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Supplementary Material 31: Aquatic Nightmares, Strategic Obliviousness, & Race Realists (Patreon)

Published:
2025-06-13 08:58:51
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

We head into the darker corners of the gurusphere and marvel at some very, very brave people and their valiant efforts to play devil's advocate. Join us, won't you?

Sources

BBC- RFK Jr appoints new US vaccine advisers after sacking committee

Flint Dibble’s New Video: Joe Rogan's Cult of Fake Archaeology

Lex Fridman’s Insufferable Tweet

Sam Harris EPISODE 419 "More From Sam": Elon vs. Trump, Religion, Jordan Peterson, & Rapid Fire Questions

The All In Besties being cowards

The Guardian: Harvard author Steven Pinker appears on podcast linked to scientific racism

Hope Not Hate’s investigation into Aporia and related race science networks

If Books Could Kill: The Lab Leak Goes Mainstream

New Statesman: No, objecting to Cambridge’s appointment of a eugenicist is not about free speech

Bo Winegard’s Tweet about Low IQ Parasites destroying the National Tree

Arthur Jensen’s Bio on SPLC

Jackson, J. P., Jr. (2023). Arthur Jensen, evolutionary biology, and racism. History of Psychology, 26(1), 1–28. https://doi.org/10.1037/hop0000221

Paul Bloom with Diana Fleischman

Supplementary Material 31: Aquatic Nightmares, Strategic Obliviousness, & Race Realists

00:00 Introduction & Ol Squeaky Cameo

02:57 Matt's Aquarium Trauma & Stress Dreams

09:45 RFK Jnr's war on science continues

11:17 Robert Malone & other 'Covid Contrarians' rewarded under Trump

14:35 The LA Protests, Riots, and Anti-Immigrant Narratives

20:12 Flint Dibble calls out Joe Rogan

25:24 Joe Rogan is a polemical ideologue and anti vaccine advocate

27:34 Cassandra Kavanagh?

32:37 If Books Could Kill on Lab Leak

35:10 Popular Perceptions of the Covid Pandemic vs Reality

38:38 Debating COVID-19 Measures

38:59 Clarifying the Role of Sam's Manager

42:56 Discussing Trump, Musk, and DOGE's Political Impact

47:12 The Meaning Crisis and the Comfort of Religion

50:35 The Effects of Social Media

53:15 Matt and Chris Friendly Shadowboxing

56:19 The horror of directly stating your opinions

58:14 Sam Harris' Preparation for Conversations

01:05:02 Strategic Obliviousness

01:12:26 A little bit of TRT Discourse

01:16:17 Lex's Insufferable Tweet:  Celebrating Humanity and Responding to Critics

01:18:46 The Bravery of the All In Podcast Besties

01:20:33 Elon Musk and Donald Trump: A Complex Relationship

01:23:42 Mike from PA and Dunking Safely Online

01:26:10 Scientific Racism and Controversial Podcasts

01:34:02 Paul Bloom and Subjective Redlines

01:41:10 The Neo-Nazi Smoke in the Race Realism World

01:48:36 Daniël Lakens on Bryan Johnson on Mortality Salience

01:50:16 Matt's Foodie Corner

01:52:21 Outro

Comments

Theic

Pinker gives me the creeps. Not rational, just one of those things

Jen

They are corn-starched potatoes!! 🥔 Exotic, indeed!!

iffydonatello

Meat and potatoes are harder to cook well. Can't cheat by using all that expensive fish sauce.

Chomagerider

So revealing to hear Sam Harris TALK about his approach to his JBP appearance. Admittedly, it's been pretty clear for a long time that that's what he does. But this admission is direct proof. Totally discredits him in my opinion.

Erland Hvittfeldt

Love how Sam's manager copies Sam's expressions 😅. "First, a little housekeeping. Many people were confused by what I said etc"

Jake

Forget disagreeing agreeably, DTG is all about the manly disagreeing vigorously!

KBDaxio

Matt — you’ve done exactly what you accuse the right of doing in your take on what’s happening in LA. You automatically take a position based on your left leaning assumptions. You question whether the violence is real. It is. Why do you assume that the video clips are fake, especially after the riots of 2020? The national guard was activated to protect federal property and federal personnel who were there to serve legal warrants of deportation. I live just outside of NYC and we escaped most of the mayhem in 2020 because of police presence, although the ridiculous genuflection to the narrative of discriminatory policing resulted in public policy that refused to prosecute theft if the value was under $999 (resulting in the closure of many stores in inner cities — a business decision, not a racist one). Finally, I am not saying that Trump is good, pure or correct, but the left plays into his hands constantly! “All of LA isn’t rioting.” “The Maryland man.” “From the River to the Sea.” “Trump is going to put gays into camps!” “Nazi!” “Joe Biden is as sharp as he ever was.” “Save democracy! There will be no democratic primary!” Anyway, my point is that sometimes your statements are equally broad and misleading and non nuanced as what we hear from the right.

Ando

Great ep. Even got an ITYSL reference in at the end 😇

Níall

Is Matt aware that everyone who has taken melatonin has died within the next 100 years?

