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Sacred Symbols+, Episode 455 | The Myth of the Modern Audience with Marek Tyminski (Patreon)

Published:
2025-05-17 16:00:14
Edited:
2025-05-21 00:18:49
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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Please welcome CI Games' founder and CEO Marek Tyminski to Sacred Symbols+. If you've not heard of CI Games before, they're a two decade-plus veteran studio headquartered out of Poland, with a workforce dispersed throughout Europe. Though they're perhaps best-known by many for their long-running Sniper: Ghost Warrior franchise, it's their popular action-RPG Lords of the Fallen that brought Marek himself to my (Colin's) attention. In an industry consumed by culture warring, CI Games has instead decided to embrace a different course of action, eschewing what they refer to as "the myth of the modern audience," opting to make games they think actual enthusiasts will enjoy. The results have helped their game, but potentially complicated their image, and either way, I knew I needed to talk to the leader of a studio that's boldly taking on gaming's prevailing cultural forces.

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Comments

TheWubbz

Lords of the Fallen is a great game. While its bosses don’t live up to the Dark Souls level of quality…the aesthetic of the world alone is so sick. Definitely worth a play for fans of the genre and they’ve put a lot of free updates into it since launch

David Middleton

Dude I love Lords of the Fallen, I'm well up for this. Thanks guys.

Otacon

I just finished this game this morning, got the radiant ending. Imo I like it more than dark souls 1-3 because the gameplay is there and not insane hard bosses. I think Colin would like it if he tried it.

Stewy108

As a fan of LOTF and observing from afar some of the recent hubbub surrounding the studios social media account, really looking forward to this one.

BigDumbStupidIdiot

Who even makes up the "modern audience?" Is it a made up marketing term for blue haired weirdos in LA? Is it MAGA people screeching about woke? It just seems like a scapegoat term for bad design.

Mason M

We’re all trying to find the guy who did this it could literally be any one of us

Powerman

I have beef with Lord of the Fallen. Not over any of the culture war stuff but over the game's bad performance. Wow that 2023 game is a disaster and can barely run. Performance so bad I can hardly take anyone seriously associated with that game talking about game development.

Wesali

Looking forward to this one. A studio that has become entrenched in the culture war, and somehow become better off for it..

Dante B

Just bought Lords of the Fallen based on this conversation. The deluxe edition is on sale right now, 75% off. $22 bucks.

Chris Evans

Great podcast Colin. What he’s saying is so obvious it’s ridiculous the conversation even needs to be had but unfortunately this is where we find ourselves

Jeff in NOLA

That’s his point; it doesn’t exist

DD

Great to hear someone in the game’s industry actually talk authentically for once

Lou Sassle

I get it's a funny stereotype but... I live in LA. It's mostly Asians and Latinos. Very rare to see "blue hair" lol.

BigDumbStupidIdiot

Where are these blue haired people? In downtown Omaha, the super left wing people are all hipsters doofuses. Has there never been any blue hair people?

Evan Westendorf

The anti-modern audience stuff that people bring up is just as insufferable as the "woke" stuff people complain about imo. I just rolled my eyes at pretty much every example Colin brought up. The fact that the dev was also very vague and not specific when talking about what the modern audience even is tells you a whole lot about said movement. I do appreciate the conversation. Would be interested to see if Colin balances this out w an interview that argues for the modern audience

Wall bouncing in WW1

So is the “modern audience” just the multicolored hair types? Or is it some other vague boogeyman? The lords of shadow update seems cool but I doubt people’s newfound interest stem from a silly character creator change.

Evan Westendorf

Yeah that was a VERY weird thing that the dev said. I have no doubt it tripling in sales had nothing to do with some options change in a character creator. The "modern audience" boogeyman is just the "woke" boogeyman w a new coat of paint, thrown out by very fragile people complaining about nothing important 99% of the time. Oh no, they called body types Type 1 and Type 2 instead of Man and Woman. Did you still create the dude you wanted? Yes? Then stfu.

Wall bouncing in WW1

I mean to be fair I don’t know the speed of culture so if he’s in Poland maybe it takes 10-15 years for the fringe elements to bother relatively conservative demographics. And conservative From a general standpoint not necessarily political.

