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Bi-Generation: The Doctor Who 60th Anniversary Specials - Verily Podcasty - Ep 4 (Patreon)

Published:
2023-12-19 17:43:40
Edited:
2024-06-23 17:43:10
Imported:
2026-06
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What did Ada and Verity think of the three Doctor Who 60th Anniversary Specials?  Here's an overly long ramble about it!

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Comments

Vince Whitacre

Hell, Clara was introduced as a Dalek, and she's not a boy.

Steven Gibson

I had a much more cynical reaction to bigeneration. Every past actor was given clear title to role of The Doctor...right up until the black, gay, slightly foreign-sounding guy. Doesn't it seem like a hedge by the BBC that they can use if they're not happy with their viewership numbers? "Don't worry, we've still got the REAL very white, straight, and British Doctor. He's just having a bit of a lie down. Break glass in case of racism/homophobia/xenophobia." Tennant winds up being the Jay Leno to Gatwa's Conan O'Brien. These thoughts drained away what little fun I found in The Giggle. Bleh. Please tell me I'm wrong and bad for thinking this way.

Verity Ritchie

lol oh wow, yes that is quite cynical! I kind of see what you're saying, but I mean...okay, so when the BBC decided they didn't like Colin Baker in the role of the 6th Doctor, they just sacked him. He was just gone and replaced immediately by Sylvester McCoy. Regeneration is a built in safety net when it comes to worrying about whether the audience likes the current Doctor. Having David Tennant's Doctor on stand-by isn't really very different from how things were before. Tennant came back at the 50th anniversary. In 1983, the first, second, and third Doctors all came back. Jodie Whittaker's last episode had the 1st, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th Doctors all appear as fragments of the Doctor's mind or whatever it was. They don't need bi-generation to bring back David Tennant or whoever, as they proved last year. If the BBC and RTD did suddenly decide that they didn't want Ncuti Gatwa in the show anymore for whatever reason, all they have to do is sack him, regenerate him without a bi-generation and move on with another Doctor. But they can't erase his Doctor from the canon - the fans are too invested in canon for that to ever be possible. I mean, if Paul McGann is still considered canon, and Jo Martin and bloody John Hurt, then Ncuti Gatwa will forever be part of the canon. Keep in mind that they are literally filming Ncuti Gatwa's second season already, and they didn't wait to see the viewing figures of these specials. Doctor Who is completely and fully invested in Ncuti Gatwa as the Doctor. He is officially the 15th Doctor and literally no one else can ever be that. That is permanent. Having the 14th Doctor still exist offscreen can't impact that. My impression was that David Tennant's ending was about saying goodbye to the old Doctor - to all of them. His happily-ever-after makes way for the new era, Gatwa's era, which they're calling season 1. This is the beginning of the new era of Doctor Who, and season 1 of that era won't be David Tennant, it will be Ncuti Gatwa whose first episode is going to be the beginning. Five years from now, maybe ten, fifteen years on, season 1 will be Ncuti Gatwa. I just don't think he can be erased and I really think the production team is all in. Also, the only reason David Tennant came back was because he had told RTD he'd like to come back for a special and when RTD pitched it to the BBC, the BBC asked RTD to come back for full seasons. So it was decided Tennant would return before Gatwa ever auditioned.

allykitten87

Yasmine Finney is tall which doesn't help her sell herself as younger.

allykitten87

Star Beast - loved it, just really unfortunate execution of the letting go concept at the end. I agree with Ada, Meep can have whatever he/they like. Wild Blue Yonder - fantastic. Tennant and Tate are both such great actors with amazing chemistry. The Giggle - I mostly enjoyed it, but felt so weird at the end. The episode I really needed to take a moment with. NPH was great. I appreciate what RTD did with the Bigeneration. Starting on an emotionally clean slate. I am glad that RTD used a mechanic that cannot be easily replicated in anyway (because these things are happening while in a "state of play"). I found the ball game really dissatisfying. I feel like Nchuti and Tennant should have actively worked together to win the game. But I guess that was part of it, it all comes down to the game. I like how RTD chose to accept and acknowledge all the contradictory things have happened. And then just moved on. Not trying to retcon anything - I think that would have gone poorly.

allykitten87

I think this quote/point may be from your Loki video. Captain Jack was a foil for the doctor. They were very similar. Like Jack, the Doctor is an alien from a time and place where gender is barely perceived against the other characteristics at play. So, if the doctor has any attraction at all they would naturally fall under the bi umbrella.

