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John Vervaeke & Jordan Peterson: Word Worshipers (Patreon)

Published:
2024-10-14 22:41:55
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

That's right—we’re back in the heady world of sense-making, but don't worry, we're just in time to witness the resolution of the ever-looming 'Meaning Crisis.'

Join Matt and Chris as they embark on an epic journey with the cognitively inclined philosopher John Vervaeke and none other than Jordan Peterson himself. Together, they navigate a vast web of meaning that spans discussions of Power, Beauty, Love, Religion, and, of course... the Logos!

Along the way, we'll question the limits of complex wordplay and autodidactic insights, delve into the gentle art of delegation, and ponder how the religious-shaped void might be filled through Dialogos. On a more material level, we'll also get a glimpse into the inner workings of Jordisan Academy, the 'We Who Wrestle with God' tour, Sensemaking cruises, and the vital multivitamins every Responsible Man should be taking.

So come along as we grapple with the Omega Rule, cast aside reductive materialism, and bow down in horror and awe to worship the words that the eternal Logos demands.

Links

The Meaning Crisis: Resolution | Dr. John Vervaeke | EP 482

Files

Comments

Chomagerider

WOOOW. That ad was the magic nugget of this episode! My mind is blown.

Linda Sears

A simple rejoinder to the idea that Christianity (or any other religious belief system) informs the morality of an atheist is to remind the other person that humans created these belief systems in the first place as ways to represent their moral values.

Ben Godek

I’ve probably commented this somewhere on a dtg podcast before, but logos is just Greek for word. The sensemakers love to sprinkle it liberally into their podcasts to make their arguments sound fancier. It’s in the Bible because the New Testament is written in Greek, not because it’s a special philosophical term.

Tristram Vahan Draper

I love you guys but I cannot listen to Jordan Peterson's voice. I'm so sorry.

George

I just don't know who those discussions are for besides themselves? But there is clearly an audience for it. It reminds of if you've ever kept choosing words at random on predictive text. It forms a sentence to some extent, the next word can follow the previous, but ultimately makes no sense.

Max

I wish Chris and Matt, in their Dia-logos, would more frequently express the profoundly deep gratitude for each other's offerings, especially since the wounds caused by last week's disagreements haven't fully healed yet.

Nancy Hale

So Vervaeke is involved with the Circling Institute. Confession: I once attended a Circling meeting. It was, uh, interesting. Attendees paired up and a facilitator coached us to have conversations where you were encouraged to affirm and build upon whatever your partner was saying, so you could be “relateful.” We weren’t really given much in the way of topics or prompts and the conversations never seemed to go anywhere. Very vibe-y stuff. Makes sense (sorry) that Vervaeke would be aligned.

Dries T.

Is it just me, or does Peterson constantly interrupt Vervaeke? And Vervaeke is simping like nobody's business.

Michal Lichota

What’s the difference between dialogos and a dialogue? I feel I might not be enlightened enough.

Kevin Nyberg

I’m in for $10 if you want to start a gofundme to buy Matt a chair that doesn’t squeak.

Olexi Kondrat

Vervaeke sounds like he has completely surrendered to the power imbalance between him and Peterson. Another aspect of this hyper excagerated respect to each other is that people end up sacrificing their self-respect in the process.

Stardustsparkle

Great episode, thanks for the laughs 😊

Níall

I couldn't see it but there were moments that I was absolutely positive JBP had his eyes closed while finding the words

Stephen L

Is there any chance you two could tee up a discussion with Tom Holland about Dominion? I personally loved the book, and found Tom's arguments convincing, and would love to hear you engage with him and push back in the way you do so well. You would make great jazz together.

Eddy

Not a great decoding; maybe the mental illness of the source material can’t be overcome; my brain hurts and I feel violated

Ryan O'Rourke

Oh man this from JBP was just too much: "pointers, fractionated pointers in an upward direction. But the upward direction actually emerges as a consequence of their interactions across time, but not only across time, but across time in a social space..." Why say "developed through social interaction with other children" when you could say it like this? I got chills.