Evan Westendorf

I just find it disingenuous how they frame this conversation. Just say "the current political climate leans conservative and were cowtowing to the dominant culture for profit" rather than framing it like some sort of conviction. Colin is almost 40 years old and his example is a non-historically accurate pride flag he came across for a second in a Mafia game and not, the entirety of Spiderman 2's script ruining that game because it felt like i was in a room full of race and genders studies scholars instead of an entire New York City of different people. One of these things actually ruined 40 hours of a game for me, because it was a constant thing i had to deal with. The other is something anyone w any level of maturity would see, understand, and move on from.

BigDumbStupidIdiot

The whole podcast was two 40-somethings being mad at 2016 Twitter. They still believe the non-existent blue haired lefty are ruining gaming. The only people online I see bitching about culture war are anti-vaxxers whom butt chug raw milk.

Paul Knickerbocker

To me, the modern audience is anyone who cares or gets offended by the character creation one way or the other.

Wall bouncing in WW1

All in all I think it was enlightening. I still prefer this from someone who actually participates in the game industry as opposed to other guests. I mean he’s forty from across the world the most I can expect is tolerance. There’s new stuff that freaks me out every now and then. And I have to take step back.

Caleb Peacock

Colin do you really think things were less racist and sexist back then or do you feel like for you it was lmao. There’s a big difference

Dante B

Racial tension in the US is higher than it has been in decades, absolutely. Can’t imagine arguing otherwise.

Zachary Beach

Daniel Vavra didn’t have to grovel before the anti-woke …just the opposite actually. That’s because he made one of the best games of all time. Unfortunately when you make the most mid souls-like though, your options are fewer. 👀

Black Detective in Dexter

Yes, we had largely moved past racism in the 90s and 2000s. It has come back in full force in the 2010s and 2020s, due to d.e.i., identify politics, etc. The constant need to make everything about race, gender, or what a person looks like. Back in those days we would celebrate and joke about our differences. Now we're not allowed to joke anymore so we just fight about our differences. It's much worse now.

Dennis

Yeah let's just ignore the rodney king riots I guess. And pretend there was no serious racial tension in the USA during this time.

Dennis

Wow this actually pretty accurate, because it fits unto both extremes.

Black Detective in Dexter

I was born in 88 so I was not tuned into the national news cycle in the mid 90s. I was 6 years old. That being said, I had white friends, black friends, Asian friends, and later on in my teen years, gay friends, etc. Nobody ever talked about race or sexual preferences. It wasn't at the forefront of everyone's mind the way it is now. You were just you, and nobody really thought twice about it. We were taught about the Civil rights movement and MLK in school. We were taught to judge people by the content of their character and not by their skin color or how they look. We were taught that those things, while being characteristics, did not define you. These days, it's the opposite. All we do is point out our differences now. Every one is perpetually a victim and your gender, race, sexual preferences are the only things people seem to care about now. So yes, things were better back then. I understand that people meant well with all this d.e.i. stuff, but it's gone too far. Morgan Freeman has a great quote when he was asked how do we end racism. He said "stop talking about it." And he's right.

Tim

I'd be confident it was more a case of oppressed groups being silenced in the past or not having the Internet/social media available to share their voice/opinion on said oppression, whether it be racism or misogyny etc

Tim

This was an hour of "woke bad" and vagueness.

Chris Evans

There is no modern audience that’s the point. Nobody wants any of this “progressive” nonsense

Dante B

No one is ignoring Rodney King but anyone who was old enough to live through that can absolutely tell you that what we are experiencing today doesn’t even hold a candle to that specific moment, unfortunately.

Chris Evans

There is no oppression in the US hasn’t been for decades

Graeme_Reaper

This conversation was super cringe all round. Getting annoyed by stuff like a body type in a character creator being called “type 1” is pathetic

Black Detective in Dexter

I mean, to each their own. I happen to think putting "Body type 1 and 2" in your game and being afraid to use the terms "male and female" which have been used to describe the 2 different genders that exist since the beginning of time is super cringe and pathetic. Seriously, the tactic of saying people are "cringe" for calling out this weirdness is so tired. Find a new argument.

