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Please welcome Defining Duke co-host, YouTuber, and LSM stalwart MrMattyPlays back to Sacred+. Today, I (Colin) invited Matty to the show for a one-on-one conversation all about the ceaseless drama of the last month. July was a rough 31 days for physical games enthusiasts, and if Sony's recent financial Q&A is any indication, the Japanese corporation has made its decision and intend on sticking to it. Yet, the audience demanded Matty appear on the show, a much-needed voice from the physical realm that Sacred itself is perhaps missing, especially in light of Dustin's temporary absence. To not make this chat too repetitive, however, I tried to think of things to ask and talk about that are a little bit different. For instance, whose fault is this whole thing? Sony or the third parties? Is Sony taking the heat for a decision the entire AAA industry is thrilled about? Is it up to consumers to worry about the health of the companies they interact with? Will there be a rubber band effect on the loud and boisterous enthusiasts who have completely hijacked the conversation around games? Is there a difference between a customer and a user? How long should the digital ecosystem be expected to subsidize the physical one? Join us on our two hour long journey through an admittedly worn topic, viewed through a few different lenses you may not yet have considered.

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Denim Dan

Oh great, an episode about a topic that we have not heard anything about

Ryan

MATTY THIS IS THE LAST OF MY HAMON TAKE IT FROM MEEEEEE

Daddy T

Unexpected but goated combo

Walk Forward Cutscene

Love that Matty is on, but I gotta take issue with Colin’s show description. Digital gamers are not “subsidizing” physical gamers. When physical goes away, digital discounts will be less frequent and the discounts will be less generous. Colin likes donating full price to publishers, but the average person does not.

Supes

I agree it’s gotten old, but I’m glad Colin wanted to take the time to give some extra air time to a pro-physical LSM member since Dustin’s been out

Beef Burka

It's a claim I've never heard before. What is the basis for it? Gut feeling? Information from within the industry?

Frank

Great listen.

Bisexual Lighting Rigger

I love the comparison between Sony and Capcom. I'm ride or die for Capcom these days. I told all my friends how awesome RE9 and Pragmata were. They respect me and I return the favor. I liked Soros, I'm sure I'll love Wolverine. I'm not going to tell anyone. I'm going to match Sonys energy. Promote your own shit.

TreyDogg

Love this pair! By far the most games knowledgeable duo on the channel

The Blood of Dawn French

That’s because it’s total nonsense. Physical sales don’t lose money, they are the baseline for making profit. Digital then makes additional profit on top of it. So much is ignored. Like how physical games still often provide digital revenue within them today. Plus it ignores that they are two income streams for a single business. The assumption is that every physical game sold equals a lost digital game sold and that is obviously not 1 to 1 true.

Magnus

Colin DESTROYED Matty with FACTS and LOGIC (just kidding)

LastStandMedia

If every game sold on PS5 was sold at a typical physical split rather than digital, PlayStation would be running in the red. It’s pretty straight-forward, from my perspective. The numbers speak for themselves. A low double digit net income turns into a low double digit net loss, every quarter. To say the digital ecosystem is subsidizing the physical one is therefore a vast understatement, if anything. -Colin

Musty

I like Matty, but I feel like his takes are pretty disingenuous. He says at 39:17 he has accidentally blacked out PS5 for months as he wasn’t using the platform. This would then be an indicator that it’s not his main platform which is fine, but then he is either playing his Xbox or PC so he’s not buying physical games on those platforms either. If Matty was a PS5 gamer that only bought physical copies of his games then I would genuinely understand where he is coming from. However nobody can actually explain to me why this affects Xbox or PC players which Matty mainly is, if you play games on other systems this really doesn’t concern you. If people want to use the closed system argument then that’s fine but even then Xbox is a closed eco system and on PC you do have other options but majority of people used Steam, don’t epic give out free copies of some games and people still will refuse to buy there games there? Would love to actually see a response from Matty but doubt I’ll get it.

