these things has a website and an email address. I get in touch, expecting no reply or "quit bothering me kid" or maybe even "The contents of those drives is the property of such and such studio, cease and desist and destroy them immediately." Instead he replies tersely and just says, yep, you found me.

Not sure what to do with that, I reply as politely as I can, but include a list of questions - carefully chosen to, let's be frank, massage his ego as an engineer. If you do a project and 30 years later some kid who wasn't even born when you started your career starts pestering you with questions, you're going to be a lot more inclined to answer if he acknowledges that what you did is kind of cool and impressive, which it is, so this wasn't a problem.

Couple days go by. No reply. Finally I email him back and basically say, "hey man, I understand if you're busy or just don't feel like answering any of this, no problem at all, just let me know if you can or can't." Couple days later he replies and says he might get back to me, if and when he feels like it. He's not being rude, he just very obviously does not prioritize my needs, which is perfectly reasonable, the guy being retired and me being a rando.

But where's this leave me? In a lurch. This is the kind of video that I would have filled with pure speculation 5 years ago, and paid the price - I'd have gotten called out on in the comments by people who knew better, and probably spread some misinformation. So here, I have the opportunity to do exactly the right thing and I take it - and it leaves me in an interminable holding pattern. Worse, even if the guy replies someday, I don't think I would get very much out of it. The couple answers he gave me already are... Vague, to put it mildly.

But he IS out there, so what do I do? I can't say I couldn't reach him, that's a lie. I can't just ignore the fact that the guy is findable because then I'll put out the video and 150 people will assume I never thought to try getting in touch, and pester him with even more questions. So I absolutely have to acknowledge that I got in touch with him, but somehow brush off the fact that I got no information from that exchange without being insulting.

So I was paralyzed, totally unable to take another step on the script because anything I wrote might end up having to get removed if he ever got back to me. Finally yesterday Daria talks me into throwing my caution to the wind, putting a very precisely worded "Don't worry about it" in the script (which pretty much solved the problem as far as I'm concerned,) and then I put in four or five hours of work, feeling very productive... until I ran into a new and catastrophic problem.

The whole time I've been thinking about these things, it was under the belief that you cannot put a CRT in front of a standard 24 FPS movie camera and get a clean picture unless the CRT is running at a multiple of 24 Hz (in this case, 48hz, though 120 will also work.) I swear I have heard this assertion in various places; obviously it's why these machines were modified the way they are; I am also aware that there are lots of 48hz-modified TVs out there; and I know the Mac Plus in Star Trek IV was modified to do the same thing (shout out to Ron's Computer Videos for covering that topic, it was pretty damn cool and I will be citing that video in mine w/ his permission.) So this is a common practice, yet I still found myself thinking that it couldn't be the sole, or even typical answer.

I started flipping through a bunch of movies - Independence Day, Hackers and Blade to name a few - and looking at just how many TVs and computer monitors are in every scene. They're all over the place, sometimes simply as minor background elements, and I just can't believe every single one of them was modified for 48hz and was being driven by a 48hz computer or VCR. It'd cost an unholy fortune even by hollywood standards - and what about low-budget productions? I've seen really cheaply filmed movies that still had working CRTs. There HAS to be another explanation.

So finally I do what I should have done in the first place and just Google "how to shoot CRT on 24 FPS" and sure enough, there's people on a filmmaking forum talking about how to adjust the Panasonic DVX100 (lol) to do it. That's a camcorder but hey, the advice turns out to be the same - you just set the shutter angle to 144°, which (in film terms) means 1/60th of a second, long enough to cover a full screen refresh on a standard NTSC CRT.

Now I knew this, logically - 1/60th is a subset of 1/24th, so obviously it has to be possible to adjust a standard movie camera to shoot at that speed. But why, then, would you bother hacking together 48hz displays at all?

Obviously at that point I'm kinda back to the drawing board, I have to rewrite the whole script to remove the basic, flawed assumptions I started with. But replace them with what? What is the ultimate answer here? I have some theories - but I don't have anywhere to go to find someone who can put it all together, which is frustrating. For what it's worth, here are those theories:

First, it seems that not all film cameras had adjustable shutters. Older and low-end models appear to have typically been locked at 180°, which is exactly 1/48th of a second. It is thus impossible to film a 59.94hz (or even 50hz) tube on such a machine and get a clean result. As far as I can tell there were a LOT of cameras like this, so 48hz displays are the only solution that would result in a clean picture. Terrific.