Tim

100% correct about what exactly?

Evan Westendorf

There is a small fraction of the game buying public that does want this stuff. Should they not be catered to? Their money is the same as yours. Whats weird is bregading against these things existing literally every time, no matter how big or small. If you didnt play Lord of the Fallen until they made the options "man" and "woman" youre just as fragile of a baby as anyone on any other "side", full stop.

PairOfShuse

Having a male and female isn’t an extreme. It’s reality

PairOfShuse

Man some of these comments are delusional. Comparing anti vaxxers to gaming is completely unhinged. There are definitely tons of extreme progressives in gaming that club anyone who doesn’t agree with them and tries to get them fired, get policies pushed in those companies etc to push their agendas. If you don’t see that, you’re in a bubble.

Evan Westendorf

Nobody is denying that extremism exists. It exists on both sides. Just pointing out that seeing a gay pride flag in a game and then making it your entire personality to shit on said game and brigade against it, troll people, harass devs, is the same level of mental illness as some Anita Sarkeesian kinda shit.

Evan Westendorf

So many people got involved in anti-woke shit as a response to the morality hysterics of Kotaku and Polygon and Anita Sarkeesian, but are seemingly unable to see that they themselves have turned into the same hysterical people looking to label everyone and everything THEY dont agree with as morally wrong and sinister. Your "calling something Type A instead of Male is going to lead to male and female disappearing forever" is the same kind of energy as Anita saying killing a hooker in GTA is going to make dudes beat women. Its so far beyond reasonable to be absurd. Yet here you are. Please, resist the moral panic. Its all done by grifters and youre taking the bait.

Evan Westendorf

Changing Male and Female to Type 1 and Type 2 isnt trying to "change the norm". Its providing an option for those outside said norm, while also allowing those who are "normal" to still be able to use the character creator. Because you, as a straight man, can still pick the obviously male coded character and call him Steve. It doesnt limit you from being a "man" in a game in any way, while also allowing trans and non binary people an option as well. Its literally providing an option for everyone, not limiting anything.

Michael

I bought this game day 1 but haven’t gotten around to it yet. I’m a slow gamer.

Evan Westendorf

Its wild you call so many things gaslighting while also stanning for a movement that tells people that are born men, whos brain tells them they are women, that theyre in fact lying and/or "mentally ill" because YOU cant wrap your pea brain around a few more genders and it makes you mad. Like you have some high ground and know better than the decades of science supporting gender fluidity. It seems as though the only "truth" youre interested in is what you agree with. You dont believe in "science" if that science tells you trans people are normal, but you do believe the "science" that tells you that male and female are the only two genders. Im sure youd tell me that the progressive view is "politically motivated" while also ignoring that many of the studies that dispute there being a male and female binary are very much funded by conservative religious PACs.

Evan Westendorf

There very much is medical technology that has identified differences in brain structure and hormonal development that leads to someone having gender dysphoria. Ya know, a biological reason for these "feelings". But dont let truth and science get in the way of your "feelings" or....what did you call it? Mental illness?

Connor

As you say, it was a response to Kotaku, Polygon and the Anita Sarkseesian’s of the 2010’s liberal hysteria. So now there is a response that is the opposite. It doesn’t seem that hard to understand that there would be a cultural response to something so strong in the other way. What did you expect to happen? Just let the woke keep occupying the gaming sphere forever? The pendelum was always going to swing back and that is the anti-woke shift from people that we are seeing. Replacing male and female with type A and B is not that big of a deal in a vacuum but that decision seems about 5 years too late. It would have been seen as progressive then but culture shifts quickly and now its mostly seen as an eye roll decision to make 1% of the population give you brownie points.

Painkiller

Antisemitism definitely seems on the rise, particularly among colleges.

Misanthropic_Altruist

Why can’t the trans person just choose the same gender they are pretending to be in real life and spare us all the drama? Type 1 and type 2… What are we fucking androids now?

Morgan Remington

this type of bigotry is exactly why this community has the reputation it does. period.