allykitten87

I watch a lot of Video Essayists. And I often don't listen to their livestreams and podcasts, just don't enjoy listening to them as much. But I enjoy listening to your podcasts as much as watching your video essays ☺️

Morgan Ellis

I felt like there was a reoccurring theme of letting go of preconceptions in these specials. From stuff like our certainty that 14 would have a sad end because of the way we THINK regeneration must always work. Or the assumption that Donna would die, or that curing her of the metacrisis needed to be some large ordeal in itself. And even little stuff like the assumption of aliens’ pronouns, or how it feels like Kate’s about to give the Doctor a slap only to hug him instead. (that last one may be a reach, but I swear everyone I’ve seen comment on that scene got the same vibe)

Niamh

I'm so here for the doctor who content btw. Like if you wanted to do a reaction podcast for every episode I would be over the moon. Feel free to get on the mic anytime you have who thoughts of any kind.

Natasha Ryan

Sorry to jump in - I’ve seen this take a lot, so you’re not alone! I think the difference is looking at this regeneration as a 1:1 equality model where everyone does the same things and gets the same things and that’s where social justice is achieved, rather than using a change in the narrative to make a statement. To me, having one of the most recognizable and popular incarnations of the Doctor light up in joy when he sees 15, and verbally and consistently speak about him being the Doctor in a positive light within the story feels very intentional passing of the torch especially considering that the Doctor usually cannot stand other versions of themselves when they meet. That salute at the end! It feels to me like Gatwa’s Doctor gets to go on as the star of the show with Tennant’s Doctor acting as a bridge to bring the old viewers back to it and validate those changes that are to come.

Ruxandra Grecu

I was so happy when I saw you dropped a 1.5 hour podcast and so sad that I had plans last night and couldn't listen right away! But you are both delightful to listen to, it is so much fun (literally, haven't listened to podcasts in years, basically, but doing it for you) I really loved the new episodes, I've been emotionally numb lately and feeling distanced from Doctor Who, which used to be a special interest for my adhd brain, so I was shocked at my reaction during The Star Beast. The moment Donna popped up I got teary-eyed and I stayed like that for most of the episode. Her ending had just been so heartbreaking for me, even more so than I'd realized, so having her back and giving her another ending was amazing and rather healing in a way, not to be schmoopy. I also very much agree with Ada about how people have weaponized therapy online and it's fucking annoying. Especially since I have trauma from two therapists and I'm very adamant that deep human connection and a feeling of belonging can be healing (in the way that the therapy term 'having corrective experiences' leads to healing). So the bigeneration and Tennant's Doc ending REALLY got to me on a personal level. At first I was skeptical and having trouble processing, but the pasta in the garden even now brings tears to my eyes. And I am even more excited for Ncuti's Doctor than I was before!

Ruxandra Grecu

pressed enter before I could wish you 'happy holidays' and 'vesele praznike' (googled this and it's funny, cause 'vesele' means 'joyful' in Romanian, and we also have the archaic word 'praznic' as celebration!)

Aoife

Can't believe all the oppression in this (jokes, obviously). Loved hearing you talk about Doctor Who again (and am so glad it was nice and long!), I agree with you guys on pretty much everything. I had a lot of fun with these specials, The Star Beast in particular was so fun, Wild Blue Yonder was creepy (though I did think the initial big arms were a bit goofy, I think it would have been better if they were long and thin), and then The Giggle was...mixed lol. I still enjoyed it but I'm so caught on the Bigeneration thing I don't know how I feel! Part of me does love that Tennant's Doctor gets to retire and just relax and be happy, he deserves it lol. I'm looking forward to more RTD but I don't know how I feel about Ncutis Doctor yet - just because I don't know him! I haven't seen the trailers so I should probably check them out. The only thing I really disagree with you about is Jodi, I loved her lol (also Dan haha), but I didn't watch her stuff as it was coming out. I'd given up on Doctor Who after The Husband's of River Song (the real tipping point was Clara getting a TARDIS though), and by the time I got back into it (after some Big Finish therapy lol) Flux was finished and Power of the Doctor was coming soon (and came out a week before I finally caught up lol), so I think that played a part since for me her era was a relief from the Moffat BS that had turned off off the show (though I did mostly enjoy the Mysterio special and most of Bill's time with Twelve). Anyway, as another commenter said, I would be happy to listen to you guys if you talked about each episode as it came out lol, I just love hearing your thoughts on Doctor Who and how it also helps me rethink my own :)

