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RFR Q&A #60: The Netherworld of The Force (Patreon)

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2021-03-31 18:31:51
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2026-06
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What role does the Force Spirit play in the STAR WARS universe? Are they guardian angels or helpful guides? What responsibility and impact would they have post-Episode IX and would they push the narrative into truly uncharted territory if the story were to continue? We go off the mortal coil to consider it all!  RFR VIP Sean Wanty returns to the Q&A for another one of his deep conversations about the spiritual side of Star Wars. 

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Comments

Jared Cantor

How can anyone live without being an RFR patreon supporter? I ask you that question lol

Antonio from NJ
>>56771911

They go through life soulless without ever knowing passion or love. A truly stunted "life" hah

Jeff Holland
>>56771911

NOT being a RFR Patreon supporter is a lot like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating. LOL!

Joshua Mertz

In other podcasts when you talk about the sequels and how they don’t mention the prequels much to at all, just remember the line at the beginning of ROS when Palpatine says “some consider unnatural” cuz that was pretty badass and cool they referred to an important line in the prequels and just a good callback to him actually using his methods to prevent death. Hope you can talk about this and just imagine being in the theater and hearing Palpatine say that. Love you guys.. Jimmy you’re one of the funniest m fer I know

David Fieldsend

Work and life have been busy for me recently, so I have a lot of RFR catch-up to do. But I had to listen to the Sean W. Q&A, and he (and Jimmy) doesn't disappoint! I love the Force discussions, and wanted to share how I think of the relationship between the Cosmic Force and Living Force. I always think of the Tree of Life metaphor. The Living Force is every individual leaf on the tree, each Force-wielding or even non-Force-wielding living being in the Star Wars universe. When they act in kindness and love and hope, or when they harness the Light, they become conduits to feed greater living essence of the tree itself. That's the Living Force. And the greater living essence of the tree itself is the Cosmic Force. You can't see it, you can't feel it, and even in winter when it seems all hope is lost, it's still there.

David Fieldsend

And to me, the Netherworld of the Force is a plane of existence that serves as a connection between the Cosmic Force and those still in the world of the living. The Force ghosts who remain in the Netherworld of the Force have merged with the eternity of the cosmic realm and left their physical ties to space and time behind, but have been able to retain their spiritual identities from the living world, and they use those spiritual identities to be able to communicate with the living, like sap moving to a particular leaf in my way-over-extended metaphor.

David Fieldsend

With this assumed understanding, I never had a problem with the World Between Worlds like Jimmy does, because I thought it represented a living individual's (Ezra's) perception of a cosmic realm beyond his understanding, as in it represented how his mind, which was still tied to the non-eternal and hadn't gone through the training Yoda and Obi-wan had, made sense of the glimpse he was given of the Netherworld of the Force. I'm not a huge fan of how he was apparently able to pull Ahsoka's living body through the portal, but I guess we just have to go with Filoni's magical artifact/temple story. But it's not too different from how force ghosts emerge from the Netherworld to communicate with the living, whether through a mental or spiritual vision, or through sound and voices.

David Fieldsend

But great discussion guys!!! Keep up the good work, and excuse my running on

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56846798

Bro, that was beautiful! Any chance of you hosting a Q and A soon...? (I say this both in a slightly humorous way but also seriously. We don't hear enough about the spirituality of Star Wars! More people like you, man!)

Sean W. from Warsaw

Thanks for everyone's comments so far! Looking forward to seeing others' thoughts about what they think the nature of Force ghosts and the netherworld of the Force are. I'm especially intrigued to know what you guys think about the Skywalkers' role, specifically. Is there a more cosmic nature to Luke's mandate to pass on what he learned? Something I've been wondering in light of that is, If he was not responsible for bringing a new Jedi Order back, but something even greater, then what was it? Is it passing wisdom on to the galaxy? Restoring belief in the Force? Inspiring the general populace to reconnect with it after it had been snuffed out for so long, and thus helping to maintain a greater balance as a result? What is the relationship of Anakin's children to him when they become one with the Force, too? Are they essentially the new Father, Son, and Daughter? How do they influence the galaxy and the Force itself? All these questions and more are some of the coolest things to contemplate about Star Wars, so I hope to see more deep conversations here soon!