But then, why would a big-budget, late-era production like Star Trek IV care? They absolutely had access to adjustable-shutter cameras, even if they only used them for the 20-second sequence containing the Mac.

Okay so, second reason: It sucks to be stuck at 144°. What if you don't like the motion characteristics that gets you, or - for some reason - you just can't get the exposure you need that way? Well, that's something, but it feels weak to me, especially for the exact shot we're talking about, which is a locked-off closeup without a ton of motion and where they could have just lowered the lights to get the exposure they needed.

Then there's the sync issue: sure, you can set your shutter to a 1/60th interval, but each shot begins at the top of a 1/24th cadence, and that's unavoidable. You can't genlock a 59.94hz TV to a 24hz pulse, I don't think, you'd just be asking for too much latitude, the set would be constantly wobbling as it was violently resynced. This is a total guess, since I have no way to test it or anyone to ask, but it seems valid. The problem is that with that level of confidence it's just... really really hard to say anything. Any way I phrase it, it comes off as the XKCD joke about "up to 25% or more"; basically I'd be saying nothing of substance, yet talking anyway. I hate that.

Worse: in a lot of cases it wouldn't matter. Sure, the screen might not technically be synced to the camera, but you're still going to get what looks like a full-screen image. It'll have a split in the middle, which will jump all over the place in every frame, but since the edges of the split touch, it won't be obvious.

Now, to be fair, this sucks for high-motion content - if you're filming a TV with full-motion video on it, like a camera feed, you're going to see tearing artifacts. But for, say, the scene in Star Trek IV that consists of no more than 40 distinct still-frames across 20 seconds, would that really have mattered? It's a brief sequence with heavy comical overtones that - in practice - doesn't come close to looking realistic anyway, and is also being shown to an audience that's overwhelmingly never used a computer, let alone one with a GUI. Would a little bit of tearing really matter?

Well... I mean, yes, in the sense that some directors might look at that and go "no, that's just not the right way to do it, we need to do better," - but I feel like a lot would just shrug at it. Who cares? The audience won't. So I'd guess in practice 48hz displays were only used for really important closeups, or by picky directors and DPs... but is that really true? I don't know and I have no way to find out. I could go track down someone and ask, but I can't survey the whole industry circa the mid 80s or 90s, so what kind of firm answers can I give? None, really. I could even trying reading the SMPTE journals or trying to find marketing ephemera but all it's going to say is, "if you care about this, here is how to solve it." It's not going to tell me who cared and why.

For what it's worth, I did some experiments and confirmed at least some of the ground truths. Using my Blackmagic camera, and a monitor running at 60 Hz, I can get it to look right at 144°, but almost any other setting produces awful flicker or black/bright bars. Some values above 180° are usable-ish, but my understanding is that most film cameras top out at 180° for some reason? Don't really understand that and have no idea how to begin investigating it but there it is.

With the monitor at 48hz however, I can get perfect sync from about 75° to 180° - and at various angles above that, up to almost 360°, which would have been impossible (afaik) on a film camera but is worth mentioning anyway. At any angle other than 180° I get a black bar artifact of one size or another, but I can fix that by adjusting the phase of the camera (in practice: cycling it out of 24fps mode and back repeatedly, lol.)

The ideal solution would be to genlock the PC monitor to the camera, but none of my cameras can output a sync signal - and apparently real movie cameras often had shutter phase adjustments, even back in the day, that would have solved this for most cases. Like, it was fiddly, but sometimes filmmaking is; and it wouldn't have worked in scenes with multiple CRTs in shot at once, but you could solve that by just genlocking all the tubes to some common reference, then phasing the camera to match it.

But what do I do with any of this? I can give speculation, but I can't give answers, and I really don't know how to fix that. And to be frank, this is what my last... I don't know. 15 productions have been like? Total collapse of confidence in any of my conclusions after weeks or months of effort. This just seems to be what my job is nowadays. Nothing's easy, nothings certain - I'm never sure if I actually have the answers or I'm just making crap up.

