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MM38 - 90’s Trans Representation feat. Louise Weard (Patreon)

Published:
2025-05-28 11:00:12
Edited:
2025-08-12 21:34:45
Imported:
2026-06
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Today Will and Hesse are joined by filmmaker Louise Weard to discuss two controversial 90’s films that bend both genre and gender: Neil Jordan’s The Crying Game and David Cronenberg’s M. Butterfly. We dive into the sexual politics, regular politics, and, of course, the famous twist. Join us as we answer the question once and for all: Are these movies transphobic??

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Comments

atatrs251

Pov: you are westerner

Nolan

Swag!

AllyBat

no silly we arent talking abt william wylers "the westerner" pls keep up!!!

Zach H.

Wonder how many reviewers at the time tried to check the ‘body horror’ box for Cronenberg’s adaptation of M. Butterfly?

Tim O'

Objectively untrue

Yairo Martis

Oh, John Lone is Ricky Tan from Rush Hour 2! And he was also a villain in a sci fi-ish blockbuster, in The Shadow.

Leebos

Great news for Jim Broadbent-heads

Tyler Hanel

“After the reveal we get to the meat of the movie”

Clark D'Agostino

This guy's face looks like someone put a hotdog and white bread sandwich in a panini press lol... also he appears to be litterally greek

Brent

Way to throw away the line Hesse

Scott S.

I remember picking The Crying game because I thought it was a badass IRA film and didn’t realize it was a trans-love film until the panty scene. Good film regardless.

Dongo

I really need to watch crying game now. I always thought it was transphobic and took cheap shots based on social mores of the time, but Will and Louise and Hesse’s description is really beautiful

nick

For more on Stephen Rea and his BPD Provo wife Dolours, her maniac sister Mary, their conflicts with various loyalist and British death squads (including one unfortunately called “the nutting crew”) and the many schisms and divided loyalties regarding religion, socialism, revolutionary praxis and reconciliation within the Republican cause, I strongly recommend that you read the book Say Nothing and not rely on the TV show.

Alec Gutteridge

I like how Hesse accussed Scar from the Lion King of sexual deviency - scar has gotten off too lightly for too long people need to start talking about this

eza

get Peter Vack and Betsey Brown on the pod

Ian Salyers

It was easy to identify the twist in the crying game for me but considering it was picked out by Hesse I had a hell of a hint. I'm sure my younger and stupider self would have been blindsided.

Benna

Said the Scorpion to the Frog, “I did what my body told me to, I didn’t mean to do you harm…”

Shiv

Haven’t seen The Crying Game since I saw it in the theater when it came out, and I remember loving Dil and definitely siding with her post ~reveal~ Glad Hesse loves it and can’t wait to rewatch with an adult brain. Fun fact: listening to the gang made me realize this was my first movie/TV show wherein in a character told the scorpion and the frog parable which has been in soooo many things since.

Shiv

It was on my list already but doubly so now (didn’t have a clue about Stephen’s wife or her activities)

nick

She did a car bombing in London that killed nobody, and she was at least complicit in the disappearance and murder of a civilian (Jean McConville) in Gerry Adams’s orders. The author believes it was Mary who actually did the murder.

Himbo Slice

I know you already did a billy the kid movie when you did Peckinpah but is there any chance you could do a Tim Blake Nelson episode and do 'old Henry'?

Hardcore Virgin

Along with randomly getting hit by a speeding truck or bus, a neck brace is usually fairly comical

Rory Schreiber

Props for reviewing The Crying Game without referencing Mayor Quinby

Doug Cartel

Would a Dil/Dilbert joke be rude or I just kinda make these reflexively

David Hughes

Hello from one of your 3 British listeners! You may be interested to know that I was hired to retitle the script which, at the time, was called The Soldier’s Wife. I drew up a page or two of potential titles, one of which was The Crying Game, as the song was directly referenced in the script and I thought it would make a great title. We were supposed to get a bonus if one of our titles was used, but the producer (Stephen Woolley) argued that since the song was in the film, it was too obvious a choice to qualify us for a bonus, and they refused to pay it! 30 years later I ran into Woolley and asked if he remembered that, and he said he did, and stood by his assessment! “Fun” fact: the film made huge money in the US but it was all Miramax’s money and Palace Pictures, the UK-based production company that had made it, went bust right before it won the Oscar and made Harvey Weinstein millions. D’oh!

David Hughes

PS this film should perhaps be considered in the context of Jordan’s (equally excellent) Mona Lisa, in which Bob Hoskins falls in love with a Black lesbian

Nicholas Needham

Love this episode but I felt like I was waiting for someone to bring up silence of the lambs this whole time 🤪

calvin kilby

they're saying this is the best movie mindset episode yet.

Brody Knaak

The crew this episode makes these movies sound incredible. Def gunna check them out with the wife

etienne

this Bernard Boursicot guy is a weeb on a level that might never even be approached

Michael S. Judge

The Jeremy Irons "Could a father not marry his son?" interview is SO funny, because on paper it's all bog-standard homophobic talking points, but with Jeremy Irons saying them it sounds like he's discovering a new dimension of carnal depravity in real time. It sounds like Jeremy Irons is alone on the moon, being ravished by visions of dog incest

Will

I want a Long Good Friday/Who Framed Roger Rabbit episode, where we have to confront the fact that Bob Hoskins may have been the best actor who ever lived

Jason Matthews

I didn’t think the bedroom scene in M Butterfly was racist at all: the point was that when Rene’s wife pantomimed the opera, he acts repulsed. Seeing his fantasy reflected back at him in this way makes it uncomfortably clear that it isn’t real. China for him is a kind of Zone where your projections can become real.

LEAH NELSON

Does Will have an English degree

Adam Foster

Regarding the image of Jody that Stephen Rea has in his head: Jody is playing cricket and bowling in that sequence, but particularly Jody is *spin* bowling, a style of bowling where the ball changes direction after it bounces (I guess kind of like a curve ball in Baseball) You can imagine the significance of this in a movie like the Crying Game

Nate Christy

My dumbass was confusing Ray Stevenson and Stephen Rae for a sec, muhaha

Jack

This is such an incredible pair of films to do, genius

bruce

indeed

Evan G

Louise was a great guest. Nice to hear some gentle disagreement and debate. Don’t get me wrong, I love Movie Mindset but sometimes it can be a lot of agreeing with each other and praising each movie, I like hearing some argument about movies sometimes.

Jimmy McMillan

What if Dill had a duck penis? Now that be a twist

Donny Topaz

I had never seen crying game before/didn’t know any of the cultural baggage around it I’m pretty much completely in line with hesse. I understand the guests opinion on it but going in and judging the movie just for what it is without the other buzz around it I didn’t see “the reveal” as anything special or a gag or something, I just sympathized with dil.

Max Fennig

I’ve never seen The Crying Game and I had it mixed up with Boys Don’t Cry and I was extremely confused when they started talking about Forrest Whitaker & the IRA