Ben Godek

I had a good, hearty laugh when Jordan said that a cruise was cheap compared to a university education.

James P.

@chris John's experience of religious fear in childhood is pretty common, at least here in the US. My dad and wife were both catholic and both of their early lives were filled with dread and anticipation of damnation. Their childhoods were more or less ruined. They are both seekers now, in different forms. It's really sad.

Sean Power

I really appreciate these episodes because I’m curious about what these popular intellectuals are thinking and saying but I struggle to get through them. Something Peterson says got me wondering: do they ever talk about horror and the sublime as deeply as this? (Also, Aristotle and Jesus living in you together? Do they know Aristotle is typically brought to us Through Christianity, since medieval times? It’s like saying Mickey Mouse and Buzz Lightyear living in you together…)

Shaggy Rabbit

How did the plans for sense-making cruises escape (sail free from) a joke about “ship of fools”?

Olexi Kondrat

Another revealing bit was Vervaeke caveating not really being into Christianity by "I don't want to offend Christians, and I've shown that I'm very open to relegious interpretations, right? right?" It highlights how the Omega rule instead of creating an open space for free discussioins in practice enforces conformity and groupthink. Hyper-agreeable approach may be fine in the context of a single conversion, but as a longer-term social norm (as it is applied in practice by many) it seems quite unhealthy. It not only excludes views that are too contrarian, but it also creates a drift from more moderate positions to more extreme weirder views, because more moderate people has too "Yes and" them. Peterson at al. rail against "group-think universities afraid of contrarian ideas and offense and dominated by extreme leftist", but they basically implementing this caricature in practice with their culture of discussions.

Orlando Jones

The Peterson cruise sounds a lot like Scientology's "Sea Org". Now that I think about it, JP has a lot of overlap with L. Ron Hubbard.

Chris Clark

Wow the level of mutual bumlickery between JP and JV in this slab of sense making you both heroically waded through is quite something.

Shaggy Rabbit

It's not just that Jordan and John worship words, they worship *their* words, and thus their own intellects. One of the clips featured Jordan speculating that psychopathology may be the result of disordered or arrested developmental processes, with a kind of awe and reverence that suggested his ideas were somehow original. They're not. The entire history of psychodynamic theory (including his boy Jung's work) is based on this idea. And that's to say nothing of more modern and more empirical work in developmental psychopathology. For all the galaxy-brained references to ancient philosophy or religious imagery, I kinda wish that these guys would read a book (other than The Gulag Archipelago!!) that was written in the last 125 years. Is that too much to ask?!!?

Idan Ca

Great episode! It’s bad enough that JBP serves word salads faster than yannick sinner serves his sets, but hearing him elevate it to the level of astral experiences, oh boy, thats some heavy narcissistic lifting right there

Dial-1-2-enter-in-2-diaLOGOS

The «meaning Crisis» term seem to be a bit dramatic and Jordan rarely says anything that’s not dramatic. It might be some unresolved issue of my own, but I kind of get the feeling that they’re on to something. Though it’s by no means unique to them. I’ve felt that sometimes things do lose some magic by being explained mechanisticly.. (But then again I also feel that the thrill of having a good conversation gets completely destroyed by Jordan and Johns way of talking about it. ) I don’t like where they take the whole meaning thing though. I think it is a mistake to think that meaning should be something that is special for you or that you are special in some way. I think perhaps something that made me a bit happier coming out of my twenties was that I started working, got kids and stopped worrying about my self so much. I don’t think this is because I’m a better person now or anything like that, I think it has more to do with the fact that there simply isn’t enough time to obsess over the little stuff. So maybe the whole meaning crisis would be over if people just got busy doing stuff 😂

Jennydiver

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with you boys except for Twitter, we are in an election in case you haven't heard. Jennydiver on Twitter as well, feel free to DM if Matt needs anything while here in the US.