The stress is absurd. I never know if I'm going to get dogpiled (rightfully) for getting things wrong, I never know if I could have changed my whole understanding of the thing if I had just sent one email or DM or waited another two days. Every time something goes wrong like this, I start thinking about how long it's been since my last video and how much longer it's going to be now. At this point it's been what, two months, and I have no idea when I'll have another video out.

I realize this is all my fault - my whole product, as far as I'm concerned, is covering stuff that nobody else covers. That means the information about it just isn't readily available, or what is available is not clear cut, so every single project is going to be like this forever. I still love the job, I still don't want to do anything else, but man, there is just a certain unpleasant flavor to the feeling of never knowing if you're making the right decisions that gets to you eventually, especially when you keep getting knocked back to square one when it turns out you were wrong.

Anyway. Thanks for sticking around. If anyone has input on the realities of filming CRTs 40 years ago feel free to comment. Hopefully I'll have something soon.

Comments

Thermo [D G]

Nothing helpful, but film cameras typically top out at like 200° shutter angle because there has to be enough time for the film to be yanked up, and otherwise it would be impossible to film. The CD/Shutter Speed video has a good quick overview about it

Chas Becht

One approach narratively is instead of rewriting the whole thing, you present it as you did here as a late discovery. In act one of the script you go through the whole 'needs to be 48hz to match the shutter' story, then in act two of the script you say 'it turns out none of that is true, and here's the real reason'. That's actually a more entertaining journey as an audience. Of course that assumes that at some point you find the answer to present in act two. But 'wait a minute, wtf?' could also be a valid second act. Or you could do a multi-part story about the investigation. Maybe after the first part comes out, you'll get more leads from the teeming masses. I know you kind of use patreon for pre-publication per review of a sort and are pretty concerned with publishing falsehoods, but post-publication peer review is valuable as well. And you can add corrections to older videos, or just take them down and reupload with corrections. I think you've expressed a dislike for that approach in the past. I dunno, just spit ballin.

Tammy Makes Things

I don’t have any answers to the “how do you film a TV monitor successfully?” but another possibility that I’m sure some films used was to put a sheet of greenscreen material over the face of the monitor and then add in the screen contents in postproduction. It’s low tech and kludgy, and you have to be careful about angles, but sometimes the low-tech solution works.

cathoderaydude

Oh yeah, this one I managed to come around to on my own by looking at footage of a film camera shutter in operation for long enough - but then I found out arri sells 216° shutters for (at least) the SR3, so why is 180 so frequently the cutoff? I have no idea and I'm guessing I'm missing something.

t

I thought the idea behind 48hz and shooting at 24fps was that you’d also be playing 24fps content on the monitor. You’d get 2 complete sweeps of the beam and the be able to start exposing anywhere in the first and if you happened to drift a little you’d make it up in sweep 2

t

But I haven’t thought about this in a very long time and never paid to actually be behind the camera.

Thermo [D G]

It seems like there are some limits, but the biggest one is the frame advance mechanism. Getting the scary claw to move as fast as it would need to for more than 180° is challenging, and for a lot of productions it's just not worth it to go for the expense of one that can manage it.

Jakub Offierski

This is just my opinion but I think a video where you journey through these discoveries, musings and various trials is what would be interesting to watch. Yes it would also bring people out of the woodwork to state various opinions or their own but if I observed anything in watching YouTube for so many years is that there's always someone who'll give proper advice. And, you'll be safe in doing a part 2, part 3 of various topics as you go along. I understand you wanting to make a video that is informative and accurate, but there's a shared joy in stumbling along together. Edit: spelling.

Scott Kemp

I think it's entertaining just hearing about the effort you put into the subjects. You could make a whole video on this whole endeavor and turn it into a two-parter. The search for answers, and then a video after a bunch of people have given input in the first video. Either way, I read this post in your voice and it felt like listening to a video.

Alex Cruise

Maybe a third channel for vlog type stuff? Or a Patreon tier or discord where people can help with research? I'd appreciate hearing your voice even when you don't yet feel comfortable speaking with your usual authority. :)

Alex Cruise

There's also plenty of weird shit in software land!

