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Dr. K (Part 2): Rhetorical Judo Flips (Patreon)

Published:
2024-07-07 22:38:33
Imported:
2026-06
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  • Dr K P2 (PF).mp3

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Content

Join Matt and Chris as they continue to navigate the complex and occasionally controversial world of Dr. K in this multi-dimensional second episode. This time they take a look at some more recent content and consider whether they were wrong to identify Dr. K as such a strong advocate of Ayurveda. To do so we look at the science of visualisations, some updated genomic information about the Doshas, and the power of mantras to bend the universe.We also look at the lively discussion between Dr. K and another famous YouTuber, Dr. Mike, which illustrated some classic alternative medicine debates. The episode explores themes like the power of consciousness, personalized treatments, and the placebo effect. And as a result, it ends up, as it always does, with Chris and Matt politely discussing their disagreements about the mind and the mystery of subjective experience... sorry!

So join for a thought-provoking ride through scientific criticism, holistic practices, and the age-old East vs. West medicine debate as we decipher whether Dr. K is a modern-era internet sage synthesising a new approach to therapy or just a charismatic storyteller and alternative medicine advocate.

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Comments

Ryan Booker

Ha. Loved the chat at the start. I don’t remember which one it was, but I recently had to take a Corporate Astrology test. 😂

Saladus

RCTs don't exist in a vacuum. There's a long process of testing a treatment on an individual or a small group of people to testing on a moderately sized group to performing an RCT, or something like that, which is basically the "better" way that Dr K thinks ayurveda does things. Furthermore, the point of RCTs is to remove the effect of individual circumstance, not the individual itself, whatever that means. If a treatment is shown to be effective in an RCT, it should be effective - within some bound - for the general human, not just the average human, again, whatever that means. Not that Dr K would care about any of this since he's married to his position... I'm just allergic to strawmen.

Ymirsdreams

My chakras are aligned, my play back setting is at x8 speed, my Oxford Book of Rhetoric is open, and my sex life is arid. I am ready for the odyssey!

aneladgam_varelse

It’s kinda mind blowing that *psychiatrist* is so hang up on Mayers-Briggs, of all things from psychology

aneladgam_varelse

Some covers on Russian tanks in Ukraine are so insane that I highly doubt these help drive tank better

Ryan Booker

I have to say, I dislike this guy a lot.

aneladgam_varelse

very basic hygiene = understanding microbiology is like 1 year streak at duolingo = language proficiency

Aaron Holder

Thanks boys. I used to think that I was carrying, I don’t know, 70 or 90 dhoshas simultaneously. Now I know that I only have 3, but I am reassured that I don’t have to collapse them all into a single, master dhosha.

Tobbe lobben

What did I just listen to? Why would anyone want to listen to this? Why would anybody think there is anything to this crazy persons rants

Emma

Dr K reminds me of one of my old friends. In fact so much so this is almost a bit triggering for me. She was the most argumentative person you ever met. So she would often pick ridiculous positions for no reason other than to be contrary. And then once she started arguing she would shift her position constantly and absolutely refuse to admit that she was doing so. So it did have a bit of a boxing w shadows quality as Matt described. She also had a lot of other sort of dishonest arguing techniques because her only interest was turning everythink into a competition and then she had to win at all costs. It was incredibly frustrating and was part of the reason I eventually cut ties w her.

Ethan Milne

7 hours of doctor K content… you treat us so well

Níall

Oscar worthy performance from the Mattrix at 18:20

Adam Sher

For the Doctor Mike, Dr. K part, it seems like DR. K wore Mike down. By the end, they somehow agree on Ayurveda (99%)? That seems like a shortcoming of long form interviews and not being familiar with the topic the guest is speaking on.

Linda Sears

Does the genomic evidence Dr K brings up to explain the doshas correspond with lineage selection evolutionary theory as presented by Brett Weinstein? I could see how those two could work towards a truly revolutionary, galaxy-brained approach that will redefine human medicine and evolutionary biology.

chuckboy

I am a yoga teacher who’s undergone a lot of trainings and I have to say that all of Dr. K’s points come directly out of “Yoga World”… it’s also very common in this sphere to retrofit (a basic/incomplete understanding of) scientific progress and discoveries into Vedic models and use that as proof of some kind of divine wisdom of the yogis. Listening to his content gives me the sense that 99% of his talking points come directly out of 200 hour yoga teacher training and it’s unclear to me if any of it truly arises from his advanced study of psychology. Another common “Yoga World” trope is leaning into Orientalism and leveraging Indian/South Asian identity as a verification of authenticity whether or not the speaker is bringing any insights into the conversation that could not be easily found in a training manual. Same with leveraging advanced/unrelated studies (in this context, psychology). Very interesting … it took me back to the heady days of training as a teacher and feeling as though my yoga school was helping me unlock the secrets of the universe for the low low cost of $3000 USD.

aneladgam_varelse

I wonder how dr K will score on the gurumeter, because he seems to be most guru of them all. We need to rely on objective measurements to overcome bias.

trol

Four hours about a guy I barely know and already can't stand, yet can't wait to listen. Thanks guys.

