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I was glad that so many people were excited for Omnipocalypse last week. Work on that is still continuing, so let me talk about a couple design elements. One I think I have mostly nailed down, one that I'm still considering. Plus a surprise TLS section!

TLS 1.1.0

Since the release, I've been saying that version 1.1.0 would be the first with all of Chapter 4 illustrated, but it looks like I'm going to have to be flexible. Instead of waiting for that art to be complete, I want to get out a build that will bundle a few things: all reports up to this point, the updated Eustrin, and a newly improved fullscreen script that will need testing.

So that is happening, likely next weekend. It'll slow down Omnipocalypse work a little, but hopefully not that much. This way, everyone playing on Steam will get a more polished version for longer and there will be no pressure to finish TLS 1.2.0, which will be the hefty art update (though 1.1.0 will still include all the recently commissioned scenes).

Status Effects

These are a fun part of RPGs, but they're often not executed in a very fun way. You probably know the usual complaints: unnecessary against normal enemies, useless against bosses. Though I tried to do some interesting things within this framework for TLS, many of the same criticisms can be leveled at it. One thing I utilized even though I have mixed feelings about it is percentage vulnerability to status effects. It functions, but it leads to brute force testing: did poison fail to land because the boss is immune, or because it has 50% vulnerability?

I have in mind various solutions to the overall problem, but many of them require substantial coding. One of the things that made me decide to do Omnipocalypse is that I have a system that I can pull off now, using only my scripting capabilities and some plugins.

There are several components to this system, but it comes down to status effect combos. There are four "base level" statuses: opening, wounds, damage, and affliction. Enemies are either 100% immune or 100% vulnerable, and they try to follow clear logic: most enemies can take openings, flesh-like enemies take wounds, robotic enemies take damage, spiritual enemies take afflictions.

Once you land the appropriate status effect, it has a small effect, but the real purpose is to combo it into a better status effect. For example, you could land Damaged on a robotic enemy, then cause a status effect that reduces their armor. Not only does the second effect only land if the first is in place, the attack also deals more damage. This consumes the base status effect, however, so you need your party working together to burden a boss with various effects.

I hope this will balance the common strategy of "Don't bother with status effects just deal damage" via this system. Status effects are your best way of dealing damage, and in fact there will be cases where the status effects won't land, but you'll use the combos anyway because they're your best form of damage. This also ties into the time loop aspect: having more skills to combo with more characters can be more important to your strength than raw stats, or at least that's my goal.

Most of the system will involve the four base effects and their combos, but there will also be variations. For example, the weakest zombies can be pushed down with many attacks, stunning them and making them vulnerable to follow-up attacks. Hopefully these combinations will walk the line of being intuitive while also varied.

I don't know if I'm breaking new ground here, but I'm not modeling this off any successful system. No doubt there will be some wrinkles at first before the system is refined, but I think/hope it will be a good foundation for a game!

The LUK Stat

This statistic is notoriously nearly useless in RPG Maker games, mildly affecting a few things. TLS needed a special script to give it some actual weight, though that was just along the same lines as the default. For Omnipocalypse, I'd like to use this final stat for something else... and I'm not sure what. All the other stats are set, but this part is still default.

Critically, it doesn't have to be "luck" at all! I just have a stat built into the system and I want to do something with it. Definitely not influencing effect chances, because that won't exist in this system.

The best idea I have so far is to use it as additional damage when striking an opponent's weakness (skills have two different damage formulas). On one hand, this is just another damage stat. On the other, it would mean that we can entirely different kinds of high damage characters and you'd have another stat to consider among others.

I don't know, this part of the game could still change, but I need to decide soon because I keep building atop what I have. Anyone have opinions on this or other ideas? I actually considered doing something crazier with the six available stats before deciding that a more conventional set was still best... but I have one left over and I want to use it.