Walk Forward Cutscene

I’m talking about the customer’s POV. Digital discounts will be less frequent and less generous after physical goes away. I say that as a guy who is 90% digital at this point. Pitting the physical and digital audiences against each against each other because Sony’s bottom line is affected is the corporate version of Saul Alinsky.

Beef Burka

What is the physical split? 70-30 and another 5% lost to logistics? Sony reported physical was 80% of the market in 2015. At a 35% loss for every physical sale, that's 28% of the total (physical+digital) sales revenue lost to retail's share and logistics. If 20% of games are sold physically today, If 35% is lost for every retail sale, then only 7% of total (physical+digital) sales revenue is lost on retail's share and logistics. I see where you are coming from, saying that game prices need to factor in revenue lost to different factors, including retail sales, but with decent forecasting, those numbers are very minimal now, not to mention that it's Sony and other publishers who have decided that physical and digital sales will have the same MSRP. Nintendo has broken that paradigm and there's no reason it couldn't have been done on Playstation as well. It's not the physical ecosystem's fault that game prices are set the way they are, it's poor corporate strategy that's at fault. So, if game prices are chosen factoring in the loss of revenue to physical sales, the number is vanishing quickly. Just as easy to say that all Playstation customers are subsidizing failures like Concord and the Bungie acquisition, but many call those claims specious.

Gene S

Hi I am the author of the original #psblackout post. I don't think people are reading the entire thing. I understand its a bit long but its not that long.

Envydiel

That's not what a subsidy is Colin. It's also not the customer's concern where a business's margins are better. If Sony Corp can't maintain a profit with physical media, they won't maintain a profit with digital media over time, because they have a spending problem. You know this, I don't know why you're running this much defense for management's ineptitude.

Daddy T

That’s great Denim Dan, thanks for that bud

Evan Westendorf

I have a genuine question for those that claim that physical going away means that Sony is going to offer less/no sales and jack up the price of games because of lack of competition and a closed ecosystem: Do you feel that Xbox and Steam existing as competing digital marketplaces simply dont matter? The majority of profits Sony makes on games comes from 3rd party. 3rd party publishers set the prices for their games, not Sony, as well as sale prices. The price for those 3rd party games wouldnt go up on Sonys platform alone, right? Are we speakiny purely about price jumps on Sony 1st party games? Wouldnt it be very easy for other marketplaces to make Sony look like a raw deal if they just...offered sales where Sony isnt? Im just having a tough time understanding how all the doom and gloom actually comes to pass in a practical way. If someone is willing to spell it out plainly for me, id appreciate it.

Haru Discourse

Yes, physical game retailers often put games on sale irrespective of the PlayStation digital store, so not having that option would inherently mean there are less sales. I recently bought Elden Ring Nightreign on Amazon physically for half the price as it was on the PlayStation store at the time. Without the option to buy physically, this deal would not exist.

Evan Westendorf

Yes, getting rid of physical sales would mean getting rid of some sales by the virtue of just not having physical sales. But in your example, youre speaking of just one instance where you found a physical copy for cheaper than on offer on PlayStation at THAT moment. But Nightreign has been on sale on digital before. Finding a physical deal when there was no digital deal when you were looking, doesnt mean that there hasnt been/wont be a sale on that same game digitally at some point, no? If Sony is really going this "no sales, raise prices" route, are we assuming other platforms like Steam and Xbox are going to do the same? Do we think Steam Sales are just done forever after this? Because wouldnt it then be a really easy victory for other marketplaces to just...hold sales and keep their games the same price, and flaunt how theyre the cheaper platform? Seems like the easiest layup for the competition ever. Wouldnt Sony then have to keep prices competitive and also hold sales, or risk losing the value argument to other platforms and therefore customers? And i may be mistaken, but im pretty sure were getting rid of discs, not "physical copies" at retail. Retailers are still going to offer keys in a box, meaning a physical good theyll still be able to discount to clear inventory, no?

