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Shogun: 107-108 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-01-28 13:00:04
Edited:
2026-01-07 00:43:33
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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Comments

Brazilian_Rebel

Can you guys add “Good Boys” to your comedy poll ??

Jeff K.

I cannot wait until next week. No, literally. Guys, drop episodes 9 and 10. I need them. (I forgot how damn good this show is and how well it executes its plot throughout the course of the season. Man, this show is so good and just gets better from one episode to the next.)

Mastervodo

Can't wait to get home and watch this with you two!

G B

My belief is Toranaga operated from a perceived "weakened" state all along which is kinda confirmed when: During a stick of time, when meeting with the madam, she rightfully called out his plan, which led to her being rewarded with a plot of land. He recklessly left his garrisons exposed which spies would relay that information back to the council, leading ochiba no kata to convince ishido to choose Toranaga's brother knowing Toranaga would seek his help. Toranaga rightfully sniffed it out, and played along, allowing himself to be insulted, look weak and accepting of defeat in front of all his men which leads to the second point: Toranaga mentions often the goshawk, even explaining to his son in an earlier episode about goshawk's being broken to the fist and with the proper influence would end up doing the hunting for you. With that in mind recall his treatment of his son, Yabushige and Blackthorne and you can see they're all unknowingly doing his bidding influenced by his behavior towards them. Blackthorne and his son Yoshi being denied and neglected and stripped of purpose for so long they both make short sighted irrational moves out of desperation and the perceived necessity of saving a weakened Toranaga. Knowing Omi and Yabushige are so desperate to live, and Yoshi so desperate to fight, not hard to believe Toranaga set the stage, and would make his next move based off of the irrational decision his surrender would force, a line of thinking which is kinda shown when: Hiromatsu, who wasn't "in" on the plan as he didn't know before hand, decided to commit seppuku if Toranaga didn't relent. Toranaga could've stopped this, but realized it would reveal his plan and decided instead to allow it to happen and adapt accordingly. Hiromatsu grew to understand it was a ploy the more Toranaga held true to his decision to let him die in the face of his disagreeing generals (also confirmed when he tells Buntaro to believe in his lord even when it looks like all is lost, further reinforcing the ruse by telling Toranaga "you do believe in a pointless death!"). Rewatch the scene, it all clicked when it seems the generals were ready to revolt. Hiromatsu told them to be quiet that it was between him and Toranaga, signaling to Toranaga that he is giving his life to keep them in line and further Toranaga's plans.

Philipp Roensch

Ok, I also did not see that coming. Just as I was thinking about what this show wants to say about honorable/purposeful death, we get the most random and the most planned one right after another. BTW, I would love maybe someone with more cultural insight to tell me, why the commitment to die for your lord was/is so high, even though earthquakes and dying of many things are recognized as prominent. Toranaga certainly plays a hard game to keep his ploy secret, I think he came to Hiromatsu's sacrifice after the rest were floating the ploy idea in the hallway. Just to make sure nobody thinks it. Still loving it, this show is cooking.

PDP1472

Ep 7 - 'It can't just keep getting grimmer...' Ep 8 - You were saying? The series loves giving us those emotional gut-punches. Also, have you given thought to adding a Kurosawa film on a poll? Shogun has awakened some nostalgia for them. Nearly any of them will do, but I'm partial to Ran(a visually stunning film) and Yojimbo/Sanjuro(they should be watched in turn).

Snuggelbum

Holy shit! Please release the last 2 episodes early! 🙏🙏

Jeff K.

No kidding. I'd kill for the final two. They're fucking epic.

Jeff K.

Yep, and when Buntaro asks his father to let him follow him into death, Hiromatsu says, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Don't lose faith in our lord even if it appears he's lost faith himself." The important word there is "appears." Hinting that it's an act.

Sumner Hayes

The Emmy was, indeed, for Best Grunting. It was fortuitous that Ted Lasso ended in 2023, otherwise Brett Goldstein (Roy Kent) would've presented formidable competition.

Bookwormy

Regarding the hairstyle, it's actually a special wig to make it look like that, similar to ones used in Kabuki! Even Anna, who plays Mariko, wore a wig.

Bookwormy

Also, George, your kitty was so cute, what's their name?

Opti_Frog

Unsurprisingly, there is a youtube video called Grunts of Yabushige. 😄

dys

I considered mentioning that, decided not to since they said they didn't even want to know the real history yet in case that was a spoiler.

Skyruff Creative

In the end George called it on the Englishman character. In the book, unlike the TV series, it is mostly told from the Englishman's perspective. You, as the reader, start the book thinking it's a Marco Polo like tale of an Englishman's adventures in Japan. Half-way through, you start to understand that the book is about something very important that occurred in Japan as witnessed by the Englishman. This version of the TV series changed the narrative so that the Englishman is our way into the tale, but is gradually less and less important.

MacGuffinStuff

If I remember correctly from my little Samurai class in college, the beheading was because it is obviously extremely painful to disembowel yourself, so the idea is you behead the individual before they cry out in pain, thus they have an honorable death. And to do the beheading was considered being honored by the beheaded.

dys

Yeah but knowing that Edo becomes Tokyo and knowing what Tokyo means in Japanese gives you a clue where things are headed

Sergio Meira

Isn't it interesting to watch Nagakado-sama get all firey and revengey, raised katana in front of Saeki-sama... just to slip and fall so that his head hits a stone and he dies? "Where's the beauty in this?" says Saeki-sama. Beauty... like those Japanese stone gardens? You're looking for beauty? I feel like writing him a haiku. "Death is no beauty / Death is to die, live no more / beauty is but a dream." If he was really trying to see some symmetry and proportion, he could imagine that Nagakado-sama's sudden death was as random as his killng Nebara Jōzen, and starting the whole war, just because of the influence of others. Or you might compare it to that earthquake that decimated Toranaga's army and almost killed Toranaga-sama himself. Also unexpected. What did Mariko-sama say once? "We live, we die. We control little in-between." If you can spare some little space in your heart, think of Nagakado-sama, whose fault it was to be too big for his breeches. To be a little child in a world of cunning adults.

