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Julie Rowe's video: A discussion with Dr. John (Patreon)

Published:
2021-06-24 08:40:41
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2026-06
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Content

You have asked, and asked, and finally  Dr. John delivers with some excellent observations about Julie Rowe, her recent videos, and her beliefs.

After Julie mentioned 'Hidden True Crime' in her YouTube live on Tuesday morning, John decided to give some initial thoughts. Julie begins the video by expressing anger over things Shawn Littlebear mentioned during an interview with Lauren on Monday, and then continues on for 40 minutes, sharing additional grievances. Here are Dr. John's initial thoughts after watching the video.  This is an unedited conversation at our dinner table Wednesday night.

Dr. John takes your requests to understand Julie Rowe seriously. He explains it will be another 10 hours of research, as well as reading a few of Julie's books, to dig deep enough to give a more detailed analysis.

A request from Dr. John to please not make this podcast public in any way. This is a very sensitive topic, and there is a reason Dr. John has been hesitant. Patreon is his "safe place" to share, and we hope to keep it that way. Thank you for your support!! 


Comments

Heidi

I’m not sure the age thing connects. I was born late in the year of a non-multiple of five year and I often have to do the math to figure out my age. Not having privileged threshold birthdays (16, 18, 21) anymore and cakes with candles makes the year less important/ easier to forget. Or should I worry about myself?

Kit Alloway

Those of us who have studied history don't normally confuse the Samaritans with the Sumerians.

tora Johns

Didnt pathway to Zion 'release' Julie from her membership as they were worried about her mental health. They said they hope she gets the help she needs, and this was several years ago. She would contact other members and leave coded emails/ voicemails but they had no idea what she was talking about.

Tad Auty

Agree with Johns initial take on this completely! From my own bit of learning I think key is that she moved a lot as a kid and was also one of the elder kids in a large family. It doesn’t always work well for less resilient kids - they can get lost in the crowd. Even Julies talk of the Illuminati or needing body guards doesn’t come across as her being scared., but more her feeling the need to let everyone know how very important she is that she needs special staff to protect her special butt. I have known people similar- it’s like they have a steel wall in their mind and trying to have a conversation about reality or potential flaws in thinking, maybe taking a different viewpoint, that wall can shut down and chop off your hand. Sometimes you just can’t get through. I guess the survival of the ego depends on it. Ps thanks John for mentioning the untrue cliche that narcissistic don’t commit suicide. I think there is some connection between narcissism and borderline-in my complete amateur opinion - Sometimes suicide can be used as a way to hold others hostage by using your own life. Also, narcissistic people don’t like to face consequences- so to some it can be an option. Thanks guys- looking forward to more !

Tamara Wakeman Sukohl

Thank you! Dr John is so compassionate. I just need to understand what I am seeing. Human behavior is so interesting.

CuriousCat

Much as I shy away from all topics Julie Rowe, I am reluctantly drawn in because it is directly related to Chad Daybell’s “turning point” in a his beliefs. (IMO) I just can’t wrap my head around how people could lose reality to this extreme. It is a mystery to me and , Dr. John and Lauren, you are my source of understanding. I look forward to more discussion on JR simply because she is another clue to solving this puzzle. Thank you both.

Katie Marlowe

When I saw my notification that Hidden TC had posted a new recording, it felt like Christmas morning. 😁 Thank y’all for weighing in on JR. I’m always interested in hearing Dr. John’s opinion and Lauren’s questions. You two are an amazing team. I especially appreciate Dr. John’s initial reaction of empathy. I’ve had the rather unpopular view that Melanie Gibb deserves some empathy. When she interviewed with Nate Eaton she seemed sorry for her involvement with Chad and Lori; and, even said that she was embarrassed to have believed their crazy doctrine. But, the public seems to want to blame her, and everyone else associated with the Daybells, including Mr. Littlebear. ...Maybe I’m just naive. This is a little off topic, but I had a bit of a breakthrough when Dr. John explained “splitting.” I had an experience as an adolescent that derailed my self esteem. Even though I knew logically that it wasn’t my fault, it took decades to really heal. After years of therapy, and even through my work as a victim’s advocate, I still don’t think I fully understood why survivors of sexual abuse turn on themselves so deeply. I knew it happened, but never had a full understanding as to why. So, as I said, I had an epiphany from Dr. J’s example of splitting. It makes more sense to me now. Thanks Dr. John. What do I owe you? 😉

Sew Me

Thank you! I appreciate Dr. John's insight while being compassionate about what is going on. Many have an initial reaction and don't look at the underlying reasons leading to the behavior. Reactionary labels only causes the behavior to get worse. Julie's behavior and reactions are so much like a family member of mine that I could not finish watching her video, it was a little too real for me to get through. Thank you both for your insight.

