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'Achilles, great as you are, don't be vengeful. They are dying out there, all of our best. God forbid I ever feel the spite your nurse in your heart. You and your damned honour!'

Welcome back to the Trojan War, where the two armies continue to suffer devastating loss after loss. Today we're finally going to see what it takes to bring Achilles to the fight.

We're discussing anagnorisis, aristeia, the spirit of friendship, the meaning of love, heroic existential despair, Homer's metaphors for death, the pain of war, pre-cinematic storytelling, the gift of fear, comedy vs tragedy, anxiety of death, and much more.

Please do feel free to enjoy the discussion even if you haven't read these parts of Homer's Iliad yet. You can enjoy our talk before, during, or after your reading in the way that best suits you.

Timestamps:

0:00 the Trojan War rages on

2:00 the regret of Agamemnon

3:00 what does anagnorisis mean?

5:00 the reparations of Agamemnon

7:00 the heroes petition Achilles

8:00 love as feeling vs action

10:00 the spirit of friendship

12:00 in the end, all die the same

13:00 does Achilles have PTSD?

14:00 our hero’s existential despair

15:00 how old is Achilles? 

16:00 how can we forgive betrayal?

18:00 Achilles refuses the apology

20:00 two potential fates for Achilles

22:00 a heart of flint and malice

24:00 the virtue of generosity

25:00 the danger of apologising

26:00 appreciation for translation

28:00 sleepless night for the men

30:00 a scene of Greek espionage

31:00 ancient armour contains lineage

32:00 Odysseus & Diomedes vs Dolon

34:00 merciless nature of the Greeks

36:00 night time attack on the Thracians

37:00 symbolism of war chariots

38:00 the mythology of Tithonus

40:00 the similes in Homer’s Iliad

42:00 Agamemnon vs Iphidamas 

44:00 pain of war vs pain of labour

46:00 warriors like forces of nature

48:00 the wounding of Odysseus

49:00 did the poet experience war?

50:00 Hector returns to the battlefield

51:00 Ajax remembers who he was

52:00 pre-cinematic storytelling

53:00 Achilles watches the battle

55:00 Homer’s art of juxtaposition

57:00 omens, fate & gift of fear

59:00 Sarpedon and Glaucus

1:00:00 motivation to enter battle

1:02:00 Alexander Pope’s translation

1:04:00 conflict of Zeus vs Poseidon

1:06:00 how to inspire great action

1:08:00 hero as personified ideal

1:10:00 gods are helicopter parents

1:11:00 dealing with ancient names

1:12:00 Idomeneus vs Deiphobus 

1:14:00 poetic version of fight/flight

1:15:00 Alcathous cut down in battle

1:16:00 epic convention of aristeia 

1:17:00 the heroic figure of Aeneas 

1:18:00 Emily Wilson on the Iliad

1:19:00 how to make an epic epic

1:20:00 the fury of Menelaus

1:22:00 Homer’s metaphors for death 

1:23:00 Polydamus advises Hector

1:24:00 the downfall of great heroes

1:26:00 do we pity Agamemnon?

1:27:00 the rebuke of Odysseus

1:29:00 on finding Homer funny

1:31:00 Hera’s seduction of Zeus

1:32:00 Homeric pathetic fallacy

1:34:00 conflict of Hector vs Ajax

1:36:00 the wounding of Hector

1:38:00 pastoral description of death

1:40:00 Hector clashes with Ajax

1:42:00 earth flowed black with blood

1:44:00 Christopher Logue’s War Music

1:46:00 Patroclus goes to Achilles

1:48:00 on male-male relationships

1:50:00 Patroclus dons Achilles’ armour

1:52:00 Achilles warns his friend

1:54:00 the Myrmidons enter battle

1:55:00 Patroclus vs Sarpedon

1:56:00 Hector cuts down Patroclus

1:58:00 Achilles has a reason to fight

1:59:00 our next reading assignment 

Resources to Explore:

