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738 - They Smile In Your Face feat. Corey Robin (6/5/23) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-06-06 03:33:34
Imported:
2026-06

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Today we’re joined by Professor Corey Robin, author of "The Reactionary Mind" and "The Enigma of Clarence Thomas," for a conversation all about one of the most powerful reactionaries in the world: Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. We discuss the origins and contours of his conservative ideology, and how they reflect the development of race, class, law, power, conservatism and liberalism over his lifetime.

You can pick up "The Enigma of Clarence Thomas" here: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781627793834/theenigmaofclarencethomas

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Comments

Richard

Good get

Jim

Thomas is a Bush Sr. Appointee, not Reagan you ding dong, Will? *sigh* He replaces Thurgood Marshall after Marshall unexpectedly fell ill in ‘90-‘91, no?

Ian

Oh hell yeah

J. A.

Uh actually

Tyler Sutherland

Do they talk about Cornel West completely shitting the bed? Or Williams' campaign nosediving into a crash?

kenton

Harlon Crow of the Harlon County Crows

J P 3

The "hi tech lynching" line is classic conservative hyperbole. It's not unlike Stephen Schwarzman's claim a few years ago that a hypothetical Obama tax increase proposal of a few percentage points was similar to Hitler's invasion of Poland. These people want power and to also position themselves as victims who are beyond any kind of scrutiny or reproach. Utterly shameless.

Zachary Bills

I think he's referring to Thomas's appointment to chair of the EEOC.

Jeronimo R

This is some to shelf Chapo

Sean

Get your boy a better mic this was shit to listen to pumping that shit into my ear drums.

William

Nah this was fine, you’re just a cunt

Crosley Querin

I sense Matt has a twisted admiration for Justice Thomas. He's the most jokerfied SC justice in history.

JV

"He would memorise the Cushvlogs, listening to them on vinyl which is how people took those in back then."

Ben

This is fascinating

K H

Ah fuck they mean an actual professor not street professor. Very straight of you guys. So cool.

Slik Smoothie

Him being a black seperationist makes even more sense dumbasses like marcus garvey only went on to bring chattel slavery back to the african continent. Im sure Clarence is enamored with the concept of Liberia it very much tracks with the world view

dabbledogg

The idea that racial and or religous nationalism respresent some sort of left wing radicalism, is as absurd as saying that liberalism is a left wing politics. No marxian socialist would accept such ideas

Flesh Colored Subaru

Do the boys chop it up at all in this episode or is it just another guest monologue

Adam

I suggest a name for the futility argument: Bernie Pessimism

K H

Always one of you fuckers. Why? No one is getting different mics.

Major bit me

“Failure is not an attractive political slogan”

K H

This is why I tell people to stop trying to wokeshop leftwing branding. Defund the police, be gay do crime, whatever just say it as you mean it. Be sincere and your message will reach those that are interested in understanding it. You will never get an honest hearing from the sickos paying 1000s of dollars to grifters for trumpbucks or from Fucker Carlson. They will always twist anything, no matter how mundane into an epic biblical fantasy. Same with left/liberal tumblr psyop kids. Be sincere and you will resonate and harmonise. If you try and modulate to noise you will just have noise.

K H

Ma'am?

Doug Cartel

one through-line of this whole conversation is how people with opposite premises arrive at identical conclusions, and pursue opposite actions despite identical conclusions. Clarence agrees with Stalin that voting doesn't matter to poor people, then gives Jim Crow humpers a leg up because of his conclusions about abortion, etc. It probably sounds obvious when I say it, but so much screaming in the media and online is about political hypocrisy(which then segues into ideological purity and consistency debates), when we already have the phrase "politics makes for strange bedfellows" to describe the split between idealism and reality, where people who oppose each other end up pursuing a similar agenda or goal despite their hatred of each other.

Petrorenminbi

What I’m hearing is that Clarence Thomas is actually “woke” in the traditional sense

Petrorenminbi

He defeated duboisian double consciousness, you gotta hand it to him

NYCM&AHole

I hope you guys cover his overlap with the Franklin scandal and coverup

Rob

Matt definitely has a begrudging respect for those who pull back the curtain on political theater, even if they suck as a person.