Alex Cruise

Crossover with Connections Museum!

cathoderaydude

Appreciate the input - unfortunately these *are* all things I'd thought about and even tried before, because they seemed like good solutions, but I'll go ahead and list all the problems I've run into - sorry to send you 10,000 words, just figured I'd answer it all in one place for everyone to read, heh. First, telling a story by beginning with a *wrong* premise is a great narrative technique... in short videos, which I am apparently incapable of making. If someone says something wrong, 2 minutes into a 12 minute video, you'll sit through the rest to see what becomes of it - but who's gonna watch 70 minutes of content from a guy who's just flat-out wrong in the first ten? So when I try this I get a bunch of comments "correcting" me, and some of those people probably finish the video and find out what I'm getting at, but others probably go off and tell others I'm a clueless loser. I don't blame them, especially because you can't fix a falsehood after the fact on here, it's simply impossible. I could put out 20 videos with the right info, and five years later I'll still be getting comments correcting me. Deleting videos is out of the question - if 99% of it's correct and 1% isn't, losing a massive chunk of views and comments to fix that 1% is disastrous. The only solution is to just be right in the first place. Secondly: *you* folks care about my personal journey, but randos won't. People get *really irritated* when they click a video about a subject they're curious about from a youtuber they've never seen before, and find out there's a bunch of details about the production process - unless those details are inherently interesting, which this isn't. The fact that I was wrong for a while is a nothingburger unless you know who I am, so if I'm going to appeal to new viewers, I just have to skip to the part where I was right so I'm not wasting their time. To put it differently: Only my fans are interested in apologies and excuses; everyone else just wants to hear news they can use, and if I don't have that, they're going to move on, and rightfully so. On that point - while my videos may be long and meandering, they're pretty much all-killer-no-filler these days. I try to spend as little time as possible saying things that *aren't* new and usable information, because otherwise they get boring, or even *confusing*, really fast. Some of the stuff I made throughout the process of figuring this out is now really embarrassing to me as a result. The video about the MPEG4 camera is a great example - from my 2026 perspective I cannot comprehend what on earth I was thinking by trying to mash the MP-EG1 followup into that. It ruins the whole video as far as I'm concerned, both for newbies and fans. I can barely watch the thing now, not just because I'm embarrassed, but because I just can't maintain interest in the rapidly-shifting topic focus, so I'm sure it's far worse for newcomers. At this point I only want my videos to contain solid facts, and speculation *if* I'm convinced the facts can't be dug up. These rules are a pain in the ass to stick to, but it's seemed the safest set of bets over the last couple years. As for the notion of doing separate videos, I have several concerns that basically come down to "if i get 150k views on the first one, I'm gonna get 8k on the second, yet it'll still take me weeks to produce." Newcomers are never going to click on a sequel unless they've watched the first video; they're *still* not going to click unless the first one was REALLY exciting and left them with some REALLY burning questions; and even then, the second one isn't going to have a strong, driving narrative, it'll just be a pile of corrections, so it's going to be a huge letdown and a lot of people won't finish it. And speaking of tone issues - adding a bunch of hedging and "I don't knows" and "maybes" and asking for input from the audience, useful though it can be, is a momentum-killer. It basically tells viewers "this one isn't done. maybe he'll have the answers someday, but he doesn't right now - so why are you watching? come back when he knows what he's talking about." If I stick to what I'm sure of, then I sound confident, and that's what people are coming here for. Again, my fans might be interested in seeing me shrug and go "check back someday, idk lol" but I can't make videos for just my fans or I won't ever get any *new* fans. Maybe *some* of this is paranoia - but that's the youtube business, baby!!!! Some crap does well, some crap does poorly - why? All you can do is guess. Maybe only 5 people have ever abandoned one of my videos in disgust at my wrongness; I have no way to find out, so all I can do is play by the rules *I* want other channels to use, so here we are.

cathoderaydude

Ahhhh, makes sense, because anything after 180 requires the film to advance faster. I guess I was imagining that the film typically takes the whole 1/48th sec. to advance just because they had the time, but if that's just *as fast as it can comfortably move* before needing really precise components, that would make a lot of sense.

