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Supplementary Material 35: Cult Leaders, Gurus, and Evil Economists (Patreon)

Published:
2025-08-19 21:55:00
Edited:
2025-08-19 21:57:35
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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Content

We face a disciplinary crisis as the twin pillars of Game Theory and Gurometry are called into question.

Supplementary Material 3500:05 Introduction  01:52 Matt's Apology06:55 Just Life...12:34 Matt's Foodie Corner 14:01 Dedunking Dan Richards finds Sabine16:37 Sabine cultivates parasocial defenders18:16 Ana Kasparian gets deeper into ZOG conspiracies24:44 Gary vs Game Theory40:26 Support the Channel to Save the World47:10 Bryan Johnson and Methylene blue51:52 Scientific Cosplay Online53:51 Keith Rainiere and Sensemaking Parallels54:57 High IQ YoungHoon Kim tweets about proof of God56:19 Guru and Cult Leader Parallels01:01:13 The Validity of the Gurometer in Question?!?01:03:03 Hacking Social Heuristics01:07:38 Cult Leaders vs Secular Gurus01:12:33 Anti-Democratic moves by Trump01:15:03 Dan Carlin on Trump01:18:30 Streamers Talking Nonsense: Hasan on ISIS01:21:24 Ideological Fixation and Motivated Conspiracism01:27:22 Outro

Sources

The Cushendun Sea Caves from Game of Thrones

Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2 is Boosting Tourism

DeDunking: Eric Weinstein's Theory — Real Physicist vs Pseudo Poser

Ana Kasparian tweeting about the “Zionist Occupied Government”

Gary’s Economics: Game Theory is Broken

Critical Reddit thread on Gary’s Game Theory video

Henrich, J., McElreath, R., Barr, A., Ensminger, J., Barrett, C., Bolyanatz, A., ... & Ziker, J. (2006). Costly punishment across human societies. Science, 312(5781), 1767–1770.

The Selfish Gene, Chapter 12: Nice Guys Finish First (Richard Dawkins)

High IQ YoungHoon Kim tweets about proof of God

I was Jordan Peterson’s strongest supporter. Now I think he’s dangerous

Dan Carlin’s tweet about Trump

BBC: National Guard troops appear in Washington DC as mayor rejects Trump's 'authoritarian push'

Nathan Baker Keith Raniere, Ringleader of NXIVM Sex Slave Cult, Interviewed by Allison Mack, Top Cult Member

Comments

Lillie

😲🙏👏

Matt Laine

Always a great day when a new Supplementary Materials drops. I know decoding gurus is the whole point but the recent decodings have gotten so depressing I just love being able to hang out and listen to Matt and Chris faf about.

Kitchen Garage

Every SM should begin with several minutes of Matt apologizing to us.

Joe Figura

Chechnya, Czechia, hardly any difference

Linda Sears

I’m still savoring the Naval episode. You guys are on fire.

iffydonatello

ISIS is an Islamist state organization that does tend to attack on secretariat grounds, historically. Has ISIS attacked Israel? Yes bout it isn't generally the goal. They attempt to set up a state or defacto state. ISIS was in conflict with Hezbollah and Shia organizations. And ISIS is in conflict with Hamas in Gaza. There is some evidence that Israel has used that conflict against Hezbollah and Hamas. I think this is what Hasan is pointing to not a false flag operation. To Matt: no one claims that ISIS is a resistance movement. Hamas is a resistance movement that uses terrorist tactics.

pr

Not co signing Ana Kasparian in any way but if her comments were about AIPAC that would at least be somewhat more accurate.

RareTripleBait

When the sensemakers start to host volleyball nights we will have a real problem.

RareTripleBait

Cannot believe you are new to Keith Raniere 🤯 Cults (as well as conspiracy theory communities) were the basis on which my interest in your work grew.

Anthony Z

I'm enjoying Chris slowly educating Matt about nerd topics like D&D and Warhammer.

Cautious Dissolute

That was one of the worst explanation for game theory I've ever heard. Clearly he's just "simplifying" for laymen, right? I've heard all of his economic predictions are correct; so perhaps it doesn't matter that he doesn't understand game theory.

Joe Figura

You should interview Robert Evans from Behind the Bastards about cult leaders! That's a core topic for him, and he's covered Keith Raniere in particular too. Your podcasts have similar themes and probably pretty similar listener bases.

Chomagerider

Hard yes on the idea to explore cult leaders. Sounds more interesting than these shallow and annoying silicon valley wankers.

pr

*Belle Gibson was the fake cancer Australian

CHUSSTERR

Can't wait to hear about cult leaders. Cult dynamics is a topic close to me.

Elissa

Yay! So chuffed at my honorary mention! So chuffed in fact that I’m cooking up something special.

Sean Power

Good episode! A small point on Guinness book of world records. You approach them to add yourself to it. So, like Mensa, it requires the rewardee to look for if. I wonder who else claims Guinness records amongst the gurusphere?

Frances Sebesta

When you mentioned Huberman, you briefly said something about ‘grounding’. My ears pricked up because this has been recommended to a family member after chemo treatment. What is it? Is it BS?

i'm dissLexick

Can we always end on a positive note. Dogs, cooking or even people doing good work like kergazart

Emma

My old dog was like Matt's Jazz. She loved walking so much but towards the end she had mobility issues. I actually got her a dog wheelchair which she loved!! My new dog though could walk the legs off a donkey. I'm on long service leave so today we walked for three hours pretty fast for most of it and we got home. She had a short nap. Then she wanted to go out again!!