Comments

Mike Arlington

My take on status effects has been that: games are fun when you need to make interesting decisions, combat mechanics are usually a damage race (+ resource management when taken in the context of the larger game scope), and if players were only given "attack/defend/heal" as options there wouldn't be many choices to make. As a result, actions like status effects were created. But these had flaws like you noticed; if we're talking about something that deals damage like "burn" or "poison" then it just becomes a math problem to determine when the DoT will outpace the direct attacks. If we're talking about something like "stun", that's too powerful to apply to a boss the same as a grunt. It's a hard problem to solve. I think historically most of the fun for players in turn based games is more of the leveling/power fantasy aspect. My thoughts have been that the way to get interesting decisions in turn based combat is to have either the game state or the options available to the player change frequently so that the player needs to decide what is best every turn, preventing them from going on autopilot. I think that's one of the reasons games like Slay the Spire and other deckbuilders became so popular: your available choices were just different every turn (in addition to the enemy intents being shown), so it was very thinky for a turn based game. I think a combo system could be interesting, since it would fulfill the "game state changing" from turn to turn, but I wonder if it would still lead to the player performing the same static combos in most cases? As far as LUK goes, I tend to like luck based stats as "magic item find" type of things. Making them a meta-combat stat turns them into a risk vs reward decision for the player: Do I make the game harder for myself by focusing on increasing my rewards at the risk of my combat effectiveness or not? That would depend on whether Omnipocalpyse followed a different path than TLS though where rewards were generally fixed and there was no grinding. Crit-chance systems I think can also be fun for players. It's still a mathematical problem to solve (does focusing on LUK or ATK result in more average damage) but it introduces gambling-like variable reward systems which feed our dopamine seeking brains. If we're looking at an outside the box solution, maybe it would be worth considering the non-damage race aspect of turn based combats and make it so LUK impacts the resource management side of things. A high LUK character has a random chance of not expending MP when casting a spell for instance. But going back to status effects, I think that's why many games end up implementing the % to apply status effects. Not only is it a balancing mechanic (if the status effect is too powerful) but it's also a variable reward mechanic. "I can deal 40 damage or I can deal 30 damage and also have a 25% chance to inflict injury" can be an interesting decision for a player I think. I totally agree with you though that the obscurity of that when an enemy has a status effect resistance feels bad. I think that feel-badness could be mitigated though if it was just made clear to the player: when you target an enemy with a status effect inducing move, it shows you what % chance you have to apply it. Final Fantasy Tactics did this forever ago and I think FFT's "action prediction" where it shows you chance to hit/chance to apply status/damage to be dealt/etc is really one of it's unsung key features that made it so beloved.

sierralee

I agree you're right about part of the charm of deckbuilders being the constantly shifting environment! Taking that from a very different angle, Chained Echoes had a heat meter which was basically just an additional layer of randomness over the decisions you'd normally make, but still adds new factors to consider. There are only a finite number of skills in the game, so there will of course be some level of repetition in the combos the characters use. I hope that differences between enemy classes and different combat scenarios will keep things fresh, though. Giving the player full information about the chance of success would be another valid way to handle status effects, but unfortunately I don't think I could pull that off because it would definitely require a plugin. There are a lot of things I'd like to do, if only I had the resources. XD

Abso Haram

Sounds rad with a lot of room for cool gameplay (freeze allows you to shatter armor or limbs, affects accuracy, speed, or removes attacks; shock can cause tremors or incpacitation, or inflict burn; tear open armor, pour water inside and then freeze it to critically shatter; heat creates smoke and blindness, overheats components and so forth. I like the idea of removing immunities and such by inflicting debuffs that allow you bypass them (slice open the natural armor of a poison resistant monster and inject them with a toxin is v. clever) Would be cool if you could combine effects to create new elements, i.e. fire and elec create plasma, water and void create ice, and so forth. Given the game is built around inflicting effects, easiest thing to do with luck is increase the chances of inflicting various effects the higher it is, maybe with a tiered infliction system based off of luck stat. So with a higher luck you would inflict Shatter vs. Shear vs. Rend as a sliding scale of debuffs. You could make it so luck thresholds gate access to certain debuff combos as well as higher level debuffs. Plays well with what you described, your higher luck guys set em up and the heavy hitters lay em down. You could also have luck play a part in unlocking higher grades of gear, if you go the gear upgrade route. Renaming depends on what the vibe of the game is going to be. Gothic, medieval fantasy, sci fi, urban fantasy, Cultivation...? It's all flavor. Looking forward to it.