Haru Discourse

To Colin’s question of if players should worry about a company’s financial health, I would say yes, but only to the extent that said company chasing financial success does not conflict with your enjoyment of their products. Seeing companies like Capcom and Falcom succeed financially by leaning into making games I love feels great as a fan, because it gives me confidence in the future of those kinds of games. Heck, watching Konami’s recent success is exciting not just because they are doing well financially, but because they are doing so by making great games again! In Sony’s case, I can’t in good conscience say I want them to succeed financially when they’ve clearly signaled that their future is in making games and consoles that aren’t for me anymore. I feel like me rooting for Sony to succeed on their current path would be akin to cheering on a band I like selling out and chasing mainstream money.

Haru Discourse

I never said that Nightreign has never been on a digital sale before. I was simply illustrating that physical copies do go on sale irrespective of the PlayStation store, and removing the option would quite literally mean there are less sales, which I believe is what you were asking about in your first comment. Not sure why you are asking if I think Steam Sales will go away, but I do agree that they offer competition. I will often check the Steam price when considering where to buy a game. As for the keys in a box thing, I’m not aware if this has been confirmed or not, so I suppose that remains to be seen.

Evan Westendorf

You said that without the physical good, that sale wouldnt have existed. Im saying that may be literally true - without that physical disc, that physical disc wouldn't have been on sale for you to buy. But that doesnt limit the possibility of that same deal being available at some time digitally, which I think is what a lot of people are claiming - games will go up in price, no more sales. Of course there will be less sales because there wont be physical discs to buy at retailers, but there will still be plenty of opportunity for people to buy games digitally on sale due to the digital marketplaces competing with one another. Thats also why i asked if you think Steam Sales will go away. Ive seen far too many people out there who say "say goodbye to sales!" because of "closed ecosystems" and "limited competition" like competition only exists between physical retailers and Sony, and not other digital marketplaces. So, sorry if I misinterpreted your point https://www.vgchartz.com/article/468628/sony-suggests-retailers-can-still-sell-a-code-in-the-box-after-end-of-physical-game-discs/ This article would seem to suggest that "physical" very much is not dead. Retailers will still have a box with a "game" in it (as a code in a box). I dont see any reason why retailers wouldnt continue to have to offer deals on these physical goods to clear through stock, like they always have.

Bisexual Lighting Rigger

wtf are you even on about? Matty plays games on everything. He is allowed to enjoy gaming on PS5, Xbox and PC. Unless there is some official metric that says you are only allowed to care about 2 of the 3 platforms but I've never seen that. Also I bet Matty has more physical games on PS5 than 99% of us so if anyone is allowed to have takes on this subject, its him.

Austin Evans

Surprised the guy who had to use his back channel friends at Sony to get control of his PlayStation account somehow wants to defend Sony and they’re awful business practices. That will most likely affect the little guy who has no way of getting their digital library back if the same thing happened to them.

Musty

I never said he isn’t allowed to enjoy or even play on PS5, you’re just ignoring what I’ve said. My question is how this affects him as much as it does if it’s not his main platform. He has 3 other options that are not providing physical games to him. He also says he doesn’t trust Sony with his digital library. So my point being again is this, It’s not his main platform and he doesn’t trust Sony but he wants them to make physical games for him as an option in case he decides he wants them. To me that makes no sense, I would understand it way more if he only bought physical games for his PS5 and it was the only way he played games but he isn’t that person.

Jose

It's not like it is the biggest issue in the industry or anything.

Big Devin Energy

Digital 1 Physical 0. There was not a single argument made for physical being necessary on this podcast. Lol

Big Devin Energy

It’s true though. There were no cogent arguments on the physical side here at all. It wasn’t Colin vs Matty here. lol

KYisLife

1:41:30 Colin articulated what we all feel: there is something wrong with PS right now and the disc decision is a symptom, not the cause.