Evan Westendorf

No, youre a human capable of knowing exactly what that means without throwing a tantrum. Itd be cool if more of you could act like it. Because crying about having to select Type 2 instead of "man" is a different side of the same cringe coin as a tran person saying their rights are being taken away cuz they had to select "man" instead of "Type 2". Its so over-dramatic as to be completely unserious

Diddy’s Lube Guy

Evan Westendorf more like Evan Walloftext am I right

Dennis

Maybe not. But when a video game chooses to have pronouns or has ''body types'' instead of genders and you throw a tantrum. I'm going to laugh at you, because that is an extreme reaction to something really insignificant. All I can think is, you must have really easy live if this is the thing that makes you angry.

Macro

I'm sorry but you've got to be the most sensitive whiny snowflake to be offended by "body type", it doesn't negatively impact a single person on this planet, you have to be lying or beyond reason to be offended

Dennis

Damn this was a frustrating conversation. It's just an hour of throwing around terms like, modern audience, woke and DEI without anyone having a consistent definition for any of these terms. And for guys like Grummz that's the point, you can literally slap these terms on anything as long as they stay vague (which is literally why even Colin had an eventual conflict with the guy). And the examples we get for pandering to much to the modern audiences are unfitting pride flags and using body types instead of gender? Baldur's Gate 3 pandered heavily to modern audiences. Does this mean it was successfull because they pandered, or did they just make an amazing game? But when the pandering happens in a game that sucks it is suddenly the only flaw that matters. Instead of bad story telling or lazy world building (although Colin usually recognizes this, which makes this convo all the more confusing).

Diddy’s Lube Guy

Yes I’m too timid for the vigorous intellectual debates in the Last Stand Patreon comments

Evan Westendorf

Imagine accusing someone else of projection when you have a persecution complex about an accomodation for .01% of the population, when everything has been catered to you since youve been born. Is gaslighting the term yall have landed on to barf back when you have nothing substantive to retort?

Unemployable troon

I truly don’t understand how something as simple as male/female can cause confusion. How detached from reality do you have to be…. It’s pathetic

Unemployable troon

If it’s not that big of a deal why do they keep going out of their way to do it? It’s not that anyone’s offended people are just noticing that it’s fucking weird

Macro

It is the exact same amount of effort as putting "gender" or "sex", nobody is going out of their way any more than they would to put those things, it doesn't negatively impact anyone in any way

Kevin (doo doo garbage)

I had to turn this off after a while. I feel that guys like this and Stuttering Greg are just wasting people's time with these culture war talking points. I do not get upset when I see body type 1/2. am a grown man with a job

Wesali

I am also a grown man with a job. Why are we changing language everyone uses, enforcing those changes, and gaslighting people into thinking it then doesn't matter after the fact? It's a slippery slope in my opinion and needs to be nipped in the bud.

Dennis

So we are just going to ignore the guy that had the most famous temper tantrum when you could select your pronouns in Starfield? When I notice something in a game that is different, I just shrug and go along with playing. I do not go on twitter screaming ''woke'', ''gaming is ruined'' and ''the downfall of the west has begun''.

Unemployable troon

I don’t do that either but I’m not going to pretend I don’t notice

Black Detective in Dexter

You can have a difficult life and still think the erasing of the terms "male and female" in today's society is weird and should be called out. This whole tactic of "Why do you care so much? Your life must be easy if you care about this. It's so cringe that you care about something so insignificant. I'm a grown man with a job. I'm too cool to care about this. If you care your pathetic." I could go on and on. All you people just parrot that same talking points. It seems the big one is now calling people that highlight this weirdness "cringe". Also, stating your a grown man with some type of employment, so you can't be bothered to care about this. Something like that. You all sound the same. You're so predictable.

Unemployable troon

If you’re that far outside the norm that you need to use terms like ‘male coded’ you deserve to be bullied 🤣

Dennis

Ok fair point I do not know your live and I was being a bit hyperbolic. Btw I said nothing about anybody being cringe or my employment. But I'm just genuinely so flabbergasted that people are so angry about this. And my guess it's because I just do not believe people want to erase male/female from society. Actually the exact opposite is happening in America where studies of the complexity of gender/sex are defunded or even banned. Then again if a selection screen does contain male/female I would not care either. I just don't believe It affects anything in negative way either way. Only one option make some people will feel more included, which I view as positive.