guillaume nguyen

Maybe the LUK could be applied as a variable not only on the fights, but on the events of the loop itself : more loot, beneficial random encounters, LUK based puzzles having increased winning probabilities, critical chances UP, etc. It would vary based on choices, failures/wins, previous loops, superstitions (black cat/ladder) and randomness (aka switches activations), allowing the stat to fluctuate rather than automatically increase. In other words, make the stat works like real luck rather than the useless stat nobody is sure what it does. You could even check it in-game via fortune cookies or something ^^ What do you think ?

sierralee

Ooh, removing immunities is an interesting concept! I don't see any way to get it into RPG Maker as a default mechanic, but you could pull it off in special cases with an invisible status effect, so it could be a good idea for bosses. I will definitely be thinking about this.

sierralee

Completely valid suggestion, though I want to emphasize that the stat doesn't have to be "luck" or anything similar! It's just a number attached to all characters.

guillaume nguyen

Of course, you could even rename it Plausability, ORV style ^^ (Omniscient Reader Viewpoint) Or maybe make it a 'good'/'evil' stat if there are multiple endings.

Lord Forte Games

A few thoughts for the luck replacer (since most people seem to be a bit stuck in the mental space of "some variant of luck"): Similar to what you said about "extra dmg vs weaknesses," if you in some way incorporated critical hits in a meaningful way, + critical hit damage can be interesting. This would probably only require light scripting. WoW has a "mastery" stat that does something different for each class (as an offhand example, one spec I play gets +x% Holy damage and + y% chance to deal extra damage with a certain skill based on mastery). I think it can be interesting in terms of adding a general "way to boost the specific thing your class does" while offering more differentiation between classes. This could probably be implemented by dmg formulas or ways to increase status application rates, etc. Another option would be "armor penetration," basically something that effectively reduces the target's def/mdf in calculations. Could be an interesting way to model different modes of doing damage. You could also make it a separate stat that governs healing effects, as opposed to having that be the same as your offensive stats. Could be interesting for making characters who can build in different ways. Anyway, no idea if any of these fit well, just throwing out a few thoughts I had (and giving some examples of the conceptual space for anyone else reading).

sierralee

Good suggestions, thank you! Some might not fit due to things I haven't explained here (this game will have much more limited healing than TLS, for example), but several of those are serious considerations for me. Definitely the sort of thing I'm hoping to think through here. ^-^

Patrik Schwaiger

The first thing that came to mind for me was a kind of "combo" stat. As you want to make a system that rewards skill set ups for status effects, this could allow a kind of character build that is made to be a Finisher/combo breaker type thingy. Alternatively, you could make the stat give a percentage for a small range of buffs/and or heals. This could make it another possible way to strech finite resources in a "loop". Though I don´t know if that kind of RNG depenance would go against the overall game design. Another Idea that I don´t know how realistically it would be in terms of code implementation would be a kind of "tinkerer/understanding/knowledge" stat that could make certain consumable items more effective: grenades etc. could do more Damage Tonics heal a bit more Status infliction Items gain a chance to inflict 1 stack/round more than normal Lastly, it could also count as skill check for in loop hindrances. In that case this would need to be a stat that is fairly baked into the different companions with few chances to be increased. We still don´t know how knowledge transference between loops works. If only the Main Protagonist has that Meta-ability you could make such things a Meta progression for first time clearance and then a temporary loop buff in further loops for for your "amnesiac?" companions. This would give a kind of late game strategy where you can start to stockpile certain finite consumables in a run that you previously had to use in earlier loops. Or even better/different effects for your items if you have enough in that "6th-stat". Could be both in combat or in world uses. Example: You find a hurt NPC and he needs a strong healing Item to survive. If you don´t give it he dies and a story branch is cut for that loop. But if you have enough of the of he stat you could instead use a lesser restorative item instead. This could potentially be pushed into a certain companion based direction. Where companions may have item restrictions?(again no idea how much coding this would require of if even realistic) The Main protag could be capable of using any type of item(or gains the ability to) but has baseline a weak "6th Stat" While others companions have a higher baseline "6th Stat" but are specialized. Example: You could have a mostly pacifistic doctor/Flesh Monster/Spirit healer which could use healing items very well but no offensive items, or a soldier/mechanic/robot companion that would function the opposite. This would also potentially work with skill barriers, making getting certain companions in a loop mandatory for certain paths until your main protagonist gains the necessary "meta progression" to replace these characters. This could be also a kind of storytelling element with the characters where your relationship is influenced based on the Main protagonists skill. Like the doctor treats you different if you are just another victim he has to take care of or if you are a fellow practitioner of similar skill and knowledge. I don´t expect anything to come from my rambling, I am just throwing ideas at he wall for you to look through. It´s just my two cents.

