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In a perfectly paired color-based double feature programed by Hesse, Movie Mindset examines two very different films about women in the entertainment business and the psychologically distorting effects of pursuing art and fame.

First up from 1948 is The Red Shoes, a Powell and Pressburger joint about an aspiring ballerina who joins a renowned company and faces a choice between living for love or art. This one ranks among Martin Scorsese’s favorites, and if he thinks that highly of this picture, who are you to question?

Next, from 1997 is Satoshi Kon’s Perfect Blue, a terrifying and disorienting examination of the mental dissolution of a young J-Pop star, Mima, who decides to quit music for a career as an actress. As she is stalked in both the real world and online, a series of grisly murders begin to take place around her and both Mima and you the viewer will begin to question your sanity.

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Comments

LEAH NELSON

Love you guys but don’t really appreciate how you post only when no one is awake

Matty yglesias

not at all, third show should be at least related to politics or something adjacent not wills hobby of being an inside kid

Hugh

Movies are political. So are mindsets.

Michael Naatjes

Has anyone seen "The Story of Film: An Odyssey"? It's a wonderful docuseries on film history. One of the episodes features The Red Shoes

Jason Chapa

I watched PB when they showed it on “The Last Drive-In” and enjoyed it but the next day a close friend who watched it with us passed away and it’s unfortunately been tied to that since. Hoping this will help rehab it a bit, though I admit that is some selfish over-sharing!

Mac

You better be careful I was called transphobic last week for not enjoying their Wikipedia movie summaries.

Ctrane

Your cat looks incredibly uncomfortable around you

Axel H.

So don’t listen, you joyless, miserable fuck.

Matty yglesias

i’m not, enjoy listening to wikipedias read out loud

Sam Ray

Perfect Blue is 🔥

Ctrane

Maybe you could brush up on your grammar instead

Michael S. Judge

I don't why it took me years to realize this, but just the other day, I suddenly clocked that the cover of THIS YEAR'S MODEL by Elvis Costello is supposed to be him in Powell's PEEPING TOM

Michael S. Judge

Diaghilev and the Ballet Russes were the people who put on Stravinsky's early productions too, including the famous RITE OF SPRING premiere that turned into a riot, and not so much about the music, but because Diaghilev let his best male dancer Vaslav Nijinsky choreograph the thing, and it's really worth looking up a filmed production with the original dancing, because Nijinsky went stupid doodoo dumb (and then went insane)

Michael S. Judge

He spent 30 years in asylums, not speaking, drawing sketchbook after sketchbook of the eyes he felt looking at him, thousands of invisible eyes, which was among the more reasonable reactions to World War I, and I think EQUUS might be loosely based on him too, because he had some kind of fixation with being a big-dicked horse

TC

I really loved how the first time we see Mima the focus is on her wearing the Red Shoes and then the screen pans upwards to reveal her identity.

The Out

Next seasons color episode could really just be both of saulnier’s “colors”, both of those movies are perfect

nick

Smile 2 is a 90% ripoff of perfect blue

Fernslinger

Hi Mac, you got called a loser and a dork but no one said you were transphobic. I think you’re being a little bit of a drama queen in my humble opinion. Love you bye

John Harwood

Obviously Kieslowski’s The Three Colours trilogy would be pure movie mindset

Matty yglesias

funny hearing someone listening to a 2 hour podcast about movies from 60 years ago calling someone else a dork.

Dustin Nelson

Perfect Blue comes in around 1:07:30- ish; nothing against Red Shoes I just wanted to see it first before hearing the episode

Anomalie

Perfect Blue is like, a perfect movie, RIP Satoshi Kon, I really think he had a knack for portraying the permeability of reality, loved Paprika and Paranoia Agent for this reason as well, but Perfect Blue really captures the disorienting factor

Mac

@fernslinger The user “Pancy Nelosi” literally said I was “transphobic” and had “internalized homophobia” for finding hesse annoying. When I said I hope Hesse reads their white knighting and wants to fuck them, they edited their comment to “dog farts”. But thanks for acting as hall monitor for the Chapo Patreon comment section! I hope you get a taste of the Patreon money.

emalco

Love the Archers! Esp A Canterbury Tale and I Know Where I’m Going. Powell and Pressburger’s movies have such a strong sense of humanity and understanding of eccentricity. And Anton Walbrook’s performances in this and Colonel Blimp are so nuanced and compelling.

bruce

God, I love perfect blue. Please consider next time possibly doing a double feature of something with paprika, another amazing kon joint, but this time concerned with how being online is melting down all of accepted sociality into an amorphous slop that drives us insane

bruce

It’s an extremely Chapo movie

bruce

Hey hot head maybe consider taking a chill pill and sitting down for a bit

Mac

lol now I’m a drama queen or a hot head. I regret ever saying a co-host of a podcast can be annoying.