Dennis

That statement is kind of generic. Because I notice to. But I just think. "Oh that's cool, I hope it makes someone feel more included." And move on. Then again if character creator did say male/female I would not care. You know, because its just a character creator.

Pretty Much Satan

Interesting the comments on here that are lambasting the conversation and the begrudging of what it means in a broader sense; It’s everybody’s right to back what they want - but the smugness to think you’re morally superior because you are vying for a world in which Male/Female are replaced with Type A/B, then to try and gaslight people into thinking their assholes because their worldview doesn’t align with all that is connected with that; well, maybe you should really do a gut-check on just what kind of person you really are…

Unemployable troon

And right back around in the circle we go, if it’s not that important why do they feel the need to change it and why do morons get offended when people notice. There are only two genders all the rest of it is just unmediated mental illness that deserves mockery

Evan Westendorf

"Enforcing those changes" didnt the government just rule that there are only two genders they recognize? Sure doesnt seem like the woke are the ones "enforcing" anything. Youve got the backing of the government, in paper, and youre complaining about options in a video game you arent obligated to play lol

Evan Westendorf

"I notice" is just a way of saying it bothers you without actually using those words. You wouldnt be here commenting the way you are if it didnt bother you, so stop playing like it doesnt.

Kevin (doo doo garbage)

I presume that a company like Bethesda has data suggesting they have found a large enough group to cater to. That's capitalism. I think you as a consumer can have your issues, and voice them, but they tend to get coopted by the most annoying people, that why convo's like this tend to go nowhere. As far as changing language on the internet, I don't think anything has changed aside from moderation, considering the amount of forums there are we're you can say the wildest things

Evan Westendorf

Including pronoun options doesnt limit you from creating whoever you want. Thats the point. Its almost always an option in a game where you want to role play yourself into a fantasy setting. Including options for trans people doesnt limit straight people from creating the characters they want, but making a binary choice does limit trans people from making characters that reflect them. I think the overreactions on both end are super cringe. If a dev doesnt want to give you that choice, thats fine. If they do wanna give you that choice, thats fine too. Screeching so vehemently in either direction like youve been morally wronged is cringe. The anti-woke folks have become just as insufferable as 2014 Kotaku.

Evan Westendorf

I dont particularly like the term. X-coded gets thrown around so much it makes my eyes roll. But its very much appropriately applied in my comment.

Misanthropic_Altruist

Brother, I have only one thing to say to you: "Mekka lekka hi mekka hiney ho"

Unemployable troon

The stupidity of it should be pointed out but I don’t boycott games purely based on it or anything. And trans people can easily just pick the gender they are cosplaying. We shouldn’t be changing language around this small minority that would have been institutionalized a few decades ago

Madsines

This guy is a clown. I don't care what someone calls the character types or whatever, but at least be honest with your intentions. He claimed on Twitter that the only reason they had 'Type A/B' to begin with was due to mysterious 'industry pressure' ignoring the fact it's his game and he can do what he wants with it. He's only pivoting now because the game still isn't profitable and this whole thing is a hail mary to get in the good graces of the 'anti woke' crowd so they'll support the game. Like I said, just be honest about it and don't blame it on some ambiguous boogeyman.

Macro

Why are you triggered by this small minority existing? It's weird that you think about them so much, they simply want to be left alone to exist in peace

Thank you for your donation!

You know, maybe the reason it feels like the U.S. has gone backwards on issues like racism or sexism—especially when compared to the ’80s—is because those things were just more accepted back then. People didn’t talk about them as much, or they were expected to just deal with it. Nowadays, more people are speaking up and pushing back, so it feels like these issues are everywhere—but really, we’re just finally addressing them more openly and consistently. Minorities are claiming a seat at the table, and those who’ve always held all the power are starting to feel pushed aside—mostly because they’re afraid of losing that control. Meanwhile, some apologists love to highlight how colorful, vibrant, and multicultural the U.S. is, without actually confronting the deep-rooted issues that prevent it from becoming a truly just and inclusive society.

Connor

Tell that to Evan

Evan Westendorf

Language changes as society changes around it. Has since weve been able to communicate with eachother.