Tricia Scott

Ok I’m 40 minutes in. Got a question. Are there any female sense makers or is it just men whanging on and on and on? Im thinking of taking up sense making as a sleep aid.

Password1234!

Ahh yes, my favourite lord of the rings character, Juicy Bush.

DavenPsych

So at about 45 minutes Jordan goes off on a tangent about the sacred, moral nature of what basically boils down to the capacity for reciprocal conversation. Chris’ comment about the “morally good” aspect of Jordan’s framing of conversation stuck out to me in relation to the following quote from JBP: “The patterns of action that most optimally facilitate the desire to continue the patterns of action are the, in principle, are pointers towards the most moral way of behaving.” What’s interesting to me here is that he is basically describing the behavioral principle of operant conditioning, and ascribing some moral quality to it, whereas BF Skinner famously did not imbue moralistic aspects to behavior. I know JBP is not looking at it through that lens, just thought this was an interesting example of how JBP has such blinders on. Just because a behavior is reinforced does not make it moral or good, yet he is fully in thrall to this interpretation and sense-making “pattern of action.”

Trees

Great criticism of the dialogos/omega rule. Whatever value it has, it can't be the only way to explore, build and communicate ideas. It's like perpetual brainstorming, and yet the Sensemakers act like it's all you need to do. On Vervaeke overextrapolating his personal background when it comes to finding meaning in life, some good points were made, but I also found Chris and Matt's counter argument that they are fine with reductionism to falls prey to the same flaw. Given how well secular gurudom is doing, it seems like a lot of people do want to seek the transcendent without having to eat Christ morsels. Also, Vervaeke is pronounced Ver-vay-key. I expect Matt to shorten all "a"s, but c'mon Chris.

Jill

Felt like I’d rather stick pins in my eyes than continue listening to… srsly depressing that people listen to JBP .. only Matt and Chris’s incredulous giggling outbursts kept me going ..😛

Jill

“Responsible men” are the problem! Don’t give them vitamins as well

Will

The "yes and" approach seems like it could be a useful way to come up with new ideas that you later refine and have pressure tested. A group of musicians will have a free-flowing jam session where they "yes and" each other until they find something worth expanding upon into a song. Once they find that idea, they'll go away and write a song in a much more deliberate fashion, that song will then be pressure tested, improved upon or stripped back by producers, record labels etc. until it's fit for release. JBP and Vervaeke are just releasing the jam sessions as if it's a song. It's beyond arrogant to think that your unprocessed brain farts are worthy of release, but this is exactly what they're doing.

Anne Stephens

Dial λ for wavy & lengthy... Ooh! Perhaps it's the λ of G** ??

kurdelis

There probably is a world where some JP fans after hearing how important it is, are trying to have the same "meaningful conversations" , abiding by the Logos spirit. That must be something!

Reinert

While listening I can't help but imagine Jordan's elaborate hand gestures

Jason Trock

There used to be a fun radio show on NPR called Word Jazz.. hosted by Ken Nordine.. man JP and JV just ruin everything! Anyway Ken described Word Jazz exactly the way Matt and Chris are trying to describe the sensemakers word salad.

KBDaxio

It seems to me that JP takes it all very seriously. He truly believes the profundity of his insights, while the other “gurus” strike me as more consciously grifting and super careful not to challenge or criticize him because he is (mysteriously) one of the top dogs in the grifting secular guru world.

Tree

Maybe Im an anti-social primate because I find Sense Making almost as aggravating as Red Scare.

Becky Rose

If I hear the word logos one more time I'm going to vomit. It's worse when JP says it.

Frances goulart

I would have something insightful to contribute but I have not taken my Responsible Woman vitamins today 😩

Frances goulart

When can I sign up for the Matt and Chris Guru-cruise?