Bisexual Lighting Rigger

"To me that makes no sense, I would understand it way more if he only bought physical games for his PS5 and it was the only way he played games but he isn’t that person." Nobody is that person bro... are you saying that nobody can be upset unless you are 100% physical? Also news flash I don't think Colin trusts Sony these days either. Who does after what has happened recently? People have been collecting physical games for 40 years. I have physical games from Nintendo, Playstation, Xbox, Sega and PC big box games. its not the platform its physical games of all kinds. Lots of people play games on all platforms and don't have some blind allegiance to one or the other. What you are implying is some pathetically shallow console war argument. People who have every platform do NOT think like this. So who gives a flying fuck if it isn't his main platform?

Musty

Honestly dude you’re answering questions for someone else, I would love to know what Matty thinks and not your opinion on why he cares. But I’ll address my points again because you have blinders on and can’t comprehend what I’m saying. I have never said someone has to be a 100% physical to be upset, I said I would understand it way more, why? Because it would literally mean someone who is all physical then has to migrate from Sony to a different platform or go all digital, that’s a big financial decision at the moment for anyone to make. My point about Matty not trusting Sony is why does he want a company that he doesn’t trust to make physical games for him. It has nothing to do with Colin’s trust or not for Sony. Can you answer that for him? I doubt it and he’s never addressed this. You then go on to say how many games you have in your own collection, that’s all great so do I, and I will still have my collection they’re not taking away the stuff we have bought but again it doesn’t answer why ‘Matty wants Sony to make physical games still’ for a console manufacturer he doesn’t trust and in his own words has accidentally blacked out PS5 for months as he wasn’t using the platform. Your last paragraph actually again doesn’t make sense because if you play on every platform then why do you still need ‘Sony’ to make physical games for you.

Bisexual Lighting Rigger

He is a fan of Playstation and has been for decades and he loves physical games. They are stopping physical games... I just cant fathom what kind of answer you think he would give you? You are so hung up on the "trust" thing. It is possible to not trust something but expect things from them. Most of us have no trust in our government, that doesn't mean we don't want things from them.

Daniel

I wouldn’t say it’s the biggest issue - layoffs as a result of acquisitions and consolidations, studio and team mismanagement, misconduct, protracted development cycles and ballooning budgets in the AAA are all bigger problems affecting the industry in irreparable ways. However, this physical media issue is one people are being the loudest about and it is one that enthusiasts (myself included) are passionate about

Musty

I disagree with your opinion but I do have to say I like Matty I’m just scrutinising his take on this. The government argument doesn’t make sense because usually you don’t have another option with games you do. Yet the narrative is that this is bad for everyone I just don’t see how it’s bad if you’re an Xbox player or Nintendo player or you play on steam.

Bogey

I love all the shows the way they are, but I gotta say…a Colin and Matty hosted show would be so good. They play so well off each other. Maybe like a retro gaming or general gaming show

Supes

well put. My left brain can recognize that Sony needs to make a profit as a business, but my right brain doesn't particularly care—the whole reason I got into this hobby in the first place was because games spoke to me on that right-brain, artistic/emotional level. If that resonance is no longer there, then I have no incentive to care about their success. that said, it's also interesting how with certain publishers I'm willing to tolerate certain clearly profit-driven decisions because of how much I like their games. Appropriately enough (given your name/PFP lol), Sega/Atlus is a good example—they've been known to be kinda money-grubby with the Persona series over the years (releasing "enhanced" editions years later, having Persona 5 Royal be entirely separate SKUs on PS4 and PS5 so if you played on PS4 but want the 60fps PS5 version you literally have to buy the game twice, locking The Answer behind paid DLC for Persona 3 Reload, etc), but I like their games so much that I'm sort of willing to shrug and say "Whatever, Fatlus gonna fat, I'm still in." Everyone has a line that they draw, in other words, towards how much they're willing to tolerate a business doing kinda scuzzy things vs how much their products actually speak to them, and it feels like for a lot of people that line has been crossed w/ both Sony's recent first-party output and their business decisions.

Walk Forward Cutscene

It’s not that digital discounts will go away completely. Losing the physical option that is consistently lower-priced will result in fewer discounts and those discounts will be less generous. Yes, Steam/Xbox are a form of competition, but they already exist today. They aren’t new variables that are being added into the market.

