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I have an update with another important question for the next TLS release, but first indulge me in a report about this week.

Reasons why Sierra is exhausted:

1) Overly ambitious goals: 20%

2) Too many projects at once: 5%

3) Community management: 3%

4) Realizing she forgot something from the previous post: 3%

5) Human beings exist and she has to deal with them: 68%

6) Making sure the fake percentages don't come out to any 69s: 1%

Optimizers, casual players, and doomrunners alike: how are you feeling about total ProN vs total investments as of Megail's final income statement? This is one of the things that has varied most from original designs, due both to new additions and more aggressive investment plans than I modeled.

As with the entire game, my hope is that players will need to make strategic decisions about how to invest. People who have been relentless about optimization should be rewarded by not having to make too painful of decisions, but I don't want it to be possible to just buy everything. How does your save match up to these goals?

EDIT: To be clear, I am not revisiting the entire game's balance at this time. I'm interested in how people feel about the amount of ProN they have left at endgame versus remaining investments.

Depending on overall responses, I may add or tweak some final investments. But after the upcoming update, no more investments, only consequences of those decisions.

Comments

ThomWithAnH

I refuse to sell my vineyard stock and I need to know in terms of ProN how much my HODL was worth.

SantaTheHutt

Sierra Lee spent 69% of her time dealing with human beings and making sure there were no 69's. Giggity.

WaxerRed

Sorry you are feeling exhausted SL, I hope you are able to get some rest soon! For my ProN I’m fairly happy with how I ended up. I did my best optimize, though I did make some slight differences from the norm (I save Carina’s men, gotta support da boys) I was able to hit most of my goals, I skipped a few “business” investments, but got most of the “altruistic” investments. Though I did realize I missed the chosen defense in base. I’m waiting to see if that one is critical enough that I need to re-invest, or if the other base defenses and upgrades are enough to survive without the need for it.

Barissia

IMO the only real way to make it fair for the optimisers and also not brutal for casual players is introduce a pity mechanic for pron, I don't know how you would do it without significantly nerfing the early investments though since those are the painful waits for ROI. Yeah I can see why you're pulling your hair out over this...

McLovin

Well, with multiple playthroughs and checking different options, I would say, it could be a bit more generous. I felt like it will totally screw the playthrough if i don't try to optimise the shit out of the finances and try to figure out the very best "i should totally invest to these financially lucrative stuff and possibly I will be able to get a little better outcome. It is good, that you have to make some difficult choice, and can't have everything, however a little bit more wriggle room would be totally okay, and so you yourself (the player) could also be a bit more generous with the good samaritan options beside the financial focus. Don't get me wrong tho, I really enjoy the ProN management aspect of the game. I'm still thinking about starting a new run with some possiblybest/optimized outcome, just don't know if i should wait a few updates beforehand for the rework/ adding new options stuff.

sierralee

I actually have an idea in mind for this! I intend to add it after the conclusion and before the main release, though. For this reason I'm mostly interested in balancing for the range from good to optimized.

McLovin

You mean like, certain investment options being a bit more lucrative/ costs a bit less? Idk, fully random example. The secret tunnels which could connect New Givini with other territories cost 950k instead of 1 mil and such? Yeah, this could potentially be a "nuisance" to review hehe.

Runcible Technician

On my casual run investing is essentially guessing. It's perpetually half of what an optimized run has or worse so... do whatever? It shouldn't make a difference?

McLovin

This also potentially answered my below thoughts on whether should I wait a few updates before starting a new playthrough. I want to get back into it and I miss mah gals, but probably waiting a few updates would't be a bad idea

Edward Culham

The way I have felt about the investments, especially when entering chapter 4, is that have to be more focused on the greatest growth in amount of Pron you get, rather than being the greatest benefits for other things. I mean it is a great decision maker technic, but also feel like it would mean that people don't see certian scenes in New Givini, Turok'un and others as are usually spending the money to increase money to do more investments. As for really early game, I also felt that were pushed into things that would give greater benefits long term, after all investing in the yhillian bank as a small lender and not reinvesting in chapter 2 leads to not getting anything from it, for the investment returns in chapter 3 or the first one in chapter 4. Although it is optimized to do so, felt that it was wrong that couldn't get any further benefit. Also getting rid of the bank clone, prior to doing the second investment also feels wrong. But that could be my opions as now are rulers in the country and must focus on what is best as well.

staubgeist

I can so relate with number 5

lostone2

In my mostly optimized playthrough I only have to skip one of the biggest investments in the range of 750,000 to 1,000,000 ProN. I'm not sure in how you should manage that but both Augmentic and everafter (neither are patrons) will be able to give you precise numbers as both are very well regarded in the optimizers sub-community in the Discord channel. I feel that someone should nominate them.