White Wayne Brady

Clarence Thomas wouldn’t even be a thing if America paid reparations for slavery

Gnome Chomsky

You dumbasses will do anything to not admit anti racism will be the cause that will block socialism. Including rewriting history to wish away the conservativism of black nationalism. From the black caucus to Clarence Thomas, working class unity will be split by black leaders. That includes the ridiculous idea of reparations. Itll never happen and will always be a tool to destroy solidarity. Read Adolf Reed retard.

Aiden

You think that was bad? You should hear the grunts and squeals around the slop trough. It’s delicious.

White Wayne Brady

America owes payment to the descendants of slavery full stop

Sean

thanks 😊

Gnome Chomsky

Your morality doesnt actually make for real political change. Hope your ready to find a way to make the decision of whose a real descendant of slaves. ADOS is a anti immigrant and conservative movement. Race science for the left!

Gnome Chomsky

Also you have more in common with clarence thomas then you do with the historical left. You goals would be better accomplished supporting the nation of islam then socialism. Your politics are against solidarity and universality of international socialism. You in the end are for black nationalism, black capitalism. In the end you will see the working class of this country as the enemy agaisnt the particular group you think deserves more. No different then all the radicals who said Bernie isnt good enough on race. You will drive the wedge to weaken workers power. Final only retards say something like "full stop"

Evan Scott

even paying attention to maryanne or rfk makes you a mark

Evan Scott

or the peoples party or whatever it's called

White Wayne Brady

You’re getting personal and you don’t know me. Lay off the Black Rifle coffee

Gnome Chomsky

He will challenge and cure you retardation

Gnome Chomsky

Also Cedric Johnson. Both are marxist who challenge your shit. And to meet your reductive politics theyre both black! They check the list!

Post Void

Very interesting and balanced synopsis. Although one very touchy subject seemed to be glossed over.... [Preface: Planned Parenthood today, just as with many organizations has evolved. It offers life saving care in many facets and is invaluable to many] The debate surrounding Margaret Sanger and fellow Eugenics at the time, such as the Huxleys as well, shouldn't be road off as simply a conservative narrative. There are documentation that points to some deep seeded bigotry still apparent at the time, while under the ruse of social justice. The Tuskegee Experiments using free clinics is a prime example of this. Just seemed a bit odd that the professor didn't address this, where Will seemed to be hinting that there might be some merit to this debate.

Joe Warren

Totally agreed! The whole concept of the smiling liberal "ally" discussed in the first half really applies here as well. If we extrapolate it to the Democrats and their version of power(less) politics, it becomes very interesting to think about.

Broadway Joe

Fella, you can either convince people to come to your side or call them retards, but I don't think you're gonna accomplish both.

MLVF

Felix not asking a single question is 4 dimensional comedy

Allen

Fatalism is always the deathdrive to the left, Cornel west and marianne would be doing much more help if instead of presidential runs that went nowhere they and the rest actually put that effort into local races and building up the movement from the bottom-up

Isaac

white Black separatist Ginny Thomas

HarshMalarkey

Felix sat his white ass down and LISTENED

AbeLinkin

Most excellent and righteous ep. Not sure what to make of it all, though. Sure does seem like we’re fucked (and I know, that’s not a good selling point for the left). I think my new slogan is just banking on a miracle/aliens/communist AI/Christ to return to set things straight because we sure as hell don’t got it.

AbeLinkin

That’s a good point. Why aren’t they running for senate or a house of rep seat?

AbeLinkin

Probably was gaming

Jerry Cornelius

Adolph Reed Jr’s work in this area is my North Star, too. (Everyone should read his brand-new essay collection: No Politics But Class Politics.) But I want to encourage you to remember the advice of activist Lawrence Goodwyn, who said that the left must exercise “ideological patience.” The socialist left will always have to shoulder the burden of persuasion because we want to upend a vast, entrenched system of exploitation. If you want to build working class solidarity, why use belligerent language to correct one of your political siblings? Pointing out common cause with kindness can change someone’s mind, particularly someone who already cares about justice for oppressed groups. When you call people names, they will not feel they’re in the presence of a mentor. When your heart and mind are in alignment, anything is possible.