YM

As a recent Patreon member (but a long time watcher), your dedication and efforts like this is one of the big reasons I want to support you, even if videos aren’t as frequent as you might prefer. Like some of the other comments have said, I personally think this journey of research, discovery and the unknown would make great videos in themselves. Maybe even a new series for you: ‘CRD and the Mysteries of the Past’ (or something).

YM

But as you mentioned, you’re writing about stuff that there’s very little information out there about. Maybe making these videos about what you can’t find out about will allow the very few people in the world that actually do know the information to come out and then you can collate all that and then humanity can have the information saved as a new video that you put together. Love your work.

Sue Werner

I don't watch your videos to GET THE FINAL ANSWER ON STUFF. i watch your videos for the process of someone finding stuff out. i wish people didn't nitpick you to death. you're doing good stuff and i'm here for it.

thCRITICALThinker

I'm glad you are taking this so seriously, it shows a lot of character. That being said these are errors that can be fixed by acknowledging one has been made and taking the time to include the new information.

thCRITICALThinker

Damn this interface not accepting the return key on mobile.. anyway sounds like it's time for a little guy episode? (I don't have a minipc problem I swear)

cathoderaydude

A lot of the reason I haven't been making many of those is because I can't help but take them this seriously, so they're not any easier than the other stuff.

cathoderaydude

I totally get you, and I think most of my core fans are like that - but I can't just play to my core fans. I am being watched by a lot of people who don't know who I am, or only watch a video once in a while. I have to tailor my work to that audience as well, both so I continue to get *new* fans rather than stagnating, and so that people don't wander in, get a wrong idea, and wander out, not realizing they were "expected" to stick around while I corrected myself.

GG

Nene

There's a few more problems on top of it too. First that in most cases the shutter is actually a spinning disc, so that means in the simpler but more reliable cameras, the shutter angle adjustment is a physical thing that takes time for you to disassemble the camera enough to carry out. Then on top of that, because it's a physical rotating disc, there has to be both enough disc available to cover the extremes of both ends of the adjustment, so if you have enough to shorten the shutter angle to 90º whilst maintaining enough overlap to robustly attach the two parts together, then the shortest that each part of the disc could be is 135º for example. It also had to do this whilst spinning at high speed, and without slipping, and it also had to have a mirror on the front side of it to reflect light into the viewfinder and video assist pickup, so lengthening your shutter steals light from the viewfinder, when you might already be losing 30-50% of that to the video assist. All the complexity whilst still having to make sure that you're able to move the film in time without breaking the mechanics of the camera or tearing the film meant that they often just didn't try to make it adjustable, and changing the shutter angle meant swapping the butterfly to one with a different angle cut into it. There's a kinda neat video on Youtube showing a really neat shutter angle adjustment mech that Arri made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj3ZlFNvZzs and a complete guide of a newer but differently complex shutter angle mech https://youtu.be/a7SKpSRjQ4M?t=732 in section four about 12 minutes in if the timed link doesn't work for some reason.

cathoderaydude

Thank you so much for all this info! I figured there was more to it.

t3hbeowulf

I'm going to send you an email but I may have something that can help with your backplane / PICMG problem, if you want to find a story around them.

Nene

I added a little more in an edit, because I forgot that pushing enter posted the reply. I love these old cameras even if I never got a chance to use one "in anger" so please let me know if you have any more questions about it!

ChiraFox

Unsolved Mysteries series

John Hamblett

I completely agree. Just because you feel like you don't have enough information about a device does not make it less interesting. If anything it makes it more intriguing

cathoderaydude

The trouble is that that only works for a person who's willing to stick around and find out what those answers are. It asks a lot of new viewers to basically promise a second video - plus every time I do that, it never gets made, and I look like an ass.

