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Michael Judge from the Death is Just Around The Corner podcast joins us to continue our series on the life and works of President George H.W. Bush. This installment focuses on Poppy’s work reorganizing the CIA, and how his implementation of decentralized systems, computerized indexing, and professionalized contractors spread influence through an endless series of intermediaries - an octopus with no head. All this leading to the scandal of scandals, Iran-Contra.

Find Michael’s podcast Death is Just Around the Corner here: https://www.patreon.com/deathcorner

And Judge Movies here:https://www.patreon.com/judgemovies

And Ghost Stories For The End Of The World here: https://www.patreon.com/ghoststoriesfortheend

Find the rest of the Poppy series ag:

Part 1: https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/471-poppy-part-1-111220

Part 2: https://www.patreon.com/posts/497-poppy-part-2-47439020

Part 3: https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/614a-best-of-texas-live-poppy-part-3-32822

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Comments

Seth Gile

My slop! Anyway, off to play linebacker for the Chicago Bears.

Brendan Kneeland

WHAT thank you!!!!!!!!!! I am so pumped for this. Thanks for the early Xmas gift

Joe

holy shit

Leo

Hell yeah

ploob

AAAAHH!

Jake V

LETS GOOOOOO

HamDrawn

Whaaaat the fuck!!! It hath return!

Guy Guyerson

We’re in the fancy trough today, fellas

Genghis Cohen

MICHAEL MAKING HIS CHAPO DEBUT LETS FUCKINF GOOOO

Joey Fazzoli

The God MSJ speaks 😳 D/C fans eating

Satcomdaemon

All my letters to satan finally paid off!

Kamran Husain

holy shit movie mindset heads MUST sub to judge movies

Reece Coren

LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO i love you guys so much

HeyB00B00

Wow poppy? Right now? Ok

Tom B

👁👄👁

Logan

Michael Judge 🔥🔥🔥

Ian Mc

Wish Matt could be on this but still hyped

Mike Loudin

Absolute God Tier crossover ep. Let's fucking go

Nolan

Let’s fucking gooooooooooooo!!!!!

🐷

🐷

William

Holy FUCKING shit

Jason Matthews

They ritually murdered Jimmy Falun Gong to produce this episode. Every medium has its Black Dahlia working, podcasting is no exception.

William

Bear down Mr monster of the midway

Xi

Let's fucking go

Brendan Palangio

Oh nice! Love Mike Judge, smart guy with great insights and my absolute favourite person to talk music with on Twitter.

Don Tickles

This is Michael Judge on Chapo Traphouse alright gang

Kevin

I never thought this day would come…

Evan Pitkin

Hey Christopher Plummer died of fall damage. Lets not tar them all with the same brush.

zxlkho

We are so fucking back

Ian H

"On the one hand I don't get half the references, and the jargon, and the accents. On the other hand, I don't get the other half either"- D. Menaker

ZeeBee

Oh HELL yeah!

Reginaldkillington

Having a poppy episode without blacked out matt in the background is blasphemy

Arrick

Let us go, shall we?

NYCM&AHole

$12 days Jimmy is going to join normalcy and have a kid and start a family. The man is otherwise a goddamn powerhouse of podcasting. Sad to see him hanging it up but at least he ended at a high note. But man being a parent is great

Olivia Kali

the boys finally got the psychic mind waves i was sending about this hell yeah

Shiv

Yelling, clapping, etc

Gordon Schmidt

Peter Baker apparently does not have a college degree, btw

chronye

first comment

Shiv

Correct!

Ozzie

Hell yess, more Poppy sloppy

glenn mohre

It should also be noted Daryl Gates was an advisor on Sierras Police Quest series and their SWAT games

Dennis

🚨New Poppy dropping🚨

David Browm

New CIA ad drop "Do you suffer from BPD? That probably means that the people in your life already hate you. So why not join the CIA?"

Jonathan Flowers

I will have to listen to the first 3 episodes...

MLVF

Holy shit

Salt M. Bank

Smash that like button if you love Michael S. Judge

Jay-Z Pants

Curious George Shoots a President

Andrew Cross

yo who gave Michael that very subtle RFK Jr voice effect

Edward Quigley

I have been praying literally for this episode, thank Jesus, praise be to poppy.

Michael S. Judge

I was noticing that too & I think it was me moving my head around in front of the mic, rather than staring at a wall for 90 minutes as is my common practice

Fingerless

boy, i hope nothing bad happens when this massive superstructure becomes untethered from tangible economic activity

N

Michael is the GOAT. You will also have him on an ep of MovieMindset if you know what’s good for you.

