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Supernatural 10x21 Full Reaction! (Patreon)

Published:
2024-08-21 12:45:01
Imported:
2026-06
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Supernatural 10x21 Full Reaction - EA - Sesskasays

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Ryan

Another one of those episodes it probably won't surprise you was very controversial with the fans. But it goes way beyond that, because absolutely NO ONE involved with the show besides Robert Singer thought that killing Charlie was a good idea, and the result was one of the most spectacular in-production explosions in TV history. Maybe the most impressive part was when Kim Rhodes said if they ever decided to kill off Jody, she would simply refuse to participate in it, and she didn't care about the effect it would have on her career because maintaining her good relationship with the fans was more important, so if you ever tuned in and Jody was suddenly a different actress, it's because she's going to die. This culminated in a convention appearance where the moment a fan brought it up during a Q&A, every single other person onstage pointedly turned their back on Singer as he spluttered through a statement that it was "just where the story took us." Which of course was roundly mocked as the fans pointed out how horribly contrived the script had to be in numerous spots to create the circumstances of her death (leaving one of the guy's arms totally free, SERIOUSLY?), and it was a popular fanart subject for a while to have "the story" making them write the episode at gunpoint. As for me, this is where I jumped off the show entirely, and no matter how many good things I've heard about the remaining five seasons, this left such a bad taste in my mouth that I've never gone back and even the rest of this show I used to adore is retroactively tainted.

DieWinterkirsche
>>147163305

Yeah, it was a pretty shitty move to kill of Charlie basically as a "casualty" - it wasn´t some epic death or sacrifice she deserved, she was just butchered off-screen for shock-value. I´m kinda curious abozt one thing: Since this is were you stopped watching the last time, will you continue watching the reactions now? :)

Thomas Corp

The show already killed Bobby, the best character of the show. Now they have killed Charlie, who came in at a very close second for best character of the show. “There is no curse in elvish, entish, or the tongues of men for this treachery!” I made the mistake of watching this episode on a work night. Made it through the next day at work ok, though I was tempted to say to people, “Do me a favor, don’t talk to me for a little while.” I want to talk about other stuff that you talked about, and I’m too distracted by what happened to Charlie. Briefly touching on other things. You did have the shared nervousness that what Sam was doing unbeknownst to Dean would ultimately become beknownst to Dean, (though of course, it was already knownst to us) and it would not be pretty. Dean reminds us that he is the older brother. Sam thinks he’s got the good poker face, but against a big brother, said poker face doesn’t hold up. I also note I wouldn’t be able to get as far as Sam got with his deception as I can’t drive, nor do I sneak about as much as Sam was doing. Touching on the Frankenstein reveal, an interesting enough development. I've got my own issues with how the show is using the historical events as villainous window dressing for them, making me say, “Right, well, that’s just lazy writing being used as a crutch, what the fuck ever. Moving on.” You mention how I know the feeling when there are those villainous characters who you don’t want to like, yet you live for them. No, not really, I’ve never gotten that considering since preschool, there was the immediate rapport and intense connection with the Sith and the Disney Villains, hence my morality is fucked. Love how you were looking forward to the dynamic of Charlie and Rowena’s dynamic. In terms of humor, I did get the big laugh of Crowley with the darts. And when he jabbed the cluster into the guy, I quipped, “NICE grouping.” thus when the guy said the same, I got a huge laugh. Speaking of Crowley, he has freely admitted that killing him is possible, just bloody difficult. The show has now answered my thought of the book being indestructible. Still curious about if Sam hadn’t done the switcheroo, how bad it would have been had they tried to destroy the book. And I do agree how Charlie went through a lot of growth in her time on this show, well shown when she smashes her gear, loved your reaction to that, even if my heart was sinking in dread. And there was Felicia SELLING Charlie’s line to Rowena, where she affirms, “Sam and Dean are like my brothers. I love them.” It made me sob as, in Charlie’s way, it has the same energy as Bobby saying to the reaper that he didn’t care if it was his time to go, and when asked why, Bobby growled, “Because they’re MY BOYS!” and later when he said to the shadow of his father, “As fate would have it, I adopted two boys, and they grew up great. They grew up heroes! So, you can go to HELL!!” It just affirms that much like how Bobby was the boys’ dad; Charlie became their sister.