Aoife

Omg yes I thought Kate was going to come and slap him! I'm pretty sure that's a Moffat conditioned reaction for me lol

Leigh Hile

I have another cynical-but-not-AS-cynical take on the bi-generation: when I think about Tennant's Doctor being dropped off with the Nobles to "heal" while Gatwa's Doctor flies off to have spectacular new adventures, I cannot stop thinking of that episode of Rick & Morty where Rick and Morty slough off their toxic selves and get to become happy, enlightened versions of themselves while their toxic sludge selves are saddled with all the misery. It feels like that, except played completely seriously and with no self-awareness. I get the impression that leaving 14 behind with all his accompanying baggage is a way of liberating the new Doctor from its emotional and canonical weight, freeing him up to be more fun, whimsical, hip and Disney-fied in the soft reboot. Even saying the names of all the characters the Doctor had loved and lost—Rose, Sarah Jane, Adric, etc.—felt like a message to the hardcore fans: "We've acknowledged that the Doctor still remembers his past and carries it with him, okay? Now don't get upset if HE NEVER MENTIONS ANY OF IT EVER AGAIN." Actually, re-reading my comment and editing to say that I guess this is essentially the same thing that Verity and Natasha said about bringing closure to the previous Who era and bridging over into the new era that's just beginning, except grumpier. Sooooo.... sorry for being grumpy :-/

Ghosts And You Might Die

Verity and Ada, cancelled by The Meep, and also by... each other??? 😹 I have never in my life watched a Doctor Whom, but I still enjoy listening to your commentary (today, while I was making cookies!). Happy solstice, try not to get cancelled again before 2024!

Muireann McGlynn

This podcast made my day, I love hearing from Ada and your interactions gently ribbing each other. Doctor Who is the longest running show I've followed and it has such a special place in my heart. I really liked Capaldi as an actor but feel off when they cast Matt Lucas because I find him gross and irritating. Tuned back in for Jodie and was immediately so turned off by the writing and her flat acting. These specials have felt like coming home. I've always adored 10 and Donna, they're just magic on screen together. Wild Blue Yonder was absolutely chilling. I did find the weirdly gender essentialist conclusion of The Star Beast quite frustrating. Generally that sort of thing would mildly annoy me but in an episode with a huge focus on gender non-conformity I found it grating. I also find Yasmin Finney extremely difficult to watch for the reasons you mentioned. In the grand scheme of things though I'm glad that there's a definitive stance of trans inclusivity in DW. Ncuti Gatwa is absolutely incredible and frankly mesmerising. When I first heard he was cast it just felt right to me but even I've been surprised by how arresting he is in both the show and for promo. There's something so authentically joyful about him, so fun and so confident. I agree that he feels completely fresh ane exciting while holding onto the core of what makes the Doctor. I'm seeing tons of people returning to the show and many many more people wanting to pick it up for the first time because of him. He might end up being my favourite Doctor ever. It seems like RTD is completely taken with him based on his interviews which I can't blame him for. After taking some time to process biregeneration I've decided I like it. It gave him a really memorable introduction with a lot of time to show his acting skills. It could have completely failed if he didn't hold his own against David which was a very tall order. But he completely proved any nay sayers wrong by commanding the screen when acting against a seasoned veteran and fan favourite. He brings so much life and joy to the role it feels apt that his introduction reflect that while not getting bogged down in emotional goodbyes. David's reaction to him felt really affirming as well. This way of doing things had everyone and their mother talking about Doctor Who and his performance. Which only worked because of his skill. I could write pages and pages on my thoughts but wanted to say how much I enjoy your takes on the show and if you wanted to react to every episode I would absolutely tune in.

Natasha Ryan

I'm definitely a sucker for the emotional callback stuff so I get your grumpiness! I guess we will just have to see....