Kit Zullasson

Sam is such an odd character. He's taking seemingly bold and provocative positions all the time but then he is ultra-concerned about getting into conflicts and is very tame with his dinner party pals. Such a confused and fearful man. Not a good role model.

katfish_burglar

Re: the social media boogeyman...where is the argument for "personal responsibility" related to social media usage? We hear the argument for everything else unhealthy (tobacco, gambling, extreme sports). It's not only possible, but quite easy, to cultivate a "healthy" social media presence that provides some level of social fulfillment (e.g. hobby forums, community groups, etc.). Blaming social media for the collapse of community, the "lonliness epidemic", and everything else just feels like such a lazy tactic and raises a bright red flag everytime I hear it.

CHUSSTERR

Hasn't sam harris condemned other podcast hosts that he disagrees with for not performing interventions on guests he views as troublesome?

Quietscheentchen

You can say that it can happen to anyone, but stuff like this happens to Mike on a regular basis actually

Jonathan Cano

Imagine how much better the world would be if Sam Harris was the worst Guru. regarding Sam's manager: Ezra Klein does a great job of making it clear he does not hold a particular view when he brings up views he strongly disagrees with for a guest to respond to.

Unfitforpurpose

It's key for Sam not to prepare before a conversation like that. If he admitted to doing research he'd lose his main dodge of pretending he didn't have time to look up the thing he was just talking about.

James P.

Thanks matt and chris, for continuing to introduce these exotic predators into OUR ecosystems

Ad Tastic

The one thing Australia did right with COVID was close the borders before the pandemic even got there. Im skeptical about the actual lockdowns tho. Did Norway do better than Sweden? Yeah, but Sweden still did pretty good. Did California do better than Texas? Yeah, but not by much. Put it this way, Im an Aussie that spent COVID living in the US and I did not love all the hysteria that was seemingly going on back home. I wasn't upset to be in America during that time.

Georgie

A funny and infuriating Friday afternoon listen. Joe Rogan's infinite stupidity mixed with school yard cruelty is mystifying to me. Rogan has picked the brains of some of the smartest people around but he remains a big dumb dumb. His impenetrable skull should be studied for the sake of mankind. Flint Dibble showed Dumb-Dumb Joe respect he did not deserve.

Linda Sears

Thank you for bringing up that “the government mishandled the COVID response” narrative has become more mainstream. Given we were dealing with a novel pathogen, I’m pretty satisfied with the responses overall. Yes, there were disruptions, but government institutions aren’t miracle workers. And I’m more tolerant about the mixed messages that occurred at the beginning when we were all still trying to figure it out. Some people appear to forget how much we just plain did not know at the start. It’s so much easier now to look back and complain.

Kimberly Beer

Thank you for highlighting the dismissal of the members of the ACIP. My org weighed in to be on the record. Also tomorrow in DC I’ll just be watching films all day at a film festival. Pray for torrential rain!☔️

Ben Godek

Sam Harris rebranding “not doing research” as “not polluting your mind with information” made me yell out loud in my car (alone thankfully).

Kimberly Beer

Also the giggling and banter are just so awesome after a very long week!

Ema

I havent had an aquarium since I was a kid, but still have rare occasional nightmares about fish jumping out.

jpops

I think it's plausible Sam's manager is being honest that his intention is just to ask questions and play devil's advocate. It's more a skill issue that his own opinions and beliefs are ultimately being reflected in his questioning. But that doesn't mean he is being dishonest about his intentions.

Andy

What difference does it make if Sam's manager actually holds the views he's presenting to Sam or not? He said he's there to be a foil to Sam. Maybe sometimes he does personally agree with the positions he's holding, and sometimes he doesn't. The question is, why does it matter, if he's openly stating the purpose is to be a foil? Why can't the ideas stand on their own, and there be a dialectic about any topic being discussed? Why does a position have to be about a specific person, and not just the ideas themselves?

SHOUNAK SARKAR

With regards to Sam Harris, the ultimate hypocrisy is that he’s hyperaware of what some crazy, fringe leftist says on Twitter and then proceeds to tar the entirety of the left with that view. He doesn’t take the “no research” attitude then. Meanwhile Harris has no issues hosting Douglas Murray repeatedly. And he nods along as Murray inevitably regurgitates bigoted anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant and hard-right talking points because Harris largely agrees with them. It’s not just about not doing research, Harris is a reactionary, bigoted, anti-woke culture warrior asshole, who shares similar politics with Murray, Bari Weiss, Hirsi Ali and co. What some people find so appealing about Harris or why they hold him in special reverence amongst gurus is beyond me. The whiny prick is irredeemable! His ignorance, arrogance and total absence of self-reflection or contrition is a perfect fit for the IDW.