sierralee

I appreciate those two cents - I made this post to brainstorm about potential systems, after all!

Ark Tolei

I think a situational stat that interacts with specific combat situations is fairly good. Bane damage like you described is probably fairly easy to implement and creates a strong difference between rogue vs. warrior characters in terms of damage versatility. Another option that might be harder to code is to have the stat be more support oriented and basically impact the severity of the debuffs being applied by the combo system. They might not do more damage on an exploited damage stack, but they cause a bigger debuff to be exploited long term. I really enjoy force multipliers, and having characters that actually specialize in force multiplication is a huge plus in a combat system. If you're looking for an RPG that handled status effects really well, monster sanctuary has a really interesting combat system that might give inspiration.

sierralee

Good thoughts, thanks! Creature collectors are not usually on my radar, so I will have to add Monster Sanctuary to my list.

Rachnera

I'm curious about how often the "useless status effects" trope is played straight nowadays? Egregious examples I can find are either 20+ years old or retro games that are embracing this out of nostalgia. In the games I've played recently, they were handled with a mix of: Spam: Enemies have a certain number of points of resistance to each status. Each time you try to apply a status on them, it eats away some of that resistance until, eventually, it reaches zero and the status is applied. When the status wears off, resistance rises again to a certain value, that might be equal, lower or greater than its original value. This works well with stunned, staggered, compromised, any highly impactful status so debilitating both offensively and defensively it's worth focusing on a barrage of low-damage targeted blows to trigger it. In theory, that would make sense for poison too (need to reach a certain dose for effects to be felt). But I've never seen poison being implemented that way. Equivalence: Specific to damage over time (poison, bleeding, burning...) effects. Simply put, there are just treated as another source of damages, with damage formula similar to direct damaging skills, just spread over the courses of several turns. Puzzle: Enemies start immune to most status effects but can become vulnerable to them during the course of the battle. A classic is a boss being susceptible to something like blind only as they prepare their big attack. Another is an armored enemy being susceptible to "shatter" from the get-go but additionally gaining a vulnerability to bleeding once their defense is broken. Multi purpose: There are no "pure" status inflicting moves. Instead, each damaging move has the possibility to inflict certain status to certain enemies: light magic can blind, thunder can confuse, fire can burn, etc. Enemies in the early game tend to take massive damages from an element and also to be susceptible to the status associated with that element. For example, machines really don't like thunder and it also confuses them. That way, status effects are naturally experienced even with minimal strategy. Then, as the game progresses, you're introduced to more complex enemies, taking more damages from A but being quite vulnerable to the status of B. In the late game, truly weird shit can happen, like a bit of wind healing flame elementals but a lot of wind one-shotting them. And, of course, mix-and-matches of all those approaches. With the caveat that finding just the right balance for hints about vulnerabilities can be a nightmare. I'm looking at you near-invulnerable boss except for a specific phase when suddenly you can be poisoned.

sierralee

Either we're categorizing things differently or we're playing different games. We're in agreement that there are a lot of RPGs with good takes on status effects, but other than DoT, I don't feel that newer methods of making status effects viable have become the mainstream. I started giving some answers, then realized there's no point litigating the issue here. To just give a general answer, I'd say that the majority of Square-Enix's output isn't really using status effects. Even the tactically enjoyable Fantasian Neo Dimension didn't focus much of its strategic space on status effects. Instead, I want to approach from the other side: I think the "Spam" method is a good one, and it's one I hope to use eventually (I just don't have the code for it). However, the only examples I can think of right now are Cosmic Star Heroine and Chained Echoes. Is it commonly used in another corner of RPGs? If so, I'd like to know about them, because I think it's a fun system! That's how I see things, anyway. It's not that there aren't fun takes on status effects, I just don't feel like I see them all the time.