Verity Ritchie

Everyone keeps talking about the new DW being Disney-fied but I think they're overestimating Disney's involvement in the show. Also I don't think this version of the show is more sentimental than when RTD ran it the first time around? And given that in the trailer for the xmas special the Doctor appears to have gone clubbing in a sexy outfit, I just feel like this is not the Disney version of Doctor Who one would worry about. And I think the references to Rose and Sarah, etc. is probably more because this is the 60th anniversary special! This special had a 1st Doctor villain, a 6th/7th Doctor companion, the daughter of the 3rd Doctor's friend the Brig, referred to Amy, Clara, Bill, and the Flux, and turned out to be a surprise multi-doctor story, which anniversary specials usually are. I feel like the fact that two versions of the Doctor have never looked at each other and said, "Adric," before was, in hindsight, ridiculous.

Verity Ritchie

Yeah the game just didn't feel satisfying, but I think any tv show I've ever watched where the characters just had to play a normal game, its never truly satisfying to watch. The original Toymaker episode was similarly not very satisfying to watch!

Verity Ritchie

I don't think we'll do it with every episode, because we want to just enjoy them on their own, but we'll see if we get inspired at some point!

Verity Ritchie

omg! Wiktinoary says the slovenian vesele and the Romanian vesele have the same proto-indo-european root! "h₁wésus"! So h₁wésus holidays, Ruxandra!

Verity Ritchie

Noooo, Dan is the worst! 🤣 No, I see what you mean, that is valid! It was very disappointing to watch as it aired, but I can see how it would be different to binge it later, especially since it ends on a high note. Now I'm imagining the scene where the 14th Doctor says to the 15th "I loved her," except the 15th Doctor replies "Also Dan haha!" 🤣

Aoife

I'd be very much interested to hear about why you guys don't like Dan, I thought he was a funny guy tbh so I'm wondering what viewpoint I'm missing lol Ahahaha that would be pretty funny to see play out lol

Ruxandra Grecu

h₁wésus holidays, Verity and Ada, hahaha

Verity Ritchie

Ada: Great comment! I especially agree as a fellow Matt Lucas hater lmao (I will never forgive him for ruining Bake Off for me, I literally had to stop watching because of him!)

Verity Ritchie

Ada: I feel bad saying this cause I don't want to ruin Dan for you! But I used to work in a museum and if there was a guy who kept coming in, despite repeatedly being asked not to, pretending to be an employee, and kept asking me out, I would be incredibly creeped out! That's all I can think about when watching his episodes and seeing the show treat him as charming (his interactions with the dog were funny tho). Vee: Also he's a shit actor. 🤣

Aoife

Ah that's fair, I guess I have the benefit of being removed from the situation so I just thought it was weird but otherwise not caring too much lol I think he and the dog have a fantastic dynamic though lol Haha I don't really notice acting as much as some people, unless it's really obvious - I actually didn't realise that Rose Noble was a bit wooden until you mentioned it and I was like "oh yeah that's true actually" - particularly in regards to when Donna is calling out about the bins and Rose just had...no reaction? I hadn't realised that was what felt wrong to me about that scene, but hearing you guys bring it up made me realise that I was unconsciously expecting her to make a face or something about it.

Jules Inkwell

This podcast is very cozy and I enjoy listening as much as I enjoy your videos. Great work to you both! Happy New Year!

Artemus

love this, same feels. Also, Neil Patrick Harris mayhem dancing to Spice Girls is for me somehow how the dumbest and queerest part of the episode

Bri Crockford

Late to the party, but I came away with something different from the "assuming The Meep's gender" exchange. To me what stood out was how The Doctor responded, which was to proceed with it as an earnest question rather than the right-wing barb that we're now used to. I think David Tennant (and Russ T Davies behind the scenes) here is important representation as a masculine figure that engages with gender in a modern way, but still a somewhat authentically inexperienced way.

Alma

So in German, because there are lots of different neopronoun options but no most generally used nonbinary/ neutral option like 'they', people really do sometimes talk without third-person pronouns. (Some people specify no pronouns for themselves.) 'The Meep says that The Meep's pronoun is always the definite article.' Which did feel gramatically very awkward at first, but you get used to it- we really do speak like this sometimes in (queer) German.

Alma

Of course one can question if we should be feeding into the The Meep's megalomania by constantly referring to The Meep as the The Meep multiple times per sentence, as this does seem to be about the The Meep's hierarchical position as The Beep of All The Meeps- (like when Scottish clan chiefs are called eg. 'The Macdonald')- and yet the show seems to establish 'The'- okay it's not gramtically really a pronoun, but as some sort of 'space pronoun option', not just for evil dictators?- see the (The?) Doctor address The Vlinx directly something like 'Hey The Vlinx, can you...'