Andrew Cross

As soon as I hit send on that I hoped to god it wasn’t some medical thing you had no control over lmao. I’d normally listen to this in the car instead of on headphones so it’s very slightly noticeable. Cool episode, the latter part of the poppy saga has been a wait but worth it

Andrew Cross

god my brain went to the Hasan Abedi thing too

J P 3

Normally I'm not a vindictive or hateful person, but it dawned on me a couple days ago that Rush Limbaugh was dead, and it made me feel kind of happy. I suspect I am going to feel the same way about Lieberman. I'm sure he will be missed by family and friends, but his role as a public figure made the world a poorer, meaner place.

John Douglas

IMO, the best example of the heart attack gun is Allan Frankovich. Heart attack at baggage claim? That's specifically reserved for middle aged obese Arksanas housewives that have coupons at Wal-Mart. And no, that wasn't my aunt.

Shiv

what about a Movie Mindset * Judge Movies crossover miniseries: each pod hosts one (1) one fun, one goth!

triplevalaska

For real, and I sort of think this guy is full of shit, Arkansas ain't full of coke, meth maybe. That was just the one that stuck with me

Tim O'

When he said Lieberman died from a fall, my broken brain immediately went to the Dark Souls ring that cancels fall damage. Luckily Felix was right there with me

William

I’d love to see a “hard knock life” mashup of Biden falling down

DaleAndrews1st

Isn’t Part 3 just a redo of Part 2 but live?

Zach H.

Gravity came to claim Joe Lieberman.

Matthew Krueger

"We'll justify and ordain your paranoia and self loathing!"

T

George Will never had the makings of a varsity athlete

William

Oh shit what McDonall Douglass people did to Boeing is what poppy did to the “deep state” - outsourced major operations, basically leaned out the company until it was just people who strategized or “assembled” end products- which means most of the operations of “empire” are now done by non-state actors it all fucking fits

SF

I also thought the bridge collapse was a Ronnie-related

Dan

What if Matt gets one of those neuralink implants and becomes IRL lawnmower man

Kevin Boyle

McKnulty needs to get on the boat and investigate the location the power went out in the cargo ship. If you plot it out, if you are real police, you see the power died in city jurisdiction, and only hit the bridge in county jurisdiction. One more body for Bunk.

Dan

SWAK?

Dan

Respect for radical honesty in username

king_von_diesel

This is that fine, mexican, black tar slop I keep hearing about

Dan

My mind changed that to Ginger Baker, been watching too many drumming videos

Dan

You can’t just walk around with a lollipop head like that and not expect to tip over ffs

Of course

I'm glad Chapo + Judge confirmed what I expected: the CIA used its heart attack gun on the captain of the MV Dali in order to destroy the Frances Scott Key Bridge. "Reformed" agency indeed.

James

Please make this public

T

I'm gay defense contractor McDonnell Douglas.

David Andrews

Great episode that only would have been better if Matt were included.

Hot Rod

Love the shoutout to Matt at Ghost Stories.

etienne

im smoking the most pure refined Poppy rn

Jaime Christley

I keep hitting like on this hoping it will make the like number go up past 1

Jaime Christley

Hoover basically birthed copaganda in movies (subsequently TV); I'm thinking CIA got to it late bc such a thing was unseemly, or ungentlemanly, or whatever. Like, just the kind of gutter stuff a try-hard prole striver like J Edgar would get up to. But it's all muddied now - even a recent movie like THE EQUALIZER 3 takes great pains to isolate the CIA from various overseas nogoodniks.

Joe Peterson

Hell yeah - didn’t see this coming but super psyched

Tim O'

The people gotta know!

Jaime Christley

Hope the lads are aware of Ghost Stories for the End of the World - Matt would make a terrific guest for a variety of topics (including Octopus, Poppy; he's killing it with a Belgium series) but I'll add this as well: if you want someone who can succinctly tie together '90s Britpop and the subsequent enshittification of UK politics at large, Matt's your only man.

Tim O'

I figured Stav just stepped onto the bridge and it collapsed

Will

Joe Lieberman. Truly, a pointless life. Spent the entirety of it making sure people are an unhappy as possible because that’s the best compromise and then died by falling down. The average guy bagging groceries who dies at 50 from a fentanyl overdose has lead a life with more meaning, love, compassion and art than Joe Lieberman. Novels are written about that guy. Joe Lieberman’s obituary should say “Well, he was here, I guess.” A razor-sharp example of why money and power - by themselves- do not inherently deserve respect.