Macro

Yeah was it really better then or was Colin just less exposed to the issues

Dennis

As one of the people who is lambasting this conversation. I do not think I'm morally superior or that anyone is an asshole based on one opinion. But I do push back on these type of conversation, when I think they are vague or I disagree with something. I did so three years ago when Colin had Melonie Mac on +, because it was easy to see she was a grifter (for lack of a better word). Which even Colin admitted recently on sacred. Personally I'm genuinely just trying to find out the reasoning of people who are bothered by the type A/B thing. Why it matters so much to them. And best I can come up with ''they think it's some sort on concerted effort to change language, connected to an ideology they disagree with''. And without going into discussion about this statement, the people who think this might at least want to consider the following: Isn't being morally outraged by a small part of a game and connecting to broader societal subject exactly what SJWs and Anita Sarkeesian's of 2016 did?

Pretty Much Satan

I think you have a good point - and, while I obviously cant speak for everyone, I do think most people do not appreciate the language control and the wider implications behind what it means. I think it’s reductive to act like “why is it a big deal?” - it can be perceived as a big deal because of a couple reasons; language control. The redefinition of language and terms, in the context of what we’re talking about and what it’s connected too, isn’t just a throw away topic to people. For you, I presume since you don’t agree with those of us who do NOT support this, you look at it as people complaining about their worldview being rejected; you, and correct me if I’m wrong, believe the superior and more moral one, is that this “shouldn’t” matter. It’s an attempt at inclusivity because we live in a modern age where, even if it’s a massively small percentage of the population, we’re catering/supporting the widest views possible. Hence, “why does it matter?” And to those that it does it’s really just people holding onto antiquated beliefs and they’re objectively wrong; In my experience and belief, it’s not that at all. You’re asking people who have a worldview and have been beat down by the Anita’s, the liberal games media, and last decade of culture in media in general all parroting the SAME MESSAGE; all communicating the same thing you are. And then when they start to push back (last couple of years) and they get victories or imperfect proponents to the cause that support their worldview, IE Male/Female not Type A/B, they rally because what they feel is true to them is being represented and not repressed…. I feel to pretend that when the “woke” and hyper-liberal Push around sex, pronouns, identity etc started in earnest 2016 and say that people complaining now are no better than that which they hated then, you are missing the detail that this is the cycle; Anita et Al came on the scene as a way to either A) Grift her way thru a time period where she say an opportunity like so many accuse Grummz of And B) control the language, which therefore controls the thoughts and morality of others which then creates the type of world in which those people want; they don’t want dissenting view points. They want their viewpoint sad the dominant. While they can grift off of those who don’t like it, they don’t want it propitiated because to them it’s evil. So in closing a giant response you’ll like it read lol - I think you’ve got a valid view but my response is still that writing it off and comparing the reaction now to these situations is dismissive of 10+ years of a demographic being targeted and their worldview being challenged- which as I said initially - everyone has a right to believe and back what they want. But to try and brush it off like it’s no big deal undermines the very idea that reality isn’t shared, which is dangerous. We don’t share common fundamentals like Male and Female; sex not gender; etc etc…and the response is usually “why does it matter so much?” And the reason it does is the reason you don’t think it does.

Dennis

Wow thank you for eloquently explaining your position and actually trying to understand mine. This is why I comment on LSM post, because sometimes I actually learn. I guess my position is the importance sex/gender differs in every field. Science, sociology, culture, politics etc. So I decide if a reaction to a change is legitimate (in my opinion), based on the medium it happens in. Most of the reaction i see on here seem to boil down to the slippery slope fallacy. That things like the A/B body types will eventually lead to ''wider implications'' as you said at the top. Which I personally doubt, and in the US I actually see the opposite happen. The current administration has a very narrow view on sex/gender, and is not handling it with nuance needed in my opinion. And that is way more worrying to me than 100 ideology based changes in games. But thank you for explaining how some people might feel bombarded with these things over the last 10 years. And that my view might be skewed, because it aligns more with my personal views.

