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Hinge Points S2E2: Get Outbreak feat. Alex Aviña (Patreon)

Published:
2022-11-24 05:01:01
Edited:
2023-01-23 21:28:14
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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Content

Matt and Danny invite Alex Aviña, associate professor of Latin American history at Arizona State University, to discuss the question: What if European diseases hadn't ravaged Native American populations after 1492?

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Comments

Bodie Tack

If the Spanish can't get a foothold in Caribbean then it's really a matter of which tribe / city state is the first to get access to European weapons first imo. As Spanish contact with the Aztecs showed these were organized and stratified societies with large and state-directed armies. No reason why they wouldn't use the technological advantage to project power. There's plenty of examples in our current timeline, e.g. the Iroquois.

MC Prescott

I’m a good little piggy, Long day waiting at the trough, And finally a got my slop

Unresolved Herald

Got an idea for an episode: What if Bach actually wound up killing that bassoon player?

original gay pussy eatah

What if Stalin had succeeded in executing the 50,000 senior most members of the Nazi party like he wanted to?

Toddy Todd

European too op needs a nerf

Ricky

Great guest

Daniel Hepburn

Sorry guys, but the idea that proto-socialism develops out of a quasi feudal/mercantile social structures doesn't make sense.

Hassan

That was a really great guest 👍🏼

Jacob Curley

Bring back the crazy ass intro music

Albin Irgens

Kim Stanley Robinson wrote a great book called The Years of Rice and Salt, where the Black Death kills 90% of Europe and the effects of that, great alternative history!

SF

Just came here to say this! A great, great novel. Profoundly moving.

Hunter Sentz

Had Prof Avina in undergrad for a class on Latin America during the Cold War and he fucking whipped ass.

Jon W

Waiting for some podcaster to release a rebuttal to these analyses and to title it Unhinged Points.

Of course

Only if it's Prager U ft extra special child actor Ben Shapiro: "PoCs didn't build Jerusalem or Athens, so no gain detected with your alternative trickery. Facts not feelings."

Patrick Jones-O'Brien

i thought matt might step in there to say it could be a bourgeois revolution, but i guess not. they couldnt decide if they wanted to do anarchist/bookchin wishcasting historiography or marxist wishcasting historiography.

Tam Mansilver

Europe without the great divergence probably gets dominated by the Ottomans, no?

Patrick Burke

Hell yeah this pairs well with holiday morning coffee-whiskey

Alex Stevenson

Can we get a list of the naltrexone history novels mentioned in here? Specifically the Inca reverse colonialism one.

Ethan Jones

God I love the art for this series

Munir hakim

Ngl I miss the old theme music lmao. The new intro is great though. Y'all fantastic and ily

Aaaaaaaaaaaron1

This one was hella cool. Alex is great, bring him back again sometime

Matt James Rich

If Jared Diamond doesn't die soon, could you get him on?

K H

It's interesting to think about, but I find long hypotheticals of the distant past tiresome. Too many butterflies. Each a Predator.

Valentino

Matt, Dan, What would North America and the rest of the world look like if Riel and the Red River Resistance succeeded in establishing some kind of nation state that was stable and could oppose/compete with the USA and what would become Canada? What is necessary for it to have succeeded? What happens immediately after its success? What are the long term consequences?

Rich G

New intro is cool but I still miss the old zany theme music

T

Please do a movie episode about Wakanda Forever with Alex and an expert on African history.

TugNuggins

I hope this ain't replacing the Thursday shows.

Elliot Matheny

Would love a full track of the original intro, song slapped

Epicfetus

i love it - these other dumb fucks can go listen to the adam friedland show

Alex Dima

intro is super annoying 😂

Ethan Jones

I got bored reading your comment might just be you

Quém é

Love it. It also occurs to me that the colonization of Siberia has pretty different roots than that of the Americas, and was as much about the fur trade as it was opportunistic land-grabbing from waning khanate power. Since China already had little incentive to move outward, the necessary and predetermined conclusion of this is establishment of a Californian Oblast.

Alex Stevenson

Sorry, didn’t catch that my autocorrect changed “alt” to “naltrexone”

A Loon

One parallel in this alternative of European/Turtle Island contact would be the Chinese diaspora in SE and S Asia. European refugees shelter across the Atlantic and grow into a commercial network that profits from the trade in resources and technology and forms the basis for an international revolutionary bourgeois class. Also, would like to see an expert opinion on what happens in West Africa without the supercharged slave trade. Perhaps the Songhai or others are able to form a power center to resist outside interference and rival or ally with Western Europe and/or the Ottomans.

DC

Three overlooked issues in the episode: 1- American silver from Potosí and elsewhere brought by the Manila galleons across was incredibly important for the monetization of the Chinese economy. 2- There were significant technological and agricultural differences between Mesoamericans and Andeans, and the nature of any contact, exchange, and conflict between those areas *could* have resulted in booming populations, urbanization, and perhaps even nascent industrialization. 3- Polynesian contact with the Americas is fairly well established at this point (not like what Thor Heyerdahl said though), which sewn plank canoe technology spreading in southern California and Chiloe island, not to mention the spread of sweet potatoes to Oceania. The implications of continued contact for American navigational capabilities are pretty great.

Alex Kramer

I didn’t catch all of them but that specific one is Civilizations by Laurent Binet

Adrienne Suydam

be the hinge point you want to see in the world.

James Murray

You guys should really do a hinge point where things go horribly awful compared to the way they actually turned out

Dan

FYI, Using "Turtle Island" as an indigenous alternative name for the Americas is reductive and essentializing. The notion that the earth is an island on the back of a Turtle is only shared by SOME of the indigenous nations of what are now the North Eastern United States and Eastern Canada, specifically Algonquin/Iroquoian peoples. Other aboriginal nations of the two continents have their own conceptions of what the land and the world are. There is a tendency to conflate all aboriginal peoples of the Americas together as "Indians", and even efforts towards indigenous representation often fall into this trap.

vermouth

ok we get it u guys think that the alternative to every historic event results in socialism. this is like reading new left magazines from the 60s lol

vermouth

but i still appreciate these

Khemith

Like what if Capitalism in America banned unions from the start and suppressed them lethally? Would it then become fascist in a way that it could not in this current timeline?

C. Ries

The Aztec counterpart of ayllu is calpulli and no the Mexica did not only fight to capture, they were perfectly capable of fighting to kill. The Spanish won because of Tlaxcalan support.

Max Barnett

My god Danny is annoying

parker

Tbf the conflict of people with assets and people without are common in world history.