Mark

even when it doesn't seem like it, everything is going to be ok

Ben Lamb

It certainly isn't a definitive "this is why you needed specially modded CRTs" but your mention of video assist reminds me that even in the later days of film cameras when directors did have a near real time view of the shot, you're still talking about something that is being recorded from the light that ISN'T hitting the film, because the video assist and the viewfinder only get the light from the shutter mirror, and the assist is a very much not broadcast quality source and maybe you're watching it afterwards being played back on a tape, degrading it further. The first time the director (or anybody else) is going to see what was actually shot is when the dailies come in, which are rush-printed at the end of the filming day and viewed the next. So if you mostly got a computer to sync up, or a tv, but not really, the first time anybody's going to know for sure is the next day!

cathoderaydude

I'd been thinking about that too - the main issue I see there is that, since the CRT has a perfect cadence, whatever you see on the viewfinder/assist can be trusted to be the same thing that happens when the film is exposed, it'll just be the next frame or field. if you're out of sync, it's gonna be *pretty* evident (big black bar) unless it's just baaaaarely out of phase at the top or bottom. But I guess that *is* bad enough, and also, why not just avoid the problem entirely? But I feel like it's something you'd be more likely to do for real "failure is not an option" type shots - if you have major action going on that can't be shot again, or a major dialogue scene that you don't want to waste on a retake that fails to recapture the magic, etc.

t3hbeowulf

Email sent. Hopefully it helps.

Logan Hartmann

As a fan I just want to see more of the interesting tech that never ends up in a video. Maybe quick Patreon demos or photo albums would help get some use out of them.

Samuli Suomi

I'm sure there have been many tricks to capture CRTs with cinema cameras over the years. I have no actual knowledge, but one that _should be_ totally valid in the PAL land comes to mind: run the film slightly faster at 25 fps. No one will notice (and in fact the TV and home releases of all 24 fps movies happened in 4% sped up 50i for tens of years).

seagull

have you considered making a free tier to your patreon so you can make posts like this where you solicit for information to a wider audience? or even using youtube community posts, although the visibility for those is fairly dogshit.

Wander

Hey man, I discovered you a few months ago and am just now finishing up on watching all your videos. I think most of your audience is reasonably content to wait a couple of months, when the result of that wait is a nice, long, high quality video. We all appreciate the in-depth research and high production quality that goes into your work. That being said, I think you might need to try and relax just a little bit and not be so hard on yourself for not knowing things. When your whole gig is covering obscure historical artefacts, the information just is going to be obscure every time. As long as you make sure to clearly indicate when something you're saying is speculation or when you've been unable to find a piece of information, which you always seem to do, then I don't think it's irresponsible to put the information you do have out there. Even if it's just that the artefact exists and what you think it does. As others have mentioned, talking about the steps you've taken to research the item, even the unsuccessful steps, is interesting in of itself and there's nothing stopping you from making follow-up videos when new information presents itself. Just creating a tangible record of an item's existence and potentially reminding people of it is valuable. If you restrict yourself to only reporting hard, proven facts about obscure tech oddities, I fear you may eventually stop being able to produce videos at all...

Dilloid

I fear you may be suffering from the spiral of needing every video to be better than your last, which is unsustainable. I beg of thee for thy health that you take a step back and realise no video can be absolutely perfect. As long as you preface the video or segment with a disclaimer that you weren't able to find concrete evidence, only speculation, you will already be covering the topic with more integrity than a bunch of journalists and youtubers out there. Further, you don't owe that guy anything. It is a simple fact that you were able to reach out but were unable to get any information from him. That's okay, he is probably busy and I don't necessarily think it reflects terribly on him. Keep his identity safe in the video and say that you are doing so to prevent people hassling him, this will be enough for your audience to understand I think. I miss your videos a lot, and I'm looking forward to more, even if its not an hour of precise facts. In fact, speculation is more interesting imo, otherwise you're just listing facts in chronological order. I truly hope you're well, don't overthink this!

PositiveDigital

Honestly the contents of this post would make a pretty solid video in and of themselves. You've got a lot here already, even if the final conclusion is "This technology provably existed, despite being pretty niche, but there are other techniques that seem to solve all the same problems as far as I can tell". You've mentioned elsewhere being concerned about only appealing to your "core fans", which is fair, but I suspect that even your more casual fans would find such a video interesting. Indeed, "this existed but I have no clue why" is pretty inherently interesting. It leaves room for a follow-up if you do ever stumble onto the "why", but in the meantime you can cover a pretty great distance just going over the "what" of it (direction of the sync signal, sine versus square waves, etc. etc.) and then leave open the mystery of what the motivation was. It just might be a 20 minute video instead of a 45 minute video, is all. And I certainly have no objection to that. EDIT: Actually, isn't this sort of how a lot of your best videos are anyway? "Here's a product from decades ago that none of you remember because it frankly it didn't actually need to exist. Here's the cool engineering that went into it and some explanation of why it was redundant/unhelpful/not actually fulfilling a market need." I'm thinking of the QuickStart series especially, but there's plenty of other examples in your catalog.