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56816521

Jimmy's the best! Hey, you bring up some great points that often get overlooked or ignored by the ST haters out there who think those films were just trying to bury the PT. I've had a lot of issues with how sparing the PT references are; and we know Abrams and Johnson and company are not big PT folk. But at least there are some meaningful connections they make to it in spite of their views on the PT. Most notably to me is the very beginning of TFA, when Poe is talking to Lor San Tekka, and he says "Without the Jedi there can be no balance in the Force." The concept of the balance of the Force was only something that came about in the PT. Abrams never had to deal with that concept at all, let alone mention it, if he didn't want to. Yet not only did he make an honorable mention of a hotly debated issue and cosmic concept by Lucas, but he set the stage for not just TFA but the whole ST--AND brought the story full circle to the very first Episode to inform the audience of a far broader context than what they were watching--even AGAINST the majority of people who wanted there to be no prequel references, Abrams himself included. This definitely needs to be talked about more, and Abrams, Johnson and company need to be given a little extra slack in light of this. It's not to say we should ignore their many flaws in their execution of these films, but to give them more credit than many will admit they deserve.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56816521

I just made an observation recently about this idea that I think is honestly pretty mind blowing. I just posted it over in Edward Ramoska's Q and A forum, on his episode about AOTC, but I gotta repost here because of how much it pertains to this very topic. Here's the observation. It's in the context of the Ben Solo essence transfer theory I posited in my last Q and A, "What Does It Mean to Be a Skywalker": There already is precedent for the Ben Solo essence transfer theory: The precedent is found in the Mortis arc of the Clone Wars.   It's in the episode when the Daughter dies to give her life force over to Ahsoka to bring her back to life. Ahsoka died with a dark essence in her far worse than the dark essence of Palpatine's blood being in Rey, because in Ahsoka's case she was literally being controlled by the Son. She had no will of her own. And yet, when she was brought back to life by the Daughter, she was restored to herself again. The Daughter died so Ahsoka could live.   But even while Ahsoka was restored there was an aspect to her that became more and more reminiscent of the Daughter over time. At the end of the Rebels series Ahsoka seems to be a very different person. She's even dressed all in white robes and bears a white staff, visualizing her inner change in nature, being very reminiscent of Gandalf the White. We even see that strange owl-like creature, Morai, accompany her in many places. This creature is very likely related in some way to the Daughter. In fact, in Rebels, when Ahsoka reappears in the World Between Worlds, and she introduces the creature to Ezra, you faintly hear the voice of the Daughter say "I am the Daughter." Ahsoka lives in large part because the Daughter is both with and a tangible part of her.   So, it's more than just possible that Rey truly becomes a Skywalker in every sense of the word by means of Ben Solo transferring his life essence no different than the Daughter did.  How much moreso given they are a dyad: Two that are one? And this would subsume whatever dark essence she had inherited from Palpatine, an essence that is real and tangible.   As further support of this whole theory that someone's life essence can truly transform another person, for good or for ill, consider that Palpatine's whole plan was for him to take over Rey completely with his spirit, effectively replacing her. It's different from my theory above in that he would be taking over her whole spirit and not restoring her with a new life or new identity even while she remained herself. But it's similar enough to lend support to the way I've theorized the Force works.   Essentially, you could say Ben Solo does for Rey what the Son should have done for his sister, the Daughter, when she died. This would have restored the relationship between the Son and the Daughter and would have had restorative ramifications on the rest of the galaxy, as well. That we get a kind of inverse mirror image of this between Rey and Ben Solo is fairly poetic!

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56816521

I've heard some critiques that the writers probably didn't really think this deeply about it all, and were probably just trying to think of what would work most dramatically to help the brand of Star Wars. But a few points against this that need to be made.   First, it hardly matter what was planned or not by the writers. We're always finding things to love that weren't necessarily intended by the writers! That they weren't planned doesn't undermine the integrity of said aspects. In fact, it only goes to prove how rich those things actually are!

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56816521

Furthermore, I've read a ton of interviews with Chris Terrio, the writer on Rise of Skywalker, and at a number of points he has said they were trying really hard to refer back to other parts of the mythology. He watched all the Clone Wars stuff to get prepared, and he's an avid student of mythology. He seems to have a pretty good understanding of the deeper things. So I wouldn't be surprised if he made those connections. He's one of the only writers to come out of the Disney era that I've felt confident he knows what he's doing.   Lastly, I know the ST in general, but the Rise of Skywalker in particular, are being heavily criticized for not lining up more with Lucas's mythology, and a ton of criticism aimed at Rey taking on the Skywalker name, in particular. Almost no one I've seen likes that ending. So, I think this theory actually helps the brand. It goes right back to Lucas's mythology in really deep, surprising ways; and offers the in that so many people felt lacking for Rey to be a part of the Skywalker lineage, rather than this strange outlier at the end of the whole saga. Boom.

David Fieldsend
>>56816521

Excellent points. I need to re-watch the Mortis arc. It would definitely be interesting to see how Rey transforms over time with the Skywalker essence, as theorized, like how Ahsoka transforms over time.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56816521

For sure! I've never been the biggest fan of Rey, to be honest, but that would truly be a compelling story, and one which I've given some thought to. Like, what would the rites of passage to really become one? What sort of demons of that family would she need to confront? What unique trials and challenges would there be to becoming a Skywalker? All good stuff!