Laura Pearson

Thanks for this podcast. It was interesting and done with professionalism.

Laura Pearson
>>62459269

Good point! Look at the 2012 Olympic head coach of the women’s USA gymnastic team. He killed himself hours after being charged with multiple felonies for abuse, . He was probably very narcissistic.

Julie Holden

One thing that's so odd to me about Julie Rowe is the TikToks from about mid-April to mid-June. She posts little clips looking very slack-jawed, with such a flat expression on her face, no affect at all, really. When she smiles, her whole face lights up. But when she's staring into the camera with her mouth slightly open, making hand motions to the rhythm of some or other 90s song — doing her "energy work" — it's very unsettling. If I believed in people sending healing vibes via TikTok, I would still expect it to look more, hm, friendly I guess? Eh, I just don't understand it at all! Maybe it's a TikTok thing?? BTW, about her changing age, I don't think she's necessarily out of touch with reality, but rather she forgot to fib when she said 49½. I think she desperately wants to avoid aging, and fifty is ollllld!! (😄 I'm 52.) On her TikTok (and seriously, I don't understand TikTok! I just got on it to see what on earth JR was doing), her bio is "Turned 48 in January 2021. Author. Podcaster. Energy worker. Business owner. Mom. 😁" It's like the silly joke where you say, "Oh, this is my third 49th birthday!" But I think to JR, the big 5-0 is a big dealio, in a bad way.

Amber Ferdig

I only watched a few minutes of her video, and all I saw was pain in her expression. No one else was commenting on that. I'm glad to hear Dr.John's take. This was a sad episode to listen to. The idea of paranoia and loneliness was very interesting. I think it gives some insight about an Uncle that I don't talk too anymore because he hates/is paranoid of any group whether political or religious that is not his own. Thinking about his life and him living far from family support. I am wondering now if some of that is being spurred on by feelings of loneliness.

Lynnette coster

Another great & insightful interview. I agree that Julie exhibits a subverted outrage that Chad’s ‘prophet train’ traveled further and faster than hers. I think they may very well have had a ‘crush’ type of romantic entanglement that may never have even become fully sexual. Watching her delaminate like this is excruciating. I have trouble mustering much empathy for her but I feel very deeply for her children. Growing up with this is harrowing.

Lynnette coster

The grief over not being special seems really a large and enduring Achilles heel in the LDS faith experience.

Julie Holden
>>62476900

Yes, and I appreciated them mentioning the amount of work that Dr. John puts into their analyses!

Sylvia See

I don’t feel comfortable asking Dr. John to dig deeper and actually read JR’s autobiography. I watched her YouTube video and did not detect a coherent belief system (beyond the “I am gifted, I am persecuted by my enemies, someday I will watch, from a safe distance, them suffer”). Then she randomly spouts pseudo-spiritual snippets of “wisdom” and she’s done. She is as shallow as a pizza pan. Don’t bother Dr. John, she is not that interesting and not worth your time.

Stephanie Budge

I think you have done your best at getting the information we all want. No one could do it any better than you have. We are not dealing with healthy individuals and you are only going to get back the same in interviews as what is in their mind. I think what we are witnessing is their own group breaking down and it’s not because we are all exposing them. The heat is on them from law enforcement and with in their own group and this is their own fallout. I appreciate what you and Dr. John are doing to help the rest of us make some sense of what they are living.😊

sue norvell

This is exactly why im so interested in true crime. What makes a person behave the way they do? I too feel sympathy for JR (maybe more pity) but holy cow talk about watching a train wreck. Best five bucks ive spent in a long time. Thank you.

Jana Smith

I appreciate your insights. When I heard about the JR YouTube video yesterday, I watched it with sadness and was honestly a little in shock. I haven’t really seen someone lose it like that before. She has always given me that “weird” vibe, but this was beyond that, in my opinion. It makes me wonder if this is something like what may have happened, or be happening to Lori.