James Blackmon

Imagining George Will in a Bears uniform

Sman

Aaron

A CIA of Alex Jones'

Chase Wall

Never occurred to me until now, but it would make me bust in my draws if MSJ became third mic until Matt’s back

James Proulx

He never had the makings of a varsity athlete.

Jaime Christley

he's implying that Syria hijinks would be bracketed as part of the 9/11-and-onwards spree.

Patron

man, when felix is really on, absolutely nothing beats this show. he’s so damn funny.

Jack

Watched The Good Shepherd last night- pairs perfectly.

——

Man this guy really does the “no accent Latina tv reporter saying las Angeles” thing so hard

Justin Zuberka

Omg what a treat poppy pt4 😳😳😳

Cs

Glad someone finally gave Ghost Stories for the End of the World a shout out

Jaime Christley

He went on You Can’t Win not too long ago to chat about Belgium: def worth a spin

Jaime Christley

I made this comment well before hearing the shout out towards the end lol

Tim Mullen

I find that by focusing on one person to demonstrate how a system works and not treat the individual as an agent of history is one of the best ways to teach a topic

Jessica S

Wha???? Awesome.

m@tt

Could Lindsay Graham play tight end for (the) Bears?

Cullen S

When Will abruptly ended the episode while Michael flowed the poppy slop, it made me audibly moan/groan like a hungry coyote caught in a snare trap

Schwartz666

So good, but it's an unforgivable slop crime to do this w/o Matt!

DR

Keep the homophobia to yourself, thanks.

Erik Amundsen

I knew there was a disturbance in the Nutmeg... Rest in Piss, Joe L

Jaime Christley

As someone who grew up in Connecticut, it cannot be overemphasized that that entire state is inside The Shimmer from ANNIHILATION.

Dan Z

Huge back the plug for Judge Movies! It's such a great podcast. He has a Kubrick series, Scorsese series, and so many other great ones

Michael Branes

i'm a state worker, and most of us are really fucking boring people

John

Love that show.

MinkL0af

The Octopus has a head, it is just non-human. The head of The Octopus is the machine itself, which, at this point, does constitute a form of consciousness, and does have objective direction and desires. The machine used to be entirely dependent upon the collective effect of all humans interacting with capital markets, and therefore the machine was directed by a human collective consciousness, but as we create physical machines to automate all market transactions on our behalf, the machine creates itself and grows increasingly independent of us. The actions of the machine no longer fall on the spectrum of either random or human-biased, it tends increasingly towards self-reification. So there is a conscious director of the tentacles, but as in the case of all octopi, the head knows the tentacles, but the tentacles do not know the head.

Nick Muscatiello

That’s one of the hardest Chapo cold opens of all time

Nick Muscatiello

Chris never fails to insert Looney Tunes style vaudevillian SFX at every opportunity

Biannual Beats

Absolutely amazing and eye opening episode. Learned today that I have a morbid interest in this exact subject and timeline. The “WW3 already happened” idea is gnarly…

Caitlin-Kangaroo

Never did I find George H W Bush interesting in any way until this saga.

m@tt

Pt.5: The Jeb files

Ben Hirsch

You played a clip w former epa water director Fox as if she is the neutral deep state.... But her water privatization promotion will probably kill as many as some of the goons that seem more exciiting

Dogface Reilly

The “wilderness of mirrors “ line was TS Eliot, being plagiarized by James Jesus Angleton, who published him back when he was at Yale

Garrat M

God I'm so erect right now getting more of the Poppy series

stinkface

Judge is always an ace guest but man Lars von Trier was once a master and the house that jack built is such garbage. He's been putting out progressively worse films for like 15 years now, it's sad

Michael S. Judge

He'll never play linebacker ... but he might play Locker Room Sexual Totem

Michael S. Judge

I debated whether or not it was worth explaining that Angleton stole it from "Gerontion" to prove his Sensitive Bonesman credentials, but people outside lit academia who know that phrase mostly know it from Angleton in this context, so I just let it roll. I did however excite my membrane with pungent sauces

Ksizzle

So is “the fourth reich”hyperbole for the sake of emphasizing how evil these guys are? Because it seems to be motivated by profit rather than ethnic conquest like the third reich was? I’m fairly ignorant in history pls someone explain

Bryan Peifer

Spot on Felix about the Wurlitzer. About the falling makes you stronger, I laugh from personal experience I say fuck you your time is coming HA!