David Zimmerman

Great episode! I’m intrigued by the discussion on could the force ghost interfere. I always took Bens line as he couldn’t physically interfere in the physical plane, because we’ve seen them interfere or help by talking during conflicts (Ben guiding Luke during the trench run, or Qui Gon trying to reach Anakin during the sand people slaughter ) so I always thought he meant he physically couldn’t...but then we get Luke in 9 physically doing something by lifting the xwing. So now I’m thinking that Ben just meant it was more of a choice he was making. To teach Luke another lesson.

Dan Onder

Sean and Jimmy- great Q&A. Sean, you have some deep thoughts on this subject and I appreciate the thought provoking ideas and questions you provided. I wanted to share with you a short story about Qui Gin’s force ghost you may appreciate. In Star Wars - A Certain Point of View there is a short story by Claudia Gray called Master & Apprentice by Claudia Gray. Same title as her book but it’s a short story. This story takes place when Luke leaves Ben at the sandcrawler to check on Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru. Qui Gon visits Obi Wan as a force ghost but it’s told from Qui Gon’s perspective. This story is one of the better ones in the book and it hits hard. I recommend listening to it. I don’t know if you’d consider it canon, it’s certainly not Lucas, but it’s a great story. Thanks again for the entertaining Q&A.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56898000

Thanks, man! And thank you for the reference. I listened to that audiobook years ago, and remember that section but not the details. I'll have to check it out, now! :)

Tanner Keyfauver

Excellent conversation! I really enjoyed this one, as I do all the Q&A's!

Antonio from NJ
>>56842708

my favorite part about the QAs is that it is about what could be. Imo part of what made the OT a lasting cultural phenomenon was the 16 years between the OT and the PT - where fans were left to discuss/argue/contemplate what *could be*. That's where the mythos grew, in the dark corners of comic books shops, playgrounds and conventions haha. Jimmy and Jason like to say focus on the star wars that is - not what isn't. While I fully agree with that I'd add in the best part of fandom is discussing the Star Wars that could be. That's why I hope they never truly define certain things - eg I dont want to know why Kylo was able to save Ray. When all of the mysteries are solved, imagination will die.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56895313

Good points, for sure. Don't forget the example of Yoda setting the tree on fire with lightning! All of this goes in line with Obi-wan's words in the original movie: "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." That's a key point to consider and take seriously in this whole discussion brought up in this episode, in fact. Yet they do not interfere in the lives of the galaxy, it would seem, except in cases of guidance and wisdom. That's fascinating and deserves more attention. It seems to lend more evidence to what I proposed and what you make a good point on here. It's why the fan edit of the final showdown with Palpatine, while perhaps cool and fun to see, misses the point when all the Force ghosts show up to back up Rey. They're not about power. The very philosophy of what it seems to mean to be one with the Force is about surrender to the greater powers of the world, not harnessing them. Fun stuff!

Jared Cantor

Halfway through and loving this episode! I think we learn in FAVPOV that Yoda definitely wanted to train Leia as the new hope, not Luke, and Ben had to convince him otherwise. I'm almost positive that's from FACPOV. Also, my mind was blown with the concept of father son and daughter trinity occupied by Anakin, Luke and Leia and how they could have guided the future from the force netherworld.

DarthMosk

Thanks for the great convo the shout out! Your discussions always leave me noodling the depths of SW lore for weeks! You da bomb!

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56947580

Yeah, that reference to Obi-wan and Yoda is from that book. I've always wondered how that would have gone had Leia been the one trained--or even if both were! THAT would have been a ton of fun to see! I know there was an old Infinities comic that covered if Leia was trained instead, but it didn't seem to take itself too seriously. More of a parody, if my memory serves me right. Regardless, I think Obi-wan would have been the wiser in this scenario to train only Luke. I think the relationship between him and Vader probably would have gone deeper than father and daughter, thus leading to greater compassion on Luke's part. Observe the different interpretations of Leia in the old EU and the new when it comes to her dealing with her father issues. It ain't pretty! And understandably so.