Ant koz

“A real Freddy Lounds situation“ huh Menaker… Always teasing this pilgrim with the Hunter and never delivering the Mann.. -Great episode, I love nothing more than when y’all toss out in episode film Recs: I have red rooms cued up to watch with my partner tonight, after we play secret intruder by god!

justdave

Never saw em. Look too scary 😨

Dick Van Sexel

It's hilarious that the trailer for perfect blue starts out with the GKIDS label.

Mac

Quite a projection. I love movies and still listen to the show because I think Menaker is a great film critic and podcast host.

Matty yglesias

or i’d rather go outside. i run marathons/half marathons so tell me about “attention spans” you’re just a nerd who is afraid to go outside and feels the need to say it’s cuz im smart.

Axel H.

But you’re not outside. You’re here being a loser. 🤔

Axel H.

The first time I will actually watch a movie before listening to this. I’ve seen Perfect Blue, it’s one of my favorites, but I’ve never seen The Red Shoes. Very interested in the comparison between these two.

Luisa

So funny when people complain about these, you know you can just not listen! Love MM and Hesse <3

Connor Schoen

A Matter of Life and Death is great as well

Dildo Saggins

Never seen The Red Shoes but the Kate Bush album inspired by it is fantastic.

Tim O'

I like it when Hesse programs an absolute fever dream of an episode

Zach H.

If Will liked The Red Shoes, then a future season needs to cover Powell & Pessburger’s work with Black Narcissus and The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp.

Zach H.

Paranoia Agent is worth it if you have time for a short series. It highlights the avoidance of reality in modern culture and has rumor and lies creating an actual physical monster.

Jaime Christley

if The Red Shoes got its hooks into you but you're keen to see how much these lads (P&P) can flex, make these a priority: The Small Back Room, I Know Where I'm Going!, Gone to Earth (but not the Selznick hatchet job), 49th Parallel, One of Our Aircraft is Missing, as well as the aforementioned The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, Black Narcissus, A Matter of Life and Death....... Oh hang it all if you can get hold of any of their films, or Powell's solo efforts, do so. Thank me later

Dick Van Sexel

The preview showed up on my middle school aged daughter's feed. She watches a lot of ghibli clips. I was like fuck no. I'm no prude, i took her to see jaws in imax when she was 9. Lol

Dick Van Sexel

This is one of the most pathetic trolling attempts I've seen in the chapo comments. I'm reminded of a common phrase three 6 mafia used to shout out.

ERIC

Will, commendable improvement on controlling your enthusiasm. You guys are even better when Hesse has a little more breathing room. Thanks for making these. Real nice to hear people talk about art and what they love in between the dark realities of American politics.

Dustin Johnson

I want to know more about Hesse's Sex In The City lifestyle watching movies with Ballerinas and wig experts.

awwwwwwww

I also heard "wall" not "war"

Hot Rod

Came here for this - and for Zizek’s Perverts Guide to Cinema

Hot Rod

Shout out to another Perverts Guide link.

Nah

On the topic of colour movies, I first saw Perfect Blue in a triple bill with Three Colours Blue and Blue Velvet, all first times.

Stop the Spread

Real shit, you should do the color purple… That said, I’ve no interest in the Red Shoes, but I did convince my wife to watch Perfect Blue a few years ago. Big mistake.

Creemi

I watched the Perfect Blue for this show cause it looked like a kinda sweet anime but goddamn that movie is *fucked up*

Matthew

I loved Paprika back in the day but never looked any further into Kon's work until getting ready for this episode; Perfect Blue fucks with your perception and certainty so much harder than Paprika. Wow and thanks to Will and Hesse for putting listeners up on this absolute heater 💐🙏🔥

Sammy Zucker

I don’t think the ending of Perfect Blue was nonsensical, if anything I think it was a brilliant reveal of the MKULTRA sx slave sorta situation she was in…

demonsweat

Kurosawa's PULSE would fit in with its "Internet is a demon swallowing the world" conceit.

Last Years Man

The commentary on Perfect Blue is spot on. As someone lives in Japan and subtitles Japanese media for a living, I can add a couple more layers. Not only is identity in flux or even non-existent throughout the film, but in Japan, a good portion of a person's identity is defined from without, rather than within. You are defined by your social relationships and your obligations to others. So beyond the commodification (which is definitely true) of body and soul in the entertainment industry, there's also a tendency to rationalize and even romanticize the relationship between artist and fan. The artist is taught that they owe their very existence to fans and that the fans must come first. The fan also makes their membership in the larger fan group a key part of their identity too. It's reciprocal and truly parasocial, rather than just transactional. For either of them to prioritize themselves is seen as a betrayal and it's not uncommon for celebrities here to apologize to their fans and their sponsors for various transgressions - even something as simple as having a romantic partner (which is forbidden for most pop idols). This isn't necessarily because of the sexual aspect but more that the artist has an obligation to maintain the fans' dream of attainability. So Mima is really assaulted from all sides and there are many "hands in the pie" of her identity, both meta and personal.