Julie Baxter

Ah, the O'Jays, who balanced out all those suspicions with "Love Train," which Clarence chose not get on board with.

I am become reply guy

I love Felix but his interjections during guest interviews never add anything

Michael

When it comes to the issue of political rights it’s interesting that Clarence Thomas and Ta-Nehisi Coates are basically on the same page. I remember a Chapo episode from way back in the day when they read Coates, who basically said being at a cookout at Howard amongst his people was more powerful than any voting rights bill.

Jerimiah

The US legal sysem is an embarrassment. No one should respect anyone involved.

Jim

That would make sense, maybe I missed that piece of the sentence? I knew he had some role in the Reagan admin & was close…

Chris T

Fascinating

A RHINO

It's interesting that essentially Thomas thinks racism solved if we just include black people in the upper echalons of the machine. Very baby brained stuff Clarence

Ardy Rezv

Is running in the people’s party for 2024

kee

He kinda doesn't think that, bud.

Ardy Rezv

The chapos only ironically criticize anything that’s not conservative. I’m ready to hear the 75th Rod article. Definitely nothing else going on in the world right now lol

A RHINO

You should listen to the podcast, bud

kee

I did. You fundamentally misunderstood what was said, heard what you wanted to/ what you could understand. Conservatism says that a high tide lifts all sails, not Clarence Thomas. Thomas, or so it is said, believes that black people cannot succeed within either a capitalist or democratic framework under white supremacy, what they can do under the former is accrue resource and capital to succeed apart or beyond white society.

kee

As far as including black people in the upper echelons of the machine for the mass benefit of black people, he is in vocal opposition to that.

james

Imagine writing a book on this lol

Chris

It doesn't really matter how accurately you interpret Thomas because he's not really an honest person and doesn't really give a shit either way. He is a baby brained man who like so many others, attempts to cloak rank contradiction and cruelty in some self serving pseudo intellectual framework.

Chris

They're both new age religious cooks. We're not allowed to have Fred Hamptons, we're only allowed to have heroes who don't know what they're doing or are entertainers.

Chris

Stop pretending to not be racist. If you think your ideas would endear you to the black left, I highly suggest pitching to them that they don't deserve repayment for slavery. See how that goes.

etienne

I just came back from a week road tripping in the US and if you tell me you genuinely enjoy highway offramp walmart parking lots you're a freak. I'm sorry I'm not going to pretend that your acre of asphalt filled with people who just want to get through their shopping to go die on a sofa and worry about getting stuck in traffic to go there is in any way charming. It's convenient, I'll tell you that, I got my best grocery out of a walmart, and famously they'll let you overnight for free, and I've done it, but it's not beautiful. Shut the fuck up

Peter Gorman

“I don’t stop until I know she’s sassified / And I can always tell when she gets sassified / Because when she gets sassified / She start calling my name / She say: Clarence Thomas Clarence Thomas Clarence Thomas Clarence Thomas oooooh shit Clarence Thomas”

Ross Moore

Clarence Thomas is evidence the 15th amendment was a mistake

AbeLinkin

This comment makes me a sad panda

Dick Van Sexel

I've always been a Backdoor Santa kinda guy.

Joe

One of my favorite interviews in quite some time. Great stuff.

nick

holy hell we need zizek on the show

K H

Good slop. I thought this guy would be a typical college lib bozo but he's actually pretty smart. I do think he gives Thomas a little too much credit as to being ideological as opposed to a sycophant, inspite of his own power.

Meatwad Cosby

May we all find our Ginny Thomas, boys.

kee

👎

kee

No, they discussed Clarence Thomas with Corey Robin.