Dubsington

I'm a completionist, so I tend to think of investing as "trying to avoid being punished [locked out of content] for not correctly guessing stuff." It's very frustrating, to be honest, and I end up cribbing from the wiki rather than roleplaying, I never have anywhere near enough money to buy the high end options (opening that big vault thing, for instance, or anything else in the millions). I realize that this is very realistic, but I'm not certain if "investing is risky because you don't know what is going to happen" is the aspect of real life I'd like brought over into gaming. TLS is a completionist's nightmare, I know that, and I probably just need to accept it. But since you asked, my answer is that I find investing in general to be fascinating but deeply frustrating.

Panslothda

To be honest, i love the game and especially the lore. But i can never be bothered to optimize and i want "best" possible outcome. Hence i always cheat i. poN to get all investments always.....

Lamsey

Most optimisers say that hiring a mercenary company before leaving Yhilin for the first time (a.k.a "saving Carina's men") is a catastrophically bad choice, and it's definitely difficult to get optimal results even though it's what my Simon would do. That means I'm still some way short of being able to afford many of the more altruistic choices, and I have to wait a long time before unlocking some of the less vital options. I do still manage to get most of the really important things in the nick of time, though. It might be an idea to ask people to upload their Calculator saves so you can see the path they take and the amounts they end up with. Mine has a couple of mistakes and it's a bit of a mess towards the end since I've been prioritising testing ability over optimisation in the latter stages of my current run, but it's here if you are interested: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/apxn3o9658pa86q4442fs/lamsey-playthrough.json?rlkey=fmk3w1s7tbojw8lb69qia25v2&dl=0

sierralee

I'll talk about it in full later. The changes I'm referring to won't be relevant for a while - the next likely shift will be with the Vhala update.

sierralee

I probably do need to get into that level of detail eventually, but for now I'm hoping for a higher level overview. Appreciate your thoughts, though.

Ark Tolei

I created spreadsheets for significant sections of the game, including the investments, so I had a fairly good amount of ProN to throw around. The way I would describe my endgame situation is definitely "rich enough to not pay enough attention and likely make costly errors". Since you've specifically noted that this isn't about balance for anything other than endgame finances, and I still haven't locked in my final investment decisions in this section, I will just say that the trend of the financial situation getting more and more relaxed as the game went on continued to the final investment cycle, but I do not have enough to actually get every investment. The general vibe I got off of some of the endgame investments was that several of them were very expensive for fairly minor returns, both in-universe and mechanically, but without having invested time into creating spreadsheets for it I wouldn't trust my memory.

Warstrike

I just had a thought. Investments were what drove me to the wiki and then the discord. I was able to do ok with the wiki and then fully follow optimized when I joined the discord. What if, since we have an economic advisor anyway, we have the option of having Megail give us a summary of her thoughts (yes/no/Megail/leave)? Nothing exact and I know we hear from her when we are finding out about the investment in the first place, but they all have more or less her stamp of acceptance at least. Also it can be a while between the conversation and the decision. I was thinking something simple to help sort likely good/ok/weak investment prospects without being too explicit.

Decarabia

As a casual player, on my first run I felt "drained" at endgame due to the feroholm investment. Also good luck dealing with people!

Decarabia

Maybe some exclusive (good) investments for players generating less than X amount at certain times. Not strong enough to catch up to optimizers, of course.

sierralee

Yeah, that's basically the plan. I think it could easily work in-world while also tightening the spread of likely outcomes.

Dragof2

I am pretty darn happy with the Pron balance. I play optimized-ish (I make my decisions with a wiki open in the other window). I like that you never have quite enough Pron to buy everything that it is important to have. It also creates a dynamic i love, where some big investments are things that the people really want, but really don't produce a big enough benefit to be worth it. I always appreciate games that demonstrate why policy isn't always perfect (beyond politicians being goobers). I do think a little bit more info would help with keeping people away from a wiki on their early playthroughs (it doesn't have to be perfect, but making financial decisions is borderline guessing without one).

Decarabia

Sorry for bringing up in this context, but I wanted to report something that just happened. I have dominated Varia. I'm on chapter 5. I already have Wynn on my harem. When I was going to forge Varia's custom blades, in Yhilin, the dialogue assumed Simon was still mad at Wynn (Varia asked if it would be better if she spoke to Wynn, since he's "mad at her"). I received the items, but the flavor text felt inadequate.

sierralee

Seems that conversation wasn't set up for different circumstances at all, and has apparently not been revisited before now. More dialogue for the anger variable, dialogue for happening after the war, alternate Wynn/Varia dialogue during the creation itself...

Barissia

Fair, just keep in mind the sampling bias that comes from asking turbo nerds like us who've followed the game for years about balance!

Barissia

I just had a really interesting idea, maybe you could add the ability to talk to Meghail in each investment round asking for advice on which 3 investments in the round have the best ROI? that way at least you're giving some hints to new/casual players without taking away their agency over the decision

DankPotatoes

On an optimized playthrough, the stuff I've got left un-invested in chapter 5 totals about a million Pron in value. So I'm pretty damn happy with how it all turned out :)

Cato

I didn't finish my second playthrough yet so I cannot give any numbers, but I fully agree with Dubsington.