Sean Fuhrmann

How much deep thought you put into all of this is why you have the fan base you do. Love you work CRD!

James

Hope this doesn't come off as flippant, but have you considered just starting a "CRD Unsolved Mysteries" series? Make a video of what you have - hard facts, speculation, and things you know you don't know - and do that for any topic you feel you've hit a real dead end with. Maybe a video gets the right attention and someone somewhere has the specific information you're lacking and you can make a followup "Unsolved Mystery: Solved" video that's more a summary of the previous video and an addition of whatever new information you got. Then again, maybe the mystery doesn't get solved because there just isn't enough information to make a solid conclusion anymore or that info just doesn't exist in paces even your audience can find, but your video might help someone else some day solve the mystery or inspire people to learn about weird forgotten tech or archive modern tech that might some day be considered weird and forgotten.

cathoderaydude

The problem is that it's everything now. I can't remember the last time I had a video where I had enough of the answers to feel truly confident - I guess the linear editing one, maybe? But I do have LOTS of information that other people don't know, and I want to share that, there are just big gaps in the middle which are impossible to either step over *or* fill in. It's like trying to review a car where you only have the dash and the trunk - and sure, there's a ton of REALLY interesting stuff there, but how do you just not talk about the drivetrain? It informs how the inside of the car is made. You can't not speculate on it, it's impossible. If the gearshift has positions for "1-2-3-4-5-6-Y", you have to guess what Y is. And whatever you guess, it's going to color *everything else* you say about that car, you're going to be constantly in the shadow of that Y. You're going to be saying, "sure, the seatbelts are weirdly short and the glovebox has like 15 mystery buttons in it, but given the presence of "Y" mode, who's surprised?" And if a year later it turns out Y mode just turns on the blinkers, now you look like a total fool and all your conclusions are wrong... but you have this mystery vehicle that nobody else has ever seen, so what do you do with it? Just say nothing and let it remain obscure? It's a minefield and I don't see how to get out of it.

Matt Whitehorn

That pain of trying to work out just how much tolerance someone has for repeated emails is one of my major dreads whenever I'm in that situation. My worst ones are finally pushing myself to send the 3rd follow up and then instantly getting an "oh, you went to spam, sorry", because email systems are so overwhelmed by spam that bots will decide mid conversation you're suddenly suspicious... I don't know how others manage the confidence to just hit send on their 39th email to someone clearly uninterested.

Nene

You can't trust the video assist though, and the only person looking through the viewfinder is going to be the DP who will have the same persistence of vision that makes CRTs work for every human. The video assist is running at 25 or 30 frames per second depending on where the feature is being shot, but the shutter is running at 24 frames per second. That means that you have to choose between the video assist flickering maddeningly, or a camera with a more advanced assist system that genlocks the sensor to the shutter which is read into a framestore that is separately read out into the video assist at a normal video speed. Unfortunately you still can't fully trust the flicker free system because now it has weird lag from the framestore, and the sensor has to be tiny to fit on the camera so it probably won't have a global shutter, and now you don't know if the black bar is real or just the video assist.

cathoderaydude

It's bizarre to me. I've dealt with most of my social anxiety but this goes beyond that - sending unsolicited inquiries to strangers borders on rude to begin with in my book, and when I get blown off by someone it stings for weeks. I'm just not cut out for investigative journalism type work of that sort.

cathoderaydude

Shiiiiiiit. Of course. Okay, I think that makes things a lot clearer.