Roderigo Borges

lol at Gary pumping up the cult dynamics, you are morally obliged to like and subscribe, anytime you’re having a conversation and it’s not about Gary, somebody must bring up Gary, people should be going knocking on doors asking people if they’ve heard the good news of Gary’s gospel

Dr Marti McAuley

Aw Chris what a blast to hear Knocknacarry mentioned 🥰 just ‘down the road’ from me 😂

Max

It wouldn't be a SM without Matt discovering a fresh angle to shit on Northern Ireland ❤️

Bernt

The salmon skin is the best part!

CHUSSTERR

One entire column that every cult leader demonstrates is extreme exploitation on a personal, individual basis. There's a whole series of bullet points within that column, but I would say it's entirely different from what can be achieved on a parasocial basis.

Andreas Singer

Let's all subscribe to Gary's channel right now to end hunger, disease, inequality and create world peace. We can do it!

Heidi Sævareid

If Matt is going to keep saying 'Mattrix', I think we should start calling him 'Mate'.

Nancy Hale

Chris on holidaying: “Traveling with kids, it’s basically work.” 😂

CHUSSTERR

Wait... i thought RFK JR's thing was that dyes in our food and drinks are bad & they cause autism and cancer and shit. He's carrying around a fucking dropper and dosing his drinks throughout the day???? Bru that's deranged. How does he know how much to take? That's like literally child mentality.

look... my gf loves my porrige so get off my back

So it's certainly true that game theory does not make the moral claim that being selfish is good. But there is some research that seems to show that studying economics in general and game theory in particular does make you more selfish. So even though the pure theory is not prescriptive, it may in fact teach people to be more selfish. So I think this point of Gary's is much more reasonable than you said/implied. (None of that justifies his self-promotion, etc obviously.)

Moe's

The Elephant graveyard just made a video explaining how Joe rogan Acts an Cult leader how he pushes his reality onto the "rogansphear"

Linda Sears

Regarding Gary and game theory, it feels like he was just finding another way to criticize economists as morally suspect.

Russell

Love listening to Chris and Matt video game talk lol. Ever played Disco Elysium? That was a neat cerebral game with interesting writing.

Dirk Borgmann

„He seems to think that game theory is making some sort of moral claims about what people do or what they should do.“ - Can you please quote the part where Stevens says anything that leads you to think that. As far as I can see he says the exact opposite. He states that game theory is not concerned with moral claims. That is why game theory cannot predict outcomes where strong moral motives are involved but unknown. No game theorist would be offended by that. Stevens does not criticise game theory. He criticises the deductions that classical economists make from game theory. Because they assume that when an economy finally comes to its equilibrium (which according to certain schools it surely will) everyone will act in a way that grants the best outcome according to game theory. Tit-for-tatting away in endless bliss. And that is rubbish - as Stevens rightly points out. So somehow you are mocking Stevens for things that really he is mocking classical economics for.

Russell

Off the top of my head, one aspect that would appear on a cult-o-meter that isn’t on the gurometer is Love Bombing. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the gurus do this in their personal lives, there is less chance to do it in an interview setting.

JustMe

Oh Chris and Matt (and everyone) re: NXIVM. Well worth your time is the documentary series. “The Vow”. Not sure if it’s still playing on Amazon. It’s fascinating. Much of it is from the perspective of some of the leaders in NXIUM who escaped and there’s some criticism of their ability to claim this could happen to anyone. (And one of the principals was a filmmaker, did all the promotion materials and he had thousands of hours of footage that the doc makers could avail themselves of.) https://www.amazon.com/The-Vow-Season-1/dp/B0B6CV1CJQ

Roscoe 112

Ahh...but what about serving up a Double Danny Schmachtenberger of Game B Theory?

Erik Althoff

For the horseshoe to make sense the people need to be on the extreme ends of the spectrum. Ana is centrist and drifting right - it has nothing to do with a horseshoe..

Erik Althoff

Hasan didn’t say anything close to what you said!? I’m on the left but no huge fan of Hasan but that’s one hell of a stretch?!

Chook Norton

Arent you conflating anti-israel and anti-semitism with your criticisms of ana though? Suppose that made it easier to compare her to klandace

Subodh Kafle

Genuinely shocking take on game theory from a guy who brags about having an advanced degree in economics.

Kimberly Beer

It’s so depressing here in DC. I’m going to Ukrainian independence celebration tomorrow in front of White House. Upsetting times!

Dank Sparrow

So I went in twitter to check Dan's tweet... Haven't been in that cess pool for years thanks Chris! I'm a Dan Carlin Stan and wanted to see the response... The grok response was to shit on Dan for his COVID position which is an angle I had forgotten about and was actually surprised to see AI been used to discredit someone I admire I guess I shouldn't really be surprised. The world is too weird sometimes.

Vivian

Speaking of media leading to tourism- one day I want to go to Australia to see all the places in Bluey. Australias best of the best other than Matt.

Amy

Matt doesn’t eat salmon skin?? That’s the best part!