Mr. Scott If You're Nasty

You guys are all missing the point. We just have to make sure Sony makes as much as possible. It's our duty to pay them large chunks of our money. We can't criticize their decisions as that could hurt them, our beloved.

Evan Westendorf

What of the fact that the physical option wont be going away, though. Sony is still going to provide codes in a box. Wont those things still be subject to the same discounts at retailers that discs are today, since they are essentially the same thing - a physical good taking up shelf space at a retailer, pre-purchased by the retailer, stock of which needs to be sold to create space for more stock on store shelves. Wont those things still be up for discount all the same?

Ryan

It’s worth noting that Colin has just decided that digital games subsidize physical. I’m not saying that’s impossible or there’s no truth to the matter but it’s about as officially confirmed at the Cassie drake uncharted game.

Michael Thew

Speak for yourself. Sorry this hobby is too expensive for you. Maybe get a deck of playing cards, solitaire is cheap. Please leave, there is no place for you here and that goes for the 23 other people in the world that thumbs up your commie post. But at the end of the day you don’t make money for Sony, they have made it clear that they rather you go to another platform and ruin that instead. I hope the prices keep going up, you people don’t deserve to be here

Stanley Stoopish

Digital isn't necessary either. Understand how this works?

Subeg

Nintendo can’t want out because tomadachi life physically has outsold all ps5/ps4 physical game sales combined in 1 quarter

Gal Sharpton

It seems like Mattys core argument is about how used games and their cheap pricing opened up doors to games. He would not have normally played as a kid. The 500 pound gorilla in the room is kids nowadays don’t give a shit about playing games that aren’t free or littered with micro transactions and skins. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

Gal Sharpton

Both things can be true. They are absolutely subsidizing physical games. And don’t forget the publisher is the one who decides the price of their games and whether or not they are on sale on the PSN.

Walk Forward Cutscene

Making the hobby more expensive is not going to help. It will only drive the existing audience away. Take a look at the American comic book industry if you want to see how that future looks.

Gal Sharpton

See this is a problem with gamers they want their cake and to eat it too. People complain about game prices, and then in the same breath complain about the mass layoffs. They complain about a boat animation being reused, but also want Games to stay the same price for 30 years and people not to lose their job. Price increase is not a video game exclusive problem take a look around. In my opinion, the most valid argument against digital only is the fact that Sony has a bad track record with security.

Stephen

Thank you! I brought this up on Reddit and previous episodes.

Walk Forward Cutscene

I don’t care about layoffs - most of the people who work at western AAA studios hate their audience. Re-using animations is fine but was more understandable when sequels only took 2-3 years to make

Ur Moms Favorite MilkMan

I say this with much respect, not everyone has friends in Sony or people they can reach out to when an account gets hacked/ attacked. Not everyone can pay full price for video games, many have the option to purchase at a lower price in the used market today. Most people are not in a place of convenience as people in the industry like yawl. Physical games have their benefits, it’s for the people man. It’s not just about financials but it’s about doing the right thing for consumers, giving them control and ownership. I just assumed that someone with the Gadsden flag would understand what corporate overreach can lead to.

Gooch Gobbler

So are people that buy ultimate editions and early access subsidizing normal digital sales? This makes no sense dude. Also shouts out to Michael for continuing to show his ass. #countryclubgaming

Kevin Cooper

The plural form of vinyl is vinyl...

Marco Maluf

Its funny when Colin states that there is nowhere to go, when it comes to digital market sony loses to pc and microsoft, pc because of the number of storefronts, you can buy from any store and play however you want and microsoft makes their console x pc crossover way more appealing than sony as a all digital machine, if there wont be any discs for playstation anymore then Ill stop on ps5 and make either xbox, switch or pc my mais console and it will be solving my backlog problema because there is plenty games unplayed even from ps4, I guess I will go backwards, and screw this all digital bs.