Rachnera

> However, the only examples I can think of right now are Cosmic Star Heroine and Chained Echoes. Is it commonly used in another corner of RPGs? If so, I'd like to know about them, because I think it's a fun system! FFXIII-2 (a terrible game for many reasons not related to its battle system) has a very straightforward implementation of it: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIII-2_statuses > Each enemy has a set resistance to each ailment that they are susceptible to, and every time the player's Saboteur casts the ailment on them, it lowers their resistance by a set amount until the affliction sticks. It's a simplified version of the FFXIII algorithm, where status effects sticking would also be correlated to the chain bonus, and thus indirectly to the enemy's elemental weaknesses. XIII is also famous because the Death spell can actually kill bosses, with a chance of success directly proportional to the number of status ailments the target is affected with (though this is mostly only relevant for ONE damage-sponge enemy).

Ark Tolei

I think atlus games still play status effects fairly straight and they're the most mainstream straight JRPGs I can really think of. Square-enix made a concerted effort to kill and replace the genre back in the oughts, and they bought basically everyone who makes JRPG's over that period. I think the mid-size indie scene tends to experiment, and obviously action-rpg's have an easy time implementing status effects. Break systems are pretty common and I think it's fairly common to just make status effects always work outside immunity to the element in question. This can be paired with enemies that flip around their elemental immunities during the fight. You're spending action economy on the status effect, after all. A core trend in the industry (including atlus) is to make the action economy of status effects more useful by tying them to damage dealing moves, particularly of a particular element. Poison has started being superceded by burn as a common damaging status effect, because it's so easy to tack onto fire attacks, while poison is a very unusual damage type. Making individual stacks fairly weak, but allowing them to ramp up (see burn in expedition 33, everything in monster sanctuary) allows status effects to contribute to inversing the difficulty curve of a battle, so that the setup phase is very dangerous, but once you survive the early parts and the enemy has 6 stacks of weakness and armor penetration you're safe as long as you don't get complacent enough to let your stacks fall. I personally prefer long battles to have inversed difficulty curves, but I also prefer that inversed curve to be tied to players setting up correctly, not the enemy itself getting weaker. I don't like having to restart a battle over and over to learn new mechanics in phase 6, but if I didn't set up correctly in phase 1 because I got cocky and phase 6 crushes me that's on me.

Trisk

I like the idea of that system. Both because it makes the status effects useful and because it sounds like it will give good feedback to the player showing that they're accomplishing something by doing combos. With big damage numbers at the very least. One of the problems with a lot of status effects in games is if they don't do something flashy, then the player kinda has to take it on faith that it's working. Like if you give an enemy a penalty to their chance to hit, but they they still hit with their next few attacks, it feels like your debuff didn't do anything.

sierralee

Interesting! I played XIII, but not the direct sequels, so I was unaware of that. Stacking effects are something that's interesting in theory, but I haven't really explored that possibility space because I don't have a good way of setting it up. You can make effects trigger other effects in RPG Maker, but it's cumbersome. Omnipocalypse will have a bit of a reverse difficulty curve, in that I expect normal play to involve stacking various effects on enemies, but between effect decay and other objectives I hope it will be more like an ongoing element of each battle.

sierralee

Most effects won't be too flashy, I'm afraid, but you'll definitely get the damage boost, so hopefully that will work out!

Ark Tolei

Maintaining the advantage requiring effort is good. I still remember the Kali fight in last dream on the highest difficulty requiring an absurd rotation of item and ability based debuffs and buffs when I fought her around level 50 for my second playthrough. I think I needed to drop her relative int and attack by an order of magnitude to avoid 1 shots.