Jared Cantor
>>56947580

I think for defeating Vader and the Emperor Leia may have been the seemingly wiser choice, but to save Anakin and then have him defeat Palpatine like he should have back in ROTS, then Luke was necessary. I don't think Leia after ANH (interrogation and that whole blown up planet thing) could have seen past Vader to Anakin inside

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56947580

Anyways, yeah the idea of Anakin, Luke and Leia being the new Mortis triad is pretty mind blowing! I can't shake that this is ultimately what Lucas was foreshadowing in his Mortis arc, given the way his mind seems to work. And seeing how each trilogy is more or less about each of those three (Lucas's ST, based on what we know about his notes and such, would have been more about Leia than what we got in the ST as is, but I think a good argument can be made that Leia is at the heart of it)--given that each trilogy is about each character at its core, and given how much influence each has had on the galaxy to shape it towards lasting peace and justice (just like several opening crawls spell out about their respective stories), I think it seems pretty clear that they are the best successors to the Mortis thrones, literally or figuratively.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56947580

Yep. My thoughts exactly on what you mentioned about Leia after ANH. It would make a compelling story to get in her head and to see her come around on her father, though. Always wanted to see that....

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>56842708

These are good points worth discussing more, for sure. For as great as so many of the old EU books are (and a very, very small part of the new...) I ultimately don't necessarily see them as much more than interpretations of Lucas's stuff, and thus are, to my mind, more guides. E.g. anyone who interprets Luke other than Lucas is just one voice of many who gets to tell a potential story about Luke that may or may not necessarily be the "real" Luke. I know some have had complaints about Luke in the New Jedi Order series seeming to be way too different. On the other side, I see stories about completely original characters and time periods as being largely acceptable as the definitive stories and characters they are telling because, until someone else comes along to make more stories about those characters, they are the only stories available. E.g. the Tales of the Jedi comics. Those characters were really just the creations of Tom Veitch and Kevin J. Anderson. To my knowledge, no one else has made any stories about them, so we don't have much to debate as to what, say, Nomi Sunrider is really like. If someone else came along all these years later to make new stories about her and the others, the crap is gonna hit the fan with "That's not what they'd do!" etc. Lol That's just the way I approach it, anyways. All of this is to say that I think it's great to have all these novels, guides, etc, that really do define things more. The hangup is when people don't see them as anything more than just guides, in the end. When I came to this realization, the clash between what's "canon" or otherwise became pointless, and I could just have fun with it again! Yet, ironically, there's a part of me that would have preferred the movies to just stay the movies and not have all this other stuff. It's a strange thing. But as long as it's fun, that's all that matters! I'm not so sure any of the other stuff that might become controversial will ever ruin the original sources unless people let them. But that's just me, I guess!

Tim Brown

I wondered if the force Dyad was enabling the force healing power?

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>57064641

No doubt it adds quite a bit to it. But there's so much about the dyad we know so little about. That's why I really wanna know more about it from the perspective of our own mythology ala Joseph Campbell. This is a great conversation worth having!

Eric from Phoenix

Great conversation JMac and Sean! I’ve never really spent much time thinking about the details on this topic so it was fun hearing your thoughts.

David Fieldsend
>>56846798

You're too kind Sean. Besides the fact that I'd be too intimidated, I'm just All-Access, not VIP

David Fieldsend
>>56947580

And I think given how closely Lucas worked with Filoni on the Clone Wars, at least in the beginning, and how Filoni seems to have absorbed his Lucas-ness, and how the Clone Wars came to focus heavily on Ahsoka, and with her role in Mortis and her Morai owl everafter, it almost seems like Ahsoka mirrors the importance of the Sister for Lucas, mirroring the importance of Leia (Luke's sister). Maybe that's too speculative, but they both (Leia and Ahsoka) share many of the archetypal "Sister" qualities. I'm really hoping for something special with the 'Ahsoka' live action show. It's time for Filoni's/Lucas' special character to shine. She's had the superb abilities of Skyguy mixed with the unwavering vision of Leia.

Rob Strecker

The "shield" is still in the ROTJ novelization, but it is Luke doing it. He's just not powerful enough to keep it up as Palps ramps up the lightning.

Jeff Holland
>>56895313

Over the years, I have given some thought to Ben's line of "I cannot interfere". When I was younger, I thought - like many of you on here - there was some rules or something preventing him from interfering. But as I have gotten older, and become a parent. I believe it was just Ben putting his foot down (and sorta being a dick towards Luke) and giving Luke an ultimatum because Luke wanted to stop his training to go save his friends. Luckily, Luke didn't listen. :)

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>57252463

Good observation! I think it works the best as is in the film, though. It's debatable whether or not Luke truly understood how dangerous the Emperor really was (much like a first-time audience viewing) when he threw away his weapon . But it seems to me that he is willingly throwing his very life on the line in that moment to stand for his principles and resist the dark side threatening to subsume him. Like in TESB, he would rather die than give in to it. In the novel, it downplays this giving up of his life in favor of him having a power, however weak, to defend himself against the Emperor, so that it seems like it's a bit more of a power battle than a sacrifice. Definitely changed for the better!