Pretty Much Satan

Thank you for being open to hearing my viewpoint, and for sharing yours! It’s tough because we all want to feel our voices and preferences are being respected and heard, but in the end it can devolve into mindless tribal bickering - and it’s such a fine line. But, your response is a rare thing with internet discourse - 98% of people don’t want to have these discussions, they just want to talk at, and usually, last each other; but you acknowledged the other side of the argument, whether you agree or disagree is totally valid - it’s the fact that you engaged from a place of true debate. So yay! Thank you!

Pretty Much Satan

You make a really good point here, and at this stage in our civilization- with the massive onset of how socially connected we are on a global scale - I definitely think there’s validity to what you’re saying. I feel the aspect that maybe is being overlooked is that we have also seen a rise in a very real phenomenon of social contagiousness that could never have existed outside the propagation of social media. I’d say It’s much easier to silo individuals into corrals and echo chambers in the last 10-15 years than it was in the 80’s when community and connections were made outside of a computer screen. Another facet is the types of bigotry, sexism, racism etc we are discussing- the definitions of these things hasn’t changed, but the context - socially and politically as certainly shifted - and that alone shifts the perception and power that these things have now vs in the 80’s or 90’s. For example, trans rights were nary a discussion or thought 35 years ago (yes there were trans identities but it’s not comparable to today) but now, every other Gen Z kid is having an identity issue and therefore claiming a self-identity that throws them into victim status; we have racial segregation being propagated by people of color as a way to be bigoted towards white people; The very the fact that Male and Female vs Type A/B is a heated topic, in my opinion, is indicative that the exploration of inclusivity and openness has become so muddled and perverted, that we aren’t addressing the real issues - we fabricating victimization and grafting it on things that therefore overshadow the real poignant discussions. I also feel what we are seeing is the age old adage of the pendulum swinging to far in one direction, course correcting, and possibly now swinging to far in another.

Chris Evans

This couldn’t be further off base

Chris Evans

Ask yourself why they refuse to use terms like make and female or man and woman and then you’ll see why you’re wrong

Pretty Much Satan

Maybe I’m not understanding your point: I am in the camp of using Male/Female; I understand the frustration around the change and control of the language. I’m not sure which side/viewpoint you’re advocating for?

Pretty Much Satan

Chris - this is the second time you’ve responded to me, yet don’t expand on why I’m wrong or off base; you don’t have the obligation too, but I’d be more than happy to engage in a good natured discussion if you presented your refutations with more detail; from what I can tell by your responses on this thread, we actually seem to agree? So maybe I’m confused.

Chris Evans

I wasn’t responding to you I responded to Romeo his assertions that there wasn’t less racial tension back in the 90s and early 2000s is flat out wrong. The hyper focus on race pushed by “progressives” has made things go backwards instead of forwards

Chris Evans

Again the response wasn’t for you but someone else in this thread.

Chris Evans

They were correct that hamfisting progressive political ideology into games is super transparent and annoying. The “modern audience” doesn’t exist.

Pretty Much Satan

Gotcha! Patreon is trying to destroy my sanity today on many levels. Thanks for the clarification

Chris Evans

Pointing out that hamfisting pride flags into a game where it wouldn’t make sense historically isn’t nearly the same thing as Anita sarkesian. You just sound uneducated when you make that argument

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Saying that racial tension is caused by the “hyper-focus on race pushed by progressives” rather than acknowledging that people are simply less willing to tolerate racism today reveals a deep unwillingness to confront how comfortably racist many people still are. This year alone, I’ve been called a “spic” three times—at work. And I live in Puerto Rico. The clients I work with are American. I’ve even had someone tell me that Trump is “going to deal with me,” and that my “days are numbered.” That’s not something I ever expected to hear, even after years working in tourism and interacting with people from all over. What I see is a sense of entitlement—entitlement to be cruel, to be openly racist. And when we speak out against it, when we demand accountability, we’re told it’s just progressive propaganda. That’s not only dismissive—it’s apologetic. These things do happen. We’re not imagining them. We’re just done pretending they’re acceptable. So yeah—FAFO. Latinos and other marginalized communities owe nothing to racist pieces of shit. And as a Puerto Rican, I owe absolutely nothing to colonizers. Not my respect, not my silence, not my patience.