  • Philosophy: Aristotle's Poetics is the earliest surviving work of Greek dramatic theory and still remains the most impactful and influential. Although short, the work is incredibly rich and will complement your reading of almost any great work of literature - but especially Homer, who Aristotle meditates upon consistently throughout. Another complementary work from Aristotle when it comes to the epics of Homer is The Nicomachean Ethics. His exploration of the noble virtues is fascinating to consider in light of the behaviour of the heroes we find in the Trojan War. You might find it interesting to consider the writings of the great Stoics who came long after Homer (Epictetus, Seneca, Aurelius) up against the heroes of the Iliad. What advice would they give to the wrathful Achilles? What would they say to his fear of death? How could their advice have helped one navigate the inter-camp strife?

  • Theatre: If you enjoyed our previous recommendation of Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida, you might like to check out Timon of Athens for another complementary play from the English bard. Another Shakespeare work to stack up against Homer would be Henry IV Part One. For some more Sophocles, you might like to read the play Ajax or Rhesus by Euripides (authorship disputed). If you fancy an antidote to all the tragedy, then a foray into ancient comedy would be rewarding. I would recommend The Frogs by Aristophanes, which satirises the great tragedians.

  • Poetry: If you're loving the lore and the poetry of this profound epic, you might be interested to pick up a copy of the Homeric Hymns (and here's a reading of one in Ancient Greek). Attributed to Homer in ancient times, we now see these hymns as the composition of many different poets working in the tradition. We also leveraged Homer's mention of the mythology of Tithonus into a reading of Alfred, Lord Tennyson's great poem. Tennyson is always a great one to read and reread, and we'll be returning to him when we get to the Odyssey. If you're interested in the genealogy of the gods, then Hesiod's Theogony might intrigue you. Here's another idea: use your reading of Homer to refresh your memory of the great titan of epic literature that is Dante. We saw that the Florentine poet consigned the characters of Achilles, Paris, and Helen to the second circle of hell, whilst Odysseus and Diomedes were trapped in a single flame in the eighth circle of the Inferno. If you're interested in what Ancient Greek poetry sounded like, check out this phenomenal video.

  • Retelling: Madeline Miller's 2011 novel The Song of Achilles sees the story of the Iliad and the Trojan War from the point of view of Patroclus, with a focus on his relationship with Achilles. Miller's lifelong love of Homer began when her mother read the Iliad to her in childhood and this creative reimagining took her ten years to write. In addition to Homer, she drew inspiration from Ovid, Virgil, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, and Apollodorus. Miller also has some splendid interviews and talks that you might find thought-provoking here and here. And thank you to readers who have recommended Pat Barker's The Silence of the Girls, which gives us the perspective of Briseis, and is part of the Women of Troy series.

  • Action Exercise: Last time I challenged you to begin committing one of your favourite passages of the Iliad to memory. I'd love to expand the challenge now and recommend you locate another passage. This time, rather than specifically focusing on learning it by heart, reread your chosen lines, meditate upon them over the course of several days, paraphrase them in your mind, and apply their wisdom to whatever you're dealing with in your life right now. If you do this, and really bring yourself to your chosen lines, you may just find that memorisation happens naturally as a by-product. Homer may also end up guiding you and providing some wise advice that influences how you are going to face the current stage of your own hero's journey.

Reading Assignment:

Our next discussion will cover books seventeen to twenty-four, which will take us through to the sublime climax of this epic masterpiece. And we will be discussing this next leg of the battle this coming weekend.

Now we're going to watch on as Achilles finally enters the fight. So continue bringing yourself to Homer's epic, making notes on any themes or ideas that capture your attention and imagination.

Questions to Consider:

1) How would you sum up Homer's beliefs about warfare?

2) Why doesn't Achilles accept Agamemnon's apology immediately?

3) What do you value most about the epic tradition?