Ben Godek

Citing one successful person who swears by an esoteric technique is such a basic mistake that it should make anyone suspicious of Dr. K’s reasoning. Also, to be fair he should read out one of Arnold’s workout routines from his prime. Visualization is attractive because it seems like a shortcut, but I’m guessing his audience would be less enthusiastic to hear that they have to do a million bicep curls to be successful in life.

aneladgam_varelse

When dr K asked in therapist voice “what frustrates so much about Ayurvedic medicine?” I instantly became angry, from 0 to 100%

aneladgam_varelse

Dr Mike probably is so close minded because he’s kapha

aneladgam_varelse

There is already thought-to-audio device and I find it scary af

Andreas Singer

Dr. K's level of motivated reasoning is impressive. Even Bret Weinstein could learn one thing or two from him

Soapy Dishwater

Just got to the judo flip. The switch to therapy talk is so obviously manipulative listening to it like this, but if I was in Dr. Mike's position there's no way I would pick up on it in the moment. Also, the shadowboxing and judo flip analogies are NOT helping with the anime version of you guys and the gurus I am creating in my head. Now I can't help but imagine Dr. Mike just throwing punches at a smiling Dr. K standing with his hands behind his back, hitting nothing but air, as they both teleport around all over the place. Dr. K would have a special move like 必殺技：「Therapy Language」 or something

brownie

Didn't help to learn Dr Mike an osteopath.

Randy

Took a break from listening to read an article about posture in The New Yorker. This part seems vaguely familiar..."any of the photographs in question were taken and held not by the institutions themselves but by the mid-century psychologist William Herbert Sheldon. Sheldon was best known for his later discredited theories of somatotypes, whereby he attributed personality characteristics to individuals based on whether their build was ectomorphic, endomorphic, or mesomorphic."

peta austen

these two guys voices sound too much alike

Nancy Hale

Come for the Dr K decoding, stay for the consciousness debate. Thanks for keeping that bit in, guys!

jodcr

Dear god, four hours. It took me all day to get through that.

Purple_polish

I think Dr K is definitely my least favourite guru, tied with Scott Adams. When he pulled the weaponised therapy speak because he couldn't make a decent argument I was thinking just wow. We're doing this now? What a self righteous petulant little man, peddling an outdated belief system. I am looking forward to the gurometer episode though!

Tim Tripp

Dr. K would make a good used car salesman. Dr. Mike came in looking for a nice cheap car and left with a Cadillac after Dr. K got through with him.

Ben_

The problem with consciousness debates seems to be that there are two distinct definitions of consciousness at play. One is about the problem solving and decision making qualities of the brain, which we can measure, and the other is what it means to have subjective experience, which people like Chris and Daniel Dennett seem to reject as a separate thing. My favorite way to think about the separate problem of subjective consciousness is to note that we can perfectly describe the thoughts, the inputs, processing, and outputs, of you, but we can’t describe why you are experiencing the universe through your brain and not someone else’s. What does it mean that you are a specific subjective experiencer floating through the universe? It seems to me that this question can never be answered by descriptions of brain functionality, though I’m open to being wrong.

PaulBFB

Thank you for your sacrifice. What a uniquely annoying little man that is. HUGE missed opportunity in my book - when Dr K did the Judo flip and asked Dr Mike "why does Ayurveda frustrate you" I was just waiting for Dr Mike to ask him the real question: "how do you justify believing in ayurveda but not in zodiac signs, homeopathy, spiritual surgery or traditional Chinese medicine?". I would've loved to see the answer here... PS - I felt like he keeps hamming up the Indian pronunciation and playing into the exoticism which feels annoying

brianshmrian

I lost my sense of smell once, and when it came back coffee smelled completely different to me (and all roasted smells actually). This persisted for a few months until I read about people recovering their old sense of smell by intentionally trying to remember what the old scents were like. So every day when I made coffee I would spend a little time just smelling it and recalling the old, better coffee scent. This seemed to work to restore the old qualia. Of course this could all come down to olfactory neurons being damaged and then rewired, but it would be an interesting experiment to measure people's brain activity in cases like this and see how subjective changes like this manifest in neural activity. All this is to say that one person's experience of some sense is not necessarily the same as another's, though presumably with enough measurement we could detect what causes the difference. However, if we didn't have a first person subject who could report the experience we wouldn't know what it was like to them. Ok I'll stop writing now.

brianshmrian

About placebos... Isn't a placebo treatment used in a study because researchers want to check if some other aspect of the treatment (e.g. taking an inert pill) affects the outcome? Otherwise studies would just compare treatment with no treatment, right?