Last Years Man

Yes. Hesse is truly an equal partner in this and it seems like she sometimes struggles to get a word in. Her insights are always really interesting and coming from a different angle than (though perfectly complementary to) the usual Dry Boy analysis.

Last Years Man

We could really use his voice right now. Died way too soon.

Last Years Man

Ooooooooh. Wow. The camera. I can't believe I never caught that. The lyrics on that album are totally in synch with this too.

Last Years Man

Funny, I actually subscribed, originally, for access to Movie Mindset. I'm starting to think you really are Matt Yglesias.

Dank Widow

Movie Mindset is my fave

Dank Widow

Genuinely curious if Will and Hessa have seen Kaurismäki’s Proletariat trio

ERIC

Don't come at the king like that.

Lisa Ballard

Former dancer here (had to quit young cause my body was so damaged- intensive training w/ 70 yr former ballet Russe French lady who basically said no boyfriends, ballet is all you need to live. Also eat seeds and water, breath the air, it is enough.) Extreme pain and sacrifice to perform beautifully, constantly. It consumes ur life unlike other art/athletics- ur own body is the canvas, the instrument, and the amount of blood/sweat/tears is hidden, the relentless effort to look effortless. Anyway...really appreciated them mentioning black swan cause it pissed me off they tried to claim Portman did all the dancing. I knew of the dancer who they used, there's a good interview online. The ballet dancing in the red shoes is pretty awful by today's standards (technique wasn't stressed back then) but the performance still beautiful. Sorry I'll stop rambling now 🫠

Drew

Love a good Hesse-programmed ep

sweetiepie

The Red Shoes blew my mind

J Fitz

Episode on Colonel Blimp when

Tess

I like this show but the intro music fills me with dread

grant brown

I worked on a little homage to Perfect Blue at work a few years ago

bruce

i would say paprika is exactly as oddly terrifying as perfect blue

Sean Peden

A couple notes for Perfect Blue: The final line is recited by Rumi's voice actress, not Mima's. Also Satoshi Kon repeatedly said he was almost embarrassed by how darksided Perfect Blue is compared to the rest of his filmography. The funny part to me is he said he, in no way, meant for it to be a particular critique of the idol industry and that he wanted to be respectful about it. Imma be real dog, I don't believe him lol. The other thing of note is that he had stated that the original intent was to depict a story about an identity crisis with a happy ending, that it's intended to be a story of a woman finding herself. Again, I gotta say, I have a tough time believing him. Not that he came across as a dishonest person by any means at all, I think he was very much informed by Japan's culture of politeness and not ruffling feathers, like he would be too sheepish or uncomfortable to call it out directly. Either that, or he didn't create the movie he intended to create - hence his distancing from it in his later years. I think I see Satoshi Kon as someone who was genuinely tapped into humanity in a very, VERY real way - so tapped in that the "respectful" depiction of the idol industry can't exist: his commitment to reality and the human condition just expose the horrifying nature of celebrity culture whether he wanted to or not. If he was gonna show something real, he's gonna show something fucked up - idol/celebrity culture and the entertainment industry simply *are* that fucked up.

Sean Peden

Also would be worth going more in-depth when talking about Aronofsky ripping off Perfect Blue so blatantly is so annoying - Perfect Blue becomes more and more pertinent and horrifying every day in how accurate its predictions are regarding modern culture and the internet, to the point where the film now speaks to not only celebrity culture, but the culture of social media at large, whether you're a celebrity or not. Aronofsky kinda took all the visual motifs and mind-trickery from it and made it about... ehh? The chase for perfection? And as a result the movie feels far, far less empathetic to women than Perfect Blue was.

Sean Peden

Anyways, banger episode. Now I gotta watch the Red Shoes (I've only seen the Kate Bush short, lol)

Sean Peden

@justDave Paprika and Paranoia Agent have their freaky moments, but are nowhere near as disturbing and bleak as Perfect Blue. Paranoia Agent in particular is almost more of a satire than a thriller, every episode is basically a different genre. You can also check out Millenium Actress and Tokyo Godfathers, which don't really have any thriller elements at all.

oo __

hey bro, take your exalted elocution and make your own podcast.

oo __

jesus what a ride!

HamDrawn

It's so good! Just saw it for the first time and was blown away. Appreciate your write up on Perfect Blue btw.

professional loaf of bread

1:32:30 I’m not sure if it’s cuz I wanted the dub but the rape scene does get its own name after they pause the scene

Sasha Kosek

Watched Red Rooms after it was mentioned on this episode and it really deserves its own movie mindset review. Insane stuff

Ry

Banger ep 🔥

Eamon Short

This is an exclusively Tim-head, anti-hobbit podcast. Greg-heads aren't welcome.