Evan Westendorf

Call of Duty is just as much historical fiction as something like Mafia. They depict a time period, but arent trying to be 100% historically accurate. So yeah, a Pride flag might be out of place by a few years, just like some guns might exist in a COD game a few years before they were even invented. But there isnt nearly the same uproar about these guns "not making sense historically" as something like the Pride flag...because its not really about historical accuracy. Its never really about historical accuracy. So you can stop pretending.

Dennis

What do you mean exactly Chris? I still use male/female language and probably will all my life. I just don't subscribe to idea that a game using type A/B, or having a pronoun selection is in any way a serious problem that leads to any serious negative outcomes. I understand you probably think it's a small part of some broader agenda. And as ''pretty much satan'' explained to me when these things are happening frequently over period of 10 years, I can understand it makes you feel like it is some broader agenda. And some instances developers probably are pushed to do those things. But I personally think that it's just a liberal industry doing things that they view as inclusive. Sometimes succeeding and sometimes failing (like forcing latinx on everyone).

Pretty Much Satan

Romeo- While I can’t refute your personal experiences with racism, and it’s horrible what people have said to you, I feel you’re also extrapolating that racial tensions are only ratcheted up because - and correct me if I’m misunderstanding- racist(mainly white) people have just been able to get away with it and finally it’s being pushed back against. I definitely think there’s a level of truth to that, and yes there are definitely racist assholes who exist, but I have many friends who have had experiences that fly directly in the face of what you’re saying. Are their lack of experiences with racism or discrimination any less valid than experiences with it? The way it shaped and hurt you are completely valid, and I attempt to take nothing away from that, but the entitlement does go both ways. For example - the fact that you end your statement saying “colonizers”, which is a pretty obvious jab at white people, is a soft form of being derogatory. You, as a minority, even living in Puerto Rico, feel entitled and justified to say that to denigrate a whole swath of people. That doesn’t help anything. Who living today is a colonizer? What percentage of people would do what our ancestors did? We can never know and it’s truly not helpful to castigate, again what I’m assuming, white people so blatantly. And the hit on Chris’ point directly, a lot of us feel like racial tensions were not what they are now and how they’ve been bubbling up in the last 10 - 15 years because we’ve had politicians and culture propagating tension in ways that it wasn’t being propagated before then. It feels like we have entered some stupid postmodern era of racism; Regardless- I hope you don’t encounter anymore of those type of situations. While we may not agree here, we can agree that no one be needing that bullshit.

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I call them colonizers because calling a native Puerto Rican a racial slur is an act of racism backed by over a century of ongoing systemic oppression and terror against my people. That word isn’t just an insult, it’s a continuation of that violence. Honestly, calling it out is better than doing what I should do, which is beating the living shit out of them. I have zero pity. Just because I’ve had good experiences with some white people doesn’t mean I’m going to stay quiet when others show their true colors. So yeah, fuck em. And fuck their president.

Chris Evans

You’re the only one pretending here. The accuracy does matter, just like when call of duty made woman soldiers in WW2. It isn’t always about historical accuracy though, it just helps provide context in that developers are absolutely shoving their personal political ideology into games where it doesn’t belong. You being too ideologically captured to admit what’s obvious to everyone is a you problem.

Evan Westendorf

"Where it doesnt belong" They get to decide what goes into their art because they made it, therefore whatever they come up with "belongs" in THEIR art. The devs support gay people, gay people are in their audience, so they put a pride flag on a wall somewhere in a 40 hour game. If thats shoving it in your face, then youve got a very very low bar to clear for this kind of thing.

Owen S

I think I missed something along the way. I thought “the modern audience” was the corporate assumption that people want f2p and service elements in their games. “We can’t make big budget single player games, they don’t appeal as much to the modern audience” type of thinking. But now this conversation implies that the modern audience is just left-leaning people???

Evan Westendorf

A lot of this shit gets lumped together by people without any capability to tackle nuance, or whos arguments fall apart when you take things case by case.

Baker_Shop

Fantastic conversation. Agree on a lot. Based.

Jacob Lesperance

Lords of the fallen isn't good. Thats its biggest problem.

Kladknee .

Yet again, great interviewing from my dude ! Doesn't hurt to have a well spoken guest :) wonderful