Gordon Schmidt

One insane thing I remember about Virginia "Ginny" Thomas is the fact that a few years ago, she sent an email to Anita Hill offering her a chance to "apologize" for the "lies" she told about her husband. It's one of the worst things I've ever heard a woman did. The ideal situation would be if she finally snaps and kills Clarence and Biden gets to sneak another one in.

Christopher Price

So nice of Matt to lend Corey his old mic, but jokes aside a really good ep

Poppy Chulo

You can never be a fly nigga if you ask questions during opening arguments.

etienne

where movie ep

Steve D

I think the biggest, and most important question is - if you see the Roberts court as Tony Sopranos crew, who is Clarence Thomas?

Steve D

I say Patsy Parisi. Above all, a Company Guy with a cuckoo bird wife.

Heavenly Father69

What a liberal bitch fest about CT aka Dark Knight of the Soul Im not sure I get the point of this ep. Sounds like Clarence T. is smarter than all the bitch ass libs combined. I like the guy now. And I dont give a shit that he sexually harassed Anita Hill. Like it was a tragedy or some shit. Apparently second wave feminism trumps THE ONLY FUCKING BLACK MAN ON THE SUPREME COURT. Whit people finding reasons to bring down people of color for not agreeing with what they say think or do. That motherfucker gamed all of us. Hats off. Dude can have brunch with me anytime

Axel H.

Chapo listeners grappling with identity politics is always a sight to behold.

Michael

Who exactly are these Liberals you’re talking about? Because their weren’t any on this podcast.

krumping4

obviously feminism trumps them having a guy that fools idpol damaged libs

DotsTheHero

"anti racism will be the cause that will block socialism" Could you have worded that any worse? For many, the desire for socialism is simply the desire for fairness in the world. If you truly persuade these people that anti-racism and socialism are mutually exclusive, they won't give up on anti-racism, they'll give up on socialism.

Dan

Best episode in years. Kudos to Matt for stepping up and speaking this ep. Let’s see more of that.

Violet

Pretty sure you're not gonna find any wave of feminism that thinks sexual harassment is acceptable, dudebro. Because, you know, even when it is funny to watch the libs get hoist on their own petard, bodily autonomy is fucking important, if you're not a fucking chud.

Slik Smoothie

It’s crazy being black and still realizing chapo fans are never beating the racist allegations

sam handwich

did the voices make you post this

Ross Moore

She literally believes in Q anon. She's a dumb cunt

Ross Moore

In the episode they literally described leftists who said that their believes are impossible so they arent even worth trying @gnome chomsky

Ross Moore

Conservatives will play the race card as quickly as they accuse leftists of playing it constantly

jared k

Surprised you didn’t bring up that he met his wife through Larry king, the guy at the center of the Franklin scandal. It’s in the Nick Bryant book

The Children of Jack Acid

Just as we socialists can take the lessons of Marx and still reject his racism, anti-racists can take the lessons of black nationalism and reject some of its "conservative" (as you call them) components. There is no need to obscure history to do this. And besides, the history of black activism is not a monolith. There have been black activists who were socialists, capitalists, communists, libertarians, feminists, sexists, segregationists, anti-segregationists, atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, conspiracy theorists, realists, Republicans, liberals, monogamists, polygamists, pacifists, militants, lesbians, gays, trans, homophobes, pro-gun, anti-gun, and on and on. And you could make a similar comment about the Left, which has a broad enough tent to include Emma Goldman, Joseph Stalin, W. E. B. Du Bois, Ted Kaczynski, Angela Davis, Muammar al-Qaddafi, Frida Kahlo, and (maybe) Roger Waters. But we're all adults here, and we can separate the wheat from the chaff, right? So I'm not sure why you're so invested in hating on anti-racism.

Scot Forsythe

God what a misanthropic little nerd

Ardy Rezv

Remember when you guys had that guest on who laughed at the bud light boycott? Haven’t heard you guys mention that in a few weeks. I wonder why lmfao

Lydia Maria Child

Strongly recommend his book "The Reactionary Mind"

Eon Gattignolo

least favorite episode ever. guest had a profound lack of both curiosity and pattern recognition. matt and will's half hearted attempts at getting this drip to draw a conclusion were too little too late to make this interesting. frustrated and even more appreciative of movie mindset.