Mike Loudin

A change.org petition to have Michael Judge be a monthly Chapo guest

Poppy Chulo

Beware of any man who has no vices because that is one evil mother fucker.

DC714

More of this man please

Kevin

I’m sad Matt couldn’t be here for the continuation of Poppy but Michael was awesome and a perfect choice for a host in his absence. Great job, boys.

Last Years Man

So basically, Poppy is Graham Greene's metaphorical Quiet American

AbeLinkin

I think that’s just something addicts say to feel better. You can be clean and not evil simultaneously.

Poppy Chulo

Vices are more than drugs.

Brad Bauerly

I love it when you dig into intelligence agencies. This and the other episodes on Poppy are my favorite Chapo episodes. Keep it up!

John

U may be correct peter. But two extremely powerful demons like bush & hitler are interesting individual cases.

John

Jimmy falung gong is finishing up ? I’m off twitter so out of the loop ? Say it aint so …

John

That was fantastic as usual michael !!

ploob

Famous non-vice havers George H W Bush and Adolf Hitler

ploob

🤞

TangiePower

Post WWII these Ivy League WASP-types incorporated elements of the Nazi military , financial, diplomatic and intelligence apparatus into the CIA in order to fight socialism, thus creating a degree of institutional continuity between the America’s global apparatus and that of the third reich

AbeLinkin

That’s a joke, right? Hitler loved drugs more than anyone

Michael S. Judge

and then they killed and immiserated WAY more people in WAY more places than Hitler could conjure in his serenest Eukodal daydream

Michael S. Judge

it's my feeling – and I have evidence, it's not strictly intuitive – that Poppy was up to some weird sex stuff. Unfortunately, I also agree with Felix that he probably had an unnervingly long dick

The Steel Harvest

did we really skip over Matt being behind the FSK bridge incident? guys...

Ksizzle

Ahh i see, so America’s global dominance can be understood as the third reich’s more successful cousin. Not as directly fascist/ethnically motivated but willing to kill/destroy anyone or anything standing in the way of capitalism?

Evan O'Reilly

As much as the Third Reich was an antisemetic project, it was even moreso an anticommunist one, and there is 100% continuity on that point with the CIA. I would also strongly suggest that the way these Ivy League WASPS were willing to subjugate and brutalize the Third world was not less racist than the Nazis in any meaningful way. We're talking multiple genocides tacitly or explicitly supported by American intelligence. The Phoenix Program in particular was nearly identical to Nazi anti-partisan campaigns and swept up loads of innocent people based on their ethnicity alone.

Ksizzle

Appreciate spelling it out for me! Guess its not really a hyperbole, Any go too book recommendations i can sink my teeth into on this?

Evan O'Reilly

Killing Hope by William Blum is a pretty comprehensive account of the CIA's various interventions in the 20th century. Kill Anything That Moves by Nick Turse is an extremely grim account of our actual conduct in Vietnam. And NATO's Secret Armies by Daniele Ganser goes deep on how we essentially rearmed European Fascists and their collaborators as a proxy force in the Cold War. All three can be found as free pdf's online. The Jakarta Method by Vincent Bevins is a much more recent one about CIA support for a genocide in Indonesia, they've had him on Chapo a couple times.

Evan O'Reilly

Oh yeah and Family of Secrets by Russ Baker is basically where all the info in the Poppy saga specifically comes from.

MKatieUltra

I think he sounds a lot like Noah Kulwin

MKatieUltra

Oh no the House That Jack Built I wish I could unsee that one part

vibe cop

i’m al pachino i’m barack obama i’m ryan chut and i’m gay

Dan

34:54-35:13 re:The Cold War being World War 3, I was watching a documentary about Operation Condor in South America; A former officer in one of the anti-communist dictatorships from that time says in an interview that the military he served in were told explicitly that they were fighting WW3,against Communism. The anti-Communist/Gladio forces around the world always conceived of the Cold War as one civilizational struggle against Communism, rather than discrete regional conflicts, fought against a communist world that was fractious and often antagonistic to one another.

Christian Bendillo

All jokes aside, bro’s poppy impression is so good it scared me no 🧢

Michael S. Judge

Condor and Gladio are two of the best and most direct illustrations of the WW3 thesis, but I think it's important to get people to the point where they can see that Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Korea, and Vietnam were all WW3 too. Afghanistan, Chile, Brazilian dictatorship, Arbenz in Guatemala, Mossadeq in Iran, Albania, Argentine Dirty War, Lumumba in the Congo, our sponsorship of Savimbi and Mugabe and Mobutu, Apartheid South Africa, it's ALL World War III

Pedro Lippe

Will doesn’t know what imposter syndrome is 😂 Great ep

drizzly_november

It’s so wild that Poppy was the coldest stone killer to occupy the White House since Andrew Jackson, murdered the president and moved more drugs than the East India Company, but because he did it all wearing a J. Crew pullover, Americans called him a wimp.

charlie johnson

Is this the “really exciting” thing?