4) Why does Homer still speak to so many readers today?

And please do share with us your impressions, favourite passages, and striking ideas from the middle of Homer's Iliad. If this is your first reading, does the epic meet your expectations? If this is a reread, is the experience any different this time around?

Happy reading, everybody!

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Comments

Hannah

Couldn't help but think of The Iliad whilst the British and Irish Lions warmed up for the Australia test this morning! Gearing up for battle 🤣

Linda Collins

just finished the lecture of The Iliad—an excellent and thought-provoking section of the poem. These chapters hold the emotional core of the story: Achilles still withdrawn, unmoved by gifts or reasoning, while his friend Patroclus takes his place on the battlefield—and ultimately falls under Hector’s sword. As Patroclus dies, whispering Achilles’ name with his final breath, I felt something familiar in the moment and for some reason reminded me of The Sopranos. The dynamic feels eerily similar: the emotional codes of honor, brotherhood, and vengeance. There’s an unwritten rule in both worlds—when someone you love is taken, you respond. Not out of duty, but because it’s the only response that makes sense. Patroclus’ death isn’t just tragic; it sets everything in motion. Achilles doesn’t return to battle for glory or country—he returns for him. This kind of friendship—chosen, tested, and sacred—feels central to both. It isn’t soft, but it runs deep. And when it’s broken, the consequences are swift and bloody. It’s also just funny to think of Tony as Zeus and Carmela, Hera. Speaking of blood—one of the things that struck me in this stretch of the poem is just how graphic and strangely visual Homer makes the death scenes. They’re vivid, brutal, almost comical in their theatrical detail. One that stood out comes in Book XIII, where Homer gives us this image: “Then Meriones caught him, Antilochus’ comrade, Beheading him clean with a sword-stroke just under the ear, And his head dropped, helmet and all, to the ground While the spear still stood fixed in his eye— A gruesome scene to see.” You can practically see the shot framed like a film—slow motion, maybe some dramatic music, blood spraying as the helmet clatters to the dirt. It’s the kind of stylized violence that would feel right at home in a mafia scene: sudden, merciless, and deeply personal. In The Sopranos, a single death often echoes out across episodes, reshaping alliances and exposing buried emotions. The same happens here. Patroclus’ death is more than a plot point—it’s the emotional hinge of the poem. It wakes Achilles from his stubborn silence. But it’s not honor that move him—it’s grief, loyalty, and rage. Timeless!! In these chapters, Homer reminds us: war is not just about strategy or fate. It’s about human bonds—who we mourn, who we protect, and who we become when someone we love is lost.

Susan Kelley

I have a question. I’m trying to decide what to pick up to read. When is the lecture on how to read The Three Musketeers coming? Tomorrow or next week? I just finished Dandelion Wine by Bradbury. It was the most beautifully written book I’ve read in a long time. Just delicious. It made me nostalgic for my grandparents and summer days and nights before all of the technology we have. 🥹🥹🥹

Marie

Just finished the book. Wow. How beautiful and moving. I have so much to process and think about. Cannot wait for the lecture and discussion tomorrow!

Greg

Yes, I couldn’t agree more with your last observation, Linda. I think Homer is also reminding us that honor, glory, pride are subordinate to relationships, friendship and love.