Thomas Corp

Now to the big matter at hand. Charlie’s death. I hear what you’re saying of not being tremendously surprised as this has been a thing of this show: loved ones of Sam and Dean being unnecessary casualties. It is a vicious cycle that repeats again and again and again. Here it reaches a nadir as this was so beyond offensively STUPID for the show to do this, and in the manner in which it was done. By the way, you asked is there a window in the motel room. Yes, as a fucking matter of goddamn fact, there WAS in fact a goddamn window that Charlie could have escaped through. Right in that bathroom no less. Felicia even pointed that out as I’ve heard, and dear Felicia was ignored. Just the way the show just shows her horrifically killed in such a disgustingly insulting manner that I’m genuinely amazed the show didn’t LITERALLY stuff Charlie into a goddamn fridge. Oh, I am LIVID about this one. And as Ryan has commented, everyone in the cast and crew felt the same, save for Singer, the ASSHOLE. Jensen, from the sound of it went ballistic. Felicia tried to argue against it. Robbie Thompson who, as I understand it, is the writer who created Charlie, fought tooth and nail to prevent Charlie’s completely unnecessary death, alas, to no avail. Misha, I’m told had the most civil response that he didn’t actually SAY he was opposed to the decision, but he did get his point across. The best response was from Kim Rhodes as Ryan mentioned. And I don’t know if this ends up being a spoiler or not. If it is, I do apologize, whilst noting that this piece of information needs to be shared for the sheer badassery alone. Kim was SO furious about Charlie’s death, she outright said that if the show was planning to do something like that to Jody, they may as well just fire her and get someone else to play Jody for that. And Kim did not give a single solitary droplet of shit if this cost her future work, she was sticking to her guns on that one, God bless her. The writing for Charlie’s death also makes zero sense, and it brings us to what Ryan brought up, the consistent defense that Singer has used is that it was “just where the story took us.” To which, my response is this, “Oh, that’s “just where the story took us.” that’s what you’re going with? That’s the sword you want to fall on? Ok, well, let me put my rebuttal as plainly and succinctly as possible. First, take a big step back, and literally FUCK YOUR OWN FACE!!! Now I don’t know what fucking century your mind is in that you think you can subject Charlie to this goddamn warped and twisted homage to Lillian Hellman, and that pile of horsehit excuse is going to fly and justify that. But in a little thing we call the twenty-first century, that excuse flies about as much as a penguin. So, if you think people are going to accept that, you better think again, otherwise the fans are going to fucking BURY YOU!! You understand me!?” Now to talk about your reaction to Charlie’s death. It was already getting me badly seeing your nervousness and dread. Then you see Charlie, and your reaction eviscerated my heart and soul as much as your reaction to Bobby’s death did the same. The pain in your eyes alone made me sob and obscenely cut my heart into tatters. I appreciated all of your thoughts and comments after the reaction. This one hurts beyond belief, and I wanted to give you a hug so badly, Jess. Like with Bobby’s death, it feels wrong to thank you for this reaction, so instead reiterate my appreciation for what you had to say in this one. Your love of Charlie that you expressed meant a lot, Jess.

Ryan
>>147180091

This also happened to be right around the time that it was starting to become a big talking point how pervasive a problem Bury Your Gays was, though it was still a year away from reaching its biggest point when about a dozen shows just happened to all do it at the exact same time in the spring of 2016 (the best remembered being Lexa from The 100, thank you so bloody much Fear the Walking Dead). I guess this gave us a solid answer to Dean's question literally about Robert Singer, how big a douchebag do you need to be to name a character after yourself? I imagine they pretty much knew they had to keep the actual death offscreen, as their only ghost of a chance that people wouldn't notice the window. Reminds me of William Shatner warning Turnabout Intruder's director that even in those pre-Internet days when connecting with other fans took a lot more effort, his walking in the wrong direction to leave the conference room would become this big notorious thing that would be perpetually ridiculed. Much appreciated quote, ironically coming from a guy who would definitely pull something like this himself, and might even try to have the actress actually killed on camera.

Virginia Slothour-Hudnall

Personally, I didn't take issue with the fact that they killed Charlie. Trauma & loss are major themes of the show and, plot-wise, they did need a tipping point for Dean. I do, however, agree with everyone who says that her death felt contrived. It makes sense that Charlie would want to get away from Rowena. It DOESN'T make sense that Sam would need Cas to watch BOTH of them TOGETHER. Cas could've easily taken Charlie somewhere for a few hours. He was primarily there to protect her, after all, or so they said. Rowena was fine to be left alone (at least for short periods of time) as long as she was in iron chains. Sam's been leaving her on her own while he sleeps & eats & gets groceries, after all. So why couldn't they leave her alone now? The only reasonable explanation is that Sam was stressed because Dean was getting suspicious and he wanted Cas to just problem-solve on his own, so he was giving him knee-jerk answers instead of carefully-considered ones. And the show DOES hint that Sam is killing himself trying to supervise Rowena's every waking minute (Dean tells him he looks like crap; he's gone at all hours; he's not getting much sleep), but it still doesn't FEEL like Rowena's much of a risk while chained up by herself. Like, are we supposed to think she's going to slip out of her chains or something? Does she have allies waiting in the wings who might find & free her? The writing just didn't do a great job of making us feel a threat from Rowena being left alone. And it didn't do a great job of making us feel like Charlie had no option but to ditch Cas & run to a random motel. (At a minimum, she could've called Sam & asked for another safe house location — insisted she wasn't going back to where Rowena was being held & told him it was help her find a safe alternative or accept that she was going to just do her best on her own.) I liked Charlie, but I don't mind the show killing characters I like. In fact, I appreciate that they don't shy away from it. But I do think it's a shame they didn't handle the plotting better. I get why folks were outraged. It was sloppy.

Thomas Corp
>>147186283

Yeah, you raise the further points of how really none of this made much sense, such as how Rowena has been left alone before, so it really doesn’t wash as to why she can’t be left alone this time. I do note your point about Sam being stressed as he is due to Dean’s suspicions and trying to circumspectly supervise Rowena, which whilst that does work as an in story excuse, still feels like a stretch to allow what happened to happen. Nor, like you said, does the show adequately sell the threat of Rowena in this scenario. Likewise, there really is no sensible answer as to why Charlie just vamoosed to the motel as she did. I respect how you say you don’t mind the show killing Charlie given the themes of trauma and loss that the show contends with. The appallingly sloppy manner in which the show made Charlie’s death happen just really is so unbelievably offensive on multiple levels.