Gabe Juniper

Great episode. A detail on Perfect Blue that gets lost in translation: when Mima’s on the phone with her mom, it reveals that she and her mom speak in a Kansai accent. The rest of the movie Mima speaks in a Tokyo accent because it’s the “standard” accent that people who work in Japanese entertainment are expected to emulate regardless of what part of the country they’re from. It adds another layer to the artifice of Mima’s public persona— she can’t even speak the way she naturally would if it weren’t for the expectations placed on her by her industry.

Gabe Juniper

And, if my recall is correct, Mima also lapses into her Kansai accent when she’s alone in her room. Most notably when she breaks down about not wanting to do the rape scene— a moment of honesty and authenticity that she rarely affords herself or is afforded by anyone else in her life. By putting on a fake accent, she’s effectively “acting” in every scene of the movie save for when she’s alone in her room.

Richard R

On things lost in translation, is Mima's name a reference to the verb "to watch"? ( 見ます)

Richard R

Hey, since you'd probably know, is Mima's name a reference to the verb "to watch"? ( 見ます)

Last Years Man

I'm afraid that's a no. "Mimasu" is the polite form of the root verb "Miru". All polite inflections are formed by verb +masu, so ma without the su would have a completely different meaning. Mima is actually a fairly unusual, if not non-existent name. The kanji is 未麻. When I do a google search for it, all the results refer to perfect blue. Literally 未 means "not yet". For example future (mirai) is written as "未来” or "not yet come." Immature (mijuku) is written as 未熟 or "not yet ripe". Incomplete (mikansei) is 未完成 or "not yet complete". 麻 is usually the kanji used for hemp, but apparently it also can mean numbness or the loss of feeling. So I guess it could be interpreted as "Not yet numb" but I'm not sure if that's a stretch or not. I tried seeing if I could find anything about the name on google, but I struck a blank. Only Kon knows what the name means, and dead men (unfortunately) don't talk.

Last Years Man

It's been a long time since I last saw Perfect Blue, but I also had the feeling, way back when, that Mima had somehow emerged with a new self-confidence and had become a fully adult woman. Will and Hesse's take made a lot of sense though so I'd have to watch again to see if I can pick up anything extra. As far as not being disrespectful, I think it's less "politeness" and more that criticizing idols or their fan base is kind of seen as "punching down" in Japan. He didn't want to be seen as elitist. I can sort of understand what he means in that the film is not necessarily an *overt* commentary on these things. Just as you said, the story captures its themes so well that you can't help but come away with disgust. That's how art should work, really.

Last Years Man

I never liked Requiem for a Dream, but I do like Black Swan. If you can read Japanese, Kon did a blog post about meeting Aronofsky once. Typical self-effacing stuff, where he jokes around about the meaning of homage and the differences between scale and budget in Japan vs. Aemrica. The picture he paints of Aronofsky is affectionate and a little funny in its own way. https://konstone.s-kon.net/modules/notebook/archives/60

Richard R

Cool! Thanks for the deep dive all the same.

Last Years Man

Thanks for the exuse, ha. Deep dives are my jam.

Blown Load Steve Austin

I watched the red shoes last night and god damn what a picture. We love movie mindset

Gabriel

Satashi Kon dying youngish is such a huge what if in cinema

Lee

Check out Paranoia Agent and Millenium Actress too- and Tokyo Godfathers is a truly uplifting Kon movie that I watch every Christmas! :)

Lee

Kon is one of my top 5 directors period. Hes so so so good. Incredibly missed. Paranoia Agent, Paprika, Millenium Actress, and an amazing Christmas movie, Tokyo Godfathers (great chaser after PB ha) Also still so sad that Kon’s last movie, ‘Dreaming Machine’ hasn’t been produced. Don’t know that it ever will. But so grateful for what we do have of his genius.

Lee

Also, in Perfect Blue, does anyone else feel a slight connection to the real tragic, events of Selena? Maybe a stretch but felt similar in some ways.

Matthew

You got er Pontiac 🫡

Zach

Phenomenal episode I gotta watch the red shoes now. I watched this because I wanted to hear your take on perfect blue and I left wanting to watch the red shoes

Here, Try This

I don’t know how you can be practicing movie mindset without mentioning that the director of photography on all Powell-Pressberger’s Technicolor films, Jack Cardiff, was also the DP on Rambo: First Blood Part 2

Jacob Calcutt

I’m surprised you didn’t mention the funniest joke in the Red Shoes: when Grischa is practicing before talking to Lermentov after he fires Julian, he corrects the spotlight operator to keep the spotlight on him (“always on me!”) then when he’s clearly done practicing and talking to Lermentov, it keeps following him