Aleece Skeem

I believe Julie Rowe patterned her book after the Visions of Glory book by John Pontius. Visions of Glory was publsihed first and many people in the LDS church were reading and talking about it. Then Julie's book came out a couple years later. I started to read it but it appeared to just be copying ideas from Visions of Glory.

Jodi Van Zaig

Oh man, that was heavy. When Dr. John described the child being abused by her father..that was me. I learn too much about myself through these trials. Fascinating and scary. Also, my initial thought after watching the JR vid was to feel sorry for her. Then to wonder at her delusions. Anyhow, thank you so much Dr. John and Lauren for your in depth and exceptionally insightful analyses. I learn more each time I listen.

ShaRee

Since 2015 I’ve waited for this day for Julie to implode publicly. But now, it’s time for me to forgive, Thanks to Dr. John’s initial analyses. Julie’s a broken woman and I hope she stops bringing other people down with her and gets some help. As always great job to both of you, you are my favorites.

ShaRee
>>62530116

I have always thought the same thing, about Chad and Julie. They saw the success of this book, believed it and wanted to go deeper.

Dana Reed

Hi Lauren and Dr. John, I am a new patreon member, and want to say thank you for such great content. It's so great to get to know you both. I have no idea how I have not found you sooner! I have watched 3 of your videos, and realized I want to support you all. To give back, for all you both contribute to this heart breaking case, and infuriating as well. I guess I am going to have to watch JR video to put things in perspective before watching this video. Gosh, I would rather have pins driven under my nails! It's the least I can do for all the hours you all have dedicated to this horrible case. Many thanks, and lots of appreciation.

Hidden True Crime
>>62568062

What an incredible compliment coming from you, Erica! Thank you! I hope you listen to the other episodes we've shared here, More are coming. And additional free episodes for the public are coming too. :)

Lori Shillenn (Speakman)
>>62476324

Had the same kind of experience with splitting and, just like you said, Dr. John made me understand so much better. It's been an added gift to supporting their efforts and, does indeed, feels like I owe him more.

Georgia

If Dr. John’s analysis is correct - and It sure sounds right to me! Does he believe medication could help with her paranoia and delusions and allow her to heal? Thanks to you both for sharing your knowledge and for your kindness.

Madeline Mahajan

True Crime/"Dr John" Do you see these comments?

Madeline Mahajan

Psychotherapist/Professional counselor here who works in and studies death and dying. NDE's are legitimate phenomena and Julie Rowe is far from being the first to approach discussing them. https://iands.org/ She may have been one of first who hails from the LDS community NDEs is world wide and being conducted in a scientific manner.

Diane Long-Simon

It's interesting she visualized her x-husband's death as did Chad Daybell. It amazes me they never see their own...

Marcella Able

Hello Dr. John & Lauren, thank you for putting up these talks. I look forward to everything you put on YouTube & this platform. They are so educational & I have learned so much.

Ksealrose

After listening to Julie Rowe’s video, I thought well you can’t fix crazy. Then I thought I’m not gonna make it through her video, it’s so out there. Then I found myself having compassion for her. I am truly at a loss of word. Waiting for Dr. John on this one.

Sandra K.

This was incredibly interesting. I hadn't kept up with the Daybell / Vallow cast of characters in recent months. Came across JR's rant and then watched an interview conducted on JayIsForJustice from a year ago. What a contrast in demeanor and affect. Dr. John helped me understand what's going on with Julie. I appreciate his compassionate assessment with a large dose of truth. Eye opening!

Leanne Volo

I feel that Julie Rowe has already suffered a mental break. I also think she is trying to keep her shift to reality at bay. She seems to be loosing the fantasy aspect and the fact that on many levels she is being called out on her beliefs. She is obviously fighting tooth and nails to keep a grasp on her "reality". Anyone who publicly feels the need to set the record straight in such an obvious tantrum is very much struggling with some demons.

Ginger Price

I just love that Dr John was so empathetic toward Julie Rowe. Her latest crazy rant had me laughing at first and then I started feeling sorry for her and I really think so much more of Dr John after hearing his level of empathy right from the start.

Chanda 86

Just joined Patreon. It's so nice to have a safe place without all of the negativity that is sometimes on You Tube. I was really curious about this topic because I just came across Julie's video the other day and I really wanted to know what the both of you thought. This was great and you both are so kind and have so much empathy. I'm just really excited to be a part of the community! 💙

Heather Zolis
>>62674586

Could you please provide links to the medical/scientifically recognized journals and publications you mention? No?