Alexandr

Uh. Why? Who are you, what point do you think you're making

Ardy Rezv

A long time chapo listener. Just having a laugh at all their wrong predictions recently. I remember them joking around saying a boycott like that was equivalent to smashing coffee makers. Also they swung and missed on that shooting in Colorado. Didn’t hear Will apologize for misgendering the shooter after his monologue. Not to mention they had a hilariously dead wrong prediction on Russia invading Ukrainian. Who are you may I ask lmfao?

Widdle Parker

Was I the only one who heard the 'sister on welfare' story and automatically thought...'why tf is sister on welfare?' Guess he got his 😒

Widdle Parker

the bud light protest is pretty silly tho and extremely easy to laugh at

Andrew Curtin

Enigma is such an ugly thing to call Justice Thomas, please.

Bill Crotts

Great episode, I learned a lot

veni

Banger ep, no-one minds the vegetable episodes when they're this good.

Ardy Rezv

I actually agree on the protest. I do think it was dumb for them to do the ad in hindsight. Just funny how the boys laughed it off at the beginning and not a mention of it since. Peace m8

Ross Moore

Treating token black conservatives like conservatives treat black people is hella fucking funny. Informing tokens that if conservatives get there way, their token asses are the first ones getting thrown into the gas chamber is hella fucking funny. Maybe showing the hypocrisy of tokens advancing policies that would get their asses genocided for their immutable charicsistics might make your average apolitical normie see how both sides aren't the same.

NYCM&AHole

It’s in the book, the Franklin Scandal. If I remember, Clarence Thomas was one of the few people who didn’t act like he never met Larry King

NYCM&AHole

(Franklin scandal Larry king, not the talk show guy in suspenders)

Keith Jackewicz

Robin is there to share the things that he learned in researching footnotes from Clarence Thomas’s judicial citations and footnotes. Not sure what you wanted him to say that you didn’t say, but I will say that Movie Mindset stinks.

Khaqan Ahmad

One of the best ep of all time, very fascinating and left a lot to chew on.

Stolzie

Like the Star Wars origin story. Lucas was 100% fixated on the death of the ‘60s counterculture.

MinkL0af

Excellent ep. I love the apolitical bullshitting eps as much as the next guy, but I have really been feeling the lack of substantive ideology/theory stuff for a while and it is giving the impression of the pod being mostly filler lately. I know it's not filler, but the people want more of this thinky type shit. Many are saying this.

abina

Great ep boys, bring more professors on please

Khemith

Cushvlog if you haven't.

MinkL0af

True. My concern with the main series specifically lies in the fact that I’m actually paying for it lol

Keenan Fitzgerald

Need the name of the mid episode transition song asap friends

Alice Pooper

Starting to think Matt just needs more stimulation. More guests like Corey Robin will do the trick

etienne

a little old lady saw the Bethlehem Steel merch t-shirt i got and told me in an aisle that one of her cousin worked there back in the days and is now dead. that's the kind of Real America™ moments you get at the walmart. it's cute but like are you *that* into it. common.

Eon Gattignolo

thank you keith. i guess say i didn't say explicitly what i wanted from mr robin, we can never ever know.

Carys Holbrook

Backstabbers- The O'jays. fyi I just googled the episode title

Coupcumber

Is a transcript available of this ep?

kee

You are stupid.

AKorgar

Can't believe radlib nitwits are still harping on leftists predicting Russia wouldn't invade, it's been nearly a year now and you're still trying to make hay from that? That's pathetic.

Ardy Rezv

Dumbass we were all wrong about that. The boys have had a lot of swings and misses lately.

Noctor

Drunk me, IE smarter me used this episode as a framework to re-evaluate Kanye after listening to his lines in “New Day” from the 2011 Jay-Z collab album Watch the Throne.