DavenPsych

At the end of the day, it seems that Dr. K’s varying presentation of the validity around Ayurvedic approaches reflects his need to be in control of the conversation and have unique understanding of ‘special knowledge’ which lends him an aura of prestige. It is hard to pin him down, and when Dr. Mike starts to get him pinned against his own arguments is when we see the weaponized therapy technique from Dr. K that totally flips the tone of the interaction. The uncomfortable feeling that gives me is reminiscent of the interaction between Dr. K and his wife, such that he utilizes therapy speak to gain control of an interaction when he feels diminished. Maybe it’s just me, but his tone of voice and speaking style makes me feel he is often holding back a simmering anger just below the surface. It all seems to boil down to control.

Isaac Rosenberg

Oh my god this is so fucking painful. Easily the most obnoxious series of episodes ever - which is saying a lot with Weinstein and Peterson being on the show so often… and there’s another episode yet to come!

cd

smashing didactics, thank you, decoders!

Joe Romel

Got my shoutout and he’s like “Joe Ro(animal noises)mull” 💀

Idan Ca

But … but… it starts from the individual!!

Daniel Richards

The rhetorical judo flip is bad enough, but completely bamboozling Dr Mike for the 90% is crap thing even though Dr k said it is truly startling, really awful behaviour.

Idan Ca

I’ve got 29 minutes left in the 2nd dr k ep and I raise my dirty white flag in surrender. I cant listen to even one more minute of this smug sophist and his, by now, transparent rhetorical, juvenile tricks. I wouldn’t buy a used pen from this slimey mf

aneladgam_varelse

Can someone disarm trap of east vs west framing by ridiculing idpol?

Jason Trock

western “precision medicine” shouldn’t be given any kind of pass. It is much more successful as a marketing and funding tool than actually producing consistently better patient outcomes.

Paul Bowman

Yes, Dr K is a skilled rhetorician. But not in the Destiny way - which is more like Shotokan Karate. Judo flip is the right analogy, because Dr K's mastery of rhetoric is focused on Kairos - "In rhetoric, kairos is "a passing instant when an opening appears which must be driven through with force if success is to be achieved."" - i.e. switching movement, back, forth, sideways, diagonal, until you sense the opponent momentarily lose their balance - and then the momentary opening for the throw, which must be seized at once. Dr K has the backup of clinical psychology and therapy as well, to pile on top of his rhetorical kairos-jitsu. Poor Dr Mike never stood a chance... Dr Ks technique of switching the push in different directions to take the balance of the opponent (and to Dr K, EVERYONE is an opponent, even his own wife, if his paranoia detects a potential diss) is interesting in that its a good example of Klein's "diagonalism". He's taking a trope from the left, and a trope from the right and then a trope from the centrists and then back and forth, side to side you go, until you put that foot wrong and... ippon! From the left he takes the anti-eurocentrism/decolonialism thang. Western "axioms" have colonially disparaged Eastern axiomatic systems (all axioms are equally apriori, dontcha know...). If you diss ayurveda, it must be because you're a racist, and no one wants that, surely? From the right he takes neoclassical methodological individualism, ideologically generalised as "neoliberal" libertarian individualism. "Western medicine" and its population studies? That's the oppressive crushing of the Ayn Randian individual under the collectivist knout. And then, when your uke doesn't know whether to brace themselves against being pushed from left or right over the mumbo jumbo, hit them diagonally with the "of course I'm a normal sceptical scientist, who believes in evidence-based medicine. I'm not lying, my nose is always this long...". Seriously, what a shtick. You gotta admire the waza. The man is Godan, at the very least. On the consciousness stuff, I have one word - synesthesia. Ofc you can map the optical receptors and see that bit of the percept. But what about the music and the colours synethesiasts see? Beyond the quibble, Chris is too quick to do the Officer Barbrady shutdown ("Move along, nothing to see here!") on this question. And its one that requires far more inquiry than you're going to get with that attitude. And that's even before you get to the qualia level hard question of consciousness. But on the weaponisation of the consciousness question by woo merchants, people are woefully under-educated about science in general, imo. How we build causal models, and how those models are a map, not the territory. Above all, the difference between causal models and the messiness of real world causation, summed up in the word overdetermination. Yes, many real-world phenomena, like consciousness are overdetermined, which means playing the game of "what causes that, and what then caused that" is a losing game for anyone trying to answer, who doesn't understand the terrain. But that doesn't mean that there are any answers outside of scientific models. "Your approach has limits" - true. "Therefore there must be room outside those limits for our approach" - actually no.

Linda Sears

The main reason Arnold Schwarzenegger became the governor of California is because he was a well-known Hollywood actor. The reason he became a Hollywood actor is because he was a famous body builder. These were not three independent career paths that he visualized his way into. They were connected.

collapsing

Destiny finally recognising who’s actually Triggered in Triggernometry….

Jill Simmons

The New York Times did a piece on Dr. K yesterday.