SHOUNAK SARKAR

On another entirely different note, I wonder what do you guys & Matt think about the ethics of aquariums? Not criticising Matt at all, i’m sure he takes superb care of his pet fish 😅. But you know how negatively we see owning pet birds and keeping them in cages as cruel & oppressive? Should it be the same for keeping fish constrained in a small aquarium? Where they are basically swimming in the same small space day after day. Isn’t the better thing to do is to only own fish, if you can stock them in a natural lake, stream or even a small dam, if you happen to have those wetland features in your backyard? What do you guys reckon?

YellowDreams

100% agree on Sam’s manager. He’s quite clearly presenting his opinions. If her were just providing a foil then he’d have better versions the arguments he makes because he would have had to learn these other opinions.

Greg

Another great episode! But how did you miss catching the point that the only reason Sam's manager didn't try TRT was the fear of "injecting a needle into his body" and the familiarity to anti-vaccine rhetoric of it?

Eric Ireland

I was interested to hear your opinion about Aporia and I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Jonas Berge

Any good resources that debunk the notion of a meaning crisis?

Sam D.

FYI to Matt!! You used the term "riots" to characterize the protests in Calif. and unwittingly are using the exact framing of the right in the US that is the justification for Trump's militarized response in our cities. I don't expect you guys to know all the nuances of American discourse but this is actually a big one. In any large demonstration in the US you may have a small number of people burning cars, breaking windows, etc, but if you are talking twenty people out of thousands of peaceful demonstrators - these are not "riots", they are largely lawful protests. I've lived through riots, and believe me that's not what's happening. Don't buy into the FOX news hype!

Zaniken

I used to have frogs and I also had bad dreams about neglecting them so I had to give them away too.

Efrem Zecarias

£1500 for a debate/blog? Racist donor funding must be flowing well. Who are these rich weirdos who are cutting the cheques that support Aporia editors/podcasters?

YellowDreams

Why talk to Jordan Peterson at all if wanna just avoid the fact he’s one of the leading maga and conspiracy theory thought leaders. Lots of firtile stuff you disagree with him on Sam. But for some reason don’t wanna confront that so why even talk to him?

Nancy Hale

Speaking of crank scientists being put in charge of national policies, let’s remember Trofim Lysenko, 1940’s & 50’s Soviet agriculture, and a whole bunch of famines.

Linda Sears

Just want to say that some of my favorite meals are meat and potatoes.

IHaveEatenFoliage

Decoding the Gurus, do you happen to know what promotion Steve Pinker made of Steve Sailer? That’s the claim I’ve heard a bunch but weird that the claim is he never promoted Steve Sailers stance on X position or study of X phenomenon or something. It could be a sketchy citation, but I wouldn’t say he’s promoted Judith Butler for using her as an example of terrible writing style lol. Edit: okay I’ve tried to dig a bit and is the only tie that in a back and forth with Malcolm Gladwell about his claims that draft order in the NFL doesn’t matter much, he had done some research on the topic and had a source of an article from Steve Sailer? Honestly given the stakes of name dropping Steve Sailer and the small stakes of that small argument, I think that’s pretty good evidence Pinker had no clue who he was other than finding the article with a google search lol.

Nicky Turk

M C8. I n mhthe c" ugly. K c jjj hobo

Joseph Sullivan

In regards to Sam's reluctance to look at the public behavior of his friends, and his refusal to reflect about the same, I get the vibe that he really wants to avoid yet another falling out with an IDW friend. Its hard to go through the dissolution of a friendship. If Sam was honestly critical of the people he associates with and confronted them about their bad behavior, then he might end up going through a lot more of those breakups.

Salex

I didn’t do the necessary pre-reading for this class because I didn’t want to pollute my brain

Tristram Vahan Draper

Harris is a coward he wants to keep plausible deniability so he doesn't get kicked out of his little club.

Matt Dear

Rogan is such a fucking wanker, I hate that man so much. Disgusting piece of shit.

Daniel

Sam's manager seems like a bad influence. Clearly the guy has sympathies with the rightwing podcaster bro crowd, even moreso than Sam. Glad you guys pointed out the untruth of him just playing devil's advocate. Listening to today's episode and he interjects with words to the effect of "look how long it took you to bring up Trump!" One of those people who don't like Trump being criticized too much, I guess. I'm sure he'll annoy me more as this episode goes on...

Erquirk

How many times is Lex gonna post that same pathetic tweet?? It’s embarrassing for all involved

Eddy Wyn

Hello gentlemen. Reporting from our abode just north of downtown LA (where we also work). Kind of sounds like you're not getting the best reporting abroad, so just wanted to let you know that the "riots" have been nothing more than skirmishes that don't meet the level of rambunctiousness that occurs post-Dodger game pennant win. We had been taking a news break that week, and even though we work downtown only a couple blocks from City Hall, we had no idea anything was happening. That's how slight the incidents were. As a matter of fact, we actually went back downtown to Little Tokyo for pastries the morning of June 7. Crickets. Just an incredibly beautiful morning, as usual. LAPD was telling the absolute truth when they begged Trump not to fuck it up, because what little had occurred was well under control by then. So, please don't fall for the fake news and the twisted narratives which, sadly, are even being pushed by legacy media. If I see that same old video of the burning Waymo and the dozen or so folks on The 101 …🤦