Sergio Meira

It is also interesting, as we see in Ep. 8, how John's participation becomes less and less important to what's happening. He's still our European perspective character, but his capacity to influence events seems to dwindle; he becomes more like an observer. If you want, think about the intro. The ship sailing through the beautiful Japanese garden, wrecking it, is certainly European... but the crest in the sails is not European. It is Toranaga-sama's. I guess at this point I started to realize that this show was much less about John Blackthorn's influence or destiny, and much more about observing history unfold... and taking in a completely new culture while you're at it. Like sitting in a Japanese garden and letting it slowly enter your soul.

Sergio Meira

And then we get to that wonderfully sad scene between Mariko-sama and her husband Buntaro. To me, it becomes clear that Buntaro is not a savage -- not above wife-beating, but in those centuries, that probably was expected of him... All that anger at Mariko-sama's family, was it because they were "traitors" and all? After that scene, I thought, this is because (as we saw when she was preparing to marry him, in a flashback scene in a previous episode) she never actually loved him. She married him because her father wanted to protect her, to spare her life, hoping she could later on attain some happiness. But she was never interested in Buntaro. He, on the other hand... fell head over heels for her. But no matter what he did, the ice wouldn't melt... and like many a person before, when faced with the impossibility of getting the love he craved, he became bitter and angry. While preparing the tea, Buntaro showed a little of his inner self. He revealed some of his 'third heart', opened a door in his '7-fold wall'. But Mariko-sama wouldn't hear any of it. Also angry and desiring revenge -- he did beat the hell out of her, after all -- she smashed and crushed every vulnerable bit of himself that he dared expose. And we're left with this sad picture of the crying samurai. (We talk about crying clowns -- the link between comedy and sadness. But here we have a more Japanese symbol maybe, the crying samurai, who knows he will never have what he craves... no matter how heroic he is.) Despite his unprovoked and detestable violence, I cannot suppress a little sympathy for Buntaro -- Toda Hirokatsu -- the man who will die forever unloved. If you judge him for his violent behavior, please consider that he certainly was appropriately punished.

Khan1001

Cant wait till Tuesday!, THE NEXT EPISODE OMG!!! Also, a little detail you missed, just before Hiromatsu committed seppuku, his son Buntaro wanted to follow him in death but his father said ''No you must live'' but he also says ''Now you know what it feels like to be denied'' referring to Mariko, as Buntaro has denied her all these years, Mariko has wanted to follow her late father into death for so long and now Buntaro knows exactly how she feels. The show has done a great job of making you feel sympathy for Buntaro, the tea drinking scene with Mariko was very impactful and then Buntaro having to second his father was so brutal, the actor has done an amazing job with his complex character as have all the cast, this show didn't win all those Emmy's and Golden Globes for nothing!

Matthew

To allude to what George was saying earlier about beheadings and executions/executioners in history: It was more common to botch a beheading than to do it right. We have a beautiful book called The Diaries of Chales-Henri Sanson who was an executioner in France in the late 1700s. He goes into great detail and accounts some of the less explored angles of executions in History. It was a scary domino effect- As someone was marked for death, they would become ostracised and marked, the only person who was leagally allowed to mix with the condemed man was his executioner - and that mixing was expected, almost like giving a little bit of humanity before the deed was done. He (and other executioners would walk with the condemned victim, speak with them, play games and even share a final meal before the deed was done. He would drink quite heavily before and after his job not because he enjoyed it but because he physically couldnt sleep if he wasnt nearly black out drunk, he quotes " I have executed more man than I dare count. Each soul weighed on me as though it were the first" and another sad account when a man called Duvaulle started shaking before he was about to be beheaded and asked Sanson "will it hurt sir?" and Sanson, drunk and teary-eyed answered "Not for long". There are many accounts and experiences from his diaries, he was also the executioner for Mary Antoinette and King Louis XVI and both of these executions hurt him in different ways. The executioner became a social outcast much like the condemned, forced to live outside the city, wear very recognisiable clothes and wouldnt be allowed to mix with regular civilians without special dispensation, the life was very hard, To summarise the domino effect - The executioner was the only friend of a condemned man. Executioners frequently turned to heavy alcoholism just to cope. Being drunk regularly made a quick death into a horrid bloody spectacle. The public wanted "automated" death to remove human error such as hanging or stretching or drowning -meaning fewer and fewer executioners got much needed experience - which then made their next execution even worse. Thus the humanitarian invention of the guilitone which made executions standardized and Sanson was a massive supporter of the invention and couldnt wait to hang up his axe, his son spoke about the toll it took on his father shortly before he died - "I have seen my father sit in silence, staring at his hands, as if they had been dipped in the blood of all France" Give it a read, its a morbid eye opener.

Jeff K.

Just here to say I cannot fucking wait for Crimson Sky in approximately eight hours.

probablyKoi

spoiler comment spoiler comment spoiler comment I think if it is the case that Hiromatsu and Toranaga didn't mutually decide for things to go exactly as they did and Hiromatsu offered himself at the last second it was likely a "hey, you need to be sure you have the stomach for this play, I'm going to make damn sure you're all in because you're not going to dishonour the memory of your best friend by backing out like you might some random general".