DukeLeto7

Got an obscure bug report on Discord. "Wasn't sure where to put this, but I experienced a funny bug. I was going through the really long post-Stineford sex scene in Chapter 5, and accidentally clicked too fast, missing some text. I tried to bring up the log to see what I missed, but I did so before the current text box finished populating, and so the game decided it didn't like that very much and crashed. No idea if it's even a bug worth investigating, but thought I'd mention it anyway. Screenshot here of my terminal log. (This was done through Wine on Debian Linux installed on a Chromebook)" https://imgur.com/a/96Wg0fc Although the error code references Rachnera, they say the script in question was from Cyberforte or Lamsey. I actually have no idea if the setup they describe is supported by TLS and if the bug is worth fixing. (Assuming it can be replicated.) There's also something wrong with the Late Purchase of the Deeds of Vinario in the ledger returns, but I'm looking at that.

sierralee

Since this is the first I've heard of such an error, I'm going to hope it was due to Wine. Regarding this and any other bugs, it's too late to get them into TLS 1.1.0, which is coming out later today. But if you figure out the ledger thing in time for 1.1.x in a week or two, that'd be great.

DukeLeto7

OK so the line that says: " [791, 5733], # Vinario Kingdom negates Ledger Late Vinario Purchase" ...that was put in by me stupidly to prevent it from displaying if you bought the deeds in Ardford, but 791 also gets set on permanently if you buy the Deeds in Conference Chamber. It needs to go. It would definitely keep the line item from displaying all by itself, I think, but the item is STILL not displaying in the returns after I remove it. Everything else appears to be in order with the code. I'll loop in Cyberforte when I get back from a social engagement, assuming I don't figure it out in the car.

DukeLeto7

OK, Cyberforte sassed it. What's happening is that RPG Maker's engine is sprinting ahead through the game's event logic while the script is still running. 14: Third Arclentian War/Aftermath/Throne Room (2nd) (0,0) Page 1 is where we're having problems. It seems to be executing the show_returns(3) script call, and then saying "I'd better get ahead of things and get those next couple lines of code done. What's this? Turn off 5733? OK, I will, now to finish displaying those returns!" Cyberforte added a "Wait 1 Frame(s)" event before "Control Switches: [5733: Ledger Late Vinario Purchase] = OFF", and that stops it from doing that. That and the abovementioned removal of the 791/5733 negation will fix the bug. I also tested if the one off returns for the post-Gawnfall economic bonus are working right using one of Grim's saves, and it is, but just to be doubly sure I'd also add a frame wait to the line before 5734 gets turned off in: 16: Stenai/Mana Forest/Stenai: Teleportation Site/Stenai: Teleportation Site (008,006) {Esthera} Page 3.

sierralee

Message me the solution on Discord, please. Don't want to be jumping between too many discussions here.

DukeLeto7

Oh, sorry. Was told by another user on Discord to report things here instead of tagging ya there.

sierralee

I overwhelmingly dislike bug reports in Discord channels, where they end up scattered and buried, but private messages are fine.

KlaashD

From my understanding, luck primarily affects the chance of inflicting status effects and their duration (This is from MZ though. I'm not sure if this applies from other engines). I'm not sure if this helps at all, but from my game, all of my moves have a chance to inflict some type of status affect on some level just so that it does not feel cheap or LUCKY. You know so much more about RPG Maker than I do, so I dunno aside from that. I also decided to add passive effects like 10% increase in HP, Luck, Attack, etc since at that point of the game, my character cannot level up until the next chapter, so I have been coming up with other in game ways to get stronger. I also have it set up so that her base moves get upgrades. Slash through becomes Fire Slash through. Jump Slash becomes Thunder Jump Slash. Her limit (maybe) has five additional hits. Etc. Basically, with how my system is, there is a limit in the amount of pretige (gold) a person can get in each chapter. They use that prestige to buy weapons and armor. These weapons and armors have special affects and can grant unique moves. In the post game, depending on how you play your cards and budget, if you have bought all of the items, the item's effect, essentially, gets assimilated into the main character. as the cost of them losing that weapon/armor. (The game I am making is very subversive in that you play as a Monster against corrupted heroes with the Chosen One being the main villain. So it is a full party against one, the main character).