Cinema Synesthesia

Lots of good information in this mini thread. Just wanted to make a more macro (?) point about how different all of this was in the film era, compared to now when you're just dialing in a shutter speed and seeing the results live. As others have pointed out, the video assist was next to useless to see issues like flicker or banding - not only are you seeing the 'opposite' of what the film is seeing (being a reflex monitor) but the video assist flickers like crazy anyway and was rubbish quality. And then it being the "opposite" of the exposed image is even less illustrative if you're using something other than a 180 degree shutter, because it is now a fraction. So whatever you're seeing regarding banding or flickering is completely irrelevant to what the film is exposed to. Also, if you were to use a different shutter for the shots involving video screens, now you're basically talking about a completely different camera for that department to deal with. And they would already need a different camera body if you wanted to do slow motion shots, etc. So this has huge budget and logistic implications. If you were shooting effect shots at ILM or something it would totally make sense for them to have a camera rig that is optimised for shooting against projectors / screens, but if you're a narrative feature film trying to shoot a page or two of script a day, you really don't want to be stuffing around with this. AND... remember that there are already other issues of flickering that you could be reintroducing if you start playing around with odd shutter speeds - back then they were shooting with tungsten (probably not really an issue) and HMI lights, and Kinoflow fluro tubes can cause flickering. And even if you managed dance around all this, that means you'd be stuffing around with your exposure settings / depth of field etc by altering the shutter settings. And it's hard to imagine a DP who is meticulously controlling how they're rating their filmstocks, lens choices and exposure settings in order to get the specific consistency of look once the film comes back from the lab, just throwing that away for any shots involving a screen.

cathoderaydude

Thank you for all of this because I've been rewriting script all day long and these are most of the same conclusions I came to with the help of the other folks posting here, some experiments, and just a good long think about the situation, and yet I still hadn't fully put together stuff like how much weirder the video assist gets if you're using a weird shutter. It sounds like you have some experience in this field? If so maybe you can answer a very specific question. Modified 48 Hertz displays make perfect sense for alleviating all these problems... Until you need 100 of them for a scene in a TV studio control room, right? I keep thinking about this specific scenario. If you have a huge grid of TVs, all showing different signals, in say 1994, can you really come up with 100 modified sets and 100 modified VCRs to drive them? Or at that point does it make more sense to go with conventional stock TVs, design your shot around the necessary shutter angle, and just try your best to plan as few shots in that room and from that angle as you can?

Cinema Synesthesia

Unfortunately I have no idea - to be honest your last post was the first time I realised what all of those "24 Frame Playback" credits on movies was actually about - I'd always assumed it was related to the on-set video split, or post production editing or something, because I did know that one of the advantages of AVID for years was that it could actually handle true 24fps video, rather than having to fake it with pulldown or whatever. Not what you want to hear, but my god it will be awesome if that dude comes back with some answers, because he really will be able to clear everything up. I assume you've tried to find some information from sources such as American Cinematographer?

cathoderaydude

Ah, fair enough, thanks anyway! In re American Cinematographer, I was aware of it but never knew how to get access to back issues - only to find out just now that there's DECADES of it on internet archive! This may change everything; thank you for the suggestion!

cathoderaydude

I've in fact already found a *direct* answer to my question, at least circa 1979: https://archive.org/details/1979-02_202404/page/200/mode/2up?q=CRT+sync In the *exact* scenario I described, filming a TV control room, they ended up using a more-or-less-144 degree shutter, despite having to custom-fabricate it for the camera, because customizing all the TVs *and* the hardware feeding them was impractical. This might not have been valid a decade or two later but it's still a good solid datum.

Cinema Synesthesia

ha well there you go. I guess it makes sense, they would have come up with the solution that made the most sense depending on the production. In that example they also chose to shoot at 23.97 fps rather than 24fps, and dealt with the issue of sync with sound. And presumably if it had been a scene with only a TV or two, they may have just gone with a 24 Frame Playback implementation...

Calum

I've been watching your videos for around 5 years (linear time is a cruel mistress) and I think you have a lot of leeway with your core audience for how much concrete information you present. Not to speak for literally tens of thousands of people, but I think many of us are there primarily for your unique and entertaining personality. Most of your videos are about devices that I've never heard of and had no interest in before you started talking about it. So even if your next few videos are "look at this weird computer, I can't find any information about this online" I think most of us will watch and enjoy it.