Tom

Tragical-Comical in The Iliad: Final Reflections Approaching the end of The Iliad, a line from Hamlet kept coming to mind: “The best actors in the world, either for tragedy, comedy, history, pastoral, pastoral-comical, historical-pastoral, tragical-historical, tragical-comical-historical-pastoral, scene individable, or poem unlimited.” But why? Well, one point comical, the other tragical. In this bookclub, as I dive into reading more classical literature than I have in years, I have to admit that I have caught myself several times being quite too serious about it all. In the closing chapters of The Iliad, I realized at some point that I let myself become less aware of the comical and the absurd right in front of my face. For instance, just one example: “Hector hurled at him – a sudden glint of the spear – but Ajax saw it coming and dodged the bronze shaft, just by a hair, and the weapon caught Schedius, gallant Iphitus’ son and Phocia’s finest man.” This has happened so often in this book that I almost had to laugh. I’d hate to be the guy standing NEXT to the guy being targeted. He’s always the first to go. I chuckled inside as it put me in mind of South Park and their “Oh my God, they killed Kenny” meme. Another ridiculously repetitive theme is the poor little egos of these great fighting men being vulnerable and almost impotent against insults and reverse psychology. How many times was the momentum of battle shifted because someone on the same side of some warrior said, “You suck. You’re a coward. How could we ever follow you?” Every time, like Pavlov’s dog, with ego so easily wounded, the emotional cuck responds by running headlong into battle. So weak these great warriors, possessed of characters that are more like bullies than heroes. On the more tragical side, this novel has constantly brought me into conversation about the relationship between God(s) and Man. First, with all these gods, no one needs to take any responsibility for their behavior. But worse, in the closing chapters of the book, it is no longer clear if it is men fighting or the gods fighting with men as their puppets leaving me to wonder how often have men been puppets or pawns for religious ideology? One line that absolutely grabbed me was when Achilles and Priam were having a real human conversation over their shared grief. Achilles says, “So the immortals spun our lives that we, we wretched men live on to bear such torments—the gods live free of sorrows.” I was left to wonder how much suffering has been perpetrated in the name of religion and to consider who has suffered for it. Certainly not the gods.

Lily

I enjoyed this post of yours Tom more than clicking the like button. I am synced with your thoughts and your experience reading this book. Having finished, I can say that the scene with Priam and Achilles is one of my top two moments in the epic (feels very wrong to refer to it as a book) P.S. tell us please what you enjoy playing on that cello

Aida Farrell

I've been thinking about the passion each translator must have had for translating Homer. Such a complex and challenging effort, such deep study and so many choices in how to render their interpretation. For instance, Fagles seems dramatic and lyrical while Wilson is so modern yet just as emotionally powerful. Even the opening lines suggest a different framing: Wilson interprets Achilles rage almost as a natural disaster (cataclysmic) while Fagles seems to approach the story fatalistically (doomed).

Xaph

Aida, I agree, and translators are - first readers, then interpreters and only then translators. I think in that process, the "Rorschach test-ness" of a work is even more prominent then in "just" reading. What I mean is - the translators reveal themselves significantly in their translation (interpretation).

Jamie Newman

Ive been listening to "Achilled Come Down" by Gang of Youths on repeat lately...

Dayna

Sweeping & cinematic but so large it eludes that art form. I have loved everyone’s comments but unfortunately this book has not enthralled me. It has had some moments for me & I am pushing on but not really enjoying it. Perhaps it is the translation but I don’t know if I would ever attempt another. How many ways can a head roll?

sarah f.

I’m pushing it as well over here! (1st time reading the book) Started w/ the Fagels and switched to the Lombardo in Bk9 and it’s going much better for me. My 2cents only from listening to Ben, if this was originally a poem to be recited, the audience’s attention and imagination would have to be kept - so gore and vivid details had to be created + a 10 yr war = lots of head rolling. But, I had the exact feeling as you!! Maybe Athena will move the pages forward for us. 🤙🏽

Yixi

Reading Homer makes me think what’s really important in terms a life worth living: not wealth, not talents and smarts, not success and fame, … but it’s the human heart and deep connection we experienced. Even though it doesn’t last forever, once experienced, it keeps giving in all sorts of ways. Not sure if I’m making any sense.

Diana Upp

Finally making headway in Fagels. Found the humor at Book 14 line 375. Hera is seducing Zeus and he really wants her. It is like a skit from SNL Two Wild and Crazy Guys. Compares her to his other daliances. I guess he thinks it works since he is a god. LOL