Paul Adam

Ghost Stories' series on The Octopus is truly astounding. The last episode or two where his connects the dots to Afghanistan and 9/11 goes so unbelievably hard.

John Mitchell

Bro, the financialization of the U.S. economy was the entire goal from the git go. Where was Poppy hanging on the morning of 9/11?

John Mitchell

The list of pwrsonal hit squad ops under Munroe at the end of the pod is, "just defending the borders."

John Mitchell

Hope you continue. Maybe do a 4 part on "iran-contra" but show how it was part of an organized attack against U.S. industrial/urban powercenters (jusr like they did in Central Americas) by financial capital. Oh, and bother to mention the one handgun that assassinated three presidents

James Blackmon

That's the third mic. He's so impressive, but death/corner

YourBabysFather

They should have had Brace on, he would have inside information on the modern CIA & the modern day version of operation mockingbird

CT

Ooooh! Do you have special little opinion??? Woaaaaaah. Everyone was sitting there, eagerly awaiting some rando’s oh so unique perspective!

CT

I’d also recommend throwing The Devils Chessboard by David Talbot into that mix.

Doug Cartel

Lieberman hated video game violence but there's that old news article about how he was cheering every time a Serb got shot in Behind Enemy Lines

Will Elliot

We lead the world in computerized data collection

Conor Jones

God damn you must be dumb

Burlack Sapp

Poppy sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers

Tucker McCann

He summed up Angleton so well😂

K

Wanted to shout out Felix's based boy Jimmy James Cameron for naming Quaritch's group "Project Phoenix" in his film Avatar

K

Maybe you guys could do an episode on how fucking sus the assassination of John Lennon was? That the CIA could whack massive cultural icons in broad daylight and flash its calling cards (Chapman pulling out the Cather in the Rye) just for the hell of it

TugNuggins

They killed him for making annoying music

Petrorenminbi

When I found out the doorman of the Dakota was an anti-Castro Cuban I did the Leo pointing meme in real life

Methew

I’d recommend the American exception series on YouTube on geopolitical economy reports channel as well. It’s long as hell and thorough and sweeping. The Nazis lost, but fascism won WW2, it was integrated into a larger project of international fascism is the best way I’d put it. Everyone’s book recs are great, it’s probably worth throwing the shock doctrine by Naomi Kline also. Confessions of an economic hit man too.

Methew

He deleted the patreon? Is there an episode archive? I was new to him just days before it all went away. Also recognize u from AE comments lol

Methew

@nycm

Cade Bryan

MSJ got insane pronunciation skills

Dr. Ron Jambo

Sorry to say: All tentacles and no head makes poppy YOG-SOTHOTH

Khemith

Hopefully Joe Lieberman is in a afterlife exactly like purgatory from "The Good Place" And everytime he complains a Angel and demon show up and say "This is centrist heaven! We give both sides their due!"

Megatark

I never thought of it that way before but I think you're right, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were more the start of WW3 than the end of WW2

Backofhouse4

The line in here about hw getting rid of the “knuckle draggers” makes me think about the Harris to Dick Cheney collation to stop Trump. The most absurd maga weirdos will get fed into the wood chipper (of course they deserve it and probably worse) but all the rest of the shark eyed psychos that make the world bad will skate and only grow in power. Grim times.

Joey Fazzoli

Cheney & bernie on a bus 💀

Joey Fazzoli

This is how you pay me back?!

Hot Rod

Folks use the Octopus as the corporeal metaphor for deep state organizations…and forget the Deleuzean rhizome or Agamben’s coming community. 30’-38’ was mind-blowing. I’m slow.

Kamran Husain

bring mike and matt back together for the next edition or i Seppuku

Hardcore Virgin

Also I don’t know if it is mentioned or not, but the searchable database, through index and keyword, was created by Ghislaine’s sister

etienne

good episode but "I have this pet theory that World War III already happened and it's everything that happened between the moment WWII ended and the Soviet Union ended" we already have a name for that THAT'S THE COLD WAR